"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
Give me an 'unknown' concert scenario and I'll use a classic analogue desk
any
day, simply for it's lovely simple control surface.


And your "old fart" ways of thinking. And I mean that in the most polite
way. : )

What digital consoles have you had experience with?

Thomas Bishop wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
Give me an 'unknown' concert scenario and I'll use a classic analogue desk
any
day, simply for it's lovely simple control surface.

And your "old fart" ways of thinking. And I mean that in the most polite
way. : )

What digital consoles have you had experience with?

Neve. Several models.

Graham

In article eqBxe.37009$go.7042@fed1read05 writes:

I was just listening to Dave Matthews at Philly and I swear it did the same
thing, mono then stereo - it's not random, it was between songs as if it was
deliberate.

It's possible that they switched to a different feed between songs.
Sometimes they do that.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc within
10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that being possible.

On most digital consoles, you can rearrange the faders so that you
always have the ones you need to grab most often on each layer, in the
same place, so that no matter what else is up, the front person's
vocal mic will always be on Fader 1 or whatever your choice. But you
gotta do that, and someone who doesn't have a lot of experience mixing
on a console like that might not know that it's possible, not know how
to do it, didn't have time, or just didn't think of it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:09:42 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

shannon wrote:

I'll take a guess at the usual suspects, Brit Row in London and Clairs in
Philly

I was kinda hoping it might not be - but I suspect you're right. Force majuere
etc...

I'll never be able to mention Brit Row in future without caveats, if they are
indeed the contractor,

Same goes for Clair Bros.


Graham

but brit row (or other local sound co's) likely aren't responsible for
the tv mix (unfortunately)

I'll bet all they care about is getting a good live sound, and getting
a clean recording so they can make money later. the live tv feed is
probably handled by whoever was left after every good engineer was
taken up with the rest of the show details.

Jason

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc within
10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that being possible.

On most digital consoles, you can rearrange the faders so that you
always have the ones you need to grab most often on each layer, in the
same place, so that no matter what else is up, the front person's
vocal mic will always be on Fader 1 or whatever your choice. But you
gotta do that, and someone who doesn't have a lot of experience mixing
on a console like that might not know that it's possible, not know how
to do it, didn't have time, or just didn't think of it.

On an analogue console you find the fader associated with the channel in question and *do
something with it*. No excuses !

I normally organise 'high priortiy' channels to occupy a certain limited area of the console.

No *layers*, no ********, you pull it and it works !


Graham

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article eqBxe.37009$go.7042@fed1read05 writes:

I was just listening to Dave Matthews at Philly and I swear it did the same
thing, mono then stereo - it's not random, it was between songs as if it was
deliberate.

It's possible that they switched to a different feed between songs.
Sometimes they do that.

Sure ****ed my head up !

Graham

Tim S Kemp wrote:

Joe Sensor wrote:
I have a new multimedia computer. Watching the concerts on MTV and VH1
and also watching the live streaming feeds on AOL, and the sound is
better on AOL.

Not bad, about what I would expect for such a diverse concert with
many bands and a short time to set each one up. Looking forward to
Pink Floyd, shortly.

Many people are watching it out of charitable conscience, others for the
between band "entertainment". Music lovers are waiting for the Floyd...

And it's been such a piece of wank that I forget the addy of the site I'm
suppossed to log into to add my name.

Graham

Joe Sensor wrote:
Tim S Kemp wrote:


Many people are watching it out of charitable conscience, others for
the between band "entertainment". Music lovers are waiting for the
Floyd...

Sound? Are you kidding" FLOYD ROCKED!! And it sounded awesome. I have
it cranked in the studio phones and it sounds incredible!!
History in the making.

I watched it, and got it captured on my PVR. Floyd still works even after a
short break!


--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:
shannon wrote:


I'll take a guess at the usual suspects, Brit Row in London and Clairs in
Philly


I was kinda hoping it might not be - but I suspect you're right. Force majuere
etc...

