Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? Thanks a bunch, -Mick -- Lose the "antispam_" from my email address to reply |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
"Mick F. Cantarella" wrote in message
... Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? This is way more trouble than it's worth and can lead to bad feelings and bad word of mouth for your studio if things don't go right. I would avoid doing that at all costs!!! The reasoning being that most bands that are willing to give up some points and those that are pretty much broke and don't have any kind of record contract at all. If they had a record contract with a decent company, they would have a recording budget and their own points are pretty small to begin with so they wouldn't be able to afford to give a few to a studio, especially if they have a producer who is also taking some of their points. Even if you decide to go ahead with this with a band that's almost broke and has no record label, you all have to spend time and money to get a proper contract drawn up and reviewed. If you don't, you are just asking for more trouble and hard feelings. Then, there is the issue of accounting and auditing.... do you really trust a bunch of musicians to keep track of how many CDs they sold at shows and local stores and on the internet? If you try to question their accounting or ask to see their records, then you start to get into an adversarial situation which can end up hurting your studio reputation in the long run. Finally, just working out the numbers should be enough to convince you that's it not worth it. Figure out how many points they would be willing to give you and then figure out how many CDs they would have to sell to make back the money you would have got from the studio time in the first place if you didn't do a discounted spec deal. Chances are that number is going to be in the thousands at least! I couldn't tell you a percentage, but the majority of bands with no money that somehow scrap together and make a CD and then have 1000 of them manufactured can never even sell that first 1000 and end up giving most of them away to friends and family and anyone else who will take them (or they end up in a closet forever). If you're still not convinced, here's some personal (long and detailed) experience for you. I had a couple of clients come in who had started their own little rap label. There was a guy who was the producer who was very good at doing the music and working with the rap artists, and then there was a woman who was going to handle the street promotion and such. They had 4 o 5 rappers already signed to their little label and had been working with them for a while and had all the beats/music ready. They first hired me and my small production studio to record for them, which I did at my normal hourly rate for a while. It wasn't too long before they ran out of money, so they just put on a 2 song EP CD (with a few alternate mixes) of their strongest material. A local radio station latched onto it and played it a few times, and they started generating a buzz. The radio DJ even hooked them up with a new startup indy label founded by a fairly big time rapper/DJ from a while back, and they actually received some offers to a small record contract just for that single. Even though the bigger guys kept calling and trying to negotiate something, the local guys turned them down thinking they could do better (probably their first mistake... should have got their foot in the door when they had the chance, but I'm getting ahead). Anyway, these guys were pretty professional and serious... moreso than any other artists I had worked with up to that time. They had a business plan and a lot of great ideas, and the music and rappers were all actually very good! Unfortunately, they had run out of cash. I was pretty new to running my own studio at the time (although I had worked for several years at a major recording studio in the area), and I really liked these guys and their music! Even though I was advised against it, I decided to do a spec deal with these guys and give them studio time for free to finish up the full CD. That was probably my first mistake. The second mistake was not quantifying how much time that would involve. I left it open ended as far as studio time and gave myself a fairly big chunk of the sales. They ended up taking almost a year to finish up the CD and finally get it out (since they were getting time for free they took way too much time working on everything, plus we could only work a day or two every week since I had to fit them in around paying clients). By the time the CD was released, the buzz from the single had faded, and they had to start pretty much all over again. But, they still managed to generate some more buzz, and they even performed live on the Jenny Jones show (got flown out first class from Chicago and put up in nice accomodations, all for free), and also performed at one of the big summer festivals put on by the local radio station and featuring many major label rap and hip hop artists. Still, they had no distribution and were just trying to sell online and through local record stores on cosignment (they drove all over the area delivering these by hand). They were so broked and desperate that even though they made a few sales here and there, they neglected to pay me and used the money to pay their own bills, etc.... that ended up causing some conflicts and bad feelings when I would try to collect... it wasn't much money (maybe only a few hundred sales), so it wasn't worth going to court over (which would have cost much more and they had no money to collect anyway). There's more to the story, but you get the idea. I had worked with these guys for several years and considered them good friends, but then it all went bad and we didn't even talk for almost two years. We have since worked things out and regained some of that friendship, but I no longer do spec deals for ANYONE. NEVER AGAIN! It's NEVER worth it!!! The major studio I used to work at was owned (but not operated or even managed) by a trust fund guy who