Hi all,

I know there is no hard fast answer. I’m just looking for a
ballpark.
We have at least two Christmas parties to play this upcoming season,
one of which is black tie for 1000 guests and will pay us upward of
$3000.00.
One of the two is giving us two hours between load in and the start of
the party.
My first impression is that we cannot set up in that amount of time,
much less get a good sound-check.
So here’s our setup:
4 vocalists, 2 guitars, keyboards, bass and drums.
The drums will be mixed onstage and the rest will be run down the 8
channel snake to the 16 channel Behringer board (hope to upgrade this
soon)
From there the signal goes to two mains power amps crossed over and
powering a 2x15 pair of subs and two-way JBLs on the top.
We have one monitor mix into two amps running 4 wedges and one aux
that we use for effects.
Of course there are eqs between the board and the amps.
We also spend a little extra time and send, a variety of ways, each
instrument’s signal to a keyboard amp facing the drummer so he
can hear everything without having instruments in the monitor mix. We
use side fills as well.
The drummer uses a plexi-glass shield.
Questions:
How fast should we be able to set this up?
How long should a sound-check take for a band of this size?
Since the drums are close miked with clip on mics should we be able to
get a drum mix in a sub-mixer that will work for most rooms? Or are
there eq issues that will change from room to room.

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

"Shawn" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I know there is no hard fast answer. I’m just looking for a
ballpark.
We have at least two Christmas parties to play this upcoming season,
one of which is black tie for 1000 guests and will pay us upward of
$3000.00.
One of the two is giving us two hours between load in and the start of
the party.
My first impression is that we cannot set up in that amount of time,
much less get a good sound-check.
So here’s our setup:
4 vocalists, 2 guitars, keyboards, bass and drums.

Shawn, we had G,B,D, 4vox and sequencer. We all came in, laid the snake,
speaker cables and monitor cables (only one in-ear at the time), and then
brought in the board, and amp racks, tops and subs, a monitor cabs. I hooked
up the PA and all of the mic cables/lines while our drummer set up his kit,
and the bass player set up our lights (we had no roadies or techs) and our
singer sat on her a** (but somehow, collected the same amount of pay,
hmmmm.)

After that, he drummer set up and checked the sequencer while I set up my
guitar rig and the bass player set up his rig. We could do the whole thing
in 45 minutes (load-in included). But we usually would take a leisurely hour
to do it! Now we used the same set up night after night, and had everything
down - I've got one pedalboard and amp. The drummer only used S T T K and
Floor (no double bass kits), and the bass player had a head and two cabs,
and that was it. We always made it a pact to come to gigs with strings on
and tuned, extra backup disks for the sequencer, known workarounds for
common problems (dead batteries, bad amp channels for the mains - and having
to come up with solutions on the spot). So basically, we had our rears in
gear when we got there.

If we couldn't get a soundcheck (because people were still eating dinner, or
whatever) we just did a line check. Since we always used the same rig, and
played basically the same size venues, all that was needed was a little
tweaking which was done by the second song. But what we had was a
"soundcheck song" - one sound, with all of the instruments going, that we
could play a minute of and know if things were going to be right or not -
everything was a given.

You've got till Christmas - not only should you start practicing your tunes
and show, but you should start practicing your set-up too if you can. Find
out what you can about the space - how you get in, where you park, stairs,
elevators, etc. Make sure you got accurate directions - and preferably a
representaive from the person booking the gig to help show you where to go.
It's also important to make sure that other things are being taken care of -
like if risers are to be used, they should be set up when you get there!
(I've had that one happen).

