[Mark A]

The real issue at Kyoto (which the media will not explain to Americans) is
that there are basically two choices:

1. Decrease the rate of increase in CO2 emissions with energy conservation,
or
2. Reduce CO2 emissions by converting to nuclear power plants

The only way the Europeans and Japanese are able to even think about
implementing the Kyoto accord is because they have made a wholesale switch
to nuclear energy. During the last 30 years there have been hundreds of new
nuclear power plants built (most notably in countries like France and
Japan), while none (zero) have been built in the US.

But the environmentalists in the US who insist we must comply with Kyoto are
the same ones who oppose nuclear power plants. This is the hypocrisy.

The Kyoto treaty has nothing to do with whether one believes in global
warming. It has to do with whether one believes in nuclear energy for the
primary means to produce electricity.

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

The real issue at Kyoto (which the media will not explain to Americans) is
that there are basically two choices:

1. Decrease the rate of increase in CO2 emissions with energy conservation,
or

Decreasing the rate of increase of atmospheric CO2 won't help us at all if the
AGWists are right.


2. Reduce CO2 emissions by converting to nuclear power plants

Would have to be a massive conversion. Certainly tinkering at the edges with
windpower and solar is a drop in the ocean and near worthless.


The only way the Europeans and Japanese are able to even think about
implementing the Kyoto accord is because they have made a wholesale switch
to nuclear energy.

I agree.


During the last 30 years there have been hundreds of new
nuclear power plants built (most notably in countries like France and
Japan), while none (zero) have been built in the US.

Finland is building one right now AIUI. Some countries are starting to think
about re-evalauting their bans on nuclear. Interestingly Italian energy company
(damn I forget the name now) is investing in new French nuclear generation since
nuclear plants are banned in Italy itself !

Framatome (Areva as it is now) is probably the leader reactor builder worldwide
in fact.


But the environmentalists in the US who insist we must comply with Kyoto are
the same ones who oppose nuclear power plants. This is the hypocrisy.

The Kyoto treaty has nothing to do with whether one believes in global
warming. It has to do with whether one believes in nuclear energy for the
primary means to produce electricity.

I'm sure that wasn't the intent of those drafting it.

Graham

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
The Kyoto treaty has nothing to do with whether one believes in global
warming. It has to do with whether one believes in nuclear energy for the
primary means to produce electricity.

I'm sure that wasn't the intent of those drafting it.

Graham

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy. People in France are suffering from very high unemployment and they
are rioting in the streets over jobs and economic issues. French exports
(and jobs) are dwindling due to the strong Euro and weak US Dollar. The
French government is not naive about these issues, nor are they benevolent
about their desire to improve their own economy at the expense of the US.
The do intend to use Kyoto to accomplish that.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Dec 14, 11:45 am, "Mark A" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message

...

The Kyoto treaty has nothing to do with whether one believes in global
warming. It has to do with whether one believes in nuclear energy for the
primary means to produce electricity.

I'm sure that wasn't the intent of those drafting it.

Graham

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy. People in France are suffering from very high unemployment and they
are rioting in the streets over jobs and economic issues. French exports
(and jobs) are dwindling due to the strong Euro and weak US Dollar. The
French government is not naive about these issues, nor are they benevolent
about their desire to improve their own economy at the expense of the US.
The do intend to use Kyoto to accomplish that.

This is the biggest conspiracy in like, forever! And it's all the
French!

This is even bigger than the cover up about who actually killed JFK.

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

People in France are suffering from very high unemployment and they
are rioting in the streets over jobs and economic issues.

Not actually true. I guess you must be American. Your news media is hardly
reknowned for accurate reporting of overseas issues.

You're thinking I suspect of young French Muslim kids who are suffering from
certain 'social exclsusion' issues allegedly. How much of this might be
self-impsoed is probably worthy of debate in its own right.

The general French population is doing OK.

Unemployment in France at 8% is higher than the USA at 4.7% but hardly 'very
high'.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy.

I rather think NOT.

France has had a deep commitment to nuclear electricity for many decades.
They're simply reaping the benefits of staying the path.

Silly USA for giving up on nuclear. You're also 'reaping the benefits' of your
actions.

Graham

[George M. Middius]

Mark A said:

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy.

Oh, right. That was their motivation. Uh-huh. Sure. Absolutely.

[Mark A]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...


Mark A said:

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in
nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy.