had plenty of money. He had ventured into lots of different things himself. Since the studio was constantly losing money (he made the mistake of doing a big million dollar build out in a warehouse/office in the middle of a prime Microsoft/Nintendo office park, so his lease just kept getting jacked up all the time and there is too much construction in there to simply move) he decided to try to start their own label. They found a really great band that had a big buzz going and already some interest from some smaller labels, and they did a deal with them and recorded them at the big studio and put out the CD. I don't know all the details other than that deal didn't work out either and they didn't make any money off of it. I think every studio owner has thought about it or tried it at one point or another, and I have yet to hear of any big success stories from any kind of spec deal. I'm sure there are probably a few out there, but the chances of it working out in a good way are about as much as winning the lottery! If you've got free time that you need to fill up, then instead of giving it away to people from whom you'll probably never see a cent, try coming up with some of your own products that you can sell instead and be in complete control of. I started doing that myself and am now shifting more and more into being a private production company putting out products for specific markets, and I find that it's a MUCH better investment for my time and leads to a better return than I could ever hope for from most bands/artists. I still like working with bands/artists, but I won't do it on spec ever again! Good luck! Hope this helps! Steve -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ DBAR Productions & MusicTECH - Seattle http://www.dbar-productions.com Check out Music-And-Technology.com http://www.music-and-technology.com FREE Musicians' Classifieds at: http://www.freemusiciansclassifieds.com Download Loops & Samples at LoopLibrary.com! http://www.looplibrary.com Producers/Composers Wanted! http://www.netmusiclibrary.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Artie Ripp (yes real name) had a studio and a guy named Billy Joel. Had
aproduction deal and even after the huge hits they settled and Artie still got 25 cents a record. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Two small success stories:
1) The first record I ever put out was on spec, with me getting 25% ownership. I made back, over time, about the same as I would have from the original sessions -- BUT it was done on a shoestring, direct to two-track, in two long weekends, on location after midnight, and there was minimal editing involved -- basically leadering complete takes together. So I wouldn't have made much billing it hourly either. 2) Back in 1966 a fellow named Strachwitz cut a 45 for a jug-band player named McDonald of an antiwar song he'd written (Viet Nam was at its worst peak) in exchange for the copyright. The deal was a handshake, nothing written. The song was "Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die Rag", and when McDonald, now morphed into Country Joe (and the Fish), sang the song at Woodstock and it made it into the movie, Strachwitz stood to make a pile of money. And since Country Joe was an honest man, he made good on the handshake deal, and Strachwitz turned his hobby-label, Arhoolie, into a going concern. (Country Joe collected performer's royalties, so he didn't starve either.) But those are both very exceptional situations; in general, doing stuff on spec is, as others have said, an inviation to problems and heartache. Peace, Paul |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Actually, lots of studios have invested in doing just this, but they are the
ones finding the talent and coming up with the producers, the song list, the musicians, etc. In other words, this is what the recording companies did in the first place because they held all the cards. They still charged studio rates and it came out of any advance, but you've not hit upon anything new. The difference is the level at which you are working. If you accept points in liew of money, then who actually promotes the recordings? If it's somebody else, then you don't know if they are doing their jobs, reporting the income correctly, or just jerking you around. The first thing to think about is your studio. A) would the product actually represent what you can do and sound good enough for people to purchase? B) are these guys just jerking you around, looking for a cheap recording and will gladly leave you in a lurch once they have the CD in hand? C) are they willing to actively promote the CD and will they account for every sale? If you have to play manager in order to get the ability to have a true accounting of their sales, is that worth it to you? Is the band really worth it or just another band that has pork fat's chance in hell of congealing into a saleable property? If you go through an entire Pros/Cons list of all the thoughts you've had about doing such a project, I'm absolutely certain that you'll come up with about a 10:1 ratio of Cons to Pros, which on paper say NO, Don't Do It. But then you have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning. I often wonder about all those A&R guys that rejected the Beatles, but since they never made it into history, we'll never know. It's your time and your equipment. You have to decide if the group is worth the effort and can you trust them and a whole bunch of other things. Again, once you look at such a thought in the light of day the answer is that you probably had a pretty good night but should forget the possibilities and focus on realities. After all, baby may need a new pair of shoes WAAAYYYYY before you see any money from such an endeavor. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio 301-585-4681 "Mick F. Cantarella" wrote in message ... Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? Thanks a bunch, -Mick -- Lose the "antispam_" from my email address to reply |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Well, I think probably it's a little more prevalent today in the boy band
