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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
223rem wrote:
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? Only partly, because you're making several huge assumptions about price vs. quality in audio. As a start it might help to actually find out what DACs are in particular pieces of CD gear. Economies of scale can allow the majors to use chips in their AVRS that are as good, or better, than those found in boutique players costing several times as much. But it is certainly true that to listen to a *player's* DACs, you have to use its analog outs. Otherwise you are using it as a transport only. -- -S maybe they wanna rock. maybe they need to rock. Maybe it's for the money? But That's none of our business..our business as fans is to rock with them. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On May 10, 12:52*am, 223rem wrote:
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. Depends what you mean by "superior." If you mean "audibly superior," then, no, high-end players are no better at D/A conversion than most inexpensive models. D/A conversion is, at this stage, a trivial process that even really cheap chips can do cleanly. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. This is true. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Unless you're looking for distorted sound (or wishful thinking), there's no such thing as superior CD playback anymore. bob |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On May 10, 12:52 am, 223rem wrote:
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? There is not much about a CD player that is exotic these days. Relatively low-cost players can sound very good regardless of which output is used. In principle, there is no reason why a $20 CD player couldn't provide good results although I would not recommending such a unit for a variety of reasons aside from sound quality. If you go through the RAHE archive you can find many recommendations for CD players in the $150 or so price range that provide excellent sound. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
223rem wrote:
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end) CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as
a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high quality DAC)? |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
"223rem" wrote in message
... OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high quality DAC)? It will be as good as the DAC in your receiver. These days it is hard to make a bad DAC, so I would expect that the sound would be as good from a cheapo CD player used as a transport as from a "high quality" CD player using analogue outputs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
"Norman M. Schwartz" wrote in message
... 223rem wrote: My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end) CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard. Indeed. If I were to be in the market for a more expensive CD player, the first thing I'd do is make sure it will play everything I throw at it, and do it without burps, belches or other discontinuities. I see no reason to buy any player that does not play all discs of the genus CD or DVD. Norm Strong |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On Fri, 9 May 2008 21:52:02 -0700, 223rem wrote
(in article ): My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? First of all, if you take the digital output and plug that into an amplifier, all you will get is "computer noise" (actually, you likely won't get anything that you can actually hear, at all.) because you must go through some kind of DAC first. :- But makers of high-end CD players do a number of things to justify their price. Many use special transports (the mechanical part of the player) designed to reduce jitter and stabilize the CD as it spins. Many use special clock circuits, again to reduce jitter and some separate the analog power supply from the digital power supply, in an effort to keep digital clocking noise out of the music. Some use expensive DACs designed to reduce quantization error by making each stair-step more precisely the same size. Others use discrete transistor or even tube analog stages over IC operational amplifiers for "better sound". And still others use such tricks as processing a 16-bit CD with a 24-bit DAC and oversampling at 96 KHz. None of these measures will hurt the sound of the CD, and on a theoretical level, many of these things should be improvements over a cheap CD player with a cheap, run-of-the-mill chip set. The problem is that nobody has been able demonstrate that any of these "featured improvements", either alone or in concert with others, makes for better CD playback. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:31:21 -0700, 223rem wrote
(in article ): OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high quality DAC)? You can't just plug a digital output into an amplifier (unless that amp has a on-board Digital-to-Analog converter). Even if it does, its a toss-up as to whether or not the DAC in the receiver (amp) is any better than the one in the CD player. Mostly the DACs in receivers are for decoding 5.1 and DTS sound from video DVDs (although they will play regular CDs). Mostly because it's easier to run one digital coaxial cable or optical TOSLINK cable from one's DVD player to one's receiver than it is to run SIX cables carrying the already decoded 5.1 or DTS audio to a receiver. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:29:27 -0700, Norman M. Schwartz wrote
(in article ): 223rem wrote: My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end) CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard. Most CD players these days, irrespective of cost or pretension will play CD-R's and even rewritable CD-Rs. But the previous poster has brought-up a good point. If a high-end player won't playa CD-R, my advice is give it a miss. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
"223rem" wrote in message
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. Far more true in the past. Today, Digital-To-Analog converters that are vastly superior to the inherent limitations of the audio CD format cost far less. There is hardly any justification to skip on this part in players costing more than about $80. Converters that underperform the format are still used in optical players priced below about $50. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; That's just plain wrong. The digital outputs of CD players bypass the internal converters. you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. While 20 dollar CD players underperform the maximum capabilites of the player, many of them perform well enough that the limitations of the origional recording remains the limit on sound quality. 40 dollar DVD players usually come within a few dB of exploiting the limitations of the format, and vastly outperform the limitations of the recordings. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. The room that the recording was made in, the microphones, the speakers, and the room that the recording is played in are the strongest limitations on the sound quality of a well-made CD. Am I right? I think you have just about everything wrong. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
"223rem" wrote in message
OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high quality DAC)? If the receiver has digital inputs, yes. Receiver DACs generally outperform the limitations of the CD format. In addition, most low and medium priced surround receivers convert all inputs to digital for the purpose of various processing steps. For example, this kind of conversion allows avoiding the use of relatively expensive high quality 6 and 8-channel volume controls. The quality of this conversion is just a little bit better or about the same as the intherent limitations of the CD format. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
"223rem" wrote in message
My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. One other relevant issue is the fact that many high end optical disc players are either mass-market optical disc players with a revised front panel or mass-market optical disc players placed inside a larger and fancier box, or are composed of the electronic components of a mass-market optical disc players repackaged. There may be some proprietary circuit modifications or add-ons, but their technical benefits are often questionable. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
Sonnova wrote:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:29:27 -0700, Norman M. Schwartz wrote (in article ): 223rem wrote: My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality amplifier. Am I right? Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end) CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard. Most CD players these days, irrespective of cost or pretension will play CD-R's and even rewritable CD-Rs. But the previous poster has brought-up a good point. If a high-end player won't playa CD-R, my advice is give it a miss. Apparently some optical disc players are very sensitive to the dye formulation which goes into recordable media. One can't forsee picking up a batch of media which won't playe properly. However, e.g., if Taiyo Yuden works well in a player and you are satisfied in limiting yourself to their product AND assuming that TY adheres to their same dye formulation, then you are OK. However I wouldn't want to count on it. In this regard the salesman informed me that in his experience inexpensive disc players (whether it be one of the 'universal' optical disc players, or not) would perform better than did the high end player hooked up in their showroom. I have a large collection of CD-Rs, some of which happened to be on sale and therefore the least costly at a given time, others are TDKs and were actually TDK branded and outstanding in the early days of CD-R, but nowadays are usually CMC Magnetics, and even many Taiyo Yudens, etc., etc. If I had to choose between buying a high end player vs. one of the garden variety type, in the hope that all my recordable discs (including re-writables) were compatible with it, it seems that I would be forced to pick one of the latter variety. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Q re high quality CD players
On Sun, 11 May 2008 08:02:58 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "223rem" wrote in message My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. One other relevant issue is the fact that many high end optical disc players are either mass-market optical disc players with a revised front panel or mass-market optical disc players placed inside a larger and fancier box, or are composed of the electronic components of a mass-market optical disc players repackaged. There may be some proprietary circuit modifications or add-ons, but their technical benefits are often questionable. They have to add something to justify their prices :- I'm often flabergasted at some of the CD player prices these days, not to mention things like $20,000 outboard DACs, and $10,000 master clock units! When all is said and done, they don't sound any different than my Sony XA777ES Super Audio Disc player, which, while definitely not cheap kit, is certainly not even in the same ballpark, price-wise, with some of these players. |
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