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#1
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Digital Optical Input add on
Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins to lose its value. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins to lose its value. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT? Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one I would trust. "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins to lose its value. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ... Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT? Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one I would trust. "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins to lose its value. The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main system. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ... Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT? I suspect that he's trying to exploit the defective-as-designed Wadia CD player's DACs as separate devices. Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one I would trust. It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Richard Crowley" wrote in message "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ... Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT? I suspect that he's trying to exploit the defective-as-designed Wadia CD player's DACs as separate devices. Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one I would trust. It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor. why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20 portables at Target. Why is that a feature? //Walt |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Walt" wrote in message ... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20 portables at Target. Why is that a feature? //Walt How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it up; I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance). Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and also run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction site but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for the right component to complete this system. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Richard Crowley" wrote in message "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ... Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination, that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind. Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT? I suspect that he's trying to exploit the defective-as-designed Wadia CD player's DACs as separate devices. Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one I would trust. It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor. why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? Their strange ideas about what constitutes a proper reconstruction filter. I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. Don't be deceived by the snake-oil claims that Wadia makes about the purported unique goodness of their digtial volume control. Digital volume controls aren't rocket science, and neither is running a CD player into a power amp without a full-house preamp. For the latter, please consider the "passive preamp", "passive controller" or stand alone volume control. Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp: http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022 http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm others: http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp: http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022 http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm others: http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm added: http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Arny Krueger" wrote in message news Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp: http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022 http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm others: http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm added: http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device with balanced in and outputs if i have an amp with only balanced inputs and find a CD player that utilizes balanced outputs so the whole system can use the same kind of in/outs? If the benefit is either imaginary or inconsequential that's another thing then. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main system. Well, assuming I have parsed your rather bizarre grammar to mean: "I want to play connect other digital sources, such as a DVD player, directly to my power amp, by using the internal electronics of the CD player to convert the digital data stream to analog," you're asking for something that's nigh on impossible without a very substantial amount of re-engineering. You can look at the basic operation of the CD player as having two parts: 1) the mechanical player mechanism, including the read and decode electronics and 2) the digitial-to-analg converter (DAC). In an integrated player like the Wadia (if they did it right), the master of the whole process is the DAC. It rquires samples to show up at specific intervals, and it ensures that this happens by controlling the rate at whoh the player mechanism reads data off the CD. There is, in short, a very tight intergratiuon between the operation of these two major functions, with the DAC being the master. What YOU want to do is something entirely different. When you talk about an external source, like a DVD player, there is no way any external DAC can control the rate the data is read from the source, so it must use different methods to keep in sample synchronization with what is, in essence, an asynchronous data stream. In other words, unlike the Wadia, where the DAC is the master and the transport is the slave, you want the transport to be the master and the DAC to be the slave/. The internal DAC of the Wadia or any other CD player doesn't work that way, and can't be made to work that way. Now, there ARE external DACs that do precisely what you want, and can even handle multiple sources including the digital output of the Wadia, so that you can defer the D/A conversion until just before the input to the power amp, if that's your desire. If that's NOT your desire, you're going to have to state it more clearly than you have thus far. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. Yup, so a preamp would seem to completely solve your dilemma, no? I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance). Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation is broken. The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called "oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging reconstruction filter can be implemented |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
