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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
I just finished reading about an audio amp called the Leben CS-300XS
Integrated amplifier. http://www.lebenhifi.com/products/cs300.html It's Japanese, and as I was looking at it, something about it struck me as being VERY familiar It looks a lot like the Eico stuff that was popular with average income audiophiles in the early 1960's. It has a gold colored front panel, gray case, tone controls, etc. It also has a familiar tube complement. Each channel consists of a single 12AX7 (ECC83) dual-triode, and two 6BQ5 (EL84) miniature beam-power pentodes as push-pull output tubes. In it's XS configuration, it puts out 15 Watts/channel RMS and without the XS suffix, the amp is 12 Watts RMS per channel. So i went looking for the Eico equivalent that a friend of mine owns (more about that later). I found it. It's called the HF-81. http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/ This amp also used a pair of EL84 output tubes But gave 14 Watts/channel. Likewise, this little amp drove those EL84's with a 12AX7 (ECC83) as both a voltage amp (1/2) and a phase inverter (the other half) - just like the Leben. Both amps are of classic Williamson configuration and their schematic layouts are practically identical. However, there, the similarity comparison sort of falls apart. The Leben has no phono section while the Eico does. The Eico also has two more stages of voltage amplification per channel bringing the tube complement to 10 for the Eico vs 6 for the Leben. On the Leben's back apron, we find a set of 5-way binding posts for speakers and a switch to select either the 4 or 8 Ohm taps on the output transformers compared with those lousy bakelite screw terminal strips for the speaker wires on the Eico. The Leben also sports high-quality, gold-plated RCA jacks for the inputs and tape outs while the Eico uses those ubiquitous and awful tin-plated RCAs mounted on a bakelite backing with those ceramic insulators in the middle. The biggest difference, however, was in price. While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now. I realize that things are a lot more expensive than they were in 1962 (a 2009 US Dollar being worth about EIGHT Cents in 1962 money) but even with prices being 12X what they were, an amp like this should cost no more than about $800. But the Leben is not 12X the new price of this Eico, its FIFTY times the 1962 price of the Eico! Generally speaking, it's the fact that modern High-End equipment is simply out of sight that causes people to look upon this hobby with a jaundiced eye. I was hooked on Hi-Fi as a kid, as I'm sure most of the readers of this forum were. decent equipment was available for the kind of money the average teen could afford from a summer or after-school job. Today's high-end stuff, even modest stuff like this little Leben amp, is out of reach for all but the richest of teens. So they bypass high-end gear altogether and buy a cheap Japanese brand receiver and a cheap CD deck. I'm not saying that this cheap mass-market stuff isn't perfectly adequate, but what I am saying is that it causes today's kids to bypass the high-end altogether. Even when they grow up and get decent jobs, having never been admitted "to the fold", they will, likely, never be high-end customers. And as we Boomers who got hooked on the hobby early on pass into our limited income dotage (and beyond), there is no one to take our place. Prices like this are what is keeping youth away from the hobby in droves. It's just gonna die, gentlemen, no matter what you might think of the high-end personally, we're going to lose an industry. I promised that I would tell you about my friend Roy's HF-81. OK. Roy bought his HF-81 in 2001 off-of E-Bay. He paid about $120 for it IIRC. The first order of business was the power supply. Those multi-section "can" style electrolytic filter caps aren't available any more, so he replaced that with individual electrolytics beneath the chassis (and bypassed them with polypropylenes, of course). Next he replaces all the caps in the audio path with more polypropylenes and he replaced the ceramic caps with polystyrenes. All of the carbon composition resistors (except those in the power supply) he replaced with metal film resistors. and he cleaned all the potentiometers and switches. All tubes were replaced and the outputs re-biased with the addition of a pot in place of the fixed bias resistors. Other than that He ended-up spending less than $300 overall for parts and a few hours labor. Driving a pair of fairly efficient mini-monitors (I forget which ones) the amp sounds great. Even the phono preamp is quiet with it's low-noise resistors. I'll bet it sounds every bit as good as that $3500 Leben! |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Sonnova wrote:
[ bunch of stuff snipped ] While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now. I realize that things are a lot more expensive than they were in 1962 (a 2009 US Dollar being worth about EIGHT Cents in 1962 money) but even with prices being 12X what they were, an amp like this should cost no more than about $800. But the Leben is not 12X the new price of this Eico, its FIFTY times the 1962 price of the Eico! Generally speaking, it's the fact that modern High-End equipment is simply out of sight that causes people to look upon this hobby with a jaundiced eye. I was hooked on Hi-Fi as a kid, as I'm sure most of the readers of this forum were. decent equipment was available for the kind of money the average teen could afford from a summer or after-school job. Today's high-end stuff, even modest stuff like this little Leben amp, is out of reach for all but the richest of teens. So they bypass high-end gear altogether and buy a cheap Japanese brand receiver and a cheap CD deck. I'm not saying that this cheap mass-market stuff isn't perfectly adequate, but what I am saying is that it causes today's kids to bypass the high-end altogether. Even when they grow up and get decent jobs, having never been admitted "to the fold", they will, likely, never be high-end customers. And as we Boomers who got hooked on the hobby early on pass into our limited income dotage (and beyond), there is no one to take our place. Prices like this are what is keeping youth away from the hobby in droves. It's just gonna die, gentlemen, no matter what you might think of the high-end personally, we're going to lose an industry. I would guess you don't spend much time around kids today. Today's kids grew up with cell phones and iPods. They listen to music that isn't designed to take advantage of "high-end" audio gear. CDs? Forget it, they download whatever they want. High fidelity audio to them means a massive subwoofer for their car or PC. The world has changed and they consider us old f#@ts to be the ones left behind. |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
I just finished reading about an audio amp called the Leben CS-300XS Integrated amplifier. http://www.lebenhifi.com/products/cs300.html It's Japanese, and as I was looking at it, something about it struck me as being VERY familiar It looks a lot like the Eico stuff that was popular with average income audiophiles in the early 1960's. It has a gold colored front panel, gray case, tone controls, etc. It also has a familiar tube complement. Each channel consists of a single 12AX7 (ECC83) dual-triode, and two 6BQ5 (EL84) miniature beam-power pentodes as push-pull output tubes. In it's XS configuration, it puts out 15 Watts/channel RMS and without the XS suffix, the amp is 12 Watts RMS per channel. Well my friend, the real problem is that you think that a piece of retro-technology like this somehow relates to the hifi hobby in 2009. I'm not sure how that level of technology ever related to serious audiophiles. The truth is that I wouldn't have bought the lebenhifi amp even back in the day when tubes were all we had. I had plenty of opportunities, as I worked in a Lafayette radio store that sold their equivalent product, the LA224, for about $50 assembled. The LA224 might have even been twice the amplifier as the lebenhifi, with more like 20 wpc and a real phono preamp: http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/lafayette_la_224b.html We also sold Eico kits. I built and for several years listened through an Eico ST-70, which was really a pretty serious piece of work with push-pull 7591s and serious output transformers. But, that was about as low as I ever went, except for the amps I designed and built from parts scrapped out of old car radios and home hifis, along with Lafayette's best output transformers. Another poster correctly pointed out that for the current generation of music lovers, even CDs are becoming obsolete. |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Come now Sonnova, as we've both recently agreed, there are some highly