I'll never be able to mention Brit Row in future without caveats, if they are
indeed the contractor,

Same goes for Clair Bros.


Graham


Why ?
You didn't hear the mix off the sound company console unless you were at
the event.
Do you have no concept of split microphone feed events ?

Ian Gregory wrote:
Tim S Kemp wrote:
However - on the Live8 topic - am watching on Freeview, through a
prologic decoder, monitor audio speakers (my "home" rig... could go
to the "office" and listen on Tannoys) and the main BBC screwup for
me has been atrocious lipsync problems earlier on, Dido / Youssou
N'Dour was over 1 second out. Madonna is spot on.

No lip-sync error here (DTT off Crystal Palace) but I have seen some
cheap Freeview boxes loose audio/video sync for a while then snap back
into place.

Heh - Pace Puma, so not "cheap" but not reliable either... still at least I
can watch it again and again now!

--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:

I suspect a digital desk is utterly *brilliant* for a West End show
or whatever, where the same requirements are placed on it night after
night.

In fact I can hardly think of a better example of such usage.

Give me an 'unknown' concert scenario and I'll use a classic analogue
desk any day, simply for it's lovely simple control surface.

Heh - my rig (the one I own) has revolved around 2x 01V for about 3 years
now, bigger desks being out of budget for me (part timer.. for now) however
I often have to work unfamiliar venue with unfamiliar "talent" (often hard
to describe as such). Knowing the tool is the important thing - I've never
had cock up that can be atributed to the desk with or without a sound
check.

Used to do a regular (every other month) seated dinner concert type thing, 8
acts in two hours, we'd arrange it as band / solo / band / solo where we
could and sound check in the afternoon, no-one else ever got asked to do
that gig as no one else locally could provide full recall for sensible
money, and the digital setup always did the bands justice, the event (which
was semi-posh) was a feedback - free event with FX cuelists and it was
great.

I still keep my hands in on a couple of analogue rigs too, but I know what I
prefer now.


--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:

So - why wasn't it like that from the start ?

I would reckon on it being a fader jock problem - Beeb would have had
access to rehearsal tapes from yesterday and probably someone on hand from
the big names production teams for the broadcast mix. And of course the
headliners would have been much better looked after anyhow.

Who's Maccas band? Drummer was pure entertainment!


--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:

I'll never be able to mention Brit Row in future without caveats, if
they are indeed the contractor,

Would hav ebeen nice to see an Aspect rig...

--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

I have not been near a television all day so I haven't seen the staging
for any of the events, but if this is typical of these types of shows
there are probably two stages, hence three broadcast trucks. One audio
truck for each stage that outputs to a third production truck that
handles a stereo music feed and supplemental audio like applause and
commentator mics. This truck also takes care of all camera switching
and video tape record and playback. One stage sets and line checks
while the other is live.
Also there is one front of house and monitor console for each stage,
and if the act is "heavy" enough they might even have their console
present as well.
I can't imagine any rehearsal for these events.

Paul Matthews wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
That would help, but any competent sound engineer can adapt to another band
pretty fast.

Maybe that's the issue. I expect the bands have their own engineers.Maybe some
of the engineers are not great in this rapid turnaround environment? Also where
are the engineers working FOH in the park or offsite for the broadcast?

I can't speak for this concert, but what I normally see at these gigs is:

The FOH guy is in the park. The monitor guy is backstage. The broadcast
guy is in a truck nearby.

Feeds come out of the truck to the various broadcast organizations. An
FOH feed and an ambient feed might be sent to the various broadcast folks
as well, for emergency backup purposes.

The FOH is manned by the band's own mix engineer, backed up by a house
engineer. If the band does not travel with their own guy, they rely
entirely on the house engineer.

The truck is manned by a live mix engineer who usually has more of a
recording than PA approach to building a mix. If he's good, he has
listened to some of the bands' albums a week or two before and knows
what the bands are supposed to sound like. Someone from the band might
be present in the truck but not if I have anything to do with it.

