I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

Tim in Los Angeles wrote:
I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

wavs will take up enormous amounts of drive space. One thing you should
consider is testing yourself to see at what point data-compressed
audio becomes indistinguishable to you from the original .wavs. Rip
some test tracks at various bitrates using a good mp3 encoder (like LAME)
and compare them to the original.

You shoudl try to perform the comparison 'blinded' so that you won't
be unduly influenced by knowing which track is mprs and whihc is
wav audio.



--
-S.

On 17 Oct 2003 20:02:51 GMT, (Tim in Los Angeles)
wrote:

I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

I have a friend that is doing just this, he has over 4000 cds and has
started ripping them all to a large hard drive array/juck box setup.
He has been shopping ebay and has picked up 14 scsi cd drives for very
reasonable prices and built a couple of ripping towers. He is using a
software package that rips, catalogs and manages the data. It is using
a lossless compression setup. I believe he is using a usb a/d setup to
get the analog signals out of the very noisy environment of the cpu. I
can get some detailed information if you are interested.

David

In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote:
I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

wavs will take up enormous amounts of drive space.

wav space used is negligible compared to current disc sizes.

Uncompressed 16 bit stereo 44.1KHz audio takes up about 10.5M/minute

$200 buys you an EIDE drive that holds 250,000M.

That's 396 hours of uncompressed music.

Most cases will accomodate 4 drives, some will take 8. If 132 days of music
is insufficient, you can add more computers and play over your network which
you probably want to be doing from the start - use a diskless+fanless
computer or appliance (I have an Audiotron which has an S/PDIF digital output
and plays .wav files), and stick the noisy drives in an equipment closet.
--
a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/"Home Page/a
Life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease.

Tim in Los Angeles wrote:
I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

I used to think that there is no way compressed music can sound as good
as CD's, and was very pleasantly surprised to discover that the modern
encoders do a very good job. If you were to encode in VBR (variable bit
rate) MP3 using LAME and specify a max bit rate of 320Kbps, I think
you'll be surprised at the high quality, too. For a ripper/encoder for
MP3, I highly recommend the freeware CDEX, which does a very good job of
extracting audio from CD's.

The newly released Apple Itunes 4.1 for Windows is excellent, and I have
played with it for about 8 hours now. It is very easy to use, and does a
great job of organizing the music, whether it's MP3's, AAC's or .wav's.
It is free! At least for now. Download from Apple.

Itunes also has a built in AAC encoder, which supposedly is more
efficient than MP3. I have not done any blind comparison between AAC and
MP3 though, but the Itunes online store sells songs coded at 128 Kbps
AAC and they call it CD quality. I have encoded AA3's at 192 Kbps, and I
am very happy with the results.

Both CDEX and Itunes will let you store the .wav files, if you feel you
need the uncompressed format.

If you are looking for a MP3/AAC player, I highly recommend Apples Ipod,
although I have not listened to Creative Lab's products and they may
also be good. IPod's look very cool, and the user interface is superb.

"Tim in Los Angeles" wrote in message
...
I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

Only that in addition to doing it via computer, you might wish to explore
some of the dedicated "cd servers" that are now becoming available.
Essentially these are dedicated computers/hard drives/cd players that make
the job of recording, indexing, and playing back that much more simple. And
they are already set up for inputs and outputs from an audio system. Sorry
I don't know any specifics to give you, but most firms that do custom home
theatre installation will know of them. I also believe I saw a survey
article in one of the home theatre mags within the last few months.

I have been very surprised at the quality, depth and soundstage that can come
from a computer. I am not using anything fancy as far as computer hardware
goes, just load a CD and connect the audio outs to a pair of Paradigm Active 40
speakers. I certainly can hear the difference between the CD and any MP3 I
have been able to try, even encoded at 320 but AIFF files sounds just like the
CD.

Jon
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

David Power wrote in message ...
On 17 Oct 2003 20:02:51 GMT, (Tim in Los Angeles)
wrote:

I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

I have a friend that is doing just this, he has over 4000 cds and has
started ripping them all to a large hard drive array/juck box setup.
He has been shopping ebay and has picked up 14 scsi cd drives for very
reasonable prices and built a couple of ripping towers. He is using a
software package that rips, catalogs and manages the data. It is using
a lossless compression setup. I believe he is using a usb a/d setup to
get the analog signals out of the very noisy environment of the cpu. I
can get some detailed information if you are interested.

David

David,

I would be very interested in the name of the software your friend is
using.

Regarding the a/d, the Card Deluxe has received terrific reviews and
it is an internal card. However, the d/a is the critical element in
the sound of my system to be. Please ask your friend for the name of
the usb a/d and for his thinking in buying it.

Tim in LA

Tim:

As Chung, I also agree the new Itunes (for mac or windows) is a very
good option for your computer. It will allow to manage a very large
amount of music in your computer without problems, even if placed in
more than one hard drive. Even better, will allow you to store files
in uncompressed formats (AIFF or WAV) which have 100% CD quality.
This will of course use a lot of space in your hard drives, but the
application should not slow down because of it.
I find the way the music is organized very intuitive, and the smart
playlists option will let you create playlists based on multiple
settings ( for example, rock songs less than 5 minutes long, from 1996
with more than 4 stars in my rating and that are less often played.
excellent for parties or when you want the computer to choose it for
you w/o being completely random.

