[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want to
spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Arny Krueger]

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" wrote in
message

I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x
what I want to spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better
than 105dB

USB and FW interfaces are zero height. I'd go there first. EMu has some
cards that would easily meet your dynamic range spec, and don't cost an arm
and a leg.

[Geoff]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want to
spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

Is this a real requirement, or a figure plucked out of the air. You room
will likely have a s/n around half that....

geoff

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 04/03/2010 21:31, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want to
spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

Is this a real requirement, or a figure plucked out of the air. You room
will likely have a s/n around half that....

geoff



A real requirement.
An 800W RMS amp we are using in our active speaker has a 105dB s/n.
We should not do worse than that because noise is already audible in a
quiet room, up close.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 04/03/2010 21:31, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want to
spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

Is this a real requirement, or a figure plucked out of the air. You room
will likely have a s/n around half that....

geoff



A real requirement.
An 800W RMS amp we are using in our active speaker has a 105dB s/n.
We should not do worse than that because noise is already audible in a
quiet room, up close.



It has a 105dB dynamic range which is the difference between its noise
level and 800W. That is not the same as its s/n ratio which depends on
the level of signal. As you say you can hear the noise in a quiet room
close up but I bet you cannot stand 800W that close. What you really
need is a different power amp with a lower output power and a
consequently lower absolute level of output noise.

Cheers

Ian

[Geoff]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 04/03/2010 21:31, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want
to spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

Is this a real requirement, or a figure plucked out of the air. You
room will likely have a s/n around half that....

geoff



A real requirement.
An 800W RMS amp we are using in our active speaker has a 105dB s/n.
We should not do worse than that because noise is already audible in a
quiet room, up close.

The noise from the speaker, or the exising soundcard ?

geoff

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 07/03/2010 20:58, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 04/03/2010 21:31, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
I'm looking for a low noise, half height soundcard.
Ideally not very expensive.
The Auzentech Forte would be perfect, but it's about 2x what I want
to spend. Main thing is low s/n ie better than 105dB

Is this a real requirement, or a figure plucked out of the air. You
room will likely have a s/n around half that....

geoff



A real requirement.
An 800W RMS amp we are using in our active speaker has a 105dB s/n.
We should not do worse than that because noise is already audible in a
quiet room, up close.

The noise from the speaker, or the exising soundcard ?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I am
using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise. Which
leaves the soundcard.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Geoff]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all the time
?

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

geoff

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all the
time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

Cheers

Ian

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

Cheers

Ian

[Mr.T]

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" wrote in message
...
I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all the
time
?


Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

So there is your problem!
Using the soundcard digital attenuator to reduce volume to an 800W power amp
is just asking for trouble.
Crank the soundcard to maximum output and turn down the power amp volume
controls if any, or use a separate input attenuator.

MrT.

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP (95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 09/03/2010 06:47, Mr.T wrote:
"Dirk Bruere at wrote in message
...
I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC. Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all the
time
?


Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

So there is your problem!
Using the soundcard digital attenuator to reduce volume to an 800W power amp
is just asking for trouble.
Crank the soundcard to maximum output and turn down the power amp volume
controls if any, or use a separate input attenuator.

And ask the customer to go round each speaker and twiddle knob?
Or build a comms network to link each speaker.
Or remove the amps from the speakers and just have them in a huge pile
with hefty power cables everywhere.
Those would seem to be the alternatives, and we have ruled them out on
commercial grounds.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound card.

Cheers

Ian

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Geoff]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB


There will be no significant difference with a sound card that does 95dB
s/n.

I mean the average CD player cannot be hooked up to these speakers without
making undue noise ?

geoff

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 01:40, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB


There will be no significant difference with a sound card that does 95dB
s/n.

I mean the average CD player cannot be hooked up to these speakers without
making undue noise ?

