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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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In article ,
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/5/2014 7:08 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


The question was irrelevant to my original statement.


It was in context for the thread. Which is about 'home' soldering - not
manufacture. ;-)

Many seem to think it's not possible to buy leaded solder.


I'm sure there must be a country where leaded electronics-type solder
isn't available but there's no problem ordering it from Digi-Key in the
US


Lots of choices he http://tinyurl.com/ljb38pb


Yup - same in the UK. But not on the high street, probably.

I guess plumbers don't use leaded solder any more, but that's so we
don't drink the lead.


It can still be bought and used on non potable water here. Like the
heating system, etc.

But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.


That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk since it
can get sanded down.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.


That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk since it
can get sanded down.


Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
ultimately find their way to a landfill.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Ron C[_2_] Ron C[_2_] is offline
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On 5/6/2014 11:31 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.


That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
since it
can get sanded down.


Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
ultimately find their way to a landfill.


I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

==
Later...
Ron Capik
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
would like to see evidence one way or another.

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.


Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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"William Sommerwerck" writes:

"Ron C" wrote in message
m...


I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
would like to see evidence one way or another.


A good suspicion to have. Most land fills these days are lined, so going to
lead-free is rather moot on that point.

What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the overwhelming use of
lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-smelt nickel), while electronics is a small
percentage. But electric cars are environmentally hip, so we ignore the dirty
smelting in those cases. Appears to be another instance of uninformed emotion
trumping rational thought, and in the process causing many unintended consequences,
such a circuit-shorting tin whiskers or poorly seated parts. And from that, we waste
more resources as we replace this crap wholesale with a greater frequency. (I'm just
glad avionics and medical gear are exempt from these absurd rules.)

Frank
Mobile Audio
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 7/05/2014 3:31 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.


That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
since it
can get sanded down.


Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
ultimately find their way to a landfill.


Thought they'd exclusively use plastic expoxy filler for decades now !

geoff

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geoff geoff is offline
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On 7/05/2014 4:44 a.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.


Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.



Oh it definitely is - look what happened to Rome. Mind you, I heard
(maybe an urban legend) that many water mains in the USA still use lead
piping. If true, that may explain a few things ....

All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.

geoff
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 06/05/2014 22:07, geoff wrote:
On 7/05/2014 3:31 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/6/2014 10:17 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But do auto body shops still use solder? If so, is
it lead-free? Probably not.

That's still available too - despite being likely a real H&S risk
since it
can get sanded down.


Not only that, but cars that have dents filled with lead solder
ultimately find their way to a landfill.


Thought they'd exclusively use plastic expoxy filler for decades now !

Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few
dozen cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most
cases.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message
...

Look what happened to Rome.


Romans supposedly liked to sweeten their wine with sugar of lead -- lead(ii)
acetate. This contributed to lead poisoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate

By the way, lead acetate is the stuff in Grecian Formula and other "comb-in"
hair colorants.


Mind you, I heard (maybe an urban legend) that many water mains
in the USA still use lead piping. If true, that may explain a few things...


I don't know if they still are, but as late as the 1920s, lead manufacturers
touted how lead pipes kept the water supply pure. (I'm seen the ads.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2509614/


All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics!)
is an enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.


It's not likely to happen -- considering the amount of electronic waste
generated, and the way much is sent to third-world countries for cheap
extraction of gold and (I assume) copper.



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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...

What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the
overwhelming use of lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-
smelt nickel), while electronics is a small percentage.


But lead batteries are heavily recycled -- not dumped into landfills.

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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 5/6/2014 12:26 PM, Ron C wrote:
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).

There indeed is lead free body solder now. Why am I not surprised?


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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geoff wrote:
On 7/05/2014 4:44 a.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 06/05/2014 17:35, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.

The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the
water supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is
significant. I would like to see evidence one way or another.


Compared with what leaks out when the electrolytics corrode, I'd not
reckon it's even in the same league of harmfulness.



Oh it definitely is - look what happened to Rome. Mind you, I heard
(maybe an urban legend) that many water mains in the USA still use lead
piping. If true, that may explain a few things ....


That was not the lead piping. It was lead salts used as a sweetener.

All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.


Nobody wants to pay for that.


geoff


--
Les Cargill

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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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In article ,
Mike Rivers wrote:
This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).


I'd be most surprised if any body shop used lead these days to fill a dent
- except where it was used on a classic, etc. Far too expensive.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 7/05/2014 10:53 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/6/2014 12:26 PM, Ron C wrote:
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


This is the argument that the small electronic manufacturers are giving,
but consider how much solder is in a phone compared to a solder-filled
dent in a fender. The solder they use for auto body repair comes in bars
about 1/4" x 1/2" and is 70% lead (30 % tin).

There indeed is lead free body solder now. Why am I not surprised?


I'm sure the amount of (potential) lead in solder would be a zillion
times the amount of lead used in rare automotive repairs.


geoff



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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
m...

I'm not sure how much of an environmental problem that would
pose. A recent episode of "Cosmos" spent a lot of time on
lead pollution and it seems tetraethyl lead in fuel was the primary
offender and next down the line was lead in paint. Both of those
sources present very large surface areas to the environment.
I suspect (though I've never seen any supportive data) that lead
solder in all it's uses has a tiny impact on the environment.
I'd be interested in seeing environmental impact data, pro or con.


The claim (of which I remain suspicious) is that lead leaches into the water
supply from discarded electronic equipment, and the amount is significant. I
would like to see evidence one way or another.


I have no doubt that this does happen, and it's probably an issue with
discarded electronic equipment in landfills.

But if anything, the RoHS rules have increased the amount of electronic
equipment being discarded, which does not seem like an improvement from an
ecological perspective to me, even if lead itself might be reduced.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
nacquisition...

What I find silly is that battery production accounts for the
overwhelming use of lead (along with the equally-nasty-to-
smelt nickel), while electronics is a small percentage.


But lead batteries are heavily recycled -- not dumped into landfills.


They're recycled in REALLY SCARY facilities in Tijuana.... the landfill
might even be an improvement...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Les Cargill" wrote in message
...
All that is need to cope with lead solder (from electronics !) is an
enforced way to deal with discarded electronic waste.


Nobody wants to pay for that.


And yet a huge proportion of e-waste here is recycled, the money made in
precious elements recovered paying for it. In fact it costs a not so small
*fortune* to dump non e-waste at our local tip, and *nothing* to recycle
e-waste!

Trevor.


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few dozen
cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most cases.


Right, anyone that fussy wants the *absolute minimum* of ANY filler to be
used in the repairs!

Trevor


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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 08/05/2014 08:32, Trevor wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Some of the classic car people still use lead loading, and it *is* real
lead. Keeps it authentic and gives a better, more reliable fill than the
epoxy stuff if it's done right. We are, though, talking about a few dozen
cars a year in the UK, using a only a few ounces of lead in most cases.


Right, anyone that fussy wants the *absolute minimum* of ANY filler to be
used in the repairs!

Yup, it's mainly used to fill the seams between panels, which are
normally hand beaten from flat steel sheet.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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