credible pieces of kit available today that provide a very respectible high-end result for pretty small outlay of cash. The fact that such items don't tend to be mentioned in the hi-fi press or appear in your typical hi-fi store is another story, but I have to say I wish, when I set out on the hi-fi discovery journey 30 years or so ago, that such quality sound could be achieved at commodity prices. Sure there are the amps and CD players etc with stratospheric prices with promises of sound like you've never experienced before, but there always have been and probably always will. IMHO what's needed is to provide more guidance to the novice who is setting out on this hobby to explain to them that it's not all about huge sums of money, crazy wires with mystical properties and the rest of the nonsensical mumbo jumbo that is normally associated with hi-fi. It's more about sensible selection of gear and developing an understanding of what really matters from both a technical and audio appreciation level. Unfortunately I don't see the hi-fi magazines doing this, yet these are naturally the places that a novice will turn to in the first instance. I have to say that over the last few years this group has been a great benefit to me. Through it I've learnt a lot about what really matters and what can and can't make a difference. I've learned about and obtained pointers to equipment that I'd have never discovered otherwise. I've gone as far as to suggest in another hi-fi forum that anyone who considers himself or herself an audiophile should make it their business to watch and learn from this group. So I don't think it's dying, but there sure is a lot of disinformation out there and that must confuse many people, some of whom will simply give up at the apparent cost and quackery involved in hi-fi as a hobby...which has to be a shame. On 25 Aug 2009 23:59:24 GMT, Sonnova wrote: I just finished reading about an audio amp called the Leben CS-300XS Integrated amplifier. http://www.lebenhifi.com/products/cs300.html It's Japanese, and as I was looking at it, something about it struck me as being VERY familiar It looks a lot like the Eico stuff that was popular with average income audiophiles in the early 1960's. It has a gold colored front panel, gray case, tone controls, etc. It also has a familiar tube complement. Each channel consists of a single 12AX7 (ECC83) dual-triode, and two 6BQ5 (EL84) miniature beam-power pentodes as push-pull output tubes. In it's XS configuration, it puts out 15 Watts/channel RMS and without the XS suffix, the amp is 12 Watts RMS per channel. So i went looking for the Eico equivalent that a friend of mine owns (more about that later). I found it. It's called the HF-81. http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/ This amp also used a pair of EL84 output tubes But gave 14 Watts/channel. Likewise, this little amp drove those EL84's with a 12AX7 (ECC83) as both a voltage amp (1/2) and a phase inverter (the other half) - just like the Leben. Both amps are of classic Williamson configuration and their schematic layouts are practically identical. However, there, the similarity comparison sort of falls apart. The Leben has no phono section while the Eico does. The Eico also has two more stages of voltage amplification per channel bringing the tube complement to 10 for the Eico vs 6 for the Leben. On the Leben's back apron, we find a set of 5-way binding posts for speakers and a switch to select either the 4 or 8 Ohm taps on the output transformers compared with those lousy bakelite screw terminal strips for the speaker wires on the Eico. The Leben also sports high-quality, gold-plated RCA jacks for the inputs and tape outs while the Eico uses those ubiquitous and awful tin-plated RCAs mounted on a bakelite backing with those ceramic insulators in the middle. The biggest difference, however, was in price. While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now. I realize that things are a lot more expensive than they were in 1962 (a 2009 US Dollar being worth about EIGHT Cents in 1962 money) but even with prices being 12X what they were, an amp like this should cost no more than about $800. But the Leben is not 12X the new price of this Eico, its FIFTY times the 1962 price of the Eico! Generally speaking, it's the fact that modern High-End equipment is simply out of sight that causes people to look upon this hobby with a jaundiced eye. I was hooked on Hi-Fi as a kid, as I'm sure most of the readers of this forum were. decent equipment was available for the kind of money the average teen could afford from a summer or after-school job. Today's high-end stuff, even modest stuff like this little Leben amp, is out of reach for all but the richest of teens. So they bypass high-end gear altogether and buy a cheap Japanese brand receiver and a cheap CD deck. I'm not saying that this cheap mass-market stuff isn't perfectly adequate, but what I am saying is that it causes today's kids to bypass the high-end altogether. Even when they grow up and get decent jobs, having never been admitted "to the fold", they will, likely, never be high-end customers. And as we Boomers who got hooked on the hobby early on pass into our limited income dotage (and beyond), there is no one to take our place. Prices like this are what is keeping youth away from the hobby in droves. It's just gonna die, gentlemen, no matter what you might think of the high-end personally, we're going to lose an industry. I promised that I would tell you about my friend Roy's HF-81. OK. Roy bought his HF-81 in 2001 off-of E-Bay. He paid about $120 for it IIRC. The first order of business was the power supply. Those multi-section "can" style electrolytic filter caps aren't available any more, so he replaced that with individual electrolytics beneath the chassis (and bypassed them with polypropylenes, of course). Next he replaces all the caps in the audio path with more polypropylenes and he replaced the ceramic caps with polystyrenes. All of the carbon composition resistors (except those in the power supply) he replaced with metal film resistors. and he cleaned all the potentiometers and switches. All tubes were replaced and the outputs re-biased with the addition of a pot in place of the fixed bias resistors. Other than that He ended-up spending less than $300 overall for parts and a few hours labor. Driving a pair of fairly efficient mini-monitors (I forget which ones) the amp sounds great. Even the phono preamp is quiet with it's low-noise resistors. I'll bet it sounds every bit as good as that $3500 Leben! --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 26, 9:56*am, Rob Tweed wrote:
So I don't think it's dying, but there sure is a lot of disinformation out there and that must confuse many people, some of whom will simply give up at the apparent cost and quackery involved in hi-fi as a hobby...which has to be a shame. Amen to this! I still maintain that with patience, more patience and a bit of care, one can assemble a creditable-sounding stereo of a mix of vintage and new items for $1,000 or less. Patience, care and pure blind luck will do that for $500 or less. Certainly as good-or-better than any sort of MP3 based system typical of the present generation. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 26, 10:28*am, " wrote:
On Aug 26, 9:56*am, Rob Tweed wrote: So I don't think it's dying, but there sure is a lot of disinformation out there and that must confuse many people, some of whom will simply give up at the apparent cost and quackery involved in hi-fi as a hobby...which has to be a shame. Amen to this! I still maintain that with patience, more patience and a bit of care, one can assemble a creditable-sounding stereo of a mix of vintage and new items for $1,000 or less. Patience, care and pure blind luck will do that for $500 or less. Is that path supposed to preserve the industry/hobby or kill it off faster? Peter Wieck |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:48:28 -0700, dave a wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: [ bunch of stuff snipped ] While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now. I realize that things are a lot more expensive than they were in 1962 (a 2009 US Dollar being worth about EIGHT Cents in 1962 money) but even with prices being 12X what they were, an amp like this should cost no more than about $800. But the Leben is not 12X the new price of this Eico, its FIFTY times the 1962 price of the Eico! Generally speaking, it's the fact that modern High-End equipment is simply out of sight that causes people to look upon this hobby with a jaundiced eye. I was hooked on Hi-Fi as a kid, as I'm sure most of the readers of this forum were. decent equipment was available for the kind of money the average teen could afford from a summer or after-school job. Today's high-end stuff, even modest stuff like this little Leben amp, is out of reach for all but the richest of teens. So they bypass high-end gear altogether and buy a cheap Japanese brand receiver and a cheap CD deck. I'm not saying that this cheap mass-market stuff isn't perfectly adequate, but what I am saying is that it causes today's kids to bypass the high-end altogether. Even when they grow up and get decent jobs, having never been admitted "to the fold", they will, likely, never be high-end customers. And as we Boomers who got hooked on the hobby early on pass into our limited income dotage (and beyond), there is no one to take our place. Prices like this are what is keeping youth away from the hobby in droves. It's just gonna die, gentlemen, no matter what you might think of the high-end personally, we're going to lose an industry. I would guess you don't spend much time around kids today. Today's kids grew up with cell phones and iPods. They listen to music that isn't designed to take advantage of "high-end" audio gear. CDs? Forget it, they download whatever they want. High fidelity audio to them means a massive subwoofer for their car or PC. The