We had one Christmas party, where, when we got there, they had the "stage"
covered with greenery and a podium, LCD projector and screen. They wanted us
to load into the hallway, and while they removed the gear from the stage
after their presentation, we were supposed to setup at the same time - they
expected this to take 15 minutes! - A lot of times clients have no idea what
it takes to load in a band and they don't even have any clue that bands even
need soundchecks! They think it;s all the Jetson's push a button and it
unfolds rig (don't we wish). They said, last year's band did it (who I later
heard sucked), and I said flat out (but professionally), we can do the best
we can, but there's a physical limit to what we can move in (since we
couldn't set it up until we started moving it in) and set up and what we can
do is set up the mains, and play some music, while we finish. Turned out
that one of the CEOs was musician, and he had his latest album there, so
they dug that and it all worked out. We got no soundcheck, but played our
soundcheck song first, and has it by the third tune. They said we were the
best band they'd ever had. But the reason we got into this situation was,
that, there was a lack of communication beforehand between the client and
our booking agent (who we ceased using after other such mishaps)

Communication is the key - communicate with the client about your needs, and
tell them realistically about your concerns (if you've got a good enough
relationship that you don't think they'll want to fire you). If you do this
in a professional manner, they'll usually step up to the plate and provide
the info, or even support - when we've told people what it takes, a lot of
times they say, oh, we'll have five people there to help you (sometimes it's
no faster, but at least someone else carries the heavy stuff!).

But you've got to have it all worked out. Everyone in my band could set up
everything by themselves (except the lead singer, whose job it was to simply
flip the on switch on her mic, which she always forgot to do (and still got
paid the same)), We all knew what needed to be done, and how to do it. You
gotta make sure your guys know that this is an important gig, and it's
extremely important to the success of your band ('cause referrals from $3000
gigs are usually better than referrals from $300 gigs!) that you come off
professional. You need to make sure everyone is on time, and everyone does
what they can to help and not be in the way. You also have to make sure that
everyone is willing to help without having to be told what to do - they
should see that if the gels aren't on the cans, that's something they can
do until they notice the next thing that needs to be done.

You can do it, but you're not going to be able to do it if your continually
faced with surprise after surprise that day (oh look, we have to load in
from the parking lot across the street - oh, it's on the second floor and no
elevator, oh, there's only 1 10 amp circuit in the whole building, oh, we
forgot to tell you, the clown needs to use the stage space until 5 minutes
before you start - I hope that's not a problem.....)

Preparation, and communication.

Best of Luck.
Steve

"Shawn" wrote in message om...
Hi all,

I know there is no hard fast answer. I'm just looking for a
ballpark.

You don't have enough PA for a ballpark. ;-)

We have at least two Christmas parties to play this upcoming season,
one of which is black tie for 1000 guests and will pay us upward of
$3000.00.
One of the two is giving us two hours between load in and the start of
the party.

And I suppose it's the one that's paying well with a lot of folks on hand.

I'll be willing to bet it's a hotel ballroom or a convention center conference
hall. These are about the only looney tunes that try to turn over a room
for multiple uses per day in under 4 hours.

My first impression is that we cannot set up in that amount of time,
much less get a good sound-check.

That would be my first impression as well. I think the big question is,
whatcha gonna do about it? You could easily shoot them a contract
that required substantially more time pre-show load-in time. However,
you can probably do it in that length of time with no more equipment
than you have... just be leaning on the door when they open it for you.

So here's our setup:
4 vocalists, 2 guitars, keyboards, bass and drums.

Fire 2 vocalists and one guitarist. Re-hire them as labor for the set-up.
(That's a joke...)

The drums will be mixed onstage and the rest will be run down the 8
channel snake to the 16 channel Behringer board

Down the snake to where? Is the mixer out front? A $3K, 1000-seat
gig should be mixed from out front. This *will* save time and assure
you a more prompt and proper, sound good-all-night, baby-sittin'...

From there the signal goes to two mains power amps crossed over and
powering a 2x15 pair of subs and two-way JBLs on the top.
We have one monitor mix into two amps running 4 wedges and one aux
that we use for effects.
Of course there are eqs between the board and the amps.

We also spend a little extra time and send, a variety of ways, each
instrument's signal to a keyboard amp facing the drummer so he
can hear everything without having instruments in the monitor mix.

