[Tobiah]

It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah

[Tobiah]

Oh, alternatively, no preamps at all, and I'll use the
inserts on a 1402VLZ Pro.


On 05/21/2014 10:56 AM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah

[Jay Ts[_3_]]

On Wed, 21 May 2014 12:55:15 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
Oh, alternatively, no preamps at all, and I'll use the inserts on a
1402VLZ Pro.

On 05/21/2014 10:56 AM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is
supposed to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has
separate knobs for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software
for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah

You are not alone.

I recently tried to upgrade my old laptop to 24/96 or 24/192, and did not
find a suitable solution.

I am still using an M-Audio Transit, which supports 24/48 in both
directions, but 24/96 for input OR output, but not both (I think due to
limitations of its USB 1.1-only operation). So I'm stuck at 24/48.

All I want is hi-def, full duplex, with 1/4" phone jacks for each
channel. I don't want any knobs, buttons, "blinkin lights", or anything
extra. I just need it to accept the line-level outputs from my mixer and
convert it to digital for the computer. I keep thinking, "How hard is
this for them to do? Why are their no products?"

I tried a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and the drivers failed to install. I
learned that their technical support to the US market is crap, and I
won't try any of their products again for a while.

After that I searched again and learned about a couple of new USB audio
interfaces from Tascam (US-322 and US-366) but it seems the drivers are
not mature yet. Both produts are too complicated with too many knobs, but
maybe later I'll reconsider.

That's as far as I got; the old laptop is not worth spending a lot of
money on.

[Jay Ts[_3_]]

oops ... a couple minor corrections of my post:

On Thu, 22 May 2014 08:15:23 +0000, I, Jay Ts wrote:
I just need it to accept the line-level outputs from my mixer and
convert it to digital for the computer.

and of course handle D/A to get analog out of the thing.

I keep thinking, "How hard is
this for them to do? Why are their no products?"

there*

[hank alrich]

Jay Ts wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2014 12:55:15 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
Oh, alternatively, no preamps at all, and I'll use the inserts on a
1402VLZ Pro.

On 05/21/2014 10:56 AM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is
supposed to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has
separate knobs for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software
for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah

You are not alone.

I recently tried to upgrade my old laptop to 24/96 or 24/192, and did not
find a suitable solution.

I am still using an M-Audio Transit, which supports 24/48 in both
directions, but 24/96 for input OR output, but not both (I think due to
limitations of its USB 1.1-only operation). So I'm stuck at 24/48.

All I want is hi-def, full duplex, with 1/4" phone jacks for each
channel. I don't want any knobs, buttons, "blinkin lights", or anything
extra. I just need it to accept the line-level outputs from my mixer and
convert it to digital for the computer. I keep thinking, "How hard is
this for them to do? Why are their no products?"

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.

I tried a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and the drivers failed to install. I
learned that their technical support to the US market is crap, and I
won't try any of their products again for a while.

After that I searched again and learned about a couple of new USB audio
interfaces from Tascam (US-322 and US-366) but it seems the drivers are
not mature yet. Both produts are too complicated with too many knobs, but
maybe later I'll reconsider.

That's as far as I got; the old laptop is not worth spending a lot of
money on.


--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Jay Ts[_3_]]

On Thu, 22 May 2014 10:15:34 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.

Well, some of us need just a very simple but good interface.

It is a relatively simple design to put a hi-def codec in a box with a
USB interface on one side and 4 audio jacks on the other.

Nowadays, there is no shortage of decent codecs to use:

http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/co...ml#PA157_stDiv

I think the M-Audio Transit originally sold for about $100, and I'm
willing to pay more than that for an upgrade.

I guess it's unfortunate that "simple" doesn't make so much money for the
manufacturers.

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
All I want is hi-def, full duplex, with 1/4" phone jacks for each
channel. I don't want any knobs, buttons, "blinkin lights", or anything
extra. I just need it to accept the line-level outputs from my mixer and
convert it to digital for the computer. I keep thinking, "How hard is
this for them to do? Why are their no products?"