The source is a PC playing BluRay, as a best case.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Mr.T]

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" wrote in message
...
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

So there is your problem!
Using the soundcard digital attenuator to reduce volume to an 800W power
amp
is just asking for trouble.
Crank the soundcard to maximum output and turn down the power amp volume
controls if any, or use a separate input attenuator.

And ask the customer to go round each speaker and twiddle knob?
Or build a comms network to link each speaker.
Or remove the amps from the speakers and just have them in a huge pile
with hefty power cables everywhere.
Those would seem to be the alternatives, and we have ruled them out on
commercial grounds.

So use a proper attenuator between soundcard output and amplifier input. I
fail to see how that is any more difficult than using the soundcard digital
attenuator which WILL reduce your S/N ratio at it's output, whilst an analog
attenuator will reduce both signal and noise keeping the S/N ratio the same.

But probably the best option is to hire someone that actually knows what
they are doing to set it up for you.

MrT.

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The solution
may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4



Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Cheers

Ian

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 09:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The
solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so
the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so
you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4



Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Any suggestions as to one that will match an Auzentech card at around
the same price?

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Mr.T]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I
temid=27&limitstart=4



Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" wrote in message
...
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

So there is your problem!
Using the soundcard digital attenuator to reduce volume to an 800W
power amp
is just asking for trouble.
Crank the soundcard to maximum output and turn down the power amp
volume
controls if any, or use a separate input attenuator.

And ask the customer to go round each speaker and twiddle knob?
Or build a comms network to link each speaker.
Or remove the amps from the speakers and just have them in a huge pile
with hefty power cables everywhere.
Those would seem to be the alternatives, and we have ruled them out on
commercial grounds.

So use a proper attenuator between soundcard output and amplifier input.

It would have to attenuate between 6 and 8 channels, if I understand this
application correctly. Got an off-the-shelf part in mind?

I fail to see how that is any more difficult than using the soundcard
digital
attenuator which WILL reduce your S/N ratio at it's output, whilst an
analog
attenuator will reduce both signal and noise keeping the S/N ratio the
same.

Not necessarily.

Both the sound card and the amplifier are properly modeled as a fixed noise
source and a variable signal. Therefore, as you turn the signal down, the
SNR of both the sound card and the amplifier will get worse because there is
less signal but the same amount of noise.

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 09:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up full
all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or
attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The
solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them
with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so
the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The
threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so
you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4





Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Any suggestions as to one that will match an Auzentech card at around
the same price?



Not off hand. Google is your friend.

Cheers

ian

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I
temid=27&limitstart=4

Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.




If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Cheers

Ian

[Arny Krueger]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I
temid=27&limitstart=4

Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly achieve
it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the boat
with PCs and ICs.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC chips.
Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by definition
are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just like the ones in a
PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data sheets, if you didn't know
that converter chips have clock and logic lines running right up to them and
going inside where they are even closer to the precious analog signals.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good dynamic
range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence that Mixed-signal
design generally post dates tubes? You should at least show the art of
mixed-signal design a little respect, even if you don't want to understand
it.

Bottom line Ian, yourself no favors by ranting and raving against situations
that are known by many of us to be solved problems. OTOH, what should we
expect from someone who doesn't get "sand state"? ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I
temid=27&limitstart=4

Look like pretty much flawed tests.

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 14:08, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 09:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up
full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or
attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The
solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them
with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so
the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The
threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so
you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4






Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Any suggestions as to one that will match an Auzentech card at around
the same price?



Not off hand. Google is your friend.

Well, some "good" ones are to be had at around $600 it seems.
In which case, a dedicated PC and sound card will certainly be cheaper
and may well match it in quality.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I
temid=27&limitstart=4
Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.
You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly achieve
it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the boat
with PCs and ICs.


Really? I made my living designing microprocessor based hardware.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC chips.

The limit is, indeed that.

Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by definition
are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just like the ones in a
PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data sheets, if you didn't know
that converter chips have clock and logic lines running right up to them and
going inside where they are even closer to the precious analog signals.