I reccomend you read the excellent article by West Phillips on the
October, 2003 Stereophile Magazine about the iPod and the quality of
the compressed and uncompressed formats you are able to lisen to from
it (yes, you can play uncompressed music on the ipod, 100% CD quality,
storage capacity of about 80 CD's uncompressed). You will be surprised
that he speaks favorably of the compressed AAC at 320 Kbps coming out
of this little thing (althoug still prefers the uncompressed one).

with an Ipod, you may even choose to place your computer elsewhere and
only attach the iPod to your stereo. Use the available IR remote
control (NaviPod) and manage your music from your couch!.

good luck with your search for better sound!

On 17 Oct 2003 20:02:51 GMT, (Tim in Los Angeles)
wrote:

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

Lossless compression is identical in quality to wav or aiff at about
40% space savings. Flac, Monkey's Audio, Wavepack, and Optimfrog are
several of the ones that come to mind immediately.

For computer setups, there are some other things you should pay
attention to besides the soundcard and the computer noise: for
example, in a Microsoft Windows-based system, you want to make sure
your sound card does not share an IRQ, otherwise you may hear
intermittent glitching. You may have to install your operating system
in a non-default way ("standard PC mode").

PCAudiolabs.com explains this and other tips at:

http://pcaudiolabs.com/setuptips.asp

As for lossy codecs (you might give them a try), mp3 is surpassed in
quality by the more modern formats (AAC, MPC, Ogg Vorbis, WMA Pro).
For listening tests of various lossy formats at 128 kbit/s and 64
kbit/s see Roberto Amorim's page:

http://audio.ciara.us/test/index.html

Even at a relatively low bitrate like 128 kbit/s, the modern codecs
are surprisingly good. For a slight filesize penalty compared with
128 kbit/s, one can obtain results in which artifacting is virtually
nil, even when auditioned by the most practiced and sensitive ears
(musepack, or MPC, one of the best of these, used at its standard
setting produces files which average about 165 kbit/s).

For discussions of all things related to computer audio, visit the
forums at:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/

For information on making your PC quiet, visit:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/

---
Darryl Miyaguchi
http://ff123.net/abchr/abchr.html
ABC/hr Audio comparison tool

Like Tim, I'm looking to rip my large (2500) CD collection, or at least a
good chunk of it for future use in a computer-based jukebox type system. At
this time, I'm not thinking much about the eventual playback system, but
rather, I want to do the ripping and encoding correctly from the start so I
never have to face the task of re-doing everything again.

At this point, I don't see storage as a limiting factor given the decreasing
cost of hard drives. For that and other reasons, I plan to rip into .wav
files and maintain an original quality digital copy so that I never have to
worry about what I may have given up with lesser formats. I would also like
to be able to rip many of the albums into mps format for casual use, but
perhaps that can be a separate topic.

I have Nero 5.0 which allows ripping into .wav files and this seems to work
reasonably well, but I also want my ripping software to handle song titles,
etc. That is, I don't want to have to type in by hand every bloody bit of
info about each piece of music. What better software is available to
accomplish this, or am I overlooking some feature of Nero that would handle
this already?

- Magnusfarce


P.S. I'm assuming that the ITunes package would not be able to rip into
wav, and that it wouldn't be able to go back into the existing .wav files
and extract the information I want after the fact. I'll download and look
into it anyway. Thanks.


"Tim in Los Angeles" wrote in message
...
I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

Hello Magnumfarce,

Try Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

It will be a little slower than other rippers in order to do the extra
work. Halve as fast or a little faster than halve.

And something almost unbelievable is how it can recover scratched
CD's. A friend had a CD dropped under his car seat and lost it. It
slid around and looked like it had been a door mat for a few weeks.
It would play about 30 seconds on the second track and nothing else.
EAC recovered this entire disc. There were two very small clicks in
one track. Otherwise a perfect copy I was able to burn to CD-R for
my friend. Now it took my computer 9 hours to perform this extreme
feat. But I could hardly believe it even possible. If ripping to wav
I don't know of anything better to ensure good copying.

Good luck,
Dennis

Magnusfarce wrote:
Like Tim, I'm looking to rip my large (2500) CD collection, or at least a
good chunk of it for future use in a computer-based jukebox type system. At
this time, I'm not thinking much about the eventual playback system, but
rather, I want to do the ripping and encoding correctly from the start so I
never have to face the task of re-doing everything again.

At this point, I don't see storage as a limiting factor given the decreasing
cost of hard drives. For that and other reasons, I plan to rip into .wav
files and maintain an original quality digital copy so that I never have to
worry about what I may have given up with lesser formats. I would also like
to be able to rip many of the albums into mps format for casual use, but
perhaps that can be a separate topic.

I have Nero 5.0 which allows ripping into .wav files and this seems to work
reasonably well, but I also want my ripping software to handle song titles,
etc. That is, I don't want to have to type in by hand every bloody bit of
info about each piece of music. What better software is available to
accomplish this, or am I overlooking some feature of Nero that would handle
this already?

- Magnusfarce


P.S. I'm assuming that the ITunes package would not be able to rip into
wav, and that it wouldn't be able to go back into the existing .wav files
and extract the information I want after the fact. I'll download and look
into it anyway. Thanks.



iTunes is what you need. It can encode in .wav format which is an
uncompressed format. It will also extract the title, artist, album info.
for the majority of CD's so that you don't have to type things in. It
has a really good database, and is even able to find info. in different
languages. You can search by title, artist, album, genre, etc.

iTunes will also creat audio CD's for you. You can create a playlist,
and burn an audio CD directly from the playlist, without using any
additional burner program.