world has changed and they consider us old f#@ts to be the ones left behind. You're not telling me anything that I don't already know. When I was a kid, 99% of us listened to our music from a "top forty" AM station with a small transistor portable radio held up to our ear, so things haven't changed THAT much in that respect. But there was always a tiny majority of us who wanted more. We bought the affordable components that were the mainstream audio hobby at the time and we grew-up to be audiophiles and transitioned into the high-end movement as the audio hobby migrated to that end of the spectrum in the early 1970's. My point is that for similarly motivated youngsters today, that path doesn't exist. There really aren't any affordable components for them to get interested in audio over. What passes for those components today are cheap receivers purchased from Costco or Sam's Club and cheap, low end Infinity or Japanese speakers to go with them and those, while performance-wise are probably fine, won't lead to high-end audio later, when the kids are adults. Receivers are today's "brown goods" they are not the path to the audio hobby. |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:56:35 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article ): Come now Sonnova, as we've both recently agreed, there are some highly credible pieces of kit available today that provide a very respectible high-end result for pretty small outlay of cash. The fact that such items don't tend to be mentioned in the hi-fi press or appear in your typical hi-fi store is another story, but I have to say I wish, when I set out on the hi-fi discovery journey 30 years or so ago, that such quality sound could be achieved at commodity prices. The point is that these youngsters see only the ads for the really obscenely priced gear and figure that there is no place in that hobby for them (even if they have the interest). Sure there are paths to audio that are affordable, such as used gear and amps like the oft-mentioned Behringer A500, but these are pretty obscure paths. Someone would have to mentor youngsters in that direction, and I don't see that happening either. The average kid with penchant for audio picks up a copy of Stereophile or The Absolute Sound and figures that this hobby, like owing a Ferrari, is, while desirable, something that he'll never be able to achieve. So, he moves on. |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:38:41 -0700, Norman Schwartz wrote
(in article ): On Aug 26, 10:28*am, " wrote: On Aug 26, 9:56*am, Rob Tweed wrote: So I don't think it's dying, but there sure is a lot of disinformation out there and that must confuse many people, some of whom will simply give up at the apparent cost and quackery involved in hi-fi as a hobby...which has to be a shame. Amen to this! I still maintain that with patience, more patience and a bit of care, one can assemble a creditable-sounding stereo of a mix of vintage and new items for $1,000 or less. Patience, care and pure blind luck will do that for $500 or less. Is that path supposed to preserve the industry/hobby or kill it off faster? Peter Wieck One has to start somewhere. I was lucky. By the time I was 12, I was already a rabid audiophile. For my 13th Christmas, my dad gave me a Knight-kit 18-watt mono amplifier (he built it for me) and a 12-inch bass reflex speaker (he built the cabinet himself - being an accomplished amateur cabinet maker as well as an electrical engineer) with a Knight KN-812 12 inch speaker with "whizzer" cone (essentially an Electro-Voice "Wolverine" built for Allied Radio). I already had a BSR record changer (it at least had a 4-pole motor instead of the 2-pole that most cheap changers sported) and a Pickering stereo cartridge. Then about a year later (or maybe for my birthday) I got another, matching, Knight-kit 18-watter, but this time I had to build it myself. My dad supplied another identical bass reflex cabinet and another Knight KN-812 12" speaker. So now I had stereo. A year later, I got to replace my old Heathkit FM2 FM tuner with an Eico HFT-90 and then I got a Knight stereo demodulator kit to go with it (the Eico had a multiplex output on it right after the ratio-detector and in front of the de-emphasis network.). So I was equipped for stereo. This equipment was VERY CHEAP at the time. The amps were $35 each IIRC, the tuner was $40, the speakers were about $20 each, the Multiplex decoder kit was, I believe, $20. I got the BSR changer on sale from Layfayette Radio, on sale, with Pickering magnetic cartridge for about $12. Later, I added a pair of Layfayette Japanese horn tweeters which, I believe, were less than $10 for the pair, to the cabinets my dad built. This system lasted me through college and when I left home to go to my first job, that system went with me. When I was about 16, I replaced the BSR with a Bang & Olufson Beogram belt-drive turntable with arm and integrated "Stereodyne" cartridge. The point is that if someone starts out buying good quality used components when young, he will more likely be willing to upgrade to new stuff as he gets older and more affluent. He won't be buying any audio equipment if he never gets hooked on the hobby. |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:48:28 -0700, dave a wrote (in article ): snip I would guess you don't spend much time around kids today. Sure try not to! :-) snip You're not telling me anything that I don't already know. When I was a kid, 99% of us listened to our music from a "top forty" AM station with a small transistor portable radio held up to our ear, so things haven't changed THAT much in that respect. Actually, I think there is a real qualitative difference. Despite your aversion to MP3's, I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't find a good MP-3 player with decent earbuds to be orders of magnitude better than the AM transistor radio noise we grew up with as youngsters. Or the $800 mediterranean console stereo (aka furniture) with cabinet rattles louder than the music, an AM radio, and a BSR etch-a-sketch. But there was always a tiny majority of us who wanted more. I don't know if that was a minority at all, at the time, but IME it definitely wasn't "tiny". We bought the affordable components that were the mainstream audio hobby at the time and we grew-up to be audiophiles and transitioned into the high-end movement as the audio hobby migrated to that end of the spectrum in the early 1970's. My point is that for similarly motivated youngsters today, That's kind of the point. There are few "similarly motivated" youngsters today. There are many reasons, as we've discussed here previously, but one quite rational reason is likely that a good iPod with moderate bitrate MP-3's is just not anywhere near as objectionable as what we grew up with. If what you start with is pretty darn good, AND it's cheap and portable, there's just not much impetus for most to want to abandon the low cost and convenience to move into "true" hifi. Keith Hughes |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 26, 7:38*pm, Norman Schwartz wrote:
Is that path supposed to preserve the industry/hobby or kill it off faster? Um.... with respect (really), the 'industy' and the 'hobby' are very nearly mutually exclusive in my mind. And the death of the former as presently practiced cannot happen too fast for me. One may always purchase things without the slightest understanding of them. And then be chauffeur-driven through their use such that even their care-and- feeding may be ignored. This is the 'hobby' of a dilletante with no discernable pleasure or utility to it other than the perceived status such ownership may convey. Or, one may have a relationship with one's hobby with the goal of not only enjoying the use of the equipment but perhaps even having an understanding of what it does and how it does it. Those in Japan who choose to build a pretty primitive tube-based integrated amp of limited utility (but not hardly a limited price) are sincerely hoping that their target market is of the dilletante variety, not the relationship sorts. And the sooner they fail in that market the better it is for everyone. Even so, a very few units sold will take them into profit. At this point, I sincerely believe that there is enough high-quality, well-made, easily restored vintage equipment out on the world stage to satisfy the 'hobby' market very nearly into perpetuity. With the exception of speakers and some moving parts where evolution is still possible and still happening (although the crap-to-decent ratio is still increasing) electronics are pretty much at an end-stage of evolution such that the cost-benefit between minimally acceptable and SOTA is not even a factor of 3. The 'industry' and the infrastructure that depends on it that suggest otherwise needs to fail. Really. As to mentoring - I see that as ripples in a pond. Each of the kids has a very good stereo made from my extras and leavings. As do several of my friends - who are now passing them to their kids. Another system is about to leave the house for the apartment of a new graduate- student friend of a friend - no charge (God knows there is any amount of stuff around for this purpose). And young people (anyone less than 30) that I know still seem to recognize the old brands. It is a pleasant hobby that I may pursue at my own pace and per my own inclinations. I am not in competition with anyone, and if mere bragging rights are at stake, *MY* speakers are flatter at a lower and higher frequency than *YOUR* speakers - nyah nayh!!!! (not really, perhaps, but I might claim so). Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:33:30 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: The point is that these youngsters see only the ads for the really obscenely priced gear and figure that there is no place in that hobby for them The young people I see looking at those ads usually laugh at them, an activity that I encourage. That's the point. The stuff is so expensive that to young people who are interested enough in music to perhaps consider the audio hobby laugh at the prices of today's gear. The average kid with penchant for audio picks up a copy of Stereophile or The Absolute Sound and figures that this hobby, like owing a Ferrari, is, while desirable, something that he'll never be able to achieve. One important difference being is that Ferrari will claim an F430 does 0-60 in x seconds, can do a standard slalom in y, and can pull zG on a skid pad. All of which constitute objective claims that, if the car fails, constitute an actionable failure on the part of the manufacturer and dealer. irrelevant. How does one get their money back if, after letting some overpriced piece of swill "break in" for 150% of the right-of-return period, if fails to deliver the "pacing" and "bass slam" promised by the snake-oil merchants? Again, irrelevant. The stuff costs too much by many times. As characterized by the Leben amp I mentioned in my OP, what one gets for their money has absolutely NO relationship to it's performance or build quality. A simple 15 watt/channel Williamson amp, even if it used the best available components shouldn't cost more than $800- $900 TOPS. yet this one is $3500! other modern equipment sold to the audio hobby is similarly over-priced and a bad deal. No wonder few young people are coming into the hobby. |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:37:37 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ): Rob Tweed wrote: So I don't think it's dying, but there sure is a lot of disinformation out there and that must confuse many people, some of whom will simply give up at the apparent cost and quackery involved in hi-fi as a hobby...which has to be a shame. Whether the high-end industry is dead or not is rendered moot by the fact that it is, on any number of measures, utterly irrelevant. For example, despite it's own very narrow view, the high-end audio "industry" is not responsible for any breakthroughs of any kind for at least 4 decades. Economically, it's such an incredibly small market that there are portable music player companies whose engineering budgets exceed that of the entire high-end industry. If the entire industry were to suddenly vanish, the worst that would happen is some partially-unemployed designer-charlatains would end up fully-unemployed charlatains, resulting in them fouling up traffic while they wander off looking for another shill game to play. If you want to look for those responsible for the decay of the high0-end industry, go find the Cardas's and the Pearson's and the Lumley's and the MPingo purveyors line them up against the wall. Yes, unfortunately, there is a lot of charlatanism involved in High-End Audio. But there are good products too. Products that are well designed, well made, measure well, sound good and will last a long time. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. While I'm not a big fan of handguns, there ARE some people you meet when you don't have a hand grenade handy. Now, now. Some of these people HONESTLY believe that wires with the filaments inside wound like nautilus shells and cable elevators do make a difference and its their money. |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 26, 8:37*pm, " wrote:
On Aug 26, 7:38*pm, Norman Schwartz wrote: Is that path supposed to preserve the industry/hobby or kill it off faster? Um.... with respect (really), the 'industy' and the 'hobby' are very nearly mutually exclusive in my mind. And the death of the former as presently practiced cannot happen too fast for me. One may always purchase things without the slightest understanding of them. And then be chauffeur-driven through their use such that even their care-and- feeding may be ignored. Just the wrong analogy, I suppose. While never being "chauffeur- driven, I've been driving cars for over 50 years without knowing a thing about what's going on beneath the hood. (I used to recognize my tires were low on pressure and would do something about myself. Today something lights up on my instrument panel informing me in essence to immediately drive into a dealer at no more than 50mph. The tires that came on my car presumably can't be repaired but have to be replaced, the cost of which is covered by insurance I purchased when I leased the vehicle.) This is the 'hobby' of a dilletante with no discernable pleasure or utility to it other than the perceived status such ownership may convey. That's really false. Outside of one buddy I made by running into at a concert who also just happened to be into audio, and like myself happened to own a SP-3A and Maggies, absolutely no one knows what equipment I own and use and it's there totally for my solitary listening pleasure. At this point, I sincerely believe that there is enough high-quality, well-made, easily restored vintage equipment out on the world stage to satisfy the 'hobby' market very nearly into perpetuity. That's true, but I'm still comfoprted by the fact my Bryston amps have 20 year warranties, however I need Bryston to be in business for that warranty to be of any avail. With the exception of speakers and some moving parts where evolution is still possible and still happening (although the crap-to-decent ratio is still increasing) electronics are pretty much at an end-stage of evolution such that the cost-benefit between minimally acceptable and SOTA is not even a factor of 3. The 'industry' and the infrastructure that depends on it that suggest otherwise needs to fail. Really. When and if the ribbons in my Maggies fail I *really* need Magnepan to be around in order to buy new ones, so I wouldn't care to see them fail. (Those same type ribbons must around for about 20 years, without any improvement, but how does that enable me to obtain replacements if needed?) As to mentoring - I see that as ripples in a pond. Each of the kids has a very good stereo made from my extras and leavings. As do several of my friends - who are now passing them to their kids. Another system is about to leave the house for the apartment of a new graduate- student friend of a friend - no charge (God knows there is any amount of stuff around for this purpose). And young people (anyone less than 30) that I know still seem to recognize the old brands. That's perfectly fine in my eyes. It is a pleasant hobby that I may pursue at my own pace and per my own inclinations. I am not in competition with anyone, and if mere bragging rights are at stake, *MY* speakers are flatter at a lower and higher frequency than *YOUR* speakers - nyah nayh!!!! (not really, perhaps, but I might claim so). Bragging rites come tagging along with virtually every desirable thing man has ever owned; "my cave is both larger and deeper than is yours". Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Again, irrelevant. The stuff costs too much by many times. As
characterized by the Leben amp I mentioned in my OP, what one gets for their money has absolutely NO relationship to it's performance or build quality. A simple 15 watt/channel Williamson amp, even if it used the best available components shouldn't cost more than $800- $900 TOPS. yet this one is $3500! other modern equipment sold to the audio hobby is similarly over-priced and a bad deal. No wonder few young people are coming into the hobby. You have overlooked the factors that affect the "value of money" here, part of the reason that the cost basis is x12 over that period includes the much lower cost of a lot of 'typical' goods due to mass production in cheap labour countries. Items such as high end audio are much less subject to such cost reductions, in particular where they use valve technology that is more or less an irrelevance in industrial terms. I like valves though... We expect electronics goods to be priced like PCs, TVs, etc, and not in the same manner as labour by our peers. How much do you pay a plumber these days? Regards, Paul |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
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#20
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Please note the interpolations - we seem to be discussing at cross-
