[willbill]

surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI

for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1
sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA
inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs)
sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables?

i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection
or an HDMI connection

for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either
of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD
and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables

agreed or disagreed?

bill

[Sonnova]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI

for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1
sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA
inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs)
sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables?

i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection
or an HDMI connection

for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either
of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD
and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables

agreed or disagreed?

bill

Sounds to me like what you are saying is that you like the surround-sound
decoder chip in your DVD player better than you like the one in your AVR
because that's the only difference. TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1
DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver,
where it's processed into analog, while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded
ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which have surround-sound
decoders already built-in). So the choice is yours decode the sound in the
player or decode the sound in the receiver.

Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder in your DVD player
seems to be better than the one in your receiver, doesn't necessarily mean
that the decoder that comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that
tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at home before buying)
to tell beforehand. In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is
determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system. It's the
decoder you are using. With the 6 individual RCAs you are decoding the
surround-sound in the DVD player itself, and with TOSLINK or HDMI, you are
using your AVR to do the decoding. It is possible for one decoder chip to be
better sounding than another and that's doubtless what you are experiencing.

[willbill]

Sonnova wrote:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI

for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1
sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA
inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs)
sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables?

i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection
or an HDMI connection

for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either
of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD
and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables

agreed or disagreed?

Sounds to me like what you are saying is that
you like the surround-sound decoder chip in
your DVD player better than you like the one
in your AVR because that's the only difference.

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD

my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1
DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the
Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver,
where it's processed into analog,

yes, i'm aware of that

while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded
ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which
have surround-sound decoders already built-in).
So the choice is yours decode the sound in the
player or decode the sound in the receiver.

Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder
in your DVD player seems to be better than the one in your
receiver, doesn't necessarily mean that the decoder that
comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that
tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at
home before buying) to tell beforehand.

tell me about it!

i still remember my 1st big, heavy, expensive
solid state amp, circa 1975

what a major learning experience/disappointment
that was.

but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm
thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players
(or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA
as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok?

also, don't get me wrong, the Denon AVR is rather
good and i don't plan to toss it out

In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is
determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system.

as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question,
and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement
as to what reason(s) the difference is due to

for the moment, so long as i can set up the unit remotes
to easily switch to the best sound setup, i'm a happy camper

bill

It's the
decoder you are using. With the 6 individual RCAs you are decoding the
surround-sound in the DVD player itself, and with TOSLINK or HDMI, you are
using your AVR to do the decoding. It is possible for one decoder chip to be
better sounding than another and that's doubtless what you are experiencing.

[Steven Sullivan]

willbill wrote:
Sonnova wrote:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI

for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1
sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA
inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs)
sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables?

i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection
or an HDMI connection

for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either
of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD
and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables

agreed or disagreed?

Sounds to me like what you are saying is that
you like the surround-sound decoder chip in
your DVD player better than you like the one
in your AVR because that's the only difference.

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD

my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

again, if you are applying processing to the
signal in the player for one output, and in the
AVR for another, then unless the processing is the
same, the final sound may be different.

For a fairer test, turn off all processing in
both (except perhaps for speaker levels, to match
levels) and compare the two.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[willbill]

Steven Sullivan wrote:

willbill wrote:

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD
my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

again, if you are applying processing to the
signal in the player for one output, and in the
AVR for another, then unless the processing is the
same, the final sound may be different.

processing in the player is the same
for both listening comparisons

the primary diff is the decoder used,
secondarily the audio cables used,
with a third small diff being the
subwoffer boost

bill

[Sonnova]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

Sonnova wrote:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:34:00 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

surround sound 5.1 cables: 6 RCA vs toslink vs HDMI

for DVD movies with half decent DD5.1 and/or DTS5.1
sound, anybody else notice that their AVR (that has 6 RCA
inputs for 5.1, as well as a player with 6 RCA outputs)
sounds better when used with the 6 RCA cables?

i.e. than 5.1 audio via either a toslink connection
or an HDMI connection

for the moment, i'm inclined to not buy either
of the new hi def movie players (i.e. HD-DVD
and/or Blu-Ray) unless it has 5.1 via 6 RCA cables

agreed or disagreed?

Sounds to me like what you are saying is that
you like the surround-sound decoder chip in
your DVD player better than you like the one
in your AVR because that's the only difference.

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD

my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all, they are
carrying the digital bit stream. The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a
very good reputation for sounding extremely good, so it doesn't surprise me
that you find the OPPO's decoder to be better than the Denon's.

TOSLINK and HDMI carry the un-decoded 5.1
DIGITAL bit stream from the player to the
Dolby/DTS decoder in your receiver,
where it's processed into analog,

yes, i'm aware of that

while the 6 RCAs carry the already decoded
ANALOG signal from your DVD player (many of which
have surround-sound decoders already built-in).
So the choice is yours decode the sound in the
player or decode the sound in the receiver.

Here's the rub: just because the surround-sound decoder
in your DVD player seems to be better than the one in your
receiver, doesn't necessarily mean that the decoder that
comes in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will continue that
tradition and there is no way (except by auditioning at
home before buying) to tell beforehand.

tell me about it!

i still remember my 1st big, heavy, expensive
solid state amp, circa 1975

what a major learning experience/disappointment
that was.

but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm
thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players
(or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA
as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok?