and Britney a-likes since mostly it's producers taking on the responsibility to find them, bring them along, provide the songs, provide the tracks they sing to and overall manage the situation from start to finish, but yes, I'd say that as someone who's working in a small/medium environment, it's not likely to happen. Actually, I'd call it philanthropy more than business, but then Barry Gordy got started by finding acts and doing the work himself. Bob probably has a whole lot of stories about those acts, and he's been a proponent of starting one's own record company and doing the basics just like Gordy did, so I guess it depends on one's abilities and stick-to-it-tiveness. But nobody hitches a ride on a star anymore. Stars are created and it takes tons of work to do it. The studio is just a PLACE that the process begins, but really only a moment in the "star's" life. If a star is born at someone's studio, that studio will be lucky to see the bucks again unless they are REAL GOOD at picking the next big thing to come along. Today it's more about the money it costs to sell someone than the recording to show someone's chops. In other words, it's not a real working environment from which to build a basis of trust. Just recording/mixing a group has absolutely nothing to do with whether they will go anywhere, and if they don't, you've bitten the bullet. But if one has the propensity to do the work, keep the talent in line, and go for the brass ring, then it's that person's abilities or failings that will make or break the group. Why does everything come back to Mixerman's Chronicles? Making the wild hair assumption that two CDs down the road, with reasonable regional sales of a "spec'd" CD, what happens when the band has played 250 dates together night after night to promote the album? Remember, the CD sales go up with a decent tour, but, like Dave Mason standing on stage all coked out, it doesn't do a bit of good when the crowd leaves not wanting to buy a CD and actually couldn't care less about seeing the band again ever. The last sentence describes one hell of a lot of work just to get one's money back. If one has the conjones to do the job and the band/artist is good enough, the rewards can be very great indeed. But the number of times it has happened is probably contained on both your hands and your toes. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio 301-585-4681 "P Stamler" wrote in message ... Two small success stories: 1) The first record I ever put out was on spec, with me getting 25% ownership. I made back, over time, about the same as I would have from the original sessions -- BUT it was done on a shoestring, direct to two-track, in two long weekends, on location after midnight, and there was minimal editing involved -- basically leadering complete takes together. So I wouldn't have made much billing it hourly either. 2) Back in 1966 a fellow named Strachwitz cut a 45 for a jug-band player named McDonald of an antiwar song he'd written (Viet Nam was at its worst peak) in exchange for the copyright. The deal was a handshake, nothing written. The song was "Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die Rag", and when McDonald, now morphed into Country Joe (and the Fish), sang the song at Woodstock and it made it into the movie, Strachwitz stood to make a pile of money. And since Country Joe was an honest man, he made good on the handshake deal, and Strachwitz turned his hobby-label, Arhoolie, into a going concern. (Country Joe collected performer's royalties, so he didn't starve either.) But those are both very exceptional situations; in general, doing stuff on spec is, as others have said, an inviation to problems and heartache. Peace, Paul |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? Someone once told me what spec really means. Don't spec to get paid. YMMV. --- -Jay Kahrs Owner - Chief Engineer Mad Moose Recording Inc. Morris Plains, NJ http://www.madmooserecording.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Mick F. Cantarella wrote:
What usually happens here? You work for nothing. -- hank alrich * secret mountain audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose" |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
Mick F. Cantarella wrote: What usually happens here? You work for nothing. Or less. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Mick F. Cantarella wrote:
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? What usually happens is that you lose money, but ask your lawyer to check over the contract that the label will bring you. Points are nice, but don't take them in lieu of actual money. I'll take points if it's a group I really believe in, that I feel needs to get more recognition, but with the expectation that I am basically working for free. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Points instead of cash for studio rate?
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy Iım considering doing this. Are there contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here? I'd have to agree with the first reply and say not to do. Have you been reading the newspapers? There's always some lawsuit going on about how someone was cheated out of the profits. I can understand your feelings though, things may not be as busy as you'd like them to be but I wouldn't do it! I have to tell someone right now that I won't be listing their Ebay item for them - why? - well because they don't want to pay anything upfront and they want to hold their item until it gets sold - which means I'll have to trek back and forth with them and it is not worth the headache! Rose *************************************** "Give A ShoutOut To The World!" Put Your Voice Message Online at: The ShoutOut Page http://members.aol.com/Roseb441702/shoutout.htm |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Where are those Wascally Weapons of Mass Destwuction??? | Audio Opinions | |||
Want an audio system but dont have the cash? get the cash find out how | General | |||
Want a new car audio system but dont have the cash? get cash now find out how | Car Audio |