You make too many assumption about my supposed lack of knowledge.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good dynamic
range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence that Mixed-signal
design generally post dates tubes? You should at least show the art of
mixed-signal design a little respect, even if you don't want to understand
it.

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer,
plugged into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by
another and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended
method of mixed signal design. That's why it is not easy to get the best
audio performance from a PC.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD
conversion in their own separate box with their own designed for audio
PSU IS a reasonable approach to mixed signal design.


Bottom line Ian, yourself no favors by ranting and raving against situations
that are known by many of us to be solved problems. OTOH, what should we
expect from someone who doesn't get "sand state"? ;-)


I neither rant nor rave; I merely point out the obvious.

Cheers

Ian

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 14:08, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 09:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a crap
DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up
full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or
attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The
solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them
with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp, and so
the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the full
800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The
threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so
you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4







Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Any suggestions as to one that will match an Auzentech card at around
the same price?



Not off hand. Google is your friend.

Well, some "good" ones are to be had at around $600 it seems.
In which case, a dedicated PC and sound card will certainly be cheaper
and may well match it in quality.



Obviously the choice is yours.

Cheers

Ian

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 21:44, Ian Bell wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I

temid=27&limitstart=4
Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.
You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the
boat with PCs and ICs.


Really? I made my living designing microprocessor based hardware.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC chips.

The limit is, indeed that.

Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by
definition are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just
like the ones in a PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data
sheets, if you didn't know that converter chips have clock and logic
lines running right up to them and going inside where they are even
closer to the precious analog signals.


You make too many assumption about my supposed lack of knowledge.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good
dynamic range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence
that Mixed-signal design generally post dates tubes? You should at
least show the art of mixed-signal design a little respect, even if
you don't want to understand it.

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer,
plugged into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by
another and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended
method of mixed signal design. That's why it is not easy to get the best
audio performance from a PC.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD
conversion in their own separate box with their own designed for audio
PSU IS a reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

True, but these days its well into the area of diminishing returns.
I've listened to various audio sources through dedicated DSP boards
costing $5000 going into speakers costing twice as much, and I can't say
that the $5000 DSP is any better than an Auzentech, unless it's in a
totally crap mobo.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 21:44, Ian Bell wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I


temid=27&limitstart=4
Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.
You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the
boat with PCs and ICs.


Really? I made my living designing microprocessor based hardware.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC
chips.

The limit is, indeed that.

Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by
definition are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just
like the ones in a PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data
sheets, if you didn't know that converter chips have clock and logic
lines running right up to them and going inside where they are even
closer to the precious analog signals.


You make too many assumption about my supposed lack of knowledge.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good
dynamic range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence
that Mixed-signal design generally post dates tubes? You should at
least show the art of mixed-signal design a little respect, even if
you don't want to understand it.

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer,
plugged into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by
another and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended
method of mixed signal design. That's why it is not easy to get the best
audio performance from a PC.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD
conversion in their own separate box with their own designed for audio
PSU IS a reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

True, but these days its well into the area of diminishing returns.
I've listened to various audio sources through dedicated DSP boards
costing $5000 going into speakers costing twice as much, and I can't say
that the $5000 DSP is any better than an Auzentech, unless it's in a
totally crap mobo.



You may well be right, but change the hard drive, or install a new
graphics card or even upgrade the software and things often change for
the worse in terms of sound quality. The only way to be certain it
remains the highest quality is to do it outside the PC.

Cheers

Ian

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 23:32, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 21:44, Ian Bell wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with
some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I


temid=27&limitstart=4
Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.
You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the
boat with PCs and ICs.


Really? I made my living designing microprocessor based hardware.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC
chips.

The limit is, indeed that.

Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by
definition are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just
like the ones in a PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data
sheets, if you didn't know that converter chips have clock and logic
lines running right up to them and going inside where they are even
closer to the precious analog signals.


You make too many assumption about my supposed lack of knowledge.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good
dynamic range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence
that Mixed-signal design generally post dates tubes? You should at
least show the art of mixed-signal design a little respect, even if
you don't want to understand it.