Then the mix will probably be different for the broadcast...

Absolutely, there is a special mix made for broadcast. BUT, sometimes
things get screwed up and the broadcast guys need to use a backup feed
of some kind. My personal favorite was when some audience members at
a concert decided to engage in a contest to see how much LSD they could
take, and one of them jumped up on stage and started to urinate on the
mike splitter. This was back before the trucks had video feeds, and all
we could tell is that stuff was crackling and dropping out right and left
and the folks on stage were yelling a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

shannon wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
shannon wrote:


I'll take a guess at the usual suspects, Brit Row in London and
Clairs in Philly


I was kinda hoping it might not be - but I suspect you're right.
Force majuere etc...

I'll never be able to mention Brit Row in future without caveats, if
they are indeed the contractor,

Same goes for Clair Bros.


Graham


Why ?
You didn't hear the mix off the sound company console unless you were
at the event.
Do you have no concept of split microphone feed events ?

How do they work??? Isn't everything Lightwave / Ethersound / Cobranet or
PM1 Linked these days?


--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Tim S Kemp wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc
within 10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that
being possible.

Indeedy, however what happens when you mix digital (and my work is much
smaller venues than this) is you get used to how your consoles work. Leaving
a channel muted is unforgivable analogue or digital.

I find most of the inexpensive digital consoles are really, really annoying
in that regard. But I have worked on some consoles, like the Capricorn,
that made me think digital could be an advance if people just spent
some time and money on making a UI that worked.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Pooh Bear wrote:
Tim Scott wrote:


"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...

Tim S Kemp wrote:


Pooh Bear wrote:

Digital desk maybe with the dumb**** 'virtual channels' ? Either that
- proving that you should never *ever* use 'assignable' desks for
demanding live use or that the engineer responsible is utterly
clueless. If there is *one* fader you should have your finger on at
the commencement of a new set.......

Digital rocks. Engineers who are ignoring digital and are lost at the
sight
of a PM1, PM5 or a Digico are fooling themselves into history.

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc
within
10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that being possible.

Digital does rock, and is not so much the future, is is the now. Engineers
who don't realise that may as well think about retiring.
It all comes down to how good the engineer is controlling the desk, and how
good he is at programming it, and how much foresight he has to program it
well ... if there is a channel you need access to then you make sure it is
accessable from every page, and if the new band are one you are ready on
their page, etc. It all comes down to how experienced the engineer is on
that desk as to how quick he can get around it, and how good he is at
programming it appropriately for the gig. This goes for analog too, though
not so much. If everything has been advanced properly, then the desk can be
set up before the gig at the engineers home on his laptop.

After a couple of months of using a PM1D I find I can get around things
quick - I find it easier to flip the desk - so bring all the right side of
the desk (channels 25-48) to the left hand side where i am standing, i find
this easier and quicker than me moving to the other side of the desk. It
took a bit of getting used to to be able to do that, and be able to get my
head around the channels moving around, but now i find it so much easier.

Don't discount digital desks. IF programmed well they make life easier, and
do so much more than an old fashioned desk can, save space and weight etc
etc etc


I suspect a digital desk is utterly *brilliant* for a West End show or whatever,
where the same requirements are placed on it night after night.

In fact I can hardly think of a better example of such usage.

Give me an 'unknown' concert scenario and I'll use a classic analogue desk any
day, simply for it's lovely simple control surface.


Graham



These aren't unknown concert scenarios for the PA engineers, and mostly
not for the broadcast engineers either.
The Pink Floyd mix was definitely not done on the fly.
The Motley Crue one was not worth doing at all.
But the facilities are made available to all the acts, to rehearse and
store their settings.
Some are better at it than others, I suspect that you would be
completely lost, but its not really your game.
A digital console is simpler and faster to access than 48 channels of
knobs and two racks of outboard effects.
you can relabel, re group, reset all the limiters and gates and onboard
reverb with a preset change.
Which is how you recover your rehearsal mix on a different console 5
minutes after the last act finished.