I am very impressed with it so far. And the iPod integrates with it very
well. There is a 40GB iPod available, and you can put quite a few albums
into it, even in .wav format.

Thanks. Where can I learn more about jitter settings, etc.? There is a box
to check in Nero for that, as well as ones for "remove silence" and
"automatically generate an M3U playlist." Nero help does not cover any of
these.

- Magnusfarce


"Dennis Moore" wrote in message
news:hKWkb.190371$%h1.181507@sccrnsc02...
Hello Magnumfarce,

Try Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

It will be a little slower than other rippers in order to do the extra
work. Halve as fast or a little faster than halve.

And something almost unbelievable is how it can recover scratched
CD's. A friend had a CD dropped under his car seat and lost it. It
slid around and looked like it had been a door mat for a few weeks.
It would play about 30 seconds on the second track and nothing else.
EAC recovered this entire disc. There were two very small clicks in
one track. Otherwise a perfect copy I was able to burn to CD-R for
my friend. Now it took my computer 9 hours to perform this extreme
feat. But I could hardly believe it even possible. If ripping to wav
I don't know of anything better to ensure good copying.

Good luck,
Dennis

Thanks, Chung. Now that I know that it can rip to .wav format, it may be
the only thing I need. I downloaded it earlier and will install it and
explore it this evening.

Will it rip to mp3 as well, or can I just do that later from the wav. files?

- Magnusfarce

"chung" wrote in message
...
Magnusfarce wrote:
Like Tim, I'm looking to rip my large (2500) CD collection, or at least
a
good chunk of it for future use in a computer-based jukebox type system.
At
this time, I'm not thinking much about the eventual playback system, but
rather, I want to do the ripping and encoding correctly from the start
so I
never have to face the task of re-doing everything again.

At this point, I don't see storage as a limiting factor given the
decreasing
cost of hard drives. For that and other reasons, I plan to rip into
wav
files and maintain an original quality digital copy so that I never have
to
worry about what I may have given up with lesser formats. I would also
like
to be able to rip many of the albums into mps format for casual use, but
perhaps that can be a separate topic.

I have Nero 5.0 which allows ripping into .wav files and this seems to
work
reasonably well, but I also want my ripping software to handle song
titles,
etc. That is, I don't want to have to type in by hand every bloody bit
of
info about each piece of music. What better software is available to
accomplish this, or am I overlooking some feature of Nero that would
handle
this already?

- Magnusfarce


P.S. I'm assuming that the ITunes package would not be able to rip into
wav, and that it wouldn't be able to go back into the existing .wav
files
and extract the information I want after the fact. I'll download and
look
into it anyway. Thanks.



iTunes is what you need. It can encode in .wav format which is an
uncompressed format. It will also extract the title, artist, album info.
for the majority of CD's so that you don't have to type things in. It
has a really good database, and is even able to find info. in different
languages. You can search by title, artist, album, genre, etc.

iTunes will also creat audio CD's for you. You can create a playlist,
and burn an audio CD directly from the playlist, without using any
additional burner program.

I am very impressed with it so far. And the iPod integrates with it very
well. There is a 40GB iPod available, and you can put quite a few albums
into it, even in .wav format.

Magnusfarce wrote:
Thanks, Chung. Now that I know that it can rip to .wav format, it may be
the only thing I need. I downloaded it earlier and will install it and
explore it this evening.

Will it rip to mp3 as well, or can I just do that later from the wav. files?

- Magnusfarce



It can rip to .wav, .aiff, .mp3 and the newer mp4 (ACC) formats. It has
a check box in the "Import" menu where you can enable error correction,
at the expense of increased ripping times. I believe that is the same as
reducing jitter in the read-back process, a feature found on a lot of
ripping programs.

Another good ripper is CDex. It also has jitter reduction/correction in
the read process, and it supports mp3's, wav's etc.

Note that the jitter here means something different than jitter in the
playback process which is caused by DAC clock noise.

Dennis Moore wrote:

Hello Magnumfarce,

Try Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

It will be a little slower than other rippers in order to do the extra
work. Halve as fast or a little faster than halve.

And something almost unbelievable is how it can recover scratched
CD's. A friend had a CD dropped under his car seat and lost it. It
slid around and looked like it had been a door mat for a few weeks.
It would play about 30 seconds on the second track and nothing else.
EAC recovered this entire disc. There were two very small clicks in
one track. Otherwise a perfect copy I was able to burn to CD-R for
my friend. Now it took my computer 9 hours to perform this extreme
feat. But I could hardly believe it even possible. If ripping to wav
I don't know of anything better to ensure good copying.

Will it recover computer data?

I have Nero 5.0 which allows ripping into .wav files and this seems to work
reasonably well, but I also want my ripping software to handle song titles,
etc. That is, I don't want to have to type in by hand every bloody bit of
info about each piece of music. What better software is available to
accomplish this, or am I overlooking some feature of Nero that would handle
this already?

Yes, you have overlooked a feature of Nero. It will access an online
database that has song title and artist information for almost all CDs,
and do various things with them such as printing labels. I made some
compilation CDs for my car with it, and it worked very well with very
little typing of information (I had a couple of promo CDs that it
didn't know about).

