[Doug Flynn]

"TT" wrote

As a side issue this is the reason *why* Ethanol for fuel will never, ever
be a reality. It is unconscionable to grow food for fuel when people are
starving!

If you're going to play that hand, then you would have to admit that beef
production is also unconscionable, given that you could feed 10 times as
many people from the land you use to grow the grain used to feed the
animals......Doug

[Les Cargill]

Doug Flynn wrote:
"TT" wrote

As a side issue this is the reason *why* Ethanol for fuel will never, ever
be a reality. It is unconscionable to grow food for fuel when people are
starving!

If you're going to play that hand, then you would have to admit that beef
production is also unconscionable, given that you could feed 10 times as
many people from the land you use to grow the grain used to feed the
animals......Doug



That's only true if ag. production isn't growing
year by year or fast enough. It is.

Agricultural land is going out of production very rapidly,
as yields go up. There are even legal structures in place to help
people hang on to family grazing land by placing it in trust. By
agreeing to let the land go wild, they stop having to bear
a tax burden on it and maintain a nominal claim.

http://www.texaslandconservancy.org/

--
Les Cargill

[Patrick Turner]

Doug Flynn wrote:

"TT" wrote

As a side issue this is the reason *why* Ethanol for fuel will never, ever
be a reality. It is unconscionable to grow food for fuel when people are
starving!

If you're going to play that hand, then you would have to admit that beef
production is also unconscionable, given that you could feed 10 times as
many people from the land you use to grow the grain used to feed the
animals......Doug

And if vacuum tubes were not made there would be much labour and
material which could be devoted to the starving masses.

Your basic argument could be made 1,001 times over about everything.

I just read 'The Vanishing Face of Gaia', by James Lovelock.

Our species is a pretty flawed species to be sure, and we will get our
comuppance as time rolls by.

Just image Canberra being 5C average temp warmer. Our winters would be
like Sydney's, and our summers like Bourke.
The growing season for food will become a lot shorter, and we won't be
able to export any food and we will battle to feed the 50 million who
will live in Oz in 100 years.
Then imagine the sea levels swamping all the coastal cities with water
100 metres above where it is now, as it has been many times before.
Then we will have to rebuild everything, thus causing more CO2.

Don't worry, a good number will survive the future.

Its nature, it goes down the gurgler sometimes, the rises up again. 65
million years ago, a big rock hit earth and ****ed up life real big time
for many thousands of years. That rock event was a big one but there
have been a fair few others before it over the last few hundred million
years. But life still went on, and we eventually evolved from the tiny
mammal critters back then.
But we then became the dominant species, and each one of use needs 2kW
of power to live, 24/7, which is a 20 fold increase on what it was per
head when there was only a billion of us. So we have become like a big
rock, or a non stop volcano.

The stupid ethanol issue is one of many that is merely tinkering around
the edges, like trying to tune the piano before continuing with terrible
music as the Titanic very slowly sinks. If they played better music, ie,
didn't do ethanol, then maybe we wouldn't mind when we sink with the
ship. But the ethanol is only one problem of 1,001 others, many much
larger....
They say when sea levels rise to a maximum when all the land ice has
melted then the land submerged is equal to the area of Africa.
This implies africans will drown, not americans, but that is not quite
right. There will be some mass migrations and wars as the waters and the
temperature rises. I won't be around.

So if yer don't worry, and let the world go to hell as it wants to, then
you can be happy.

Patrick Turner.

[Doug Flynn]

"Patrick Turner" wrote

Just image Canberra being 5C average temp warmer. Our winters would be
like Sydney's, and our summers like Bourke.
The growing season for food will become a lot shorter, and we won't be
able to export any food and we will battle to feed the 50 million who
will live in Oz in 100 years.
Then imagine the sea levels swamping all the coastal cities with water
100 metres above where it is now, as it has been many times before.
Then we will have to rebuild everything, thus causing more CO2.