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.

You stick a MADI card in the machine, you get yourself a nice A/D with a
MADI interface from any place from Weiss on the high end to RME on the low
end, and you go. No, it's not cheap... but it will last you a long time
and when the computer standards all change you get a MADI card for
whatever the next thing that comes along is.

And, although the hardware is very expensive compared with the low end
consumer stuff, it's still extremely cheap considering how it sounds and
considering what comparable hardware would have cost you a decade ago.
--scott

Well said. Hell, my MIO is so nicely amortized now, and looks to run as
long as I do.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Jay Ts wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2014 10:15:34 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.

Well, some of us need just a very simple but good interface.

It is a relatively simple design to put a hi-def codec in a box with a
USB interface on one side and 4 audio jacks on the other.

Nowadays, there is no shortage of decent codecs to use:

http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/co...ml#PA157_stDiv

I think the M-Audio Transit originally sold for about $100, and I'm
willing to pay more than that for an upgrade.

I guess it's unfortunate that "simple" doesn't make so much money for the
manufacturers.

There is some very simple stuff that also happens to be very good or
even excellent. But it's built for those who are serious enough about
audio quality not to be shopping on price primarily.

My Metric Halo 2882 has no knobs, and a few little buttons, with no
display other than metering. It is dead simple in layout and "features".
It sounds excellent, interfaces pretty well with a range of sources, is
reliable under road conditions, and versatile. It was neither cheap nor
exhorbitantly expensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Sean Conolly]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Jay Ts wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2014 10:15:34 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.

Well, some of us need just a very simple but good interface.

It is a relatively simple design to put a hi-def codec in a box with a
USB interface on one side and 4 audio jacks on the other.

Nowadays, there is no shortage of decent codecs to use:

http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/co...ml#PA157_stDiv

I think the M-Audio Transit originally sold for about $100, and I'm
willing to pay more than that for an upgrade.

I guess it's unfortunate that "simple" doesn't make so much money for the
manufacturers.

There is some very simple stuff that also happens to be very good or
even excellent. But it's built for those who are serious enough about
audio quality not to be shopping on price primarily.

My Metric Halo 2882 has no knobs, and a few little buttons, with no
display other than metering. It is dead simple in layout and "features".
It sounds excellent, interfaces pretty well with a range of sources, is
reliable under road conditions, and versatile. It was neither cheap nor
exhorbitantly expensive.

There's a lot of choices in that price range that will work and sound just
fine. The big hurdle is finding one where you can get the drivers installed
and running properly, and that varies a lot between companies.

I haven't had a chance to play with many of these recently, but my past
experience was that Echo and M-Audio seemed to value the PC market enough to
make sure their installers worked on most version of Windows.

Mike covers this in his reviews - so take a look the
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com/product-reviews/

Sean

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/22/2014 10:32 PM, Sean Conolly wrote:
There's a lot of choices in that price range that will work and sound just
fine. The big hurdle is finding one where you can get the drivers installed
and running properly, and that varies a lot between companies.

Drivers were an iffy thing early on, but many companies, particularly
those who make lower cost interfaces, are using drivers written by just
a couple of software developers who work with the most common chips.
Also, Windows seems to have settled down, as has the Apple Core Audio
which, apparently, is a good enough standard, as is the computer
hardware, so that people can write for it and be reasonably sure that
it'll work.

The thing about price range, as I believe Hank pointed out, is that when
it comes to the number of devices that must be built and sold in order
to meet what the marketing department determines to be the competitive
price, means that the features that most potential customers want, or
think they want, or features included in competing products. It doesn't
save money to make a version with some parts or features left out when
you know that you aren't going to sell truckloads of them.