Oh, right. That was their motivation. Uh-huh. Sure. Absolutely.

Yes. If you prefer to put it in a more benign light, the French have spent
billions on nuclear energy and they expect to reap the rewards for that.

If they were seriously interested in only environmental issues, do you think
they would have built so many nuclear power plants, and via Kyoto,
encouraging everyone else to do the same?

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Not actually true. I guess you must be American. Your news media is hardly
reknowned for accurate reporting of overseas issues.

You're thinking I suspect of young French Muslim kids who are suffering
from
certain 'social exclsusion' issues allegedly. How much of this might be
self-impsoed is probably worthy of debate in its own right.

The general French population is doing OK.

Unemployment in France at 8% is higher than the USA at 4.7% but hardly
'very
high'.

Graham

In general the French are OK? You must be kidding me if you think 8%
unemployment is not high.

Yes the Muslims are rioting, but so are the students and socialists who want
guaranteed jobs for life. I guess your news media doesn't tell you what is
going on in France.

[Mark A]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
Yeah; sure; whatever you say. Oh, you majored in burger flippin' at Jerk
in
the Box. I see that you're an expert.

No I majored in political science with an emphasis in foreign relations. All
nations act in their self interest, all of the time. France is hardly an
exception.

This Kyoto smokescreen about "environmental concerns" should be transparent
to anyone with brains. Proliferating the earth with nuclear power plants is
not exactly what most environmentalists would call a good idea. There is no
way anyone can achieve the Kyoto reductions without nuclear power plants.

[George M. Middius]

Mark A said:

Oh, right. That was their motivation. Uh-huh. Sure. Absolutely.

Yes. If you prefer to put it in a more benign light, the French have spent
billions on nuclear energy and they expect to reap the rewards for that.

Congratulations on remembering to take your anti-psychotic meds.

If they were seriously interested in only environmental issues, do you think
they would have built so many nuclear power plants, and via Kyoto,
encouraging everyone else to do the same?

Uh-oh. It's wearing off already.

[George M. Middius]

Mark A said:

No I majored in political science with an emphasis in foreign relations. All

I think you majored in Redneck Jingoism with an emphasis in Paranoid
Raving.

nations act in their self interest, all of the time. France is hardly an
exception.

A non-psychotic political scientist might conceive that one country's
"self interest" is not necessarily congruent with a plan to undercut
some other country's economy. Happy trails, crazy man.

[Mark A]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...
If they were seriously interested in only environmental issues, do you
think
they would have built so many nuclear power plants, and via Kyoto,
encouraging everyone else to do the same?

Uh-oh. It's wearing off already.

Personally, I have nothing against nuclear power plants, but I have never
met an environmentalist who agreed.

[Mark A]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...
A non-psychotic political scientist might conceive that one country's
"self interest" is not necessarily congruent with a plan to undercut
some other country's economy. Happy trails, crazy man.

I don't know about "one country's self interest" but in the case of France
it is definitely the case.

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Mark A" wrote in message
. ..
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
Yeah; sure; whatever you say. Oh, you majored in burger flippin' at Jerk
in
the Box. I see that you're an expert.

No I majored in political science with an emphasis in foreign relations.
All nations act in their self interest, all of the time. France is hardly
an exception.

**True. France is not trying to destroy the US economy. The French
government is rightly concerned about the effects of global warming. Global
warming will cause problems for France (and everyone else).


This Kyoto smokescreen about "environmental concerns" should be
transparent to anyone with brains. Proliferating the earth with nuclear
power plants is not exactly what most environmentalists would call a good
idea. There is no way anyone can achieve the Kyoto reductions without
nuclear power plants.

**Nonsense. Building nukes is one, short term, solution. There are other,
more prosaic, practical and environmentally benign methods.

Trevor Wilson

[dizzy]

Mark A wrote:

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy. People in France are suffering from very high unemployment and they
are rioting in the streets over jobs and economic issues. French exports
(and jobs) are dwindling due to the strong Euro and weak US Dollar. The
French government is not naive about these issues, nor are they benevolent
about their desire to improve their own economy at the expense of the US.
The do intend to use Kyoto to accomplish that.

Kook.

[Mark A]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...
**True. France is not trying to destroy the US economy. The French
government is rightly concerned about the effects of global warming.
Global warming will cause problems for France (and everyone else).