Bob

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Dennis Moore wrote:

Hello Magnumfarce,

Try Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

It will be a little slower than other rippers in order to do the extra
work. Halve as fast or a little faster than halve.

And something almost unbelievable is how it can recover scratched
CD's. A friend had a CD dropped under his car seat and lost it. It
slid around and looked like it had been a door mat for a few weeks.
It would play about 30 seconds on the second track and nothing else.
EAC recovered this entire disc. There were two very small clicks in
one track. Otherwise a perfect copy I was able to burn to CD-R for
my friend. Now it took my computer 9 hours to perform this extreme
feat. But I could hardly believe it even possible. If ripping to wav
I don't know of anything better to ensure good copying.

Will it recover computer data?

EAC only does redbook (CDA) data, AFAIK. Though I've never tried
recovering a disc of raw .wav files or .mp3s.

--
-S.

I've downloaded and installed iTunes and this appears to be adequate for my
ripping needs into .wav format. Now for a dumb question: are id3 tags for
mp3 only, or can that same info be tacked onto a .wav file? If so, how can
this be done in iTunes (or Nero for that matter)? Having ripped the same
album in both Nero and iTunes, I see that the file sizes are exactly the
same in each, so I assume that each is doing aproper job. If I use Nero's
online database, will the song title, etc., be attached the wav file or will
I still have to enter the infomation manually? Thanks

- Magnusfarce


wrote in message ...
I have Nero 5.0 which allows ripping into .wav files and this seems to
work
reasonably well, but I also want my ripping software to handle song
titles,
etc. That is, I don't want to have to type in by hand every bloody bit
of
info about each piece of music. What better software is available to
accomplish this, or am I overlooking some feature of Nero that would
handle
this already?

Yes, you have overlooked a feature of Nero. It will access an online
database that has song title and artist information for almost all CDs,
and do various things with them such as printing labels. I made some
compilation CDs for my car with it, and it worked very well with very
little typing of information (I had a couple of promo CDs that it
didn't know about).

Bob

Dennis Moore wrote:
: Hello Magnumfarce,
:
: Try Exact Audio Copy.
: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
:
: You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
: is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
: fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
: a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

I am in the process of archiving all my CDs as well, and Exact Audio Copy
is the only reason I use windows in that process. Far superior than
anything else I ever seen. The pre-track gap detection is also a cool
feature, as you can really clone CDs the right way (I don't want my
MFSL disc to enter my car CD player...).
To reduce overall size on the hard drives, I am using a lossless
compressor, flac [1], it saves 50% which is not bad.
I archive compressed wavs and the cue sheet (in case I need to re-write
CDs).
I currently use a Midiman Dio 2496 to output that to a Meridian 518
(it really helped getting a much better sound), would I get better
result with a better card (just need to output digital)?
Thanks,

[1] http://flac.sourceforge.net/

--
~~Yves

I happen to have a Meridian 518.

My opinion, and it is little more, is a better card feeding
digital to the 518 wouldn't make any difference. Though
I haven't used the 518 with but one card. The 518
reclocks everything with high precision anyway. So if
it locks to the card you have I think that is good enough.

The 518 is an awfully satisfying piece of equipment to
own. I use an MSB A/D converter for all
analog sources, feed this to the 518, which also does
volume control as it feeds my D/A converter. No analog
pre-amp needed.

Dennis





"Yves" wrote in message
news:fBjlb.836361$YN5.927596@sccrnsc01...
Dennis Moore wrote:
: Hello Magnumfarce,
:
: Try Exact Audio Copy.
: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
:
: You can get it free. It also can be pared up to work with LAME which
: is the superior way to do MP3's if you so desire. But this also is
: fantastic at ripping to wav files. It does many things to ensure it is
: a bit for bit exact copy and also to keep jitter in check.

I am in the process of archiving all my CDs as well, and Exact Audio Copy
is the only reason I use windows in that process. Far superior than
anything else I ever seen. The pre-track gap detection is also a cool
feature, as you can really clone CDs the right way (I don't want my
MFSL disc to enter my car CD player...).
To reduce overall size on the hard drives, I am using a lossless
compressor, flac [1], it saves 50% which is not bad.
I archive compressed wavs and the cue sheet (in case I need to re-write
CDs).
I currently use a Midiman Dio 2496 to output that to a Meridian 518
(it really helped getting a much better sound), would I get better
result with a better card (just need to output digital)?
Thanks,

[1] http://flac.sourceforge.net/

--
~~Yves

I've downloaded and installed iTunes and this appears to be adequate for my
ripping needs into .wav format. Now for a dumb question: are id3 tags for
mp3 only, or can that same info be tacked onto a .wav file? If so, how can
this be done in iTunes (or Nero for that matter)? Having ripped the same
album in both Nero and iTunes, I see that the file sizes are exactly the
same in each, so I assume that each is doing aproper job. If I use Nero's
online database, will the song title, etc., be attached the wav file or will
I still have to enter the infomation manually? Thanks

Yes, Nero stores the title information from the database into the WAV
file (or at least, even if you rename the file and move it to another
directory, it still knows that information when you pull it back into
Nero again to create a CD - how it does that, I don't really know, but
it should be impossible without something in the WAV file to identify it).