There's nothing wrong with having a mic preamp that you aren't going to
use. It's better, if you don't need the mic preamp, to get a higher
quality interface without one, at a commensurately higher price - if you
actually need the better quality. But you won't get a less expensive
version of a modestly priced interface without a preamp. Below a certain
selling price, it's simply not worth designing, documenting, and marketing.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 5/22/2014 10:32 PM, Sean Conolly wrote:
There's a lot of choices in that price range that will work and sound just
fine. The big hurdle is finding one where you can get the drivers installed
and running properly, and that varies a lot between companies.

Drivers were an iffy thing early on, but many companies, particularly
those who make lower cost interfaces, are using drivers written by just
a couple of software developers who work with the most common chips.
Also, Windows seems to have settled down, as has the Apple Core Audio
which, apparently, is a good enough standard, as is the computer
hardware, so that people can write for it and be reasonably sure that
it'll work.

The thing about price range, as I believe Hank pointed out, is that when
it comes to the number of devices that must be built and sold in order
to meet what the marketing department determines to be the competitive
price, means that the features that most potential customers want, or
think they want, or features included in competing products. It doesn't
save money to make a version with some parts or features left out when
you know that you aren't going to sell truckloads of them.

Given that packaging and powering represent about the same cost for the
goody with eight I/O's as for the one with four ins/outs, and that
meeting regulatory requirements for powering, EM and RF emissions, and
the rest of the design and development stages will, too, it's tough for
any company to meet niche demands near the bottom of the price ladder.

There's nothing wrong with having a mic preamp that you aren't going to
use. It's better, if you don't need the mic preamp, to get a higher
quality interface without one, at a commensurately higher price - if you
actually need the better quality. But you won't get a less expensive
version of a modestly priced interface without a preamp. Below a certain
selling price, it's simply not worth designing, documenting, and marketing.

Especially when the modern inexpensive solid-state preamp is essentially
the line amp with a different gain setting.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah


Why does a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 not do what you want? It's $250 street.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

hank alrich wrote:
Jay Ts wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2014 12:55:15 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
Oh, alternatively, no preamps at all, and I'll use the inserts on a
1402VLZ Pro.

On 05/21/2014 10:56 AM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is
supposed to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has
separate knobs for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software
for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah

You are not alone.

I recently tried to upgrade my old laptop to 24/96 or 24/192, and did not
find a suitable solution.

I am still using an M-Audio Transit, which supports 24/48 in both
directions, but 24/96 for input OR output, but not both (I think due to
limitations of its USB 1.1-only operation). So I'm stuck at 24/48.

All I want is hi-def, full duplex, with 1/4" phone jacks for each
channel. I don't want any knobs, buttons, "blinkin lights", or anything
extra. I just need it to accept the line-level outputs from my mixer and
convert it to digital for the computer. I keep thinking, "How hard is
this for them to do? Why are their no products?"

Because y'all want it too cheap, and your perceived needs don't include
some basic features in which most of the market at that level is
interested.


I want it way too cheap, and they have what I want. Life is good.

I tried a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and the drivers failed to install. I
learned that their technical support to the US market is crap, and I
won't try any of their products again for a while.

After that I searched again and learned about a couple of new USB audio
interfaces from Tascam (US-322 and US-366) but it seems the drivers are
not mature yet. Both produts are too complicated with too many knobs, but
maybe later I'll reconsider.

That's as far as I got; the old laptop is not worth spending a lot of
money on.



--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Jay Ts wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 12:55:15 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
snip

I tried a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and the drivers failed to install. I
learned that their technical support to the US market is crap, and I
won't try any of their products again for a while.


So why did the drivers fail to install? 64 vs 32 bit issues? WinXP vs.
Win7?

I have a Scarlett 18i20 and it works *just great*. I use it with
Reaper for my cue mix here at home on a $400 Win7 desktop from
2011.

The only real annoyance is that I have to log out and log back in to get
Windows to clean itself when I start tracking. But I run this thing
as an Internet computer and all that.

It doesn't work 100% with crufty old n-Track 3.0 but I live
with that. No, their support didn't help with that but if I wanted
things to work I could upgrade n-Track or just use Reaper.