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy else France. Pretty much the
same as every other country in the world. Maybe destroy is the wrong word,
perhaps "beat the hell out of them" is a better description.

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

"George M. Middius" wrote
Mark A said:

It was the intent of certain nations who have heavily invested in
nuclear,
notably France, to gain economic advantage over the US by damaging the US
economy.

Oh, right. That was their motivation. Uh-huh. Sure. Absolutely.

Yes. If you prefer to put it in a more benign light, the French have spent
billions on nuclear energy and they expect to reap the rewards for that.

A sensible business decision as it turns out.

The main reason for it though AIUI was France's relative shortage of domestic
fossil fuel resources.

Graham

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Mark A" wrote in message
. ..
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...
**True. France is not trying to destroy the US economy. The French
government is rightly concerned about the effects of global warming.
Global warming will cause problems for France (and everyone else).

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy else France. Pretty much
the same as every other country in the world. Maybe destroy is the wrong
word, perhaps "beat the hell out of them" is a better description.

**Nonsense.

Trevor Wilson

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Not actually true. I guess you must be American. Your news media is hardly
reknowned for accurate reporting of overseas issues.

You're thinking I suspect of young French Muslim kids who are suffering
from certain 'social exclsusion' issues allegedly. How much of this might be

self-impsoed is probably worthy of debate in its own right.

The general French population is doing OK.

Unemployment in France at 8% is higher than the USA at 4.7% but hardly
'very high'.


In general the French are OK? You must be kidding me if you think 8%
unemployment is not high.

You said VERY high. I certainly don't think 8% is VERY high.


Yes the Muslims are rioting, but so are the students and socialists who want
guaranteed jobs for life. I guess your news media doesn't tell you what is
going on in France.

The French have a national trait of demonstrating at the drop of a hat. That
doesn't mean their society is about to fall apart, it's simply what they do.
Quality of life in France is excellent.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

Proliferating the earth

I think you need to consult a dictionary about usage there old chap.


with nuclear power plants is not exactly what most environmentalists would
call a good idea.

Are you trying to suggest that 'what most environmentalist think are good ideas'
should be our benchmark !! ??

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote

If they were seriously interested in only environmental issues, do you
think
they would have built so many nuclear power plants, and via Kyoto,
encouraging everyone else to do the same?

Uh-oh. It's wearing off already.

Personally, I have nothing against nuclear power plants, but I have never
met an environmentalist who agreed.

Patrick Moore.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Greenpea...nuclear_energy

An article supporting nuclear energy written by Patrick Moore appeared in the
Washington Post Outlook section yesterday. Moore was a co-founder of
Greenpeace who currently co-chairs an industry-funded initiative, the Clean
and Safe Energy Coalition, which supports increased use of nuclear energy.

Moore says that his views have changed since founding Greenpeace, and he now
believes that using nuclear energy can help counteract catastrophic climate
change from burning fossil fuels. Says Moore, "The 600-plus coal-fired plants
emit nearly 2 billion tons of CO2 annually -- the equivalent of the exhaust
from about 300 million automobiles." Moore also cites reports from the Clean
Air Council that coal plants are responsible for 64 percent of sulfur dioxide
emissions, 26 percent of nitrous oxides and 33 percent of mercury emissions.

"Meanwhile, the 103 nuclear plants operating in the United States effectively
avoid the release of 700 million tons of CO2 emissions annually," says Moore.
"Nuclear energy is the only large-scale, cost-effective energy source that
can reduce these emissions while continuing to satisfy a growing demand for
power. And these days it can do so safely."

Graham

[Eeyore]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Mark A" wrote
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote

Yeah; sure; whatever you say. Oh, you majored in burger flippin' at Jerk
in the Box. I see that you're an expert.

No I majored in political science with an emphasis in foreign relations.
All nations act in their self interest, all of the time. France is hardly
an exception.

**True. France is not trying to destroy the US economy. The French
government is rightly concerned about the effects of global warming. Global
warming will cause problems for France (and everyone else).


This Kyoto smokescreen about "environmental concerns" should be
transparent to anyone with brains. Proliferating the earth with nuclear
power plants is not exactly what most environmentalists would call a good
idea. There is no way anyone can achieve the Kyoto reductions without
nuclear power plants.

**Nonsense. Building nukes is one, short term, solution. There are other,
more prosaic, practical and environmentally benign methods.

Energy efficiency being the big one which sadly often gets overlooked and
rarely merits any serious attention. Quite bizarre.