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer,
plugged into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by
another and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended
method of mixed signal design. That's why it is not easy to get the best
audio performance from a PC.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD
conversion in their own separate box with their own designed for audio
PSU IS a reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

True, but these days its well into the area of diminishing returns.
I've listened to various audio sources through dedicated DSP boards
costing $5000 going into speakers costing twice as much, and I can't
say that the $5000 DSP is any better than an Auzentech, unless it's in
a totally crap mobo.



You may well be right, but change the hard drive, or install a new
graphics card or even upgrade the software and things often change for
the worse in terms of sound quality. The only way to be certain it
remains the highest quality is to do it outside the PC.

Or have a dedicated PC set up and then left alone with updates etc
turned off.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

On 10/03/2010 21:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 14:08, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 09:46, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 09/03/2010 23:25, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 20:02, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 08/03/2010 08:59, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 07/03/2010 23:05, geoff wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
?

The o/p of a low noise card (Auzentech), fed through a
crap DSP
(95dB
s/n) into a 105dB amp. So most of the noise is coming from
the
DSP.

I am getting rid of the DSP by using VST functions in the PC.
Since I
am using 64 bit processing I doubt it will add any
significant
noise.
Which leaves the soundcard.

You have the amp sitting there with the volume cranked up
full all
the time
?

Embedded in the speaker.
Volume is controlled from the PC soundcard.

I think you may be inventing not-existing problems, or
attributing
another
problem to a soundcard spec that is only semi-relevant.

Or the active speaker (or old soundcard) is unduly noisy,
over-optimistically specced, or faulty (ie not 105dB).

When the amp alone is connected the noise is negligible.
The DSP does make a very significant difference.



Then it is likely you have your level matching wrong. The
solution may
be little more than a simple pad at the input to the amp.

I'm pretty sure its correct.
We have a 105dB amp being fed by 2 DSPs, each with a 95dB s/n
That alone reduces the s/n ratio overall by 12dB

My first task is to eliminate the DSP elements by replacing them
with
PCs running VST in 64 bit mode. I can't get rid of the amp,
and so
the
weakest link then becomes the soundcard driving the amp.


You are assuming you want digital full scale to produce the
full 800
watts with the listener pressing his ear to the cone. The
threshold of
pain is 140dB SPL so 105dB below that is 35dB SPL - it is
virtually
certain that the ambient noise in the room exceeds that level so
you do
not need 105 dB of dynamic range or s/n.

I do if its a demo room at a dealers.



If it is a demo room at a dealers you should NOT be using a PC sound
card.

So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with some
exceeding 120dB
http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...7&limitstart=4







Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.

Any suggestions as to one that will match an Auzentech card at around
the same price?



Not off hand. Google is your friend.

Well, some "good" ones are to be had at around $600 it seems.
In which case, a dedicated PC and sound card will certainly be cheaper
and may well match it in quality.



Obviously the choice is yours.

Well, I'll be doing the expt next week with a dedicated mobo, soundcard
and booted from flash

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

[Arny Krueger]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer, plugged
into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by another
and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended method of
mixed signal design.

Recommended by who?

Yup, you!

That's why it is not easy to get the best audio performance from a PC.

Never had it fail after testing nearly 100 audio interfaces in various
randomly-selected PCs for my www.pcavtech.com web site.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD conversion
in their own separate box with their own designed for audio PSU IS a
reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

Am I reading this in some twinkie audiophile forum?

Feels that way. Iain, you left out the *necessary* housing of the whole
enchelada in a cavity milled in a solid billet of titanium or some such.

Bottom line Ian, yourself no favors by ranting and raving against
situations that are known by many of us to be solved problems. OTOH, what
should we expect from someone who doesn't get "sand state"? ;-)

I neither rant nor rave; I merely point out the obvious.

In this case you're making it clear that you are drinking audiophile
kool-aid, Ian.