As it says in the book "The Stand" - the world moved on.

snip
That's as far as I got; the old laptop is not worth spending a lot of
money on.




Ach. That's not getting any better If you can prize loose $1k for a
laptop these days, they're very good if you buy the right one. I use a
very nice 8-core Toshiba at work and it screams.

--
Les Cargill

[Sean Conolly]

"Les Cargill" wrote in message
...
I have a Scarlett 18i20 and it works *just great*. I use it with
Reaper for my cue mix here at home on a $400 Win7 desktop from
2011.

I think that's where I'm headed for my laptop. That and a little Behringer
ADA8000 will give me plenty of mic and line inputs for recording a jam or a
gig without too much hassle.

But the built-in recorder for the A&H QU-16 is soooo tempting, and it comes
with a great digital mixer :-)

Sean

[DanielleOM]

On 5/21/2014 1:56 PM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah


Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).


Danielle

[Phil W[_3_]]

Sean Conolly:

But the built-in recorder for the A&H QU-16 is soooo tempting, and it
comes with a great digital mixer :-)

.... and it gives you the option of having recorded a noise stream instead of
the gig! ;-) Happened to some friends of mine a few months ago with a rented
QU16. A&H seems to have revised the firmware a few times. No, I do *not*
know, which version did not record properly in this particular, sorry...
Fortunately, it wasn´t important to have a recording of the gig. Rather for
self-control by the band afterwards.

Besides that, I found, that the QU-16 is almost unusable in dark live mix
situations. The buttons are *not* backlit and the LEDs above/under them are
so bright, that one can´t see anything clearly in a radius of ca. 3 cm
around them. :-\ You definitely need a small lamp...

On the paper, it´s a nice feature-packed mixer, but in the reality "out
there", it has too many small bugs.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Les Cargill" wrote in message
...
I have a Scarlett 18i20 and it works *just great*. I use it with
Reaper for my cue mix here at home on a $400 Win7 desktop from
2011.

I think that's where I'm headed for my laptop. That and a little Behringer
ADA8000 will give me plenty of mic and line inputs for recording a jam or a
gig without too much hassle.

But the built-in recorder for the A&H QU-16 is soooo tempting, and it comes
with a great digital mixer :-)

Sean



Looks great.

I looked very seriously at the ZED-R16 but it took up too much space,
as compact as it was.

In very few square feet, I have a lot of instruments; having the mixer
be on the computer saves me ten or so sq. feet. I'm not running a
studio-as-a-business.

The Scarlett also means I can have two RU plus laptop worth of recording
gear to do live remote recording, not that that has
any interest.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/24/2014 7:46 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).

How does your friend know that the problem is with the preamps? Is she
setting the gain properly?


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[geoff]

On 24/05/2014 11:46 p.m., DanielleOM wrote:
On 5/21/2014 1:56 PM, Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah


Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).


Danielle




Might be phsycological ....

geoff

[DanielleOM]

On 5/24/2014 6:04 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/24/2014 7:46 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).

How does your friend know that the problem is with the preamps? Is she
setting the gain properly?





I know she has used a lot of equipment over the past 20 years in both
live sound and recording situations. I know she likes the Motu preamps
and the preamps Soundcraft uses in their mixing boards. She has a quite
of variety of microphones, including the ones I own. :-) For a while
she had one of the Grace audio preamps to use. I have no doubt that she
knows how to set a gain properly.

I think her comments come from experience with Yamaha live sound mixing
boards. (not the low cost MG series). I have to wonder if those
preamps have a similar tonal character / response as the ones that
Steinberg/Yamaha used in the UR44.

Actually I am thinking perhaps a lot of this is personal preference. I
just saw another post where the writer wrote that he prefers the
pre-amps in the Steinberg UR series to the ones in the Focusrite
Scarlett series.

