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Andy Weaks
 
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http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

NOISE & MUSIC FACT SHEET

Warning: Whether it's Bach or Rock, Your Hearing Could be at Risk
Music is a central part of our lives. But, if played too loud, it can cause permanent
and irreversible damage to our hearing. Whether the music is at a
rock concert, from a classical orchestra, a school band, your personal stereo system
with headphones, your home stereo or car stereo, or if you are a
sound engineer, if the music is played too loud for too long, hearing damage is
inevitable.

Music-Induced Hearing Loss: How Loud is Too Loud? Continued exposure to noise above
85 decibels (about the level of city traffic), over time
will cause damage to hearing. Exposure to loud music is somewhat different from
industrial noise, however, due to the "intermittent" nature of the music
- that is, music is filled with both quiet and intense passages. This intermittent
nature of music offers some protection for the musician's ear. However,
personal stereos with headphones have been measured up to 112 dBA, rock concerts
between 110 - 120 dBA, music levels of certain orchestral
instruments in excess of 126 dBA at the ear, and new car stereos blasting at levels
above 140 dBA. Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and
52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). A study
by Judy Montgomery (1990) found that 26% of high school
seniors who played in the band had a measurable hearing loss as compared to 13% of
high school seniors who did not play in a band.

If you notice any of the following warning signs, the music may be too loud and pose
a risk to your hearing:

A ringing or buzzing in your ear (tinnitus) immediately after exposure to music.

A slight muffling of sounds after exposure making it difficult to understand
people when you leave the area with loud music.
Difficulty understanding speech; that is, you can hear all the words, but you
can't understand all of them.
If people who are only three feet away have to shout to be heard while you are
listening to music, then it is too loud.

Take Note: Your Instrument May Produce Sounds that are More than Music to your Ears
Music-induced hearing loss cannot only affect the
enjoyment of music but may also threaten a musician's career. In addition to a loss
of hearing, other damage may include tinnitus and difficulty in pitch
perception. Certain musical instruments carry specific risk: the left ear is
typically worse for violists, violinists and drummers while the right ear is
typically worse for flute and piccolo players. In an orchestra, school band or rock
group, hearing loss may also be associated with the location of
another musician's instrument in relation to your ear (i.e., a trumpet or trombone
player may be seated next to you and cause risk to your hearing).

Avoiding "The Sounds of Silence": How to Protect Your Hearing Music-induced hearing
loss is preventable. In any musical performing group,
environmental changes can reduce the risk. Trumpet players should be placed on risers
to send the damaging energy above other musicians' heads.
Moving the band further back on the stage will allow the band to play at lower levels
because some of the sound will be reflected by the audience.
Moving all stringed instrument players out from underhangs will allow for less
intense playing due to the high frequency absorption of the roof. Finally,
elevating the speakers will allow sound engineers to set the volume at lower levels.

Consider these other steps to avoid a lifetime of permanent hearing loss:
1. Whenever possible, turn down the volume.
2. Limit exposure time to loud music.
3. Wear adequate hearing protection. The ER-15 or the ER-25 earplug (designed by
Etymotic Research) is recommended. These musician plugs are
used with a custom-made ear plug and if used properly, provide 15 or 25 decibels of
hearing protection that is equal across all frequencies.This will
allow you to hear the richness of the music at lower volumes.

Resources for the Music Lover: H.E.A.R. - Hearing Education and Awareness For Rockers
www.hearnet.com
Chasin, Marshall, Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss, Singular Publishing
Group, Inc., San Diego, 1997.
Noise Center Personal Stereo Systems and Hearing Fact Sheet
www.lhh.org/noise/facts/headsets.htm


http://www.chs.ca/info/noise/general.html

Fast Facts on Noise, Loud Music & Hearing Loss
By Marshall Chasin


How loud is too loud?
Permanent noise-induced hearing loss can occur as a result of
prolonged exposure to noise or music, but only if the loudness is
greater than 85 decibels (dBA).

How loud is 85 dBA?
A dial tone on a telephone is about 85 dBA. A portable cassette
player on volume 2 out of 10, is about 85 dBA. That same portable
cassette player on volume 5 out of 10 can easily be over 100 dBA.
Rock concerts and even the ballet can be at levels over 110 dBA!

Does the length of time that I am exposed to noise or music matter?
I don't listen to my stereo cassette player for 40
hours a week!
The longer you are exposed to a damaging level (greater than 85
dBA), the greater will be the eventual hearing loss. There is a
relationship between how long you are exposed to noise and the
damage done at a certain level. This is called the exchange rate: for
every 3 dBA increase in noise exposure, the damage doubles. For
example, exposure to 85 dBA for 40 hours a week is the same as
being exposed to 88 dBA for only 20 hours, 91 dBA for 10 hours, 94
dBA for 5 hours, 97 dBA for 2.5 hours, and just over one hour
each week at 100 dBA.