Pooh Bear wrote:
shannon wrote:


On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:09:40 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:


Tim S Kemp wrote:


Pooh Bear wrote:

Digital desk maybe with the dumb**** 'virtual channels' ? Either that
- proving that you should never *ever* use 'assignable' desks for
demanding live use or that the engineer responsible is utterly
clueless. If there is *one* fader you should have your finger on at
the commencement of a new set.......

Digital rocks. Engineers who are ignoring digital and are lost at the sight
of a PM1, PM5 or a Digico are fooling themselves into history.

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc within
10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that being possible.



However - on the Live8 topic - am watching on Freeview, through a prologic
decoder, monitor audio speakers (my "home" rig... could go to the "office"
and listen on Tannoys) and the main BBC screwup for me has been atrocious
lipsync problems earlier on, Dido / Youssou N'Dour was over 1 second out.

Yet another digital screw-up.

Thankfully analogue *can't* do that ! I didn't hear *that* particular problem !


Madonna is spot on.

Yeah, The first decent act. I listened to it carefully and got it. She brought
her own engineer ! For sure ! I'd put money on it ! Not actually too surprised.
I bet she's done gigs before where they screwed up.

As the sound gradually improved during her set I realised what was going on.
Someone ( been there myself ) fighting with a crap mix to sort it out.

No you bloody haven't been there


Yes I have, but never mind it's incidental.


When and where ?

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Indeedy, however what happens when you mix digital (and my work is
much smaller venues than this) is you get used to how your consoles
work. Leaving a channel muted is unforgivable analogue or digital.

I find most of the inexpensive digital consoles are really, really
annoying in that regard. But I have worked on some consoles, like
the Capricorn, that made me think digital could be an advance if
people just spent
some time and money on making a UI that worked.

In terms of UI the digico and the yamaha units are very very good. It's a
matter of training.

At least you don't need to stand on a crate to reach the back of a PM1
surface. Even at the low end of the scale I'm working (24 channels across 2x
01V) mutes are at a glance, lead vocal and host vocal are set recall safe
for the mute, and there's a recall undo button for the unsuspecting moments
of brain failure.




--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:
shannon wrote:


On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:09:40 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:


Tim S Kemp wrote:


Pooh Bear wrote:

Digital desk maybe with the dumb**** 'virtual channels' ? Either that
- proving that you should never *ever* use 'assignable' desks for
demanding live use or that the engineer responsible is utterly
clueless. If there is *one* fader you should have your finger on at
the commencement of a new set.......

Digital rocks. Engineers who are ignoring digital and are lost at the sight
of a PM1, PM5 or a Digico are fooling themselves into history.

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc within
10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that being possible.



However - on the Live8 topic - am watching on Freeview, through a prologic
decoder, monitor audio speakers (my "home" rig... could go to the "office"
and listen on Tannoys) and the main BBC screwup for me has been atrocious
lipsync problems earlier on, Dido / Youssou N'Dour was over 1 second out.

Yet another digital screw-up.

Thankfully analogue *can't* do that ! I didn't hear *that* particular problem !


Madonna is spot on.

Yeah, The first decent act. I listened to it carefully and got it. She brought
her own engineer ! For sure ! I'd put money on it ! Not actually too surprised.
I bet she's done gigs before where they screwed up.

As the sound gradually improved during her set I realised what was going on.
Someone ( been there myself ) fighting with a crap mix to sort it out.


No you bloody haven't been there
Its absolutely clear that you have only done small time local stuff and
have never been near a large modern sound company system in a Hyde Park
type event doing a simultaneous broadcast otherwise you would be aware
that the television mix comes from a split mix to a BBC mobile and off an
ENTIRELY different console to whatever the live engineer is mixing on.
All the major acts get to rehearse with their consoles and monitors and
store all their settings before the events and the live mix would be
already dialed in from the start.