To get it to do it, you go into the database function first and select
the title information that you want to use (many CDs have more than one
copy of it, and some have errors in them - it looks like it was done by
hobbyists rather than professionals). Then you record the tracks to the
hard drive (remember to select WAV output - it's not the default and
doesn't stay selected from one CD to the next). Once on the hard drive,
the artist/title information stays with the files even when you move them
around to make a compilation CD.

I've had no trouble at all with read errors from Nero, at least not the
kind that show up as clicks or skips like they used to with my older
computer. I don't know whether that's because the Nero software is very
good, or because my cheapo Chinese drive rips audio really well :-)

Bob

wrote in message ...
I've downloaded and installed iTunes and this appears to be adequate for my
ripping needs into .wav format. Now for a dumb question: are id3 tags for
mp3 only, or can that same info be tacked onto a .wav file? If so, how can
this be done in iTunes (or Nero for that matter)? Having ripped the same
album in both Nero and iTunes, I see that the file sizes are exactly the
same in each, so I assume that each is doing aproper job. If I use Nero's
online database, will the song title, etc., be attached the wav file or will
I still have to enter the infomation manually? Thanks

Yes, Nero stores the title information from the database into the WAV
file (or at least, even if you rename the file and move it to another
directory, it still knows that information when you pull it back into
Nero again to create a CD - how it does that, I don't really know, but
it should be impossible without something in the WAV file to identify it).

Wave files, being one member of a class of files called RIFF files
(for Resource Interchange File Format), stores data internally in
self-contained, self-descriptive (to an extent) "chunks." In an
ordinary WAVE file, there are two chunks, the 'fmt ' chunk, which
holds information about the data format (linear PCM, a-Law, ADPCM, MPEG,
and so on), sample rate, number of channels, sample width and so on;
and the 'data' chunk, which actually holds the audio data. Other chunks
can be added, for example, one can add an 'INFO' chunk that allows you
to store some meta-data such as artist and title and such. Another example
is the 'cart' chunk which is actually a formalized standard for storing
metadata for a specific application: broadcast radio traffic/airplay
information (see www.cartchunk.org).

So WAVE files can, indeed, hold this sort of information. They were
designed to.

Magnusfarce wrote:
I've downloaded and installed iTunes and this appears to be adequate for my
ripping needs into .wav format. Now for a dumb question: are id3 tags for
mp3 only, or can that same info be tacked onto a .wav file? If so, how can
this be done in iTunes (or Nero for that matter)? Having ripped the same
album in both Nero and iTunes, I see that the file sizes are exactly the
same in each, so I assume that each is doing aproper job. If I use Nero's
online database, will the song title, etc., be attached the wav file or will
I still have to enter the infomation manually? Thanks

- Magnusfarce



All you need to do to find out for yourself is to create a CD in iTunes
based on the ripped .wav files. Click on create playlist, drag the
selected pieces into the playlist, and click Burn Playlist to CD.

Once you have your burned CD, put it back into the drive and start
iTunes again. Click on CD in the left panel, and the titles will show up
in the right panel.

The short answer is yes, the title info is all preserved in the .wav files.

So, from this I get that I can go ahead and start ripping my CD's into .wav
files, and the song title info, etc. will be in the file, right? Can I
assume that when eventually I settle on
a jukebox or database program of some kind, these data will be available to
help sort and organize the collection?

- Magnusfarce

"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
news:GsDlb.1419$Fm2.3159@attbi_s04...
wrote in message
...
I've downloaded and installed iTunes and this appears to be adequate
for my
ripping needs into .wav format. Now for a dumb question: are id3 tags
for
mp3 only, or can that same info be tacked onto a .wav file? If so, how
can
this be done in iTunes (or Nero for that matter)? Having ripped the
same
album in both Nero and iTunes, I see that the file sizes are exactly
the
same in each, so I assume that each is doing aproper job. If I use
Nero's
online database, will the song title, etc., be attached the wav file or
will
I still have to enter the infomation manually? Thanks

Yes, Nero stores the title information from the database into the WAV
file (or at least, even if you rename the file and move it to another
directory, it still knows that information when you pull it back into
Nero again to create a CD - how it does that, I don't really know, but
it should be impossible without something in the WAV file to identify
it).

Wave files, being one member of a class of files called RIFF files
(for Resource Interchange File Format), stores data internally in
self-contained, self-descriptive (to an extent) "chunks." In an
ordinary WAVE file, there are two chunks, the 'fmt ' chunk, which
holds information about the data format (linear PCM, a-Law, ADPCM, MPEG,
and so on), sample rate, number of channels, sample width and so on;
and the 'data' chunk, which actually holds the audio data. Other chunks
can be added, for example, one can add an 'INFO' chunk that allows you
to store some meta-data such as artist and title and such. Another example
is the 'cart' chunk which is actually a formalized standard for storing
metadata for a specific application: broadcast radio traffic/airplay
information (see www.cartchunk.org).

So WAVE files can, indeed, hold this sort of information. They were
designed to.

So, from this I get that I can go ahead and start ripping my CD's into .wav
files, and the song title info, etc. will be in the file, right? Can I
assume that when eventually I settle on
a jukebox or database program of some kind, these data will be available to
help sort and organize the collection?