Are all sounds equally damaging to your ears?
Because almost all noise- or music-induced hearing loss is observed
on a hearing test (also called an audiogram) in the 4000 Hz
region, which is near the top note of a piano keyboard, it is
understandable that many expect that sound with energy at 4000 Hz
would be the most damaging to your hearing. However, almost all
sounds, regardless of their pitch, are equally damaging to your
hearing. The reason why hearing loss is greatest at 4000 Hz has more
to do with the way the ear is made up than with the sound
that causes the hearing loss. For example, a bass guitar can be as
damaging as a flute.

Certainly listening to Beethoven and Mozart is not the same as
working around factory noise!
When the differences in the time spent listening to music and
working in noise are taken into account, there is very little difference
between the exposure one receives from Beethoven's Fifth and an
assembly line in a factory. Some reports state that if you like the
music it is slightly less damaging than noise of equal energy.
Indeed, this appears to be the case, but it should be emphasized that
enjoyment of the music only offers a very slight decrease in your
likelihood to suffer a hearing loss.

Why do I have a hearing loss when my friend who worked at the same
factory for 25 years does not have one?
Actually, your friend probably does have some hearing loss too, but
there are many individual factors that lead some people to be
more susceptible to hearing loss from noise or music. These are
mostly genetic factors such as the effect of the individual's middle ear
muscles, eye colour, culture and one's gender. Other risk factors
include smoking, and even environment: for instance, exposure to
noise in the cold is actually less damaging than exposure in a warm
environment, due to the increased central blood supply to your
inner ear!

Are there any warning signs of a permanent noise-induced hearing
loss?
We have all occasionally experienced a muffled feeling in our ears,
or ringing after attending a rock concert, a car race or watching
fireworks. If your hearing were to be measured immediately after
such an event, it would be temporarily reduced. This is called
Temporary Threshold Shift (TTS). Within 16-18 hours, hearing should
return to the preexposed level. Ringing (or tinnitus) in your
ears may continue for several days. TTS and ringing are signs that
the noise or music level is too loud. Eventually, continued TTS may
lead to permanent hearing loss.

Is there a quick test of my hearing that I can perform myself,
without going to an audiologist?
A quick test of your hearing can be accomplished before and after
you go to a noisy event or work situation. Before going to the
event or work, tune your car radio to an all-talk news station and
adjust the volume so that you can just barely understand the
conversation. After returning to your car (without adjusting the
volume control) see if you can understand the conversation. If you
cannot, then you probably have been overexposed to the noise or
music. It is a good idea to see an audiologist to determine if
permanent damage has been done, as well as to learn some strategies
to reduce your risk in the future.

Can levels below 85 dBA damage my hearing?
While there may be some effect from long-term exposure to everyday
environmental noise, there is no clear evidence that it will have
an effect on hearing. However, constant noise as quiet as 65 dBA
(about average conversational levels) can have an effect on stress,
sleep patterns and even learning.

Is there some medicine or an operation that can fix a noise- or
music- related hearing loss?
Noise-related hearing loss is a result of damage to the inner ear
(or cochlea). With current knowledge and technology, we cannot fix
an inner ear (also called sensorineural) hearing loss. The
technology to fix some of the thousands of nerve endings in the inner ear
would be the same technology required to enable a paralysed person
(in a wheelchair) to walk.

If I have a noise- or music-induced hearing loss that is affecting
my ability to communicate with my friends or family,
what can be done?
Hearing aids can be very useful for most people, especially with
recent improvements in technology and miniaturization. Assistive
listening devices (found in many theatres, meeting halls and places
of worship) can bring the speech or music directly to your seat,
regardless of where you are situated in the hall. Hearing help
classes (also called aural rehabilitation classes) that teach the use of
visual cues, contextual cues and strategies can be very useful for
people with a permanent hearing loss.

I realize that almost everyone will have some age-related hearing
loss (called presbycusis) in their latter years. Are there
some things that can be done to minimize the chances of also getting
a hearing loss from some of the preventable
sources of hearing loss, such as factory noise, or a rock concert?
Reducing the overall level of the noise is a good place to start.
Factories have health and safety committees that strive to educate
workers to wear optimal hearing protection (plugs or muffs), as well
as to work closely with management to reduce the noise
emanating from machinery. In some cases, workers have been removed
from very noisy locations and the machinery operated by
remote control. Noisy situations can be combatted. Take lunch and
breaks away from noise and loud music sources. Musical groups
can alter the positioning of speakers and instruments to minimize
the potential for hearing loss. Very sophisticated hearing protection
can be used, depending on the type of noise. For example, rock
musicians (and many in the audience) can wear a custom-made
earplug that lessens the music level equally for all the music. In
this way, musicians and audience can still hear the music, but at a less
damaging level. Moderation is also wise: set your portable stereo
cassette player at a volume of two (out of 10) or less. And if you
attend a rock concert or a Wagnerian symphony, don't mow your lawn
for a day or two afterward (sounds like a good excuse to
me!).