I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon
AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why
I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never
tried the 6 analog outputs from the player.

also, don't get me wrong, the Denon AVR is rather
good and i don't plan to toss it out

In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is
determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system.

as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question,
and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement
as to what reason(s) the difference is due to

Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges.
HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the
location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and
dry.

[willbill]

Sonnova wrote:

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote:

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD

my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all,
they are carrying the digital bit stream.

audio is audio

the diffs are the transport mechanism and whether
the mechanical recorded source is digital or analog;
the usual starting source (performance) is normally
analog audio

The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a
very good reputation for sounding extremely good,
so it doesn't surprise me that you find the OPPO's
decoder to be better than the Denon's.

yes, the OPPO does have a great reputation

so yes, the decoder is a very real possibility

but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm
thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players
(or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA
as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok?

I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon
AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why
I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never
tried the 6 analog outputs from the player.

the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have,
does *not* have 6 analog outputs!

correct me if i'm wrong.

you might consider doing an a/b of inputting
surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently
presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital)

odds are that you will find a noticable improvement
with the toslink optical input.

In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is
determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system.

as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question,
and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement
as to what reason(s) the difference is due to

Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges.
HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the
location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and
dry.

in my long experience, audio is *never* cut-and-dry

and i'm confident that i'm not comparing apples to oranges

bill

[Sonnova]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:48 -0800, willbill wrote
(in article ):

Sonnova wrote:

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0800, willbill wrote:

my DVD player = $230 OPPO DV-981HD

my AVR = $800 Denon AVR-2307CI

if it is due to a decoder quality difference,
i hardly expected it to favor the OPPO;
meaning that it raised a couple of other
possibilities including that the audio data
transmitted via either toslink or HDMI may
not be as "good" as that via 6 RCA

Let's try again. TOSLINK and HDMI are not carrying audio at all,
they are carrying the digital bit stream.

audio is audio

and digital is digital, but digital isn't "audio" until it is decoded, nor is
"audio" digital.

the diffs are the transport mechanism and whether
the mechanical recorded source is digital or analog;
the usual starting source (performance) is normally
analog audio

But the transport mechanism is the same for both sets of outputs.

The RCA's ARE carrying audio. The OPPO has a
very good reputation for sounding extremely good,
so it doesn't surprise me that you find the OPPO's
decoder to be better than the Denon's.

yes, the OPPO does have a great reputation

so yes, the decoder is a very real possibility

but since you bring the subject up, and since i'm
thinking about getting one of the Toshiba HD-A2 players
(or the still newer HD-A3), and assumming it has 6 RCA
as well as toslink and HDMI, does it decode/sound ok?

I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon
AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is
why
I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've
never
tried the 6 analog outputs from the player.

the Toshiba HD-A2, that you have,
does *not* have 6 analog outputs!

correct me if i'm wrong.

It might not, I've never actually looked.

you might consider doing an a/b of inputting
surround audio via coax digital (which you apparently
presently do) vs. toslink optical (also digital)

I've never heard any difference between TOSLINK digital, and Coax digital

odds are that you will find a noticable improvement
with the toslink optical input.

I doubt if there is any difference. In fact, when TOSLINK first appeared,
many audiophiles found just the opposite to be true. I.E., that TOSLINK
sounded distinctly inferior to either coax or glass-fiber, and indeed, some
tests showed that the bandwidth of many early TOSLINK setups was much
narrower than that of either coax or glass-fiber. However, that difference
has been long since addressed. The optical transducers on both ends of modern
TOSLINK connections have been significantly improved.

In other words, the type of interconnect is NOT what is
determining the quality of the surround-sound in your system.

as far as i'm concerned, it's still an open question,
and hopefully i get closer to a more informed judgement
as to what reason(s) the difference is due to

Actually, it's not an open question. You are comparing apples to oranges.
HDMI/TOSLINK is digital, and the RCAs are analog. You're just moving the
location of the digital decode for your surround sound. It's that cut-and
dry.

in my long experience, audio is *never* cut-and-dry

and i'm confident that i'm not comparing apples to oranges


Believe me. It CAN'T be anything else.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova
wrote:

I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon
AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is why
I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've never
tried the 6 analog outputs from the player.

Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of
the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output
only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs.

Kal

[Sonnova]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:12:17 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ):

On 13 Nov 2007 03:40:50 GMT, Sonnova
wrote:

I have an HD-A2. I use coaxial digital to connect to my Harman-Kardon
AVR-7000. This receiver uses Lexicon surround-sound processing - which is
why
I bit the bullet and paid close to $2000 for it and is excellent. I've
never
tried the 6 analog outputs from the player.

Unfortunately, that arrangement does not permit you to enjoy any of
the new lossless CODECs (Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD-MA) which can be output
only over HDMI (as bitstream or LPCM) or over analog outputs.

Kal

What makes you think that the AVR-7000 does not have 6 discrete audio inputs?