I wouldn't go so far as to assume THAT. Just because the programs put
the data in the WAV file doesn't mean there's any standard for the
format of it, such that one program can read what another put in there.
I'd assume the opposite (that is, the format is incompatable between
different programs) until proven otherwise. Been burned too many times :-)

Bob

(Tim in Los Angeles) writes:

I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

What I have done on the music-only side is configured correct read
(and write offsets--I use a burner to rip with). It is also advisable
(if you want perfect sample-for-sample) copies, to use a drive that
has good C2 error correction and can read into the lead-in and
lead-out portions of a CD. C2 error correction should be employed, but
should only really be needed on badly scratched CDs. There are some
interesting tests that you can put together (as linked from the 'DAE
Quality') link on the Exact Audio Copy site) that allows you to craft
your own test disks (similar to the expensive and hard-to-find ABEX
TCD series test discs) and perform measurements on how well your
individual drive performs C2 error correction.

The ability to read into the lead-in and lead-out portions of a CD is
helpful by getting the samples that your player is going to miss on
the first or last tracks of the disc (depending on your drive's own
positive or negative read offset).

Off of the http://www.exactaudiocopy.de website, you will find links
and information pertaining to the precise determination of offset, as
well as other evaluative measures pertaining to your drive. I'd
suggest getting your ripping environment and hardware up to
spec. before starting any extensive ripping. Note: depending on your
present CD drive, you may need to purchase another drive to ensure the
kind of quality that you (may) want to reproduce. Once you are able to
reproduce sample-for-sample CD audio on your computer, the quality
becomes an issue of your listening gear (hardware), in my opinion.

At this point, I suggest utilizing a lossless audio format.
Which one you go with really doesn't matter: SHN (shorten), Monkey's
Audio, etc. Since they're lossless, you can always go back to the
original version, which I think is key considering that we're
trying to maintain a perfect copy, plus if new compression formats
come out that yield higher compression, you can switch to them
relatively painlessly (if those formats offer utilities to batch
transcode).

I utilize Monkey's Audio in its highest compression mode and have
saved enormous amounts of disk space. Since I have nearly every bit
of information on every CD I own in a SQL database, including running
times, catalog IDs, pressing IDs, and so on, I was able to write a
small utility that pretty-well estimates the audio space needed for
the audio formats:

For instance for a total of about 305 CDs in the database, adding up
to 858165 seconds of CD-quality audio, storing as WAVs would be
140.66GB, where using a lossless format (Monkey's Audio in this case)
is 86GB. The savings are phenominal--especially considering _no_
quality loss, as well as the fact that EAC (ExactAudioCopy) will rip
directly to the Monkey's Audio (or Shorten) formats and bypass WAV
altogether.

Monkey's Audio page:
http://www.monkeysaudio.com

What's more impressive is that plug-ins exist for the various
players--namely Winamp, which allows you to play back the audio
without decompression (this is a given for most audio CODECs,
however).

Now, for audio output, I utilize a Midiman M-Audio DELTA DIO 24/96
sound card which is capable of outputting both coaxial and optical
digital signals in both the consumer and professional outputs. The
M-Audio board is touted as being bit-perfect output and supposedly
bypasses some Windows drivers that kill your ability to get
bit-perfect output from most digital hardware (Google Groups this for
more detailed conversation on the issue).

Product information page:
http://www.midiman.com/products/m-audio/dio2496.php

Of course, whether or not you go optical, or electrical with your
digital interconnect is up for a huge debate and one that I cannot
readily comment on, though, this card is supposed to be be pretty
heavy-duty in terms of accurate audio representation.

Lastly, I ask for any comments from anyone who wishes to speak on the
possibility of realistically using a computer to be a transport of
digital audio in this way (or similar ways), such that the music is
not altered during transmission to the preamp/receiver for
playback. By this, I mean, is it ever possible to use a computer in
this capacity such that the digital audio stream would be as pristine
as it is on reference (audiophile) CD audio gear/transports?

Robert Sink wrote:
(Tim in Los Angeles) writes:

I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

What I have done on the music-only side is configured correct read
(and write offsets--I use a burner to rip with). It is also advisable
(if you want perfect sample-for-sample) copies, to use a drive that
has good C2 error correction and can read into the lead-in and
lead-out portions of a CD. C2 error correction should be employed, but
should only really be needed on badly scratched CDs. There are some
interesting tests that you can put together (as linked from the 'DAE
Quality') link on the Exact Audio Copy site) that allows you to craft
your own test disks (similar to the expensive and hard-to-find ABEX
TCD series test discs) and perform measurements on how well your
individual drive performs C2 error correction.

The ability to read into the lead-in and lead-out portions of a CD is
helpful by getting the samples that your player is going to miss on
the first or last tracks of the disc (depending on your drive's own
positive or negative read offset).

Off of the http://www.exactaudiocopy.de website, you will find links
and information pertaining to the precise determination of offset, as
well as other evaluative measures pertaining to your drive. I'd
suggest getting your ripping environment and hardware up to
spec. before starting any extensive ripping. Note: depending on your
present CD drive, you may need to purchase another drive to ensure the
kind of quality that you (may) want to reproduce. Once you are able to
reproduce sample-for-sample CD audio on your computer, the quality
becomes an issue of your listening gear (hardware), in my opinion.

At this point, I suggest utilizing a lossless audio format.
Which one you go with really doesn't matter: SHN (shorten), Monkey's
Audio, etc. Since they're lossless, you can always go back to the
original version, which I think is key considering that we're
trying to maintain a perfect copy, plus if new compression formats
come out that yield higher compression, you can switch to them
relatively painlessly (if those formats offer utilities to batch
transcode).