Article first appeared in July, 1997 issue of Vibes.

http://www.canadianaudiology.ca/q-a/...pollution.html

What is noise?

Noise can be defined as any unwanted sound and when loud enough, can damage your
hearing permanently. So noise can range from a
shotgun blast to recreational music that you would listen to at home or in your
car, such as classical music. There is a general trade off
between the loudness and the length of time exposed to the sound/noise. The
louder the sound, the shorter the time you should be around that
noise before it causes damage. Aside from destroying your hearing, noise can be a
source of tinnitus (a sound heard in your head when no
sound is actually present), annoyance, stress and interference with
communication. Tinnitus can actually become constant and permanent.

Most people think of a gun blast as loud, but can classical music damage hearing?

Any sound, if loud enough, can damage your hearing. Whether you like listening to
the Bee Gees, Led Zeppelin or Beethoven, if music is
played loud enough it can harm you hearing - permanently. From the toys children
play with, to walkmans or car stereos, to lawnmowers or
chainsaws, to factory noise and other recreational hobbies (wood-workers) and
professions (pilots), all have the potential to have a
permanent effect on hearing if not properly controlled.

Can one exposure to a loud sound harm your ears forever?

Yes. There are three types of "noise related" hearing loss. First, it can be
temporary. The damage is done slowly and will often come back
after a rest from the noise such as we all have experienced going to "rock
concerts". Secondly, it can then progress to a permanent loss over
time if the noise/music is loud enough and the exposure time is long enough. The
damage you sustain is cumulative, so each new exposure can
add to your hearing loss. Finally, there can be a sudden permanent hearing loss
if there is exposure to a brief but very intense sound.

How loud is too loud?

We measure sound in units called decibels or dB's. While there are laws guiding
the amount of noise a person can be exposed to in the
workplace, noise is considered to be too loud if the sound is over 85 dB and
hearing protection should be worn. To give you a reference, the
wind in the trees can be 20 dB; a person when talking can be 55 dB. A chainsaw
can be measured at 95 dB and a single handgun blast can
be as much as 160 dB! As a rule of thumb, if you have to raise your voice over
the noise, you should be wearing hearing protection. No
person should be exposed to sounds over 120 dB for even very short periods of
time without hearing protection. Levels over 120 dB can
cause permanent damage even after one brief exposure.

How can I tell if I have been exposed to loud sounds?

Generally, after a loud exposure to sound you may feel as if your hearing is
dulled, your ears may seem full and/or you may get tinnitus.

How can I protect myself from noise?

The best protection is to avoid exposure to any loud sounds. If that is not an
option, wear some form of hearing protection such as earplugs or
muffs. Under the law, any person exposed to noise over a certain level on the job
must have hearing protection available on site. Companies
which follow these laws have noise programs that monitor the noise as well as the
employees hearing on a regular basis. At home you should
have a set of earplugs in your workshop or carry a set of earplugs in your
jacket. If you can control the loudness or volume, such as a car
stereo or personal walkman, the best approach is turn down the volume.

What about playing music on my car stereo. Can this be damaging?

Yes!!! Most certainly the noise levels obtained from most car stereos can reach
levels which are damaging to your hearing, especially with the
windows up. Some "high end" car stereos can reach levels which exceed 130-160
dB's!!!!! Even short exposures can permanently damage
your hearing. The best advice is to turn the volume down. Once your hearing is
damaged (or you develop constant tinnitus) it cannot be
repaired so the best action is prevention.

What can I do if I suspect a hearing loss, if I develop tinnitus or I have any
questions about hearing and noise?

If you suspect that you have a hearing loss or if you have tinnitus see your
family physician who can refer you to an Audiologist. An
Audiologist is a professional who is trained to test your hearing and give you
advice about what to do if you have a hearing loss or tinnitus as
well as give advice on prevention of hearing loss, especially from noise
exposure.

  #2   Report Post  
Scott Johnson
 
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and exactly what does this have to do with the price of eggs?
  #3   Report Post  
Kevin Glass
 
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Hey Andy.

Consider these other steps to avoid a lifetime of permanent hearing
loss:
1. Whenever possible, turn down the volume.