I'd dump that time in favor of simply pointing the amps at the drummer
to begin with. This will also lower the stage levels from the audience's
perspective.

We use side fills as well.

Optional. The stage is filling up with speakers already. I can hear the
"more me" battles ensuing as the volume goes up.... g That's a
*real* time bandit.

The drummer uses a plexi-glass shield.

Optional... I'd remove the plexiglass and give him 4 mics... K, Sn,
Rack & Floor. (You will essentially already have four overheads via
the 4 vocal mics). The cymbals will carry on their own. Hat bleed
through the snare mic should suffice. A 1000-seater room probably
doesn't need the plexiglass, anyway. If you need the plexi because
of the drummer's technique.... well....

Questions:

How fast should we be able to set this up?

Well under 90 minutes... but you could ask for more time. Odds are
that the person paying you is not the person that runs the room. The
person paying you has been told what the 'typical' guidelines are, and
that is not always written in stone. You should be able to get into the
room the minute the furniture is in place for the event, or even as the
first thoughts of setup are occurring with the folks responsible for setting
up the room. They don't need to be in private for that because you are
actually a part of their 'setup'. You need a contact name at the location
so you can research any other possibilities. Besides, you need some
details ironed out with regard to the electrical, etc.

How long should a sound-check take for a band of this size?

Under 20 minutes.... half hour at the upper end of banality, given the
situation as described.

Since the drums are close miked with clip on mics should we be able to
get a drum mix in a sub-mixer that will work for most rooms?

80/20 against this carrying well from room to room unless they are
electronic. It's an OK starting point, but there will inevitably be tweaks.
In a time-sensitive situation, I'd prefer to be limited to a kick and a
single overhead as opposed to having to deal with the clip-ons...
especially if there's more than a couple of toms.

Or are there eq issues that will change from room to room.

Invariably. This cannot be avoided. If you moved from one position
to another in the same room you would have EQ changes.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Since the drums are close miked with clip on mics should we be able to
get a drum mix in a sub-mixer that will work for most rooms?

If the house engineer has no individual control over the kit, don't expect it
to ever sound right. I have heard one of the most respected drummers in the biz
do his own drum submix from stage, & the Grammy winning engineer could do
nothing to make it sound even remotely correct in the hall. It was just stupid
& made the whole band sound bad.

Or are
there eq issues that will change from room to room.

Yes, EQ & many other issues that require the engineer to have hands on control
of all the mics on the drum kit.


Scott Fraser

In article writes:

black tie for 1000 guests and will pay us upward of
$3000.00.
One of the two is giving us two hours between load in and the start of
the party.
My first impression is that we cannot set up in that amount of time,
much less get a good sound-check.

My thought is that if you're a band that gets gigs like this, you
should be able to set up your PA system in less than an hour, play a
CD through it, adjust the main EQ, set monitor levels, and go to the
kitchen and scarf up some food. There's no reason to take two hours to
set up PA for a "carry-in" gig unless your system is so poorly
organized that you have to carry in one box at a time and build it
from scratch on site. Your system and stage setup is quite
straightforward.

Of course if you've never done this before, you might need half a day
to figure it out.

Questions:
How fast should we be able to set this up?

Half an hour, tops.

How long should a sound-check take for a band of this size?

Ten minutes.

Since the drums are close miked with clip on mics should we be able to
get a drum mix in a sub-mixer that will work for most rooms?

You may have to EQ the overall drum mix, but then who's going to be
mixing the drums on stage? The drummer? All drummer jokes aside, how's
he going to have any idea what he's doing sounds like out in the hall?