I utilize Monkey's Audio in its highest compression mode and have
saved enormous amounts of disk space. Since I have nearly every bit
of information on every CD I own in a SQL database, including running
times, catalog IDs, pressing IDs, and so on, I was able to write a
small utility that pretty-well estimates the audio space needed for
the audio formats:

For instance for a total of about 305 CDs in the database, adding up
to 858165 seconds of CD-quality audio, storing as WAVs would be
140.66GB, where using a lossless format (Monkey's Audio in this case)
is 86GB. The savings are phenominal--especially considering _no_
quality loss, as well as the fact that EAC (ExactAudioCopy) will rip
directly to the Monkey's Audio (or Shorten) formats and bypass WAV
altogether.

Monkey's Audio page:
http://www.monkeysaudio.com

What's more impressive is that plug-ins exist for the various
players--namely Winamp, which allows you to play back the audio
without decompression (this is a given for most audio CODECs,
however).

Now, for audio output, I utilize a Midiman M-Audio DELTA DIO 24/96
sound card which is capable of outputting both coaxial and optical
digital signals in both the consumer and professional outputs. The
M-Audio board is touted as being bit-perfect output and supposedly
bypasses some Windows drivers that kill your ability to get
bit-perfect output from most digital hardware (Google Groups this for
more detailed conversation on the issue).

Product information page:
http://www.midiman.com/products/m-audio/dio2496.php

Of course, whether or not you go optical, or electrical with your
digital interconnect is up for a huge debate and one that I cannot
readily comment on, though, this card is supposed to be be pretty
heavy-duty in terms of accurate audio representation.

Lastly, I ask for any comments from anyone who wishes to speak on the
possibility of realistically using a computer to be a transport of
digital audio in this way (or similar ways), such that the music is
not altered during transmission to the preamp/receiver for
playback. By this, I mean, is it ever possible to use a computer in
this capacity such that the digital audio stream would be as pristine
as it is on reference (audiophile) CD audio gear/transports?


I can't think of any fundamental reason why the way you propose will not
be as good as using a reference (audiophile) CD transport. If anything,
the ability to read damaged CD's should be superior in your case. The
only implementation issue is whether the acoustical noise from the
computer can be controlled so that it does not interfere with the music.
I am assuming that the Midiman has a sufficient quality of jitter
performance to render that a non-problem. Any issues with ground loops
are implementation issues, and certainly using the optical interface
would largely remove those.

The ability to instantly access hundreds of CD's is a huge advantage. My
concern is that you need a monitor as part of the user interface. If you
can place the computer in a different room, that would be very good.

Tim in Los Angeles wrote:
I have been browsing the group but haven't yet heard much on the
following subject: High End Sound from the Computer. CD's are
digital sources of music. So are computers. So it seems to me that
it is time to add a computer to my stereo. Why? I watch my kids have
a wonderful time playing music on the computer. The software allows
them to choose songs without fumbling through cd cases, tells them the
song, artist, etc of what they are listening to, etc. In short, ease
of use. However, they are using MP3's which a high end snob like me
won't consider.

Here is my plan: I am going to build a computer in an ultra-quiet
case. I am going to put in a couple of big IDE drives. Most
importantly, I am going to put in a Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe
sound card (very favorably reviewed in Stereophile as well as other
places). I am going to connect the sound card to my PSE preamp using
very high quality interconnects, probably by Audioquest. Should sound
pretty good, don't you think?

I am going to transfer a bunch of my CD's to the hard drives and maybe
later take on the task of transferring LP's of which I have many.
Here are some of the issues I am concerned with: Any recommendations
for software to rip the cd's onto the hard drive? Any recommendations
for software to play the tunes on the hard drive? How about file
formats? From what I read, I need to rip to .wav if I want them to
sound as good as the cd's themselves. Any thoughts?