Never, why the hell would I have spent soo much money on a system. I want
other people to hear it. I am a show off. Nothing like driving down Falls
Ave. In Niagara with the system Up

2. Limit exposure time to loud music.

Well, Its not really "loud". Its actually SPL DBs, so it will crush you
heart valve and try and collapse your lungs berfore it effects your ears.
149.1 DB was the most I could withstand INSIDE the vehicle.

3. Wear adequate hearing protection. The ER-15 or the ER-25 earplug
(designed by
Etymotic Research) is recommended. These musician plugs are
used with a custom-made ear plug and if used properly, provide 15 or 25
decibels of
hearing protection that is equal across all frequencies.This will
allow you to hear the richness of the music at lower volumes.

I am not a Musician, so I guess this doesn't mean I need to wear them then.
If I am in a vehicle, and I am wearing ear plugs, I might as well scotch
tape my eyes shut aswell. I won't be able to hear the traffic!

Thanks for the Info!



"Andy Weaks" wrote in message
...
http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm



  #4   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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and exactly what does this have to do with the price of eggs?

It's just his way of justifying the notion that it's "easy" to shoot a gun
one's an entire life and be careless enough to not realize that it could
result in hearing loss. He's ****ed at me because I said that's not easy to
do. And apparently he's been thinking way too much about it...


  #5   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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nope just trying to show you were full of ****,

Prove it.




  #6   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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BTW, I don't shoot guns you ****ing
know-it-all.


Sorry. It's hard to keep trolls straight. They all seem to blend together.


  #7   Report Post  
SmilingSinner
 
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Resources for the Music Lover: H.E.A.R. - Hearing Education and Awareness
For Rockers
www.hearnet.com
Chasin, Marshall, Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss,
Singular Publishing
Group, Inc., San Diego, 1997.
Noise Center Personal Stereo Systems and Hearing Fact Sheet
www.lhh.org/noise/facts/headsets.htm


http://www.chs.ca/info/noise/general.html

Fast Facts on Noise, Loud Music & Hearing Loss
By Marshall Chasin


At least he citedsome reference material as opposed to your constant
gratuitous assertions based on the all knowing mind of mark prove your case
you dumb *******
"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in message
...
nope just trying to show you were full of ****,


Prove it.




  #8   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Resources for the Music Lover: H.E.A.R. - Hearing Education and
Awareness
For Rockers
www.hearnet.com
Chasin, Marshall, Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss,
Singular Publishing
Group, Inc., San Diego, 1997.
Noise Center Personal Stereo Systems and Hearing Fact Sheet
www.lhh.org/noise/facts/headsets.htm


http://www.chs.ca/info/noise/general.html

Fast Facts on Noise, Loud Music & Hearing Loss
By Marshall Chasin


At least he citedsome reference material as opposed to your constant
gratuitous assertions based on the all knowing mind of mark prove your

case
you dumb *******


None of those citations are refereed, so they're essentially worthless.


  #9   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Furthermore, it's been well-documented that there are two chief variables
with regard to noise-induced hearing loss: an intensity variable and a
time-domain variable. It's also been well-documented that the relationship
between these and the energy of the stimulus is highly nonlinear. The
values provided in the web sites he posted from are almost entirely
arbitrary and provide no worthwhile point of reference. They are nothing
more than layperson FAQs! They're written strictly for morons who actually
don't know that loud sounds can (can, not will) cause damage.

My contention is, and has been, that it's NOT EASY to cause permanent
damage. Does that mean that I said it's impossible? Of course not. But I
think it takes a complete moron to think he knows anything about the
mechanisms of hearing loss by merely reading a public service announcement.
That sort of thing leads people to spew misinformation all over the net, as
was the case in a recent thread here that I'll repost in hopes that you'll
see exactly where I'm coming from. (note in particular Christina's initial
response)

****************************

From: John Dziurlaj )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-06 17:58:38 PST

Hi There. I'm having concerns about my hearing and if my system is a
threat to it. I wouldn't say I play my system 'that' loud, maybe
pumping around 600 w (two JL 12s), but my ears have been feeling weird
as of late, and I'm just wondering if anyone in the field has noticed
any signs of hearing loss. I'm also very paranoid about things, so it
could just be that too. Any comments would be of great help! Thanks!
John Dziurlaj

***************************

Message 9 in thread
From: Mark Zarella )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:17:32 PST


I've ingnored the feeling for almost two weeks I'd say, do you think
my hearing is permently damaged?


I would go get tested. It's highly unlikely that you "lost your hearing"
with a single exposure. What you're experiencing now I'm sure SEEMS real,
but it actually may not be. Or it could be a symptom of a sinus or inner
ear issue. If I were you I'd see a doctor. You won't know otherwise.