You appear to have the proverbial rod up your arse !

I have been *personally* a Dept of Environment approved contractor for events in both
Hyde Park and Trafalgar Square !

When you've cooled down maybe you'd like to make a more reasoned comment ?

Graham



Did you mix monitors of front of house or work for any of the sound
companies ?

If so how come you appear completely unaware that the television mix is
entirely separate from whatever the sound company engineers are mixing ?

It was the same at the first live aid concert too.

between band "entertainment". Music lovers are waiting for the Floyd...

Sound? Are you kidding" FLOYD ROCKED!! And it sounded awesome. I have it
cranked in the studio phones and it sounds incredible!!
History in the making.


Was Wright there? They didn't really show him on TV, if so.

In article , shannon wrote:
These aren't unknown concert scenarios for the PA engineers, and mostly
not for the broadcast engineers either.
The Pink Floyd mix was definitely not done on the fly.
The Motley Crue one was not worth doing at all.
But the facilities are made available to all the acts, to rehearse and
store their settings.
Some are better at it than others, I suspect that you would be
completely lost, but its not really your game.
A digital console is simpler and faster to access than 48 channels of
knobs and two racks of outboard effects.

We do it with a second engineer who has a ruled notebook that lists
all the parameters for the rough mix of the upcoming act. For something
big, it can take a few minutes to repatch everything, even without a lot
of outboard effects.

And there's always some change at the last minute... somebody has always
got another musician sitting in or a setlist change or something like
that. If you're lucky, he told the FOH guy. If you're really lucky,
he even told you in the truck.

The first song for _every_ group always involves a little tinkering.

you can relabel, re group, reset all the limiters and gates and onboard
reverb with a preset change.
Which is how you recover your rehearsal mix on a different console 5
minutes after the last act finished.

You can do it by hand. I do agree that the ability to do a recall is
a huge advantage of a digital console, or of a digitally-controlled
analogue console. The problem is that once that preset is recalled,
making changes on the fly can sometimes be an adventure with certain
digital consoles that will remain nameless.

But this isn't because the consoles are digital per se, just that they
were designed by feature-obsessed marketing wanks.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Tim S Kemp wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Indeedy, however what happens when you mix digital (and my work is
much smaller venues than this) is you get used to how your consoles
work. Leaving a channel muted is unforgivable analogue or digital.

I find most of the inexpensive digital consoles are really, really
annoying in that regard. But I have worked on some consoles, like
the Capricorn, that made me think digital could be an advance if
people just spent
some time and money on making a UI that worked.

In terms of UI the digico and the yamaha units are very very good. It's a
matter of training.

See, I find the 02R really irritating. I haven't used any of the newer
big Yamaha digital consoles, but the control overloading on the 02R just
drives me up the wall.

Also it is _very_ easy to screw yourself up with the signal routing
functions.

You can blame the operator for operator errors, but a simple and easily
viewed interface with one control per function makes operator error much
less likely when everybody is operating in crisis mode and not thinking
very well.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

See, I find the 02R really irritating. I haven't used any of the
newer big Yamaha digital consoles, but the control overloading on the
02R just drives me up the wall.

Also it is _very_ easy to screw yourself up with the signal routing
functions.

02R was never intended as a live desk, it's control flow is similar to that
of an inline 8 buss (even if its surface isn't). 01V / 01V96 / DM1000 /
DM200 / PM5 / PM1 are all UI optimised for live use, everything falls to
hand. Recently had another engineer using the setuo on a regular basis and
only took a few hours to get proficient.



--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:

wrote in message oups.com...

If you think the sound of Live 8 is bad, wait til they screw up the
donations!

Donations !?!

I thought that was "debt relief"... the cancellation of IOU's to the US.

Nothing like lining the pockets of corrupt dictators in Africa, never
gets to the people.

Amounts to the same thing, unfortunately. Just changes the timing
around a bit.