It's been a weird weekend so far. I did get my Soundcraft mixer back a
week ago and managed to do some recording. Friday I installed Sonar X3
primarily to be on the same page as my friend. An hour after installing
the new software I get a call that she wants to borrow my mixer, and the
one mic and cable I have here, as she is short equipment for a full band
recording she had to do yesterday. I think she goes a little crazy when
it comes to drum kits and really gobbles up the channels. She borrowed
my board as she was short two mic preamps. Knowing what she has their
she must have been planning on using 16 channels.

As I really wanted to play with the new software installation, I went
and found a driver for the Zoom G2.1u multi EFX guitar pedal I have
here. Although older, Zoom brought out the 64 bit Win 8 compliant
driver. I installed it OK and it worked fine with Reaper. I could not
get it to work properly with Sonar X3. It recorded but somehow I
managed to turn my Sonar installation into a "clicking sound"
generator. Still have not fixed it.

Some how I need to come up with a solution where I keep a DAW together
without equipment being yanked out of it for live sound gigs or the
needs of my friend.


Danielle

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 5/24/2014 7:46 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).

How does your friend know that the problem is with the preamps? Is she
setting the gain properly?

People say, again and again in public, how bad the big Yamaha digital
mixers sound. Then I listen in Jim Finney's livingroom to a pair of
Meyer 833's, while he is playing back live mixes of Asleep at the Wheel,
with whom he has nearly 30 years at FOH and road mgmt. The sound is as
good or better than that of their studio albums, done on API, etc., kit.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/25/2014 7:28 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

I think her comments come from experience with Yamaha live sound mixing
boards. (not the low cost MG series). I have to wonder if those
preamps have a similar tonal character / response as the ones that
Steinberg/Yamaha used in the UR44.

The Yamaha and Steinberg design teams are in different countries - Japan
and Germany respectively. They did manage to get together for the Nuage
console/control surface for Nuendo, though the UR series interfaces uses
a preamp similar to that in the MGP mixer series, which is "based on" a
preamp developed for their professional live sound mixers which, from
its description and a couple of reviews I've read, appears to be very
similar to the circuit that Mackie has been using for years. This is why
I say that the preamps in these mid-range products, whether consoles or
interfaces, while not exactly the same circuit, are similar. If there's
a difference between one product and another, it isn't likely to be
solely because of the preamps.

Actually I am thinking perhaps a lot of this is personal preference. I
just saw another post where the writer wrote that he prefers the
pre-amps in the Steinberg UR series to the ones in the Focusrite
Scarlett series.

Writers tend to like what they're writing about at the moment. If
there's a real problem, they'll write about that as a problem, not a
preference. And since no two mic preamps sound absolutely identical, one
can have preferences, and preferences can change. If he reviews a MOTU
next month, he might write that he prefers its sound to that of the
Focusrite but not mention the Yamaha.

You should be looking at other features besides the preamp. For one
thing, none of them are going to be so bad that you won't want to use
them, and for another, you can always use another preamp with the
interface that's otherwise best for you. You may find that the built-in
preamp is fine for nearly everything you do, but a certain combination
of mic and outboard preamp is just right some times, so you can use it.
You're only paying about $5 each for the built-in preamps so it's not
like you're buying something expensive that you don't like to use.

As I really wanted to play with the new software installation, I went
and found a driver for the Zoom G2.1u multi EFX guitar pedal I have
here. Although older, Zoom brought out the 64 bit Win 8 compliant
driver. I installed it OK and it worked fine with Reaper. I could not
get it to work properly with Sonar X3.

That sounds like a kind of iffy combination.

Some how I need to come up with a solution where I keep a DAW together
without equipment being yanked out of it for live sound gigs or the
needs of my friend.

As I recall, your requirements were pretty minimal. Have you thought
about something like an Allen & Heath ZED-10 mixer? It has two channels
of USB in and out which have a little flexibility in what goes to the
computer, you have four mic inputs with two of them having instrument DI
alternates and two having line level alternates, and you have all the
direct (really zero) latency monitoring comfort of having a real mixer.
It's not very big, and too small for your friend to want to borrow.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[hank alrich]

DanielleOM wrote:

On 5/24/2014 6:04 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/24/2014 7:46 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

Any one look at the Steinberg UR44? Don't think it has the mix knob
like the UR22. A friend of mine keeps telling me she does not like the
sound of Yamaha pre-amps, used in the Steinberg product. (Prefers
Soundcraft and Motu to Yamaha).