***********************************

Message 10 in thread
From: Christina Robertson )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:25:28 PST


I'd say yes you have damage. What is probalby more important than the
two weeks you've been ignoring it is how long you've been exposed to
VERY loud music in total. The effect is cummulative. Just refraining
for a few weeks and then cranking the volume back up is not a good
idea. If you're in your 20's and have been exposed to loud music a long
time you probalby already have some mild hearing loss. (It doens't have
to be heralded by any feeling at all)

The safest thing to do would be to simply turn your music down.
Permenantly. Not only would your ears thank you years down the road,
but drivers around you wouldn't be wincing every time you went by. (Or
heaven help us get stuck at an intersection with you.) The sorts of
noises young men (though I suppose some young women also listen to VERY
loud music) play in their cars is quite often more than enough to cause
permenant and severe hearing loss over time.

Turn your music on to what seems like a good volume to you. Get out and
shut the doors. If you can still understand the words of the music its
too loud! If you can still feel that thumping base, its too loud! Turn
it down. But that's just me and I've been called an old lady.

Chris


  #10   Report Post  
SmilingSinner
 
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well documented by who where with what credentials - Still citing yourself I
see?
"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in message
news
Furthermore, it's been well-documented that there are two chief variables
with regard to noise-induced hearing loss: an intensity variable and a
time-domain variable. It's also been well-documented that the

relationship
between these and the energy of the stimulus is highly nonlinear. The
values provided in the web sites he posted from are almost entirely
arbitrary and provide no worthwhile point of reference. They are nothing
more than layperson FAQs! They're written strictly for morons who

actually
don't know that loud sounds can (can, not will) cause damage.

My contention is, and has been, that it's NOT EASY to cause permanent
damage. Does that mean that I said it's impossible? Of course not. But

I
think it takes a complete moron to think he knows anything about the
mechanisms of hearing loss by merely reading a public service

announcement.
That sort of thing leads people to spew misinformation all over the net,

as
was the case in a recent thread here that I'll repost in hopes that you'll
see exactly where I'm coming from. (note in particular Christina's

initial
response)

****************************

From: John Dziurlaj )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-06 17:58:38 PST

Hi There. I'm having concerns about my hearing and if my system is a
threat to it. I wouldn't say I play my system 'that' loud, maybe
pumping around 600 w (two JL 12s), but my ears have been feeling weird
as of late, and I'm just wondering if anyone in the field has noticed
any signs of hearing loss. I'm also very paranoid about things, so it
could just be that too. Any comments would be of great help! Thanks!
John Dziurlaj

***************************

Message 9 in thread
From: Mark Zarella )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:17:32 PST


I've ingnored the feeling for almost two weeks I'd say, do you think
my hearing is permently damaged?


I would go get tested. It's highly unlikely that you "lost your hearing"
with a single exposure. What you're experiencing now I'm sure SEEMS real,
but it actually may not be. Or it could be a symptom of a sinus or inner
ear issue. If I were you I'd see a doctor. You won't know otherwise.

***********************************

Message 10 in thread
From: Christina Robertson )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:25:28 PST


I'd say yes you have damage. What is probalby more important than the
two weeks you've been ignoring it is how long you've been exposed to
VERY loud music in total. The effect is cummulative. Just refraining
for a few weeks and then cranking the volume back up is not a good
idea. If you're in your 20's and have been exposed to loud music a long
time you probalby already have some mild hearing loss. (It doens't have
to be heralded by any feeling at all)

The safest thing to do would be to simply turn your music down.
Permenantly. Not only would your ears thank you years down the road,
but drivers around you wouldn't be wincing every time you went by. (Or
heaven help us get stuck at an intersection with you.) The sorts of
noises young men (though I suppose some young women also listen to VERY
loud music) play in their cars is quite often more than enough to cause
permenant and severe hearing loss over time.

Turn your music on to what seems like a good volume to you. Get out and
shut the doors. If you can still understand the words of the music its
too loud! If you can still feel that thumping base, its too loud! Turn
it down. But that's just me and I've been called an old lady.

Chris






  #11   Report Post  
Andy Weaks
 
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Mark Zarella wrote:

BTW, I don't shoot guns you ****ing
know-it-all.


Sorry. It's hard to keep trolls straight. They all seem to blend together.


so anyone that disagrees with you is troll, how interesting.