--Dale

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:40:25 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article , shannon wrote:
These aren't unknown concert scenarios for the PA engineers, and mostly
not for the broadcast engineers either.
The Pink Floyd mix was definitely not done on the fly.
The Motley Crue one was not worth doing at all.
But the facilities are made available to all the acts, to rehearse and
store their settings.
Some are better at it than others, I suspect that you would be
completely lost, but its not really your game.
A digital console is simpler and faster to access than 48 channels of
knobs and two racks of outboard effects.

We do it with a second engineer who has a ruled notebook that lists
all the parameters for the rough mix of the upcoming act. For something
big, it can take a few minutes to repatch everything, even without a lot
of outboard effects.

And there's always some change at the last minute... somebody has always
got another musician sitting in or a setlist change or something like
that. If you're lucky, he told the FOH guy. If you're really lucky,
he even told you in the truck.

The first song for _every_ group always involves a little tinkering.

you can relabel, re group, reset all the limiters and gates and onboard
reverb with a preset change.
Which is how you recover your rehearsal mix on a different console 5
minutes after the last act finished.

You can do it by hand. I do agree that the ability to do a recall is
a huge advantage of a digital console, or of a digitally-controlled
analogue console. The problem is that once that preset is recalled,
making changes on the fly can sometimes be an adventure with certain
digital consoles that will remain nameless.

But this isn't because the consoles are digital per se, just that they
were designed by feature-obsessed marketing wanks.
--scott


Perhaps it was the confusion of this classic analogue interface :-)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/thelive8e...#gallery-intro

Don Cooper wrote:

Was Wright there? They didn't really show him on TV, if so.


Yeah, I don't know what was up with that. Rick was there. You could sure
hear him, just couldn't see him.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
What digital consoles have you had experience with?

Neve. Several models.

Graham

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think they made live consoles. Have
you ever used one of the new Yamaha's? Or Digico, or Innovason, etc? If
not, then all your comments on digital LIVE mixers are completely
unsupported. Just because you are afraid of change does not make a new
technology inferior. I don't care if you never see the benefits of a
digital live console, but don't be surprised when you're left in the digital
dust.

Thomas Bishop wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
What digital consoles have you had experience with?

Neve. Several models.

Graham

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think they made live consoles.

Indeed they didn't but they set the pattern for control surfaces.

Have
you ever used one of the new Yamaha's? Or Digico, or Innovason, etc? If
not, then all your comments on digital LIVE mixers are completely
unsupported. Just because you are afraid of change does not make a new
technology inferior. I don't care if you never see the benefits of a
digital live console, but don't be surprised when you're left in the digital
dust.

I see digital mixers simply dying off on account of the useless user interface.
There is *no substitute* for a channel strip per input ! Something that digital
desk promoters seem to think is *clever* not to have !

If 'Live 8' had happened 15 yrs ago with analogue desks I doubt we'd even be
having this conversation.

Almost every digital desk has a 'kludgy' user interface. That's what this is
about. Unless it was simply a bunch of ****wits doing the sound ?

Graham

shannon wrote:

Did you mix monitors of front of house or work for any of the sound
companies ?

I *was* the sound company ! Period ! Get over it !

For your amusement, I mixed the live sound. OK ?

Graham

Thomas Bishop wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
What digital consoles have you had experience with?

Neve. Several models.

Graham

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think they made live consoles.

They don't. I was involved in the Neve digital project some ~ 16 yrs ago.

I was one of the very few of Neve's classic analogue engineers who was even
*allowed* to mix with the digital team !

The issue of a *live* console vs any other is moot in the digital domain. Unless
Midas come along and finally make a workable control surface for live use !

Have
you ever used one of the new Yamaha's? Or Digico, or Innovason, etc? If
not, then all your comments on digital LIVE mixers are completely
unsupported

I've seen them. They all have rather less faders than the number of 'virtual
channels'.

This is where the nonsence starts.

. Just because you are afraid of change does not make a new
technology inferior. I don't care if you never see the benefits of a
digital live console, but don't be surprised when you're left in the digital
dust.