How does your friend know that the problem is with the preamps? Is she
setting the gain properly?





I know she has used a lot of equipment over the past 20 years in both
live sound and recording situations. I know she likes the Motu preamps
and the preamps Soundcraft uses in their mixing boards.

I know I have been surprised by the good performance of some MOTU
preamps in a small interface at a home studio in Austin where I've done
a couple of mandolin overdub sessions. In general I'd say I like
Soundcraft mic pres, too, but in specific I'd say they aren't the same
across the line. I know I still think the Mackie Onyx pres are
surprsingly good, as is the EQ.

She has a quite
of variety of microphones, including the ones I own. :-) For a while
she had one of the Grace audio preamps to use. I have no doubt that she
knows how to set a gain properly.

I think her comments come from experience with Yamaha live sound mixing
boards. (not the low cost MG series).

See my remark in another post. People say this stuff and then a pal of
mine delivers _world class_ mixes from Yammie live consoles all over the
planet. There are various levels (heh) of "knowing how to set gain".

I have to wonder if those
preamps have a similar tonal character / response as the ones that
Steinberg/Yamaha used in the UR44.

Actually I am thinking perhaps a lot of this is personal preference. I
just saw another post where the writer wrote that he prefers the
pre-amps in the Steinberg UR series to the ones in the Focusrite
Scarlett series.

It's been a weird weekend so far. I did get my Soundcraft mixer back a
week ago and managed to do some recording. Friday I installed Sonar X3
primarily to be on the same page as my friend. An hour after installing
the new software I get a call that she wants to borrow my mixer, and the
one mic and cable I have here, as she is short equipment for a full band
recording she had to do yesterday. I think she goes a little crazy when
it comes to drum kits and really gobbles up the channels. She borrowed
my board as she was short two mic preamps. Knowing what she has their
she must have been planning on using 16 channels.

As I really wanted to play with the new software installation, I went
and found a driver for the Zoom G2.1u multi EFX guitar pedal I have
here. Although older, Zoom brought out the 64 bit Win 8 compliant
driver. I installed it OK and it worked fine with Reaper. I could not
get it to work properly with Sonar X3. It recorded but somehow I
managed to turn my Sonar installation into a "clicking sound"
generator. Still have not fixed it.

Some how I need to come up with a solution where I keep a DAW together
without equipment being yanked out of it for live sound gigs or the
needs of my friend.

Get something from MOTU and be done with it, until she asks to borrow
it. g

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Frank Stearns]

(hank alrich) writes:

-snips-

See my remark in another post. People say this stuff and then a pal of
mine delivers _world class_ mixes from Yammie live consoles all over the
planet. There are various levels (heh) of "knowing how to set gain".

With the "big" Yamaha digital consoles, such as the older M7CL, this hits the nail
right on the head.

The thing can sound mediocre-to-annoying, or it can sound pretty good. My take is
that for good sound, you need to keep the levels up nice and hot (but not clip)
until you get to a master -- take out the "excess" gain there, rather than starting
with low signals at the A-Ds. ("Excess gain" being the typical PA system practice of
running power amp pots wide open, which typically adds 10 dB of gain you often don't
want or need (nor do you need the noise it brings up). Unity is more often at the 2
o'clock position on the pot.)

Anyway, what I can surmise is that at least in that generation of console you don't
get 24 bits, you get more like 18-19 bits, with the other 5-6 bits being perhaps
used for carry from DSP arithmetic. And, it's likely that in conjuction with that
they truncate rather do floating point, have a wider internal buss, dither, or
whatever. They do have a price point to keep, and those consoles do quite a bit for
the money.