  #12   Report Post  
Andy Weaks
 
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Mark Zarella wrote:

Resources for the Music Lover: H.E.A.R. - Hearing Education and

Awareness
For Rockers
www.hearnet.com
Chasin, Marshall, Musicians and the Prevention of Hearing Loss,
Singular Publishing
Group, Inc., San Diego, 1997.
Noise Center Personal Stereo Systems and Hearing Fact Sheet
www.lhh.org/noise/facts/headsets.htm


http://www.chs.ca/info/noise/general.html

Fast Facts on Noise, Loud Music & Hearing Loss
By Marshall Chasin


At least he citedsome reference material as opposed to your constant
gratuitous assertions based on the all knowing mind of mark prove your

case
you dumb *******


None of those citations are refereed, so they're essentially worthless.


if you check the links they are all summations of years of info and all are from valid
organization. So you think they are all lying. Why don't you take it up with them.

  #13   Report Post  
Andy Weaks
 
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mark,

you are playing semantics, you say it is not easy to damage your hearing. What is easy? Is
it listening to loud music, say over 105 dBs 2 hours a day for 3 days a week for 5 years.
Or is it only listening to 120 or more dBs for a minute or two once every three or four
weeks. Or is it 100 dB for 45 minutes in the morning and 45 minutes in evening five days a
week with one evening at 115 for a 45 minute set four times, or is it listening to the
birds singing in the back yard. Is it seeing dozens of concerts and sitting in front of
the speakers at rock concerts at 13 years old? Ripping plywood for kitchen cabinets and
sub boxes. That was and is my life, easy, it is what I did. No strain, most of the time I
was just sitting there with my fingers on the volume.

I have severe hearing loss from all of those scenarios. I have hearing loss that prevents
me from enjoying parties and bars anymore. I have to "what?" a lot. I can't conduct bird
research anymore.

Hearing loss is a terrible thing to experience and your continual mantra of "it isn't easy
to lose your hearing" is irresponsible. It is easy to lose your hearing and to deny that
leaves many naive young people on the group with the impression that they can listen to
loud stereos with immunity. Every site I visited and talks to audiologist say that loud
sounds can and will cause hearing loss. It is progressive and irreparable. I knew that I
could loose my hearing, I am an intelligent professional working in the environmental
field but my love of music played loudly has left me with significant hearing loss. I
didn't try to lose my hearing. It happened progressively over the years. I am 43 and still
love to feel the kick drum slam my chest and the rumble of the bass lines from The Allman
Brothers' "Whipping Post". When I hear these kid's loud stereos (over top of mine mind
you) I cringe. You probably just say "crank it up, you can't loose your hearing that way".
I want people to understand that they will experience hearing lose if they listen loud
music when they drive. To say otherwise is reckless.

You sound like you would like to see these warnings removed from the audiologist's
websites. The only thing I can see is you must benefit from the sale of powerful stereo
systems and any warning that they can be dangerous would hurt your bottom line.

That is all I have to say but I hope people will not kowtow to your point of view. I have
read many of your posts and for the most part you seem knowledgeable but hear you are
disingenuous and potentially harmful.

Andy

Mark Zarella wrote:

Furthermore, it's been well-documented that there are two chief variables
with regard to noise-induced hearing loss: an intensity variable and a
time-domain variable. It's also been well-documented that the relationship
between these and the energy of the stimulus is highly nonlinear. The
values provided in the web sites he posted from are almost entirely
arbitrary and provide no worthwhile point of reference. They are nothing
more than layperson FAQs! They're written strictly for morons who actually
don't know that loud sounds can (can, not will) cause damage.

My contention is, and has been, that it's NOT EASY to cause permanent
damage. Does that mean that I said it's impossible? Of course not. But I
think it takes a complete moron to think he knows anything about the
mechanisms of hearing loss by merely reading a public service announcement.
That sort of thing leads people to spew misinformation all over the net, as
was the case in a recent thread here that I'll repost in hopes that you'll
see exactly where I'm coming from. (note in particular Christina's initial
response)

****************************

From: John Dziurlaj )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-06 17:58:38 PST

Hi There. I'm having concerns about my hearing and if my system is a
threat to it. I wouldn't say I play my system 'that' loud, maybe
pumping around 600 w (two JL 12s), but my ears have been feeling weird
as of late, and I'm just wondering if anyone in the field has noticed
any signs of hearing loss. I'm also very paranoid about things, so it
could just be that too. Any comments would be of great help! Thanks!
John Dziurlaj

***************************

Message 9 in thread
From: Mark Zarella )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:17:32 PST

I've ingnored the feeling for almost two weeks I'd say, do you think
my hearing is permently damaged?


I would go get tested. It's highly unlikely that you "lost your hearing"
with a single exposure. What you're experiencing now I'm sure SEEMS real,
but it actually may not be. Or it could be a symptom of a sinus or inner
ear issue. If I were you I'd see a doctor. You won't know otherwise.