Reducing how much you use is almost invariably more cost effective than burning
or generating more too.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy

You're a crackhead.

Graham

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

You said VERY high. I certainly don't think 8% is VERY high.

If the US unemployment rate rose 70% to 8% overall, I think they would
consider that to be very high. I think there would be rioting in the streets
in the US, just like in France.

The French have a national trait of demonstrating at the drop of a hat.
That
doesn't mean their society is about to fall apart, it's simply what they
do.
Quality of life in France is excellent.

Graham

If you have a job, yes the quality of life is fine. But who wants to open a
business in France when it is practically illegal to have layoffs. The high
value of the Euro makes things worse as imports rise and exports fall.
France is on a downward spiral.

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Mark A" wrote
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote

Yeah; sure; whatever you say. Oh, you majored in burger flippin' at
Jerk
in the Box. I see that you're an expert.

No I majored in political science with an emphasis in foreign
relations.
All nations act in their self interest, all of the time. France is
hardly
an exception.

**True. France is not trying to destroy the US economy. The French
government is rightly concerned about the effects of global warming.
Global
warming will cause problems for France (and everyone else).


This Kyoto smokescreen about "environmental concerns" should be
transparent to anyone with brains. Proliferating the earth with nuclear
power plants is not exactly what most environmentalists would call a
good
idea. There is no way anyone can achieve the Kyoto reductions without
nuclear power plants.

**Nonsense. Building nukes is one, short term, solution. There are other,
more prosaic, practical and environmentally benign methods.

Energy efficiency being the big one which sadly often gets overlooked and
rarely merits any serious attention. Quite bizarre.

**Indeed. Worse, no one mentions the fact that easily available uranium will
run out in much less than 100 years. Throium makes far more sense. Less
polluting too. Of course, geo-thermal energy makes far more sense than any
competing source.


Reducing how much you use is almost invariably more cost effective than
burning
or generating more too.


**Of course.

Trevor Wilson

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Are you trying to suggest that 'what most environmentalist think are good
ideas'
should be our benchmark !! ??

Graham

No, the title of this thread is the Kyoto Hypocrisy. The environmentalists
thinks that reducing CO2 emissions is important, but I never met any ardent
environmentalist who was willing to go nuclear to achieve that end. And
nuclear is the only way a country could possibly comply with Kyoto, unless
there was a serious economic depression.

So the environmental criticize the US for not signing Kyoto, but they don't
seem to say anything about the countries rapidly building nuclear plants
(which they at least despise).

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Patrick Moore.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Greenpea...nuclear_energy

An article supporting nuclear energy written by Patrick Moore appeared in
the
Washington Post Outlook section yesterday. Moore was a co-founder of
Greenpeace who currently co-chairs an industry-funded initiative, the
Clean
and Safe Energy Coalition, which supports increased use of nuclear energy.

Moore says that his views have changed since founding Greenpeace, and he
now
believes that using nuclear energy can help counteract catastrophic
climate
change from burning fossil fuels. Says Moore, "The 600-plus coal-fired
plants
emit nearly 2 billion tons of CO2 annually -- the equivalent of the
exhaust
from about 300 million automobiles." Moore also cites reports from the
Clean
Air Council that coal plants are responsible for 64 percent of sulfur
dioxide
emissions, 26 percent of nitrous oxides and 33 percent of mercury
emissions.

"Meanwhile, the 103 nuclear plants operating in the United States
effectively
avoid the release of 700 million tons of CO2 emissions annually," says
Moore.
"Nuclear energy is the only large-scale, cost-effective energy source that
can reduce these emissions while continuing to satisfy a growing demand
for
power. And these days it can do so safely."

Graham

He is in the extreme minority. No new nuclear plants have been started in
the US for over 30 years. The Democrats in Congress will not even allow a
bill to pass regarding the safe disposal of nuclear waste.

[George M. Middius]

Poopie has a poopiphany.

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy

You're a crackhead.

You're a Kroopologist.

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

You said VERY high. I certainly don't think 8% is VERY high.

If the US unemployment rate rose 70% to 8% overall, I think they would
consider that to be very high. I think there would be rioting in the streets
in the US, just like in France.

When do you think there was last 'rioting in the streets' ?

It's quite clear that despite your claims to be educated, you're completely out
of touch with reality.