purposes. On Aug 27, 9:13*am, Norman Schwartz wrote: On Aug 26, 8:37*pm, " wrote: On Aug 26, 7:38*pm, Norman Schwartz wrote: Is that path supposed to preserve the industry/hobby or kill it off faster? Um.... with respect (really), the 'industy' and the 'hobby' are very nearly mutually exclusive in my mind. And the death of the former as presently practiced cannot happen too fast for me. One may always purchase things without the slightest understanding of them. And then be chauffeur-driven through their use such that even their care-and- feeding may be ignored. Just the wrong analogy, I suppose. While never being "chauffeur- driven, I've been driving cars for over 50 years without knowing a thing about what's going on beneath the hood. (I used to recognize my tires were low on pressure and would do something about myself. Today something lights up on my instrument panel informing me in essence to immediately drive into a dealer at no more than 50mph. The tires that came on my car presumably can't be repaired but have to be replaced, the cost of which is covered by insurance I purchased when I leased the vehicle.) Yabbut - you make sure the oil gets changed, the timing belt (if applicable) and other 'regular maintenance' things as needs be done. It is not the chauffeur that does it for you with no thought on your part. This is the 'hobby' of a dilletante with no discernable pleasure or utility to it other than the perceived status such ownership may convey. That's really false. Outside of one buddy I made by running into at a concert who also just happened to be into audio, and like myself happened to own a SP-3A and Maggies, absolutely no one knows what equipment I own and use and it's there totally for my solitary listening pleasure. Operative word was "perceived" - meaning that there are those who would drop their list of gear at any time and in nearly any venue - and it is those for whom the "industry" exists as it is presently practiced and supported. Further, you have likely made few, if any, changes in your main system for a number of years. The dilletante will make changes based on what is in the latest scam-sheet from the latest industrial house-organ existing only to support its advertisers. And, likely, you actually listen to it for pleasure. Dilettantes are very nearly denied that option as they are at the whim of the reviewer-of- the-moment concerning the flavor-of-the-month-until-the-next-issue. Again, why I would like to see this aspect of the industry fail, quickly, permanently and spectacularly as an object lesson for all. The honest brokers will survive - just as honest individuals in any trade or profession survive. At this point, I sincerely believe that there is enough high-quality, well-made, easily restored vintage equipment out on the world stage to satisfy the 'hobby' market very nearly into perpetuity. That's true, but I'm still comfoprted by the fact my Bryston amps have 20 year warranties, however I need Bryston to be in business for that warranty to be of any avail. I would posit that anything so well made as the maker would give a 20- year warranty is sufficiently well made as any reasonably competent tech could also repair it. Perhaps not 'for free' - but there will not be a danger of its turning into an anchor any time in the future whether Bryston sticks around or not. Further to this, you are mixing apples (legitimate makers with a legitimate product at a fair price) with Oranges (makers turning out a primitive product using primitive means and methods at far-from-primitive prices). With the exception of speakers and some moving parts where evolution is still possible and still happening (although the crap-to-decent ratio is still increasing) electronics are pretty much at an end-stage of evolution such that the cost-benefit between minimally acceptable and SOTA is not even a factor of 3. The 'industry' and the infrastructure that depends on it that suggest otherwise needs to fail. Really. When and if the ribbons in my Maggies fail I *really* need Magnepan to be around in order to buy new ones, so I wouldn't care to see them fail. (Those same type ribbons must around for about 20 years, without any improvement, but how does that enable me to obtain replacements if needed?) See "Legitimate makers..." above. I also keep Maggies and would like them to remain in business into the future - and they show every sign of doing so. Got them used, of course. As to mentoring - I see that as ripples in a pond. Each of the kids has a very good stereo made from my extras and leavings. As do several of my friends - who are now passing them to their kids. Another system is about to leave the house for the apartment of a new graduate- student friend of a friend - no charge (God knows there is any amount of stuff around for this purpose). And young people (anyone less than 30) that I know still seem to recognize the old brands. That's perfectly fine in my eyes. It is a pleasant hobby that I may pursue at my own pace and per my own inclinations. I am not in competition with anyone, and if mere bragging rights are at stake, *MY* speakers are flatter at a lower and higher frequency than *YOUR* speakers - nyah nayh!!!! (not really, perhaps, but I might claim so). Bragging rites come tagging along with virtually every desirable thing man has ever owned; "my cave is both larger and deeper than is yours". Probably, and I would add dryer and warmer - take that any way you want. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper),
the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now." Eico product were not known for their quality, and even back in 1962, $70 was probably too much for that amp. If anyone is charging as much as you quote above for a VACUUM TUBE based amp today - that is why the audiophile industry is failing. Such sellers are thieves, and any buyers are fools. Vacuum tube technology is obsolescent, if not obsolete - especially for high-end audio. http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm The audiophile hobby seems to have largely fallen into the hands of unscrupulous manufacturers and retailers, and is patronized mostly by people that have more money than common sense. |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:07:45 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:37:37 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote Whether the high-end industry is dead or not is rendered moot by the fact that it is, on any number of measures, utterly irrelevant. If you want to look for those responsible for the decay of the high0-end industry, go find the Cardas's and the Pearson's and the Lumley's and the MPingo purveyors line them up against the wall. Yes, unfortunately, there is a lot of charlatanism involved in High-End Audio. But there are good products too. Products that are well designed, well made, measure well, sound good and will last a long time. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Unfortunately, the high end audio business has already done it to itself. The crazed yahoos running around selling badly designed equipment and pure fluffy nonsense has pushed the realm farther to the point of total irrelevancy, carrying the rest with it. In addition to the various "manufacturers", we can lay the blame solidly at the feet of the high-end press. While I'm not a big fan of handguns, there ARE some people you meet when you don't have a hand grenade handy. Now, now. Some of these people HONESTLY believe that wires with the filaments inside wound like nautilus shells and cable elevators do make a difference and its their money. Fine, so you're insisting that I differentiate between them. Fine: it's the difference between putting them out of their misery, or putting them out of ours. Point is, I'm in favor of putting them out of MY misery. I do that by ignoring their idiocy and putting others straight about it whenever possible. |
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#23
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:26:15 -0700, wrote (in article ): snip Actually, I think there is a real qualitative difference. Despite your aversion to MP3's, I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't find a good MP-3 player with decent earbuds to be orders of magnitude better than the AM transistor radio noise we grew up with as youngsters. Or the $800 mediterranean console stereo (aka furniture) with cabinet rattles louder than the music, an AM radio, and a BSR etch-a-sketch. That's not the point. The point is that the AM transistor radio was my generation's MP3 player. Well yes, and "your" generations' "MP3" player was quite pathetic, and horribly so in comparison to even the most meager "HiFi" systems. And just as most of my contemporaries never graduated from listening to AM to becoming audio hobbyists, neither will the MP3 generation. True, but not relevant to the point I was making. The *relative* percentage of those "graduating" will continue to shrink as the delta between the quality they *have* and the best they *could* have grows ever smaller. E.g., give a 1000 kids a pocket AM radio, and another 1000 an iPod/MP3 player. Have each listen to the same music. The AM group will listen to a beatup LP (if they're lucky) or a tape in sad shape, while the iPod group listens to a moderate bitrate MP3 from a clean digital source. My bet is that the AM group will have many more kids saying "man, I gotta get some better tunes..." than will the iPod group. While conversely, many of those "potential graduates" from the AM group would have been satisfied with the iPod, never having the impetus to go searching for better. snip The few "similarly motivated" youngsters today look the prices for todays audio hobby grade gear and say: "They've got to be kidding" . The stuff is off the charts and turns many who perhaps WOULD be motivated to be audio hobbyists completely OFF! No argument there (although possibly you were better off than I was, because HiFi was still damn steep for my pockets back then as well). My point was, given the much higher "entry level" for music listeners these days, there will be increasingly fewer "similarly motivated" youngsters to *get* turned off by the price. Taken