wrote in message oups.com... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main system. Well, assuming I have parsed your rather bizarre grammar to mean: "I want to play connect other digital sources, such as a DVD player, directly to my power amp, by using the internal electronics of the CD player to convert the digital data stream to analog," you're asking for something that's nigh on impossible without a very substantial amount of re-engineering. You can look at the basic operation of the CD player as having two parts: 1) the mechanical player mechanism, including the read and decode electronics and 2) the digitial-to-analg converter (DAC). In an integrated player like the Wadia (if they did it right), the master of the whole process is the DAC. It rquires samples to show up at specific intervals, and it ensures that this happens by controlling the rate at whoh the player mechanism reads data off the CD. There is, in short, a very tight intergratiuon between the operation of these two major functions, with the DAC being the master. What YOU want to do is something entirely different. When you talk about an external source, like a DVD player, there is no way any external DAC can control the rate the data is read from the source, so it must use different methods to keep in sample synchronization with what is, in essence, an asynchronous data stream. In other words, unlike the Wadia, where the DAC is the master and the transport is the slave, you want the transport to be the master and the DAC to be the slave/. The internal DAC of the Wadia or any other CD player doesn't work that way, and can't be made to work that way. Now, there ARE external DACs that do precisely what you want, and can even handle multiple sources including the digital output of the Wadia, so that you can defer the D/A conversion until just before the input to the power amp, if that's your desire. If that's NOT your desire, you're going to have to state it more clearly than you have thus far. The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital INPUTS. These are availale to input a digital souce like a DVD player.Weather the unit is then acting as the DAC for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings i think the latter is the case.Since the DVD playing would be being decoded by the DAC in the DVD player correct? This Wadia player has optional digital inputs for some reason. If i understand its capabilities as i have stated, it would, once the inputs are installed act as a preamp essentially simply taking the audio output from a DVD and passing it to the amp, i already said that didn't i?Then i can listen to CDs and have the audio from DVDs run thru the Amp and main speakers without having to buy a seperate preamp. There are several other CD players which will accomplish this; Cary, Mark Levinson, Krell and Wadia seem to be the once posessing the features i desire so far this Wadia had the best price but its OPTIONAL Digital Input features were not installed so i wondered how that night ultimately increase the total cost. Then perhaps i'd look for a unit i didn't need to service before using. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
wrote in message oups.com... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. Yup, so a preamp would seem to completely solve your dilemma, no? I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance). Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation is broken. The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called "oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging reconstruction filter can be implemented Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Arny Krueger" wrote in message news Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp: http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022 http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm others: http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm added: http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device with balanced in and outputs if i have an amp with only balanced inputs and find a CD player that utilizes balanced outputs You can find such things in the world of professional audio. http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CD01UPro/ so the whole system can use the same kind of in/outs? http://www.8thstreet.com/Product.asp..._A ccessories http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CControl/ http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/BigKnob/ http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CentralStat/ http://www.macmidimusic.com/prod.itml/icOid/10381 etc. Big list at: http://www.swee****er.com/store/category/c417/ http://www.atlasproaudio.com/cranesong.html If the benefit is either imaginary or inconsequential that's another thing then. Whether balanced I/o has an audible benefit depends on how badly an unbalanced implementation works in the same context. Many times, unbalanced suffices. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
wrote in message oups.com... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main system. The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital INPUTS. These are availale to input a digital souce like a DVD player.Weather the unit is then acting as the DAC for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings i think the latter is the case. If the optional digital inputs are implemented, then changing them from coax to optical is pretty simple. If they aren't implemented, then the details of the implementation are only knowable if one has detailed knowlege of the internals of the device. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth, is unknown. Whether they are making a false claim is more readily knowable. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the bandwidth that a digital signal ties up with upsampling, but you can't increase the amount of information that it contains. Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper listening tests. Therefore they are at best speaking from ignorance. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message wrote in message oups.com... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main system. The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital INPUTS. These are availale to input a digital souce like a DVD player.Weather the unit is then acting as the DAC for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings i think the latter is the case. If the optional digital inputs are implemented, then changing them from coax to optical is pretty simple. If they aren't implemented, then the details of the implementation are only knowable if one has detailed knowlege of the internals of the device. Thanks that's what i thought. I am of a mind they are probably implemeted but am waiting for a reply from the Company. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. Lying? No. At least not in most cases; they genuinely believe that they can hear the difference. But when faced with the task of detecting the diference just by listening they can't. I invite you to draw your own conclusions from here. //Walt |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth, is unknown. Whether they are making a false claim is more readily knowable. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the bandwidth that a digital signal ties up with upsampling, but you can't increase the amount of information that it contains. Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper listening tests. Therefore they are at best speaking from ignorance. its funny that as ignorant as i am the thought that you can't get two yolks out of one egg(double yolked eggs notwithstanding) seemed rediculously obvious but i was momentarily wowed by this magic upsampling biz i was imagining all my old Cds would sound like DVD A or whatever on this machine. |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: wrote in message Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation is broken. The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called "oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging reconstruction filter can be implemented Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. I am sure that many of these reveiwers believe what they are saying or being told, thus I would be hesitant to say that they are most defintiely "flat out lying." A large number of these reviewers lack the technical background to understand the principles involved, and thus often do little but parrot what they read or are told. As a result, there is an enormous amount of myth, technobabble and such in the high-end press. Just because, however, they sincerely believe some- thing doesn't make it so. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? I'm am saying, in this particular case, that the statement is sufficiently content-free that it has no meaning that can be interpreted as either right or wrong. What do they mean "exceeds capability of HDCD?" Upsampling is claimed by some to "smooth" the waveform by providing more samples in between the samples. Unfortunately, the claim, in and of itself, is technically bogus: Any properly implemented D/A converter does not put out waveforms that require any smoothing. The "lack of smoothness" is due to something called "images." These are out-of-band replicas of the original base-band spectrum and are eliminated through the proper implementation of something that is called the "anti-imaging" or "reconstruction" filter on the DAC. If the filter eliminates out-of-band images, the waveform is as smooth as it will can ever be, and no amount of upsampling can improve it, at all. Now, to IMPLEMENT these anti-imaging/reconstruction filters, the technique universally adopted over at least the last decade and more is to use what are called oversampling filters. The reason for this is somewhat technical, but helps to illustrate the lack of technical foundation for "upsampling" claims. An "image," in the sampled-audio context, is essentially a "reflection" of the original base-band spectrum (0-22 kHz in the case of CD audio) at multiple points oiutside of the baseband. For example, the original baseband spectrum from 0-22.05 kHz is found reveresed from 22.05 to 44.1 kHz, from 44.1 kHz to 66.15 kHz, reversed again from 66.16 kHz to 88.2 kHz and so on. In fact, it is perfectly valid to state that a sampled stream contains the original signal and ALL images out to infinite frequency. It is, in fact, all those images that give rise to the (theoretical) appearance of a digital-toanalog convertered waveform having "steps". The finite change in amplitude in an infnitesmally short time significies an infinite spectrum. We don't want that, and that's why we have anti-imaging/reconstruction filters. The basic requirements of such a filter are simple to state and can be tough to implement: The filter must pass the base-band portion of the spectrum unchanged, but must also eliminated everytuing else completely. One way, a very effective way of handling this is to implement the filter using ioversampling: the original 44.1 kHz stream is oversampled at, say, 64 times the original sample rate, simply by 63 0 samples between each valid sample. What this does is no instead of the images occuring every 22.05 kHz, the occur every 22.05kHz*64 or 1.411 MEGAHz. The filter is constructed do do the vast majority of the 22.05 kHz filtering through the use of complex digital filter algorithms, and what's left over is to get rid of that first image at 705 kHz and above. That's a LOT easier to do in analog: it's a VERY simple filter. And because the filter is implemented, still, at 22.05 kHz, the waveform coming out is nice and smooth, with no steps, just as ANY waveform whose bandwidth is limited to 22.05 kHz will be. There's NO magic, and the claim that "upsampling" does it better, taken by itself, is technically bogus, the sincerity of the claimant notwithstanding. The point being is that EVERY CD player you find, and everyone you COULD find for well over the last 10 years, from the most expensive to the very cheapest, ALL utilize oversampling. The Wadia does it its way, and there are reasonable technical reasons why the way it does it is less than optimum. |
#23
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Arny Krueger" wrote in message news Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp: http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022 http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm others: http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm added: http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device with balanced in and outputs if i have an amp with only balanced inputs and find a CD player that utilizes balanced outputs You can find such things in the world of professional audio. http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CD01UPro/ so the whole system can use the same kind of in/outs? http://www.8thstreet.com/Product.asp...Recording_A c cessories http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CControl/ http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/BigKnob/ http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CentralStat/ http://www.macmidimusic.com/prod.itml/icOid/10381 etc. Big list at: http://www.swee****er.com/store/category/c417/ http://www.atlasproaudio.com/cranesong.html If the benefit is either imaginary or inconsequential that's another thing then. Whether balanced I/o has an audible benefit depends on how badly an unbalanced implementation works in the same context. Many times, unbalanced suffices. With say the SM Audio M-Patch passive volume control i could keep using my DVD player to play CDs . $99.00 and at least i can finally hear the amp\speakers... that's an idea. If only i had a way of finding out the method this panasonic RS-32 DVD player's DAC handles the job compared to one of these high priced gizmos so i could know if i'm missing out on a high degree of the total signal from my CDs... could it get alot better with a more"sophiticated" DAC. I guess i'll have to hear Robert Fripp's screaching electric guitar thru the 200 watt amp as compared to the 70 watt Yamaha receiver to see if that little crunchiness is gone to detrmine if it was caused by the jitter in the DVD player or the power limitations of the receiver. I'll be back, thanks. |
#24