---I tried for various reasons to build a silent PC and couldn't do it
in a normal ATX form-factor: no CPU fan I tried was really quiet, and I
tried three of the better ones. The most highly-rated expensive $60
fan/heatsink setup I tried was only slightly less noisy than the generic
cheapo $15 one..... -And you can now get mini-ATX setups that use laptop
CPU's and have no CPU fans I have heard--but I have not tried that
myself. What kind of multiple hard-drive options you have on a mini-ATX
mobo I don't know.....
---Assuming you are counting on using a PC, then you would first want to
find out which media player software you like, and then find out which
media formats it can manage. I would avoid any Microsoft WMA options,
just on the basis of MS's constantly shifting DRM standards, and
"automatic update" BS. But I feel you really need to like the jukebox
software FIRST, because that is after all the whole point of what you're
doing. You want something easy and convenient to use, and some programs
may have features you like that others don't. Musicmatch Jukebox is one
very popular program, for one. You can also now buy PC remote controls
that interface with many media player software.
---My opinion is that you should stick to MP3, just because lots of
programs can rip it and most any media player can manage it, and the
track data is basically standardized and readable by all software that
reads MP3 ID3 tags--you will easily have the widest choice of software
to pick from than with anything else. Try ripping a song at decreasing
bit-rates until you can hear the difference, in particular paying
attention to cymbals because they get warbly first. I find typical
128kb/sec files sound poor, 160kb/sec files are indetirminate but
192kb/sec files I have a very hard time discerning from the original CD
playing. Your computer can read every bit of a CD but you can't hear
every bit, so using a totally-lossless format is not that important.
~~~~~~~~

---I tried for various reasons to build a silent PC and couldn't do it
in a normal ATX form-factor:

Check out the Apple Cube from a year or two ago or the Apple iMacs. I know the
cube has no fans unless you order a high end video card.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

Mr 645 wrote:
---I tried for various reasons to build a silent PC and couldn't do it
in a normal ATX form-factor:

Check out the Apple Cube from a year or two ago or the Apple iMacs. I know the
cube has no fans unless you order a high end video card.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com

---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower than
900 Mhz can use a passive heatsink. My current is a couple years old now
and has a 1200 Mhz AMD, and that was too fast for any passive (fanless)
heat sink. The Barracuda hard drives are quiet enough, I think--the CPU
fan is the main problem..... 900 Mhz is pretty slow for playing games
on, but would work just fine for running Win98 and playing music or
DVD's,,,, -and would be cheaper than an Apple to put together also. For
that matter, I have an old PII 350-Mhz that can play DVD's and games
easily.... maybe I shouda tried to build that into a silent machine
first....
~fini~

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:59:07 GMT, DougC
wrote:

---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower than
900 Mhz can use a passive heatsink. My current is a couple years old now

Indeed, fans are usually the problem. AMD CPUs run
appreciably warmer than equivalent Intel CPUs and often
require more agressive heat sinking. However, passive cooling
is available even for most AMD CPUs, according to my research
on the Web.

Several specialized companies sell parts (fans, power
supplies, heat sinks, cases, etc.) to make quiet PCs. Among
them is

http://www.quietpcusa.com/

One of the few firms I have found that supplies complete
systems specifically designed to be quiet is

http://www.endpcnoise.com/

I am not endorsing either firm; I haven't used them. However,
I am in having my next PC be as quiet as possible.

Mike Prager
North Carolina, USA

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 02:58:33 GMT, Mike Prager
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:59:07 GMT, DougC
wrote:

---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower than
900 Mhz can use a passive heatsink. My current is a couple years old now

Indeed, fans are usually the problem. AMD CPUs run
appreciably warmer than equivalent Intel CPUs and often
require more agressive heat sinking. However, passive cooling
is available even for most AMD CPUs, according to my research
on the Web.

Several specialized companies sell parts (fans, power
supplies, heat sinks, cases, etc.) to make quiet PCs. Among
them is

Also check:
http://www.insideproject.com/showrev...m?reviewid=108
For a review of the Sonata case by Antec. I have one of these with
2 extra fans. This case is very quite, can barely hear the modem when
dialing and fans, hard drives, etc are dead quiet. There is no fan
noise (including CPU fan), or drive noise. Drives are shock mounted
and fans are thermally controlled. Price was $125 with 380 Watt power
supply.
Usual disclaimer: No affiliation with Antec except as a satisfied
customer.

-=Bill Eckle=-

Vanity Web pages at:
http://www.wmeckle.com

DougC wrote:

Mr 645 wrote:

---I tried for various reasons to build a silent PC and couldn't do
it in a normal ATX form-factor:

Check out the Apple Cube from a year or two ago or the Apple iMacs. I
know the
cube has no fans unless you order a high end video card.
http://www.jonlayephotography.com


---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower than

If you really want to - check out techtv's website. There was a
blurb on an episode of Screensavers where this guy made a P4 system
that had a total sound of 16db - when running DVDs and games.

It cost him about $200 in refits to an existing design and
included passive cooling and water cooling designs, quiet drives,
putting sound deadening material on the inside of the case, building
a muffler for the fans in back, and so on.

He had to take to to a soundproof room to test it as the ambient noise
in his house was closer to 20-25db with everything turned off.

IIRC, Apple's Cube was about 15-20db - or essentially "silent" in
most environments. My computer, otoh, is closer to 50db.

Hi,

In message vzDob.55642$275.140281@attbi_s53, DougC
writes
Mr 645 wrote:
---I tried for various reasons to build a silent PC and couldn't
do it in a normal ATX form-factor:

It can be done, have a look at http://www.quietpc.com. I've built
several, mainly for pro audio/video editing systems. I'm not talking
about a *totally* silent machine, since there will still be fans for the
power supply. However, we had those even back in the days of 286 CPUs,
and these days they can be very quiet if you choose carefully.

---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower than
900 Mhz can use a passive heatsink.

Any CPU can use a passive heatsink, provided it's efficient enough. For
an Athlon, you might require 600 grams of copper fins, though, so it
might mean a slightly obsessive approach. With passive CPU cooling,
passive graphics cooling, casing for the hard drives and good fans, you
can build a system that's easily quiet enough to be unobtrusive in most
environments. Alternatively, you can buy one off the shelf, from a
specialist such as Carillon.
--
Regards,
Glenn Booth

Glenn Booth wrote:

---Yea, I guess if you -really- wanted a silent PC, then you'd have to
build it out of older parts--if I remember correctly, CPU's slower
than 900 Mhz can use a passive heatsink.


Any CPU can use a passive heatsink, provided it's efficient enough. For
an Athlon, you might require 600 grams of copper fins, though, so it
might mean a slightly obsessive approach.

Correct. There are massive 50+ fin monsters that are good up to 2.8Ghz
P4s(so far). You do need a 120mm fan, though, to draw air over it.