in conjunction with all the other reasons (previously discussed in other threads), the additional 'demotivator' provided by easy access to decent sound just adds a few more Newtons pushing stereo HiFi towards the event horizon. Personally, for music listening, I'll continue to be a stereo dinosaur...but the tar pits are multiplying fast. Keith Hughes |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:19:36 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ): "While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now." Eico product were not known for their quality, and even back in 1962, $70 was probably too much for that amp. If anyone is charging as much as you quote above for a VACUUM TUBE based amp today - that is why the audiophile industry is failing. Such sellers are thieves, and any buyers are fools. Vacuum tube technology is obsolescent, if not obsolete - especially for high-end audio. http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm The audiophile hobby seems to have largely fallen into the hands of unscrupulous manufacturers and retailers, and is patronized mostly by people that have more money than common sense. I disagree that vacuum tubes are either obsolete or obsolescent. There are a lot of companies still designing and making the stuff and it will be viable well into the foreseeable future. |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 27, 7:17*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations - we seem to be discussing at cross- purposes. Yabbut - you make sure the oil gets changed, the timing belt (if applicable) and other 'regular maintenance' things as needs be done. It is not the chauffeur that does it for you with no thought on your part. Also wrong. The dealer phones me when it's time for any service asking wilI I be waiting or return to pick up the car when done. (If lucky they might even take me back home and back again after it's done.) All normal wear and tear will be at no charge for the remainder of my lease, after which time I'll lease a new car. I both don't know nor care to know what's going on beneath the hood, same with respect to anything in my listening room. The latter adds up to more time being available for listening to music. I would posit that anything so well made as the maker would give a 20- year warranty is sufficiently well made as any reasonably competent tech could also repair it. I wouldn't be happy about just anyone in any service facility sticking any old part in one of my Bryston components. I prefer knowing that Bryston performs such service for all the too obvious reasons. Perhaps not 'for free' - but there will not be a danger of its turning into an anchor any time in the future whether Bryston sticks around or not. Further to this, you are mixing apples (legitimate makers with a legitimate product at a fair price) with Oranges (makers turning out a primitive product using primitive means and methods at far-from-primitive prices). Your analogy is limited in the sense that it's to my advantage my local fruit store sells both apples and oranges, as he needs to do in order to remain in business. That fruit store assits me in maintaining my equipment and even has travelled to my home to do repairs, thereby saving me a lot of time and effort and costs. I'm more than willing to pay for such service wanting to stay on his 'good side'. Moreover this way I stand in his favor being welcomed into his store to audition equipment and take home 'loaners' on weekends. All of which opposes death of the high end hobby. When and if the ribbons in my Maggies fail I *really* need Magnepan to be around in order to buy new ones, so I wouldn't care to see them fail. (Those same type ribbons must around for about 20 years, without any improvement, but how does that enable me to obtain replacements if needed?) See "Legitimate makers..." above. *I also keep Maggies and would like them to remain in business into the future - and they show every sign of doing so. Got them used, of course. That was my original point; if everyone followed your path Magnepan wouldn't any longer be able to make profit, and eventually fail. That's not of advanatge to their loyal customers to which the industry/ hobby depend. Bragging rites come tagging along with virtually every desirable thing man has ever owned; "my cave is both larger and deeper than is yours". Probably, and I would add dryer and warmer - take that any way you want. Amen to that (any ways). Peter Wieck |
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#26
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:19:36 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): "While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now." Eico product were not known for their quality, and even back in 1962, $70 was probably too much for that amp. If anyone is charging as much as you quote above for a VACUUM TUBE based amp today - that is why the audiophile industry is failing. Such sellers are thieves, and any buyers are fools. Vacuum tube technology is obsolescent, if not obsolete - especially for high-end audio. http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm The audiophile hobby seems to have largely fallen into the hands of unscrupulous manufacturers and retailers, and is patronized mostly by people that have more money than common sense. I disagree that vacuum tubes are either obsolete or obsolescent. There are a lot of companies still designing and making the stuff and it will be viable well into the foreseeable future. Did you read my article at http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm ? No power amp with an output transformer can possibly have the low frequency power bandwidth that direct-coupled solid state amps do. |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Sonnova wrote:
I disagree that vacuum tubes are either obsolete or obsolescent. There are a lot of companies still designing and making the stuff and it will be viable well into the foreseeable future. They are certainly obsolete as far as home audio audio goes. Absolutely and complete obsolete. The only connection to audio would be as transmitter tubes for radio or television. Of course, some people like antiques or ersatz antiques. For these things tubes are the cats meow. I actually think it fun to think that such primitive circuitry can sound perfectly OK. Doug McDonald |
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#28
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 27, 11:51*pm, Sonnova wrote:
I disagree that vacuum tubes are either obsolete or obsolescent. There are a lot of companies still designing and making the stuff and it will be viable well into the foreseeable future. Oh, but they are. There has not been a substantial new design in the industry since the 60s - and even that is a stretch, nor do they do anything any better than much more efficient solid-state devices - in very nearly every case imaginable, a solid-state device could do it better, with less distortion in a smaller package with less heat, at a lower cost using less energy and so on and so forth. Further to that there are several things that tubes cannot do at all in any way that is viable to the audio-hobby - such as do a D/A converter NOTE: Viable. Not impossible. Consider that the only way any sort of tube equipment might be considered "high end" is and will be forever based on the cost index vs. the measurements index. And at the heart of this discussion - being a Japanese firm making a nobley priced but ignoble amplifier primitive even by those same 1960s standards -and its perceived effect on the hobby. And also entirely beside the point of the hobby and the entire solid vs. hollow issue anyway. The hobby ain't nohow dying. That is not how hobbies work. Various industries and infrastructures that are supported by the hobby are becoming moribund due to their general stupidity and goal of exploitation without providing sufficient substance to justify it. When I was "coming up" in the hobby, there were basic electronic kits out there that covered everything from little neon random light blinkers through 1-tube radios and so forth. And kits from substantial audio makers including Scott and Fisher, not to mention Heath, Eico, Dyna and any of several others sold very nearly from every street corner in every village and town. Today, those low-cost entry options have been driven from the market. Those in the hobby today are required to be either much wealthier if they are to purchase "new" equipment, or much more versatile if they are to work with existing and vintage equipment. Or, they go to Best Buy and get what comes off the shelf for their 'entertainment center'. So - in my *opinion* the Audio Industry and the Audio Hobby are engaged in a cold war such that the survival of both are threatened. There is no significant effort at capturing the young, entry-level customer who could become a hobbyist, and as with the proverbial Vanishing Bird, the bulk of the self-designated high-end industry is engaged in flying in ever-decreasing circles until it disappears up its own fundament. And as far as I am concerned that cannot happen fast enough. Again, those companies making a good product at a reasonable price will survive - even a tiny fraction of a world population of 6+ billion is a substantial number of potential customers. That is a given. But if the Industry wishes to grow and prosper, they will need to change their direction and attitude - they will need to capture the young audience and make something that both appeals to them and becomes a conduit to something better.... Little story: When our son-in-law was still a relatively recent acquisition to the family, he purchased on of the early MP3-type players for our daughter. She, being used to my systems and not really liking headphones for all-the-time use wanted a way to play it through speakers. Sitting in a closet was an AR 622 self-powered sub-sat system that I had snagged in a trade one day but never used. That was a number of years and two grandkids ago - today his system is a mixture of AR, Revox and vintage Harmon-Kardon, includes both open reel tape and vinyl sources, and more. And today, he does his own bird- dogging, basic repairs and trouble-shooting. All it took was the hook. Imagine if he had access to an equivalent of Dyna, Heath or Eico kits? Again, the hobby is not the problem. The Industry that depends on it (NOT the other way around) is the problem. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#29