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins to lose its value. Well just heard from Wadia. They want $595.00 plus two way freight to install the digital input . I suppose that would be all available connection types.I can't imagine Vince at Audioproz charging THAT much.. |
#25
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced the sound features of Cds. Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth, is unknown. Whether they are making a false claim is more readily knowable. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the bandwidth that a digital signal ties up with upsampling, but you can't increase the amount of information that it contains. Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper listening tests. Therefore they are at best speaking from ignorance. its funny that as ignorant as i am the thought that you can't get two yolks out of one egg(double yolked eggs notwithstanding) seemed rediculously obvious Hold that thought! ;-) but i was momentarily wowed by this magic upsampling biz i was imagining all my old Cds would sound like DVD A or whatever on this machine. The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears. |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
With say the SM Audio M-Patch passive volume control i could keep using my DVD player to play CDs . $99.00 and at least i can finally hear the amp\speakers... that's an idea. Given some of the alternatives, its like a throw-away idea. If it works you are golden, and if it does not work, what the hey? ;-) If only i had a way of finding out the method this panasonic RS-32 DVD player's I can't find anything on the web about that model. DAC handles the job compared to one of these high priced gizmos so i could know if i'm missing out on a high degree of the total signal from my CDs... could it get alot better with a more"sophiticated" DAC. Probably not. I guess i'll have to hear Robert Fripp's screaching electric guitar thru the 200 watt amp as compared to the 70 watt Yamaha receiver to see if that little crunchiness is gone to detrmine if it was caused by the jitter in the DVD player or the power limitations of the receiver. It just might be that way in the recording. Or the problem might be elsewhere than just the receiver. |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
I apologize to the group for top-posting but what I have to say does not
relate to any particular text by Harry. Harry, at the risk of offending you I will note that you seem to have a fundamantal gap in your understanding of how a digital source functions. Do some reading, there is a virtually unlimited amount on the internet, and come back with some questions that make sense. The fine folks in this forum are more than willing to help, but cannot do so if you do not understand what you are asking. For example "volume control" on a digital source. A digital bitstream has no concept of "volume". It's 1's and 0's which comprise an encoded version of analog sound. the DAC contains an OP-AMP which amplifies the converted analog signal to provide you with LINE-LEVEL OUTPUTS. Amplifiers have volume controls, NOT digital sources such as a dvd or cd player. On some higher-end models there MAY be an adjustment so that you can match your line output level to your other source components... so that you may switch from tuner to cd to dvd and they'd all be at roughly the same volume level. Portable units contain an amplifier in the same case as the cd transport and dac, hence the volume control and separate headphone jack (as opposed to line out jack). I wish you the best of luck but, having read through this thread, am doubtful you will find satisfaction. If you have a digital source which requires conversion to analog (i.e. lacks an internal DAC which would be EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) buy an external DAC. If your Wadia unit has digitial coax inputs, buy an optical to coax converter, it's way cheaper than a DAC. Most external DACs were developed for and are marketed to audiophile-types who want to improve upon the performance of the DAC in their particular source. They are not cheap. Dave "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... "Walt" wrote in message ... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20 portables at Target. Why is that a feature? //Walt How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it up; I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance). Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and also run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction site but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for the right component to complete this system. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
I guess its safe to say you failed to see the honour i do your forum by
coming here first to learn what you would have me scouring the net to read.As for your statement;" Amplifiers have volume controls", some may, mine doesn't . In the absense of a preamp yet owning a DVD/ CD player and with an incomplete understading of the ability of its DAC, i have been looking at CD players with the beliefe a more sophisticated DAC may afford me a more satisfying listening experience should there actually be any audible difference in the final listening.In that search i've found CD players which are constructed to allow i guess gain control of the DAC signal, feel free to trounce me if i misstate it but whatever , my goal is to listen to Cds with the highest or fullest replay possible for under say $3,000.00. Arny seems to have made a prudent suggestion in the passive preamps, they're economical and while i go study that information you mention i can have my neat VK-200 seranading me as i learn. "Dave" wrote in message news:hfIKf.12158$jh5.8358@edtnps84... I apologize to the group for top-posting but what I have to say does not relate to any particular text by Harry. Harry, at the risk of offending you I will note that you seem to have a fundamantal gap in your understanding of how a digital source functions. Do some reading, there is a virtually unlimited amount on the internet, and come back with some questions that make sense. The fine folks in this forum are more than willing to help, but cannot do so if you do not understand what you are asking. For example "volume control" on a digital source. A digital bitstream has no concept of "volume". It's 1's and 0's which comprise an encoded version of analog sound. the DAC contains an OP-AMP which amplifies the converted analog signal to provide you with LINE-LEVEL OUTPUTS. Amplifiers have volume controls, NOT digital sources such as a dvd or cd player. On some higher-end models there MAY be an adjustment so that you can match your line output level to your other source components... so that you may switch from tuner to cd to dvd and they'd all be at roughly the same volume level. Portable units contain an amplifier in the same case as the cd transport and dac, hence the volume control and separate headphone jack (as opposed to line out jack). I wish you the best of luck but, having read through this thread, am doubtful you will find satisfaction. If you have a digital source which requires conversion to analog (i.e. lacks an internal DAC which would be EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) buy an external DAC. If your Wadia unit has digitial coax inputs, buy an optical to coax converter, it's way cheaper than a DAC. Most external DACs were developed for and are marketed to audiophile-types who want to improve upon the performance of the DAC in their particular source. They are not cheap. Dave "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message ... "Walt" wrote in message ... Massive Head Wound Harry wrote: why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run it straight into the amp make it seem right for me. You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20 portables at Target. Why is that a feature? //Walt How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it up; I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance). Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and also run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction site but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for the right component to complete this system. |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
François Yves Le Gal wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears. As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being but isn't a transparent format. You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency on most program sources. Say 18/64. Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction, fewer bits not more. //Walt |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears. As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being but isn't a transparent format. Where? You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency on most program sources. Say 18/64. Nope. |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Walt" wrote in message
news François Yves Le Gal wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears. As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being but isn't a transparent format. You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency on most program sources. Say 18/64. Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction, fewer bits not more. It is pretty well known that linear PCM with flat quantization error represents a poor use of available bits. Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very good measure of sonic transparency is possible that way if you are willing to use enough bits. |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message On 21 Feb 2006 08:37:52 -0800, wrote: The point being is that EVERY CD player you find, and everyone you COULD find for well over the last 10 years, from the most expensive to the very cheapest, ALL utilize oversampling. Ahem, a number of so-called "audiophile" CD players and DAC's eschew any form of oversampling. Vide for instance http://www.audionote.co.uk/dacs/dac_intro.html The AudioNote is such a odd example that its almost a red herring. OK, someone went out of their way to get stupid. Doesn't make it an industry trend. |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Dave" wrote in message
news:hfIKf.12158$jh5.8358@edtnps84 For example "volume control" on a digital source. A digital bitstream has no concept of "volume". It's 1's and 0's which comprise an encoded version of analog sound. This is absolute nonesense. A digital data stream has a very strong inherent concept of volume, and as Franciois points out it is reasonably simple to change its volume. |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Walt" wrote François Yves Le Gal wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears. As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being but isn't a transparent format. You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency on most program sources. Say 18/64. Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction, fewer bits not more. It is pretty well known that linear PCM with flat quantization error represents a poor use of available bits. Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very good measure of sonic transparency is possible that way if you are willing to use enough bits. But is anybody using enough bits? The codecs seem mostly to be used for bit rate reduction. //Walt |
#35
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"François Yves Le Gal" wrote ...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote: You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? Most of it is, yes. Monsieur Le Gal could also have directed you to one of the newsgroups set up to discuss mumbo-jumbo. news:rec.audio.opinion springs to mind. :-) |
#36
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "François Yves Le Gal" wrote ... "Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote: You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo? Most of it is, yes. Monsieur Le Gal could also have directed you to one of the newsgroups set up to discuss mumbo-jumbo. news:rec.audio.opinion springs to mind. :-) I've been there,they were hopeless..... |
#37
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Walt" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very good measure of sonic transparency is possible that way if you are willing to use enough bits. But is anybody using enough bits? Yes. The codecs seem mostly to be used for bit rate reduction. Right, but quite a bit of reduction can be sonically innocious. |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:55:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: OK, someone went out of their way to get stupid. Doesn't make it an industry trend. It's an audiophile trend, with some people paying very steep premiums for basic DAC's such as the Philips TDA 1541 "triple crown" of early '80's vintage. http://www.google.com/search?q=non+oversampling+DAC OK. I guess I should never ask "What will these bozos think of next?" |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
Arny Krueger wrote: It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor. ????? WHat are you talking about Arny ????? There is a big difference between the recovery of the signal, and the end product demodulation in the D/A convertor. There is no motor FEEDBACK after the D/A. Before is a different story in the digital data stream recovery circuits. If the op had any technical chops, he could take the cover off the unit and look for a circuit board with a jack missing or parts missing indicating his unit has a few parts left off rather than a complete different design than the model he thought had that feature on it. Bob ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Digital Optical Input add on
"Bob Urz" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor. ????? WHat are you talking about Arny ????? There is a big difference between the recovery of the signal, and the end product demodulation in the D/A convertor. There is no motor FEEDBACK after the D/A. Before is a different story in the digital data stream recovery circuits. An external digital input would come *before* the DAC, right? |
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