***********************************

Message 10 in thread
From: Christina Robertson )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:25:28 PST

I'd say yes you have damage. What is probalby more important than the
two weeks you've been ignoring it is how long you've been exposed to
VERY loud music in total. The effect is cummulative. Just refraining
for a few weeks and then cranking the volume back up is not a good
idea. If you're in your 20's and have been exposed to loud music a long
time you probalby already have some mild hearing loss. (It doens't have
to be heralded by any feeling at all)

The safest thing to do would be to simply turn your music down.
Permenantly. Not only would your ears thank you years down the road,
but drivers around you wouldn't be wincing every time you went by. (Or
heaven help us get stuck at an intersection with you.) The sorts of
noises young men (though I suppose some young women also listen to VERY
loud music) play in their cars is quite often more than enough to cause
permenant and severe hearing loss over time.

Turn your music on to what seems like a good volume to you. Get out and
shut the doors. If you can still understand the words of the music its
too loud! If you can still feel that thumping base, its too loud! Turn
it down. But that's just me and I've been called an old lady.

Chris


  #14   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default hearing loss info

At least he citedsome reference material as opposed to your constant
gratuitous assertions based on the all knowing mind of mark prove your

case
you dumb *******


None of those citations are refereed, so they're essentially worthless.


if you check the links they are all summations of years of info and all

are from valid
organization. So you think they are all lying. Why don't you take it up

with them.

Define "valid". No, I don't think they're necessarily lying (they may be).
All I can say is that they're being sensationalistic. This is pretty much
the norm for these kind of organizations. Hell, organizations like MADD
flat out lie all the time about the statistics they gather, but it doesn't
mean their organization is bad.


  #15   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default hearing loss info

well documented by who where with what credentials - Still citing yourself
I
see?


A quick medline search brings up several relevant references to support what
I said in the preceding post...

Levine S. Hofstetter P. Zheng XY. Henderson D. Duration and peak level as
co-factors in hearing loss from exposure to impact noise. [Journal Article]
Scandinavian Audiology. Supplementum. 48:27-36, 1998.

Cochlear damage caused by continuous and intermittent noise exposure,
Hearing Research, Volume 178, Issues 1-2, April 2003, Pages 70-78
Akram Pourbakht and Tatsuya Yamasoba

Temporary and permanent noise-induced changes in distortion product
otoacoustic emissions in CBA/CaJ mice, Hearing Research, Volume 156, Issues
1-2, June 2001, Pages 31-43
Ana E. Vázquez, Anne E. Luebke, Glen K. Martin and Brenda L. Lonsbury-Martin

The effects of interrupted noise exposures on the noise-damaged cochlea,
Hearing Research, Volume 143, Issues 1-2, May 2000, Pages 103-109
William A. Ahroon and Roger P. Hamernik

Noise-induced hearing loss in the noise-toughened auditory system, Hearing
Research, Volume 129, Issues 1-2, March 1999, Pages 101-110
William A. Ahroon and Roger P. Hamernik

Reduced temporary and permanent hearing losses with multiple tone exposures,
Hearing Research, Volume 6, Issue 3, April 1982, Pages 291-301
A. R. Cody and B. M. Johnstone

Oftedal G. Nivison ME. Jinze Z. Intensity-time tradeoff for constant hearing
loss with high sound levels. [Journal Article] Journal of the Acoustical
Society of America. 83(1):203-11, 1988 Jan.

Compensation in over-stimulation is detailed in Hudspeth's recent work. I
don't have any exact papers handy, but I can find them.

And the abstract on this one was interesting...

Ramsey KL. Simmons FB. High-powered automobile stereos. [Journal Article]
Otolaryngology - Head & Neck Surgery. 109(1):108-10, 1993 Jul.

"We measured the owner-adjusted acoustic outputs of 10 automobile stereo
systems, with power ratings ranging between 150 and 600 watts. The sound
levels ranged from 107 to 138 dB SPL and 84 to 108 dBA. Most of the
high-intensity sound was in the 31, 62, and 125 Hz center-frequency octave
bands. The mean computed noise dose, based on the vehicle owners' reported
daily duration of exposure, was 108.5%. While there is clearly a risk of
hearing damage in the extreme cases according to OSHA standards, the typical
listening durations claimed by the stereo owners would seem to lower the
risk for the majority to acceptable margins for the automobiles measured."


"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in message
news
Furthermore, it's been well-documented that there are two chief

variables
with regard to noise-induced hearing loss: an intensity variable and a
time-domain variable. It's also been well-documented that the

relationship
between these and the energy of the stimulus is highly nonlinear. The
values provided in the web sites he posted from are almost entirely
arbitrary and provide no worthwhile point of reference. They are

nothing
more than layperson FAQs! They're written strictly for morons who

actually
don't know that loud sounds can (can, not will) cause damage.