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:02:14 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:19:36 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): "While the Eico was priced at $70 in 1962 (and the kit somewhat cheaper), the little Leben is a whopping THREE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED 2009 US Dollars! Now." Eico product were not known for their quality, and even back in 1962, $70 was probably too much for that amp. If anyone is charging as much as you quote above for a VACUUM TUBE based amp today - that is why the audiophile industry is failing. Such sellers are thieves, and any buyers are fools. Vacuum tube technology is obsolescent, if not obsolete - especially for high-end audio. http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm The audiophile hobby seems to have largely fallen into the hands of unscrupulous manufacturers and retailers, and is patronized mostly by people that have more money than common sense. I disagree that vacuum tubes are either obsolete or obsolescent. There are a lot of companies still designing and making the stuff and it will be viable well into the foreseeable future. Did you read my article at http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm ? No power amp with an output transformer can possibly have the low frequency power bandwidth that direct-coupled solid state amps do. And that is a deal killer, how? I too am an electronic engineer. I realize that tubes CAN be inferior to solid-state for bass. I also know that I prefer the musicality of good tube midrange and high-frequencies to that of transistors. But I have solved the problem quite adequately in my own system. My Martin-Logan Vantage Hybrid Electrostatic speakers use my VTL tube 140s down to their lower limit of about 40Hz. At around 70 Hz my solid-state powered subwoofers take over down to below 30 Hz. The best of both worlds. |
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#30
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:02:14 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): [quoted text deleted -- deb] Did you read my article at http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm ? No power amp with an output transformer can possibly have the low frequency power bandwidth that direct-coupled solid state amps do. And that is a deal killer, how? I too am an electronic engineer. I realize that tubes CAN be inferior to solid-state for bass. I also know that I prefer the musicality of good tube midrange and high-frequencies to that of transistors. But I have solved the problem quite adequately in my own system. My Martin-Logan Vantage Hybrid Electrostatic speakers use my VTL tube 140s down to their lower limit of about 40Hz. At around 70 Hz my solid-state powered subwoofers take over down to below 30 Hz. The best of both worlds. Similar to my setup, but mine is all solid-state. I fail to see how a _properly designed_ solid state amp can be less "musical" than a tube amp, especially given the fact that the distortion from the speakers is often orders of magnitude greater than that of any decent amp, tube or solid-state. |
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:56:26 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:02:14 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): [quoted text deleted -- deb] Did you read my article at http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm ? No power amp with an output transformer can possibly have the low frequency power bandwidth that direct-coupled solid state amps do. And that is a deal killer, how? I too am an electronic engineer. I realize that tubes CAN be inferior to solid-state for bass. I also know that I prefer the musicality of good tube midrange and high-frequencies to that of transistors. But I have solved the problem quite adequately in my own system. My Martin-Logan Vantage Hybrid Electrostatic speakers use my VTL tube 140s down to their lower limit of about 40Hz. At around 70 Hz my solid-state powered subwoofers take over down to below 30 Hz. The best of both worlds. Similar to my setup, but mine is all solid-state. I fail to see how a _properly designed_ solid state amp can be less "musical" than a tube amp, especially given the fact that the distortion from the speakers is often orders of magnitude greater than that of any decent amp, tube or solid-state. The amount of distortion (as long as it's below about 1%) in power amplifiers doesn't seem to be as important as the KIND of distortion. This is far less important than it used to be. But generally speaking, transistor distortion is odd-order and not consonant with music, while tube distortion tends to be mostly even-order which is consonant with music. The ear can tolerate a lot of even-order distortion before noticing it, but can instantly hear even small amounts of odd-order distortion. Of course modern tube and transistor amps produce so little of either that you likely can't hear it anyway. |
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#32
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
The amount of distortion (as long as it's below about 1%) in power amplifiers doesn't seem to be as important as the KIND of distortion. This is only true if the distortion is high enough to be audible. IOW, it doesn't matter how relatively high the 100th harmonic is, if all harmonics including it are so low that they are never heard/ This is far less important than it used to be. But generally speaking, transistor distortion is odd-order and not consonant with music, That is false. Most good power amps are push-pull and have well-balanced gain in both directions. That means that whether tube or SS, it is difficult or impossible to generate much even-order distortion, and if they have any audible distortion at all, it will be odd order. while tube distortion tends to be mostly even-order which is consonant with music. Actually, tubes are nonlinear with a transfer function that is well-approximated by exponentials, which do not reduce to simple power series. The ear can tolerate a lot of even-order distortion before noticing it, but can instantly hear even small amounts of odd-order distortion. This is unfortunately false. The ear *is* more sensitive to high order distortion when simple sounds are reproduced. This is because high order distortion is less likely to be masked by the natural harmonic structure of music, which tends to favor lower orders. The ear instantly picks up both even and odd order distortion, absent masking. Musical instruments are generally rich producers of both even and odd distortion, depending on the instrument. For example a flute produces considerable odd order distortion which is why flutes tend to sound hollow. Music made by flutes or flute-like instruments (other woodwinds, synths) will do a good job of masking odd order distortion. Of course modern tube and transistor amps produce so little of either that you likely can't hear it anyway. Well the good ones. We do have a few pathological tube and transistor amplifiers that seem to be designed to generate nonlinear and linear distortion. One modern example of a class of modern audiophile power amps that are designed this way are called "SETs". Note that in the natural evolution of power amplifiers, SETs were relegated to cheap and outdated products by the mid-1930s. |
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#33
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Sonnova wrote:
snip The amount of distortion (as long as it's below about 1%) in power amplifiers doesn't seem to be as important as the KIND of distortion. This is far less important than it used to be. But generally speaking, transistor distortion is odd-order and not consonant with music, while tube distortion tends to be mostly even-order which is consonant with music. The ear can tolerate a lot of even-order distortion before noticing it, but can instantly hear even small amounts of odd-order distortion. Of course modern tube and transistor amps produce so little of either that you likely can't hear it anyway. That last bit is the key, IMHO. The focus needs to shift to speakers. |
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#34