[Mr.T]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Sure, you can do it EITHER way, that's the point.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I fail to see how that is any more difficult than using the soundcard
digital
attenuator which WILL reduce your S/N ratio at it's output, whilst an
analog
attenuator will reduce both signal and noise keeping the S/N ratio the
same.

Not necessarily.

Both the sound card and the amplifier are properly modeled as a fixed
noise
source and a variable signal. Therefore, as you turn the signal down, the
SNR of both the sound card and the amplifier will get worse because there
is
less signal but the same amount of noise.


Do tell how a passive analog attenuator will reduce the signal but leave the
noise untouched?
Of course you can't *improve* on the amplifiers s/n, but a digital
attenuator does have a fixed noise floor greater than a passive analog one,
which is only governed by it's thermal noise floor.

MrT.

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 23:32, Ian Bell wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
On 10/03/2010 21:44, Ian Bell wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
So how do you suggest I get the "sound" out of a computer based AV
system? Most high end soundcards do better than 116dB s/n, with
some
exceeding 120dB

http://www.elite*******s.com/index.p...=view&id=689&I



temid=27&limitstart=4
Come out digitally and use a quality external DtoA.
You know of one that exceeds 120dB then?

MrT.

If you REALLY can achieve 120dB INSIDE a PC then you can certainly
achieve it outside.

Ian, for a guy who is so bright with tubes, you surely have missed the
boat with PCs and ICs.


Really? I made my living designing microprocessor based hardware.

The limit to dynamic range in audio interfaces is generally the IC
chips.

The limit is, indeed that.

Where the chips are sited matters, but *all* converter chips by
definition are sited intimately with logic and clock signals, just
like the ones in a PC. Maybe you need to look at some converter data
sheets, if you didn't know that converter chips have clock and logic
lines running right up to them and going inside where they are even
closer to the precious analog signals.


You make too many assumption about my supposed lack of knowledge.

The business of siting converter chips and still obtaining good
dynamic range is called "Mixed-signal design". Is it a coincidence
that Mixed-signal design generally post dates tubes? You should at
least show the art of mixed-signal design a little respect, even if
you don't want to understand it.

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer,
plugged into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by
another and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended
method of mixed signal design. That's why it is not easy to get the
best
audio performance from a PC.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD
conversion in their own separate box with their own designed for audio
PSU IS a reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

True, but these days its well into the area of diminishing returns.
I've listened to various audio sources through dedicated DSP boards
costing $5000 going into speakers costing twice as much, and I can't
say that the $5000 DSP is any better than an Auzentech, unless it's in
a totally crap mobo.



You may well be right, but change the hard drive, or install a new
graphics card or even upgrade the software and things often change for
the worse in terms of sound quality. The only way to be certain it
remains the highest quality is to do it outside the PC.

Or have a dedicated PC set up and then left alone with updates etc
turned off.



That would probably work too.

Cheers

ian

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...

The point of my remark was exactly that. The relatively uncontrolled
environment of one particular sound card made by one manufacturer, plugged
into in a PCB made by another manufacturer, encased in a box by another
and powered from a PSU by yet another, is not a recommended method of
mixed signal design.

Recommended by who?

Yup, you!

That's why it is not easy to get the best audio performance from a PC.

Never had it fail after testing nearly 100 audio interfaces in various
randomly-selected PCs for my www.pcavtech.com web site.

OTOH, siting only the essential components for the job of AtoD conversion
in their own separate box with their own designed for audio PSU IS a
reasonable approach to mixed signal design.

Am I reading this in some twinkie audiophile forum?

Feels that way. Iain, you left out the *necessary* housing of the whole
enchelada in a cavity milled in a solid billet of titanium or some such.

Bottom line Ian, yourself no favors by ranting and raving against
situations that are known by many of us to be solved problems. OTOH, what
should we expect from someone who doesn't get "sand state"? ;-)

I neither rant nor rave; I merely point out the obvious.

In this case you're making it clear that you are drinking audiophile
kool-aid, Ian.




YAWN