When I got better about keeping good levels from the front end, shows started
sounding sweeter (and I've been chasing sweetness in that system every time I do
something there -- it's elusive, but possible if one strains a bit).

But yes, gain structure very important in those beasties.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[DanielleOM]

On 5/25/2014 3:54 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
(hank alrich) writes:

-snips-

See my remark in another post. People say this stuff and then a pal of
mine delivers _world class_ mixes from Yammie live consoles all over the
planet. There are various levels (heh) of "knowing how to set gain".
With the "big" Yamaha digital consoles, such as the older M7CL, this hits the nail
right on the head.

The thing can sound mediocre-to-annoying, or it can sound pretty good. My take is
that for good sound, you need to keep the levels up nice and hot (but not clip)
until you get to a master -- take out the "excess" gain there, rather than starting
with low signals at the A-Ds. ("Excess gain" being the typical PA system practice of
running power amp pots wide open, which typically adds 10 dB of gain you often don't
want or need (nor do you need the noise it brings up). Unity is more often at the 2
o'clock position on the pot.)

Anyway, what I can surmise is that at least in that generation of console you don't
get 24 bits, you get more like 18-19 bits, with the other 5-6 bits being perhaps
used for carry from DSP arithmetic. And, it's likely that in conjuction with that
they truncate rather do floating point, have a wider internal buss, dither, or
whatever. They do have a price point to keep, and those consoles do quite a bit for
the money.

When I got better about keeping good levels from the front end, shows started
sounding sweeter (and I've been chasing sweetness in that system every time I do
something there -- it's elusive, but possible if one strains a bit).

But yes, gain structure very important in those beasties.

Frank
Mobile Audio



I had recently hosted an acoustic open mic for 4 years. I would say
that my experience was very similar with the small set up I was using.
Even though my equipment was not high end by any means, I do believe it
was better than what I saw at most small open mic local events.

For equipment I used
Shure Beta dynamic mics
Soundcraft EFX8 mixer
Powered JBL EON 10 speakers
A couple passive guitar center brand DIs (for instrument cables)
Studio Projects VTB1

From my experience, I also found getting that sweet spot on the gain
was critical to getting a good sound. Too little and it seemed all of
the dynamics and life were lost. I would try to adjust the gain at the
power signal, so that could keep reasonable signal levels in the mixer.
If I had too much amplification at the powered speakers, the LED
indicators on the output could not be used at all. I did very little EQ
tweaking at the open mic, and the little I did was primarily done to
take that lower end boom sound out of dreadnought style guitars.

I must have be doing something right, because we did get frequent good
comments about the sound quality.

But I would agree there's people out there that use gains in ways that
actually seem strange to me. I see too many where people plug guitars
into line inputs. Eyes would glaze over if I tried to explain the
importance of input and output impedance and division of the signal at
different frequencies. I saw another where the host always kept his
fader levels up and then used the gain knobs to control the volume.

I found that little VTB1 came in handy for taking some of the harshness
off of guitars with old under saddle piezo pickups. I think piezo
pickups now are much better than the early ones. It was only tool I had
that seemed to take the harshness off of those older pickups and still
leave some life in the signal.

I recall one performer there where I found myself debating on what do
with the vocal. He kept enough distance from the mic, where I don't
think there was any real proximity effect. However he had this voice
with a huge amount of lower end resonance that I found to be a little
bit overwhelming. I would tone it down a little with the EQ, but I was
always afraid to go too far with that because I kept thinking if I went
too far the amplified voice would not sound like him.


Danielle

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/26/2014 8:53 AM, DanielleOM wrote:

From my experience, I also found getting that sweet spot on the gain
was critical to getting a good sound. Too little and it seemed all of
the dynamics and life were lost. I would try to adjust the gain at the
power signal, so that could keep reasonable signal levels in the mixer.
If I had too much amplification at the powered speakers, the LED
indicators on the output could not be used at all.