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:56:26 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:02:14 -0700, H Davis wrote (in article ): [quoted text deleted -- deb] Did you read my article at http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm ? No power amp with an output transformer can possibly have the low frequency power bandwidth that direct-coupled solid state amps do. And that is a deal killer, how? I too am an electronic engineer. I realize that tubes CAN be inferior to solid-state for bass. I also know that I prefer the musicality of good tube midrange and high-frequencies to that of transistors. But I have solved the problem quite adequately in my own system. My Martin-Logan Vantage Hybrid Electrostatic speakers use my VTL tube 140s down to their lower limit of about 40Hz. At around 70 Hz my solid-state powered subwoofers take over down to below 30 Hz. The best of both worlds. Similar to my setup, but mine is all solid-state. I fail to see how a _properly designed_ solid state amp can be less "musical" than a tube amp, especially given the fact that the distortion from the speakers is often orders of magnitude greater than that of any decent amp, tube or solid-state. The amount of distortion (as long as it's below about 1%) in power amplifiers doesn't seem to be as important as the KIND of distortion. This is far less important than it used to be. But generally speaking, transistor distortion is odd-order and not consonant with music, while tube distortion tends to be mostly even-order which is consonant with music. The ear can tolerate a lot of even-order distortion before noticing it, but can instantly hear even small amounts of odd-order distortion. Of course modern tube and transistor amps produce so little of either that you likely can't hear it anyway. Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. This is generally due to such nonlinearities as crossover distortion in the output stage. In properly designed solid-state amps however, unless driven to clipping this distortion is negligible. Speakers are the source of most objectionable distortion, especially even-order and of the lower frequencies. Many audiophiles have never heard truly distortion-free reproduction of low bass, but once they do, their standards of what constitutes high fidelity increase. |
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#35
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"H Davis" wrote in message
Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. That's an assertion with very little evidence to support it. This is generally due to such nonlinearities as crossover distortion in the output stage. Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it occurs it is not vanishlingly small. Speakers are the source of most objectionable distortion, especially even-order and of the lower frequencies. Many audiophiles have never heard truly distortion-free reproduction of low bass, but once they do, their standards of what constitutes high fidelity increase. Agreed. |
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#36
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
While browsing rec.audio.high-end I came across this interesting post by Arny Krueger )
(Possibly *snipped* for brevity): "Sonnova" wrote in message Well the good ones. We do have a few pathological tube and transistor amplifiers that seem to be designed to generate nonlinear and linear distortion. One modern example of a class of modern audiophile power amps that are designed this way are called "SETs". Note that in the natural evolution of power amplifiers, SETs were relegated to cheap and outdated products by the mid-1930s. Some people like to cook their food in wood burning stoves. Other people drive bikes to work? simpler technology? outdated? Maybe. But there could be a quality of experience with older technology that you can't duplicate with more modern stuff. So there.  *R* *H* -- The 19th-century clown Joseph Grimaldi, when old and incurably depressed, visited a doctor. The physician advised him to cheer himself up by seeing the great comedian Grimaldi. Whereupon his patient told him: Doctor, I am Grimaldi. |
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#37
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
... Rockinghorse Winner wrote: While browsing rec.audio.high-end I came across this interesting post by Arny Krueger ) (Possibly *snipped* for brevity): "Sonnova" wrote in message Well the good ones. We do have a few pathological tube and transistor amplifiers that seem to be designed to generate nonlinear and linear distortion. One modern example of a class of modern audiophile power amps that are designed this way are called "SETs". Note that in the natural evolution of power amplifiers, SETs were relegated to cheap and outdated products by the mid-1930s. Some people like to cook their food in wood burning stoves. Other people drive bikes to work? simpler technology? outdated? Maybe. But there could be a quality of experience with older technology that you can't duplicate with more modern stuff. So there. snip What would your "quality of experience" be if you had paid thousands for that outboard DAC on the premise that "it was so transparent and revealing" that it could "clearly reveal the difference in sound between cables" only to discover that, in fact, it suffered from grossly incompetent mixed signal design and circuit board layout and that, in fact, it was a jitter cesspool? First of all, Dick, I would judge it by how it sounded in my system as configured....and if I read about which "magic cables" worked well with it, I likely would have bought one of them as well. If not, I would have experimented myself to find what worked well. If I was extremely happy with it, that would be that. I might hesitate to buy from that manufacturer again if I now knew (and subsequently determined with my own ears) that I could have obtained equally satisfactory sound from much cheaper gear. But that would be on a subsequent purchase. I might also tell my friends of my findings. But it wouldn't stop me from enjoying my purchase. |
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#38
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
In article ,
Dick Pierce wrote: George Tice's clock ... ... badly designed CD players ... What would your "quality of experience" be if you had paid thousands for that outboard DAC on the premise that "it was so transparent and revealing" that it could "clearly reveal the difference in sound between cables" only to discover that, in fact, it suffered from grossly incompetent mixed signal design and circuit board layout and that, in fact, it was a jitter cesspool? Another contribution to the decline of the High End might be the endless discussion of twenty-year-old controversies. Stephen |
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#39
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... "H Davis" wrote in message Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. That's an assertion with very little evidence to support it. I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical discussions of this and have observed it for myself. Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to wanting to turn the music off. This is generally due to such nonlinearities as crossover distortion in the output stage. Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it occurs it is not vanishlingly small. Small amounts can be due to an incorrectly set output stage bias trimmer, or even be inherent in the design. It need not be obviously visible on an oscilloscope to be objectionable in long-term listening. Speakers are the source of most objectionable distortion, especially even-order and of the lower frequencies. Many audiophiles have never heard truly distortion-free reproduction of low bass, but once they do, their standards of what constitutes high fidelity increase. Agreed. |
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#40
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Rockinghorse Winner" wrote in
message While browsing rec.audio.high-end I came across this interesting post by Arny Krueger ) (Possibly *snipped* for brevity): "Sonnova" wrote in message Well the good ones. We do have a few pathological tube and transistor amplifiers that seem to be designed to generate nonlinear and linear distortion. One modern example of a class of modern audiophile power amps that are designed this way are called "SETs". Note that in the natural evolution of power amplifiers, SETs were relegated to cheap and outdated products by the mid-1930s. Some people like to cook their food in wood burning stoves. As do I. But I know that one chooses the right tool for the job. If you like glowing bottles and unpredictable sound at a ludicrous price - buy a SET. If you want to listen to music and have the best chance of it sounding as good as possible, avoid the SET. Other people drive bikes to work? I do ride a bike to work, but I don't claim that my bike is faster or rides better than my Milan. When it rains or snows, I don't take the bike and claim that it is more comfortable than the car. simpler technology? outdated? Maybe. No doubt. That there would be any question shows a rather profound need for historical and technical education. But there could be a quality of experience with older technology that you can't duplicate with more modern stuff. So there. Hey, wood fires can be a lot of fun. And if you are out in the woods and run out of Isobutene... ;-) |
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