The French have a national trait of demonstrating at the drop of a hat.
That doesn't mean their society is about to fall apart, it's simply what
they
do.
Quality of life in France is excellent.


If you have a job, yes the quality of life is fine. But who wants to open a
business in France when it is practically illegal to have layoffs. The high
value of the Euro makes things worse as imports rise and exports fall.
France is on a downward spiral.

Oh right. They're in a bad way because the currency is worth so much ! LOL

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

He [Patrick Moore] is in the extreme minority. No new nuclear plants have been
started in
the US for over 30 years. The Democrats in Congress will not even allow a
bill to pass regarding the safe disposal of nuclear waste.

You're fixating about the USA as all Americans seem to do, thinking you're the
only important place on the planet.

Let me tell you that plans for new nuclear generation are afoot just about
everywhere else. I suggest you put your own house in order and stop whining
about the French being successful.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"George M. Middius" wrote:

Poopie has a poopiphany.

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy

You're a crackhead.

You're a Kroopologist.

You're a fathead.

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Mark A" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Are you trying to suggest that 'what most environmentalist think are good
ideas'
should be our benchmark !! ??

Graham

No, the title of this thread is the Kyoto Hypocrisy. The environmentalists
thinks that reducing CO2 emissions is important, but I never met any
ardent environmentalist who was willing to go nuclear to achieve that end.
And nuclear is the only way a country could possibly comply with Kyoto,
unless there was a serious economic depression.

**Bull****.


So the environmental criticize the US for not signing Kyoto, but they
don't seem to say anything about the countries rapidly building nuclear
plants (which they at least despise).

**Bull****. You guilty of making far too many assumptions.

Trevor Wilson

[Mark A]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
Wow. Now i understand why all US foreign policies have been dismal
failures.

Oh really! Like the foreign policy of France that:

- Had to be rescued by the US in World War I
- Unfairly punished Germany after WWI which led to rise of Adolf Hitler and
caused WWII
- Had to be rescued again by the US in WWII
- French Colonialism in Vietnam and elsewhere in Indochina brutalizes people
for 100 years until the only nationalists still alive are the Communists who
eventually take over Vietnam.
- Colonized the Middle East to make it the mess it is today
- French Colonialism Algeria and killed 2 million Algerians before the
French gave up and left
- etc, etc

Is that the foreign policy you are talking about?

[Eeyore]

Mark A wrote:

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote

Wow. Now i understand why all US foreign policies have been dismal
failures.

Oh really! Like the foreign policy of France that:

- Had to be rescued by the US in World War I

By the time the US entered WW1, it was already merely a matter of time before
Germany surrendered.

Graham

[Mark A]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
By the time the US entered WW1, it was already merely a matter of time
before
Germany surrendered.

Graham

No one buys your revisionist history.

[George M. Middius]

Poopie said:

If the US unemployment rate rose 70% to 8% overall, I think they would
consider that to be very high. I think there would be rioting in the streets
in the US, just like in France.

When do you think there was last 'rioting in the streets' ?

In the U.S., that occurred in 1992, and it had nothing to do with
unemployment.

Poopie, you're not the brightest bulb in the box, but even you should
know better than to trying having a serious exchange with a whack job.

[George M. Middius]

Poopie weighs in wi' the dozens.

Poopie has a poopiphany.

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy

You're a crackhead.

You're a Kroopologist.

You're a fathead.

You're still a Kroopologist. Game, set, match.

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 15, 3:00 pm, George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast .
net wrote:
Poopie weighs in wi' the dozens.

Poopie has a poopiphany.

France wants to destroy everyone else's economy

You're a crackhead.

You're a Kroopologist.

You're a fathead.

You're still a Kroopologist. Game, set, match.

Is this what passes for deep thought among the "engineers" these days?

For the money wasted to no good purpose if Kyoto were implemented,
every hungry person in the world can be fed, given basic health care,
clean water and a primary education, which in turn will take him out
of the slough of self-perpetuating poverty. But you guys merely see it
as an opportunity to sling dull abuse at each other.

I'm ashamed to have you on a conference I contribute to.

Andre Jute
Thumbs well clear of the bricks

[Mark A]

"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
news

Poopie, you're not the brightest bulb in the box, but even you should
know better than to trying having a serious exchange with a whack job.

You are very adept at throwing garbage and name-calling instead of rational
argument, but considering that this rao and you have been here a long time,
I am not surprised.