This is indeed important. You want to keep the mixer working in its
designed range. My usual procedure is to play something into the mixer,
set the mixer input gain so that with the channel fader and master fader
2/3 to 3/4 of the way up (the "unity gain" position if it's marked) you
can get an eyeball average reading in the 0 to +10 ballpark on the
output level meters. Just where depends on how the meters are calibrated
and their resolution. Some have only one LED between 0 (the nominal
design center) and just below peak. Then adjust the power amplifier gain
or the powered speaker input level so that what you're hearing from the
speakers is loud enough. If you can't get it loud enough without
clipping, then you need more power.

But I would agree there's people out there that use gains in ways that
actually seem strange to me. I see too many where people plug guitars
into line inputs. Eyes would glaze over if I tried to explain the
importance of input and output impedance and division of the signal at
different frequencies.

If the plug fits, that's where it goes, right? It's a common mistake
among users who don't know the characteristics of the various inputs.
Some people will plug a mic with a 1/4" plug into those line level
jacks, too.

I saw another where the host always kept his
fader levels up and then used the gain knobs to control the volume.

Actually, that's not a bad way to start. When you have the power
amplifier gain set correctly, set the master fader and all the faders
that you're using to their "unity" position, then do a rough mix using
the input gains on the channels (if there are any). This will assure
that neither the input channels nor the mix bus is clipping. Once the
gains are in the ballpark, unless someone changes instruments and
there's a big difference in the level going into that mic, you can leave
the gains alone and mix with the faders like you're supposed to.

I recall one performer there where I found myself debating on what do
with the vocal. He kept enough distance from the mic, where I don't
think there was any real proximity effect. However he had this voice
with a huge amount of lower end resonance that I found to be a little
bit overwhelming.

Well, you know what he sounds like without the PA, just make him sound
like that with the PA. Simple?



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Tobiah]

On 05/23/2014 11:16 AM, Les Cargill wrote:
Tobiah wrote:
It is PCIe, or USB, or lastly firewire. It has at least four excellent
very low noise universal input preamps, and at least four outputs.
It doesn't make the mistake of having a lame 'mix' knob that is supposed
to balance line input monitoring and DAW output - it has separate knobs
for each, or better, has no knobs and relies on software for all of this.
It costs around $300 - $350. Where is it?

Thanks,

Tobiah


Why does a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 not do what you want? It's $250 street.


I wanted at least four preamps, although using my 1402VLZ Pro preamps is
a possibility. I could eliminate the mixer altogether if the interface
had four or six equal or better preamps.

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank Stearns wrote:

The thing can sound mediocre-to-annoying, or it can sound pretty good. My take is
that for good sound, you need to keep the levels up nice and hot (but not clip)
until you get to a master -- take out the "excess" gain there, rather than starting
with low signals at the A-Ds. ("Excess gain" being the typical PA system practice of
running power amp pots wide open, which typically adds 10 dB of gain you often don't
want or need (nor do you need the noise it brings up). Unity is more often at the 2
o'clock position on the pot.)

See, this kind of thing DRIVES ME UP THE WALL.

A lot of inexpensive consoles have gain controls in the feedback loop in such
a way that the distortion spectrum and (in the case of some brand M products)
sometimes even the frequency response changes as you adjust the trim.

You add to that nonlinearities... problems like you describe where you need
to keep the gain way up indicate to me a possible dead band issue where you
get crossover distortion at low level.

And I am just TIRED OF THIS. There are a lot of older consoles where you
can just pot everything up anywhere and as long as it isn't clipping and it
is above the noise floor it sounds the same as it does at any other gain
setting. Why can't I get this on newer gear?

It's not that it's digital either, there are plenty of inexpensive analogue
consoles that are very, very touchy about operating levels.

When I got better about keeping good levels from the front end, shows started
sounding sweeter (and I've been chasing sweetness in that system every time I do
something there -- it's elusive, but possible if one strains a bit).

But yes, gain structure very important in those beasties.

And what everybody liked about the PM-1000 is that it wasn't so important....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."