I have a feeling that there wont be anyone running the sound system.
That's probably why you're having "issues" with this issue. Have you
considerd hiring an experienced sound engineer for the gig? If you
provide the gear and get it into the hall, you should be able to get
someone for $300. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

I could do it, alone if necessary, and in about 1 hour 45 minutes (with your
equipment) with JoVee and ready for a soundcheck. I'd be humping my ass off
to get speakers enough to handle 1000 guests, but then it's a Christmas
party and you don't need to cover 1000 guests. The dance floor and whatever
PA necessary for the CEO/President to make comments, which can be boosted by
negating EQ that's not necessary for anything but voice (leaving more power
for the mids, assuming a 2/3 way passive crossover) (moot point for you, but
others may want to have an option).

The key to any load in is planning and making the system match the
requirements and room, thereby not having you haul/load in equipment you
don't need. An additional key is to be prepared with stage diagrams of the
musicians, monitors, speaker placement, etc., so that you aren't wondering
what it is you wish to do. These types of gigs usually take me about a week
to plan, draw up and inventory, but it makes for a twenty to forty minute
load out for me alone, and then having all the right cables in the right
boxes, all the cables tested prior to the gig, etc, makes the load in go
faster.

First off, I'd seriously have to suggest going to the room to see what the
power structure is, and find out where the stage is normally set (usually
it's the most appropriate place for table configurations and therefore for
table waiting, and you may be relegated to a corner table somewhere). Most
commercial places have 30 amp circuits, but it's not necessarily true that
you'll get the same circuit throughout the room, so plan on powering both
your system and the stage from your location, which may well mean some heavy
duty (12/2 or 10/2) extensions. Power is the one thing I always worry about
first.

Run everything balanced if you can, which means no cheap snakes that only
have unbalanced returns because you'll need to but shunting the amp feeds
back through the snake. Don't ever work with a "just does it" snake because
you never know when you'll need to use 15/16 for feeds rather than mics,
etc. Spend the money, be prepared, and work fast when something doesn't
work like you expected it.

Plan your truck load in with last things in first things out (speakers,
lights, electrical, operational cables, FOH equipment). Make sure cables
are properly wound so that you don't spend time unravelling cables. If you
don't know how to "reverse" role cables, learn. Wire wrap everything for
transit because cables like to **** with you and cause delays. And don't
just wire wrap cables in one place. HOLD them in place with wire wraps.

I realize that a lot of this might be something you already do, but if you
are asking the questions you're asking, I think it's a good idea to go over
the stuff so that, whether you need it or not, lurkers might gleen some
information that would be useful to them.

I'll leave you with what David and Scott mentioned to fill out the scenario.
I particularly agree with Scott about yanking any submix from the drummer's
position unless it only affects him. I don't want a drummer determining
what I'm putting through the FOH, and actually I don't want him creating
problems with the rest of the monitoring situation. Kill his submix and
feed him what he wants.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Shawn" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I know there is no hard fast answer. I’m just looking for a
ballpark.
We have at least two Christmas parties to play this upcoming season,
one of which is black tie for 1000 guests and will pay us upward of
$3000.00.
One of the two is giving us two hours between load in and the start of
the party.
My first impression is that we cannot set up in that amount of time,
much less get a good sound-check.
So here’s our setup:
4 vocalists, 2 guitars, keyboards, bass and drums.
The drums will be mixed onstage and the rest will be run down the 8
channel snake to the 16 channel Behringer board (hope to upgrade this
soon)
From there the signal goes to two mains power amps crossed over and
powering a 2x15 pair of subs and two-way JBLs on the top.
We have one monitor mix into two amps running 4 wedges and one aux
that we use for effects.
Of course there are eqs between the board and the amps.
We also spend a little extra time and send, a variety of ways, each
instrument’s signal to a keyboard amp facing the drummer so he
can hear everything without having instruments in the monitor mix. We
use side fills as well.
The drummer uses a plexi-glass shield.
Questions:
How fast should we be able to set this up?
How long should a sound-check take for a band of this size?
Since the drums are close miked with clip on mics should we be able to
get a drum mix in a sub-mixer that will work for most rooms? Or are
there eq issues that will change from room to room.

Thanks in advance,
Shawn