My contention is, and has been, that it's NOT EASY to cause permanent
damage. Does that mean that I said it's impossible? Of course not.

But
I
think it takes a complete moron to think he knows anything about the
mechanisms of hearing loss by merely reading a public service

announcement.
That sort of thing leads people to spew misinformation all over the net,

as
was the case in a recent thread here that I'll repost in hopes that

you'll
see exactly where I'm coming from. (note in particular Christina's

initial
response)

****************************

From: John Dziurlaj )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-06 17:58:38 PST

Hi There. I'm having concerns about my hearing and if my system is a
threat to it. I wouldn't say I play my system 'that' loud, maybe
pumping around 600 w (two JL 12s), but my ears have been feeling weird
as of late, and I'm just wondering if anyone in the field has noticed
any signs of hearing loss. I'm also very paranoid about things, so it
could just be that too. Any comments would be of great help! Thanks!
John Dziurlaj

***************************

Message 9 in thread
From: Mark Zarella )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:17:32 PST


I've ingnored the feeling for almost two weeks I'd say, do you think
my hearing is permently damaged?


I would go get tested. It's highly unlikely that you "lost your

hearing"
with a single exposure. What you're experiencing now I'm sure SEEMS

real,
but it actually may not be. Or it could be a symptom of a sinus or

inner
ear issue. If I were you I'd see a doctor. You won't know otherwise.

***********************************

Message 10 in thread
From: Christina Robertson )
Subject: Hearing Loss in Car Audio........does it happen?


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Date: 2003-05-09 11:25:28 PST


I'd say yes you have damage. What is probalby more important than the
two weeks you've been ignoring it is how long you've been exposed to
VERY loud music in total. The effect is cummulative. Just refraining
for a few weeks and then cranking the volume back up is not a good
idea. If you're in your 20's and have been exposed to loud music a long
time you probalby already have some mild hearing loss. (It doens't have
to be heralded by any feeling at all)

The safest thing to do would be to simply turn your music down.
Permenantly. Not only would your ears thank you years down the road,
but drivers around you wouldn't be wincing every time you went by. (Or
heaven help us get stuck at an intersection with you.) The sorts of
noises young men (though I suppose some young women also listen to VERY
loud music) play in their cars is quite often more than enough to cause
permenant and severe hearing loss over time.

Turn your music on to what seems like a good volume to you. Get out and
shut the doors. If you can still understand the words of the music its
too loud! If you can still feel that thumping base, its too loud! Turn
it down. But that's just me and I've been called an old lady.

Chris








  #16   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default hearing loss info

BTW, I don't shoot guns you ****ing
know-it-all.


Sorry. It's hard to keep trolls straight. They all seem to blend

together.

so anyone that disagrees with you is troll, how interesting.


No, I label a "Troll" as someone who posts just to call people names and
offers little else.


  #17   Report Post  
SmilingSinner
 
Posts: n/a
Default hearing loss info

is this you?
http://www.geocities.com/decriminali.../taxation.html

http://www.geocities.com/decriminali...rlharbor1.html

http://www.geocities.com/decriminali...rlharbor2.html

"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in message
...
and exactly what does this have to do with the price of eggs?


It's just his way of justifying the notion that it's "easy" to shoot a gun
one's an entire life and be careless enough to not realize that it could
result in hearing loss. He's ****ed at me because I said that's not easy

to
do. And apparently he's been thinking way too much about it...




  #18   Report Post  
jp
 
Posts: n/a
Default hearing loss info

really ???????????? No ****??????????????? Is this common
sense????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????
"Kevin Glass" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
Hey Andy.

Consider these other steps to avoid a lifetime of permanent hearing
loss:
1. Whenever possible, turn down the volume.

Never, why the hell would I have spent soo much money on a system. I want
other people to hear it. I am a show off. Nothing like driving down

Falls
Ave. In Niagara with the system Up

2. Limit exposure time to loud music.

Well, Its not really "loud". Its actually SPL DBs, so it will crush you
heart valve and try and collapse your lungs berfore it effects your ears.
149.1 DB was the most I could withstand INSIDE the vehicle.

3. Wear adequate hearing protection. The ER-15 or the ER-25 earplug
(designed by
Etymotic Research) is recommended. These musician plugs are
used with a custom-made ear plug and if used properly, provide 15 or

25
decibels of
hearing protection that is equal across all frequencies.This will
allow you to hear the richness of the music at lower volumes.

I am not a Musician, so I guess this doesn't mean I need to wear them

then.
If I am in a vehicle, and I am wearing ear plugs, I might as well scotch
tape my eyes shut aswell. I won't be able to hear the traffic!

Thanks for the Info!



"Andy Weaks" wrote in message
...
http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm





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