I write DSP assembler when I have to ! Don't even think of trying that "I know
better than you " trick on me !

Graham

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:57:05 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

shannon wrote:

Did you mix monitors of front of house or work for any of the sound
companies ?

I *was* the sound company ! Period ! Get over it !

For your amusement, I mixed the live sound. OK ?

Graham

No, it sounds like you did a small gig a long time ago, and you have no
idea what goes on at large simulcast shows within at least the last twenty
years, if you think that the sound company is responsible for the
broadcast mix.

shannon wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:57:05 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

shannon wrote:

Did you mix monitors of front of house or work for any of the sound
companies ?

I *was* the sound company ! Period ! Get over it !

For your amusement, I mixed the live sound. OK ?

Graham

No, it sounds like you did a small gig a long time ago, and you have no
idea what goes on at large simulcast shows within at least the last twenty
years, if you think that the sound company is responsible for the
broadcast mix.

I never said *otherwise* !

OTOH I've since been involved with various production companies. I'm not
witless about this area you know !

If the guy in the OB truck doesn't have a decent feed he can't make it any
better. I'm appalled at the idea that whoever was indeed in the OB truck may
have had some decent feeds but had no idea how to use them !

Graham

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Tim S Kemp wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:

It's the 'virtual channels' ! NO bloody damn good in a demanding live
environment. You need to be able to access the right fader, knob, etc
within 10s ? of milliseconds. Digital control surfaces stops that
being possible.

Indeedy, however what happens when you mix digital (and my work is much
smaller venues than this) is you get used to how your consoles work. Leaving
a channel muted is unforgivable analogue or digital.

I find most of the inexpensive digital consoles are really, really annoying
in that regard. But I have worked on some consoles, like the Capricorn,
that made me think digital could be an advance if people just spent
some time and money on making a UI that worked.

Capricorn is essentially Neve of course !

Graham

Tim S Kemp wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

So - why wasn't it like that from the start ?

I would reckon on it being a fader jock problem - Beeb would have had
access to rehearsal tapes from yesterday and probably someone on hand from
the big names production teams for the broadcast mix. And of course the
headliners would have been much better looked after anyhow.

Who's Maccas band? Drummer was pure entertainment!

Ohhhh - you mean the kit sound had improved from the former sound that I
thought involved someome slapping a piece of hardboard !


Graham

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:56:31 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

shannon wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:57:05 +0100, Pooh Bear wrote:

shannon wrote:

Did you mix monitors of front of house or work for any of the sound
companies ?

I *was* the sound company ! Period ! Get over it !

For your amusement, I mixed the live sound. OK ?

Graham

No, it sounds like you did a small gig a long time ago, and you have no
idea what goes on at large simulcast shows within at least the last twenty
years, if you think that the sound company is responsible for the
broadcast mix.

I never said *otherwise* !

OTOH I've since been involved with various production companies. I'm not
witless about this area you know !

If the guy in the OB truck doesn't have a decent feed he can't make it any
better. I'm appalled at the idea that whoever was indeed in the OB truck may
have had some decent feeds but had no idea how to use them !

Graham

I'm just sticking up for the sound companies live sound crew because I
know they are not responsible.
This is the recording truck normally used by the BBC at Hyde Park
http://www.bbcradioresources.com/ob/...ification.html
As you can see from its spec, there is no reason that their stereo mix
should not be up to scratch, it carries a BSS active split and Nexus
digital snake and a 48 Channel SSL with a 32 channel Soundcraft K3 as a
submix.

shannon wrote:
SSL

drool


--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"

Pooh Bear wrote:

Ohhhh - you mean the kit sound had improved from the former sound
that I thought involved someome slapping a piece of hardboard !

I think it was meant to sound like it did, that retro overdamped weather
king head sound. But to watch, the guy was entertainment.

--
"Excuse me, would you mind not farting while I'm saving the world?"

"Would you rather silent but deadly?"