Don't worry, a good number will survive the future.

Its nature, it goes down the gurgler sometimes, the rises up again. 65
million years ago, a big rock hit earth and ****ed up life real big time
for many thousands of years. That rock event was a big one but there
have been a fair few others before it over the last few hundred million
years. But life still went on, and we eventually evolved from the tiny
mammal critters back then.
But we then became the dominant species, and each one of use needs 2kW
of power to live, 24/7, which is a 20 fold increase on what it was per
head when there was only a billion of us. So we have become like a big
rock, or a non stop volcano.

The stupid ethanol issue is one of many that is merely tinkering around
the edges, like trying to tune the piano before continuing with terrible
music as the Titanic very slowly sinks. If they played better music, ie,
didn't do ethanol, then maybe we wouldn't mind when we sink with the
ship. But the ethanol is only one problem of 1,001 others, many much
larger....
They say when sea levels rise to a maximum when all the land ice has
melted then the land submerged is equal to the area of Africa.
This implies africans will drown, not americans, but that is not quite
right. There will be some mass migrations and wars as the waters and the
temperature rises. I won't be around.

So if yer don't worry, and let the world go to hell as it wants to, then
you can be happy.

Look on the bright side - we'll all be dead in 100 years....Doug :-)

[Patrick Turner]

Doug Flynn wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote

Just image Canberra being 5C average temp warmer. Our winters would be
like Sydney's, and our summers like Bourke.
The growing season for food will become a lot shorter, and we won't be
able to export any food and we will battle to feed the 50 million who
will live in Oz in 100 years.
Then imagine the sea levels swamping all the coastal cities with water
100 metres above where it is now, as it has been many times before.
Then we will have to rebuild everything, thus causing more CO2.

Don't worry, a good number will survive the future.

Its nature, it goes down the gurgler sometimes, the rises up again. 65
million years ago, a big rock hit earth and ****ed up life real big time
for many thousands of years. That rock event was a big one but there
have been a fair few others before it over the last few hundred million
years. But life still went on, and we eventually evolved from the tiny
mammal critters back then.
But we then became the dominant species, and each one of use needs 2kW
of power to live, 24/7, which is a 20 fold increase on what it was per
head when there was only a billion of us. So we have become like a big
rock, or a non stop volcano.

The stupid ethanol issue is one of many that is merely tinkering around
the edges, like trying to tune the piano before continuing with terrible
music as the Titanic very slowly sinks. If they played better music, ie,
didn't do ethanol, then maybe we wouldn't mind when we sink with the
ship. But the ethanol is only one problem of 1,001 others, many much
larger....
They say when sea levels rise to a maximum when all the land ice has
melted then the land submerged is equal to the area of Africa.
This implies africans will drown, not americans, but that is not quite
right. There will be some mass migrations and wars as the waters and the
temperature rises. I won't be around.

So if yer don't worry, and let the world go to hell as it wants to, then
you can be happy.

Look on the bright side - we'll all be dead in 100 years....Doug :-)

Nature indeed looks on the bright side, and happily will take revenge
against some irritating pest like Homo Sapiens.

I'm sure many other ppl will be glad about your expiry and mine sooner
rather than later.

Any person who is really interested in propagating his or her genes
secretly would not mind much if 90% of the other people in the world all
died next week. Its one reason wars are tolerated, and engaged in with
gusto. Watched Foyle's War on ABC 1 recently?
Young folks spend their entire youth propogating their genes. They wish
for their children's welfare and comfort. ( **** everyone else ).

But anyway, I'l be gone much sooner than 100 years.

But I just cannot see much of a bright future for all mankind and the
women who urge them on about business as usual In 1,000 years things
will be extraordinarily different, and beyound our easy comprehension at
current rates of scientific "progress", were we able to be transported
to the future.
Quite a few will have the savvy to make a good profit from the misery of
the future. Someone will be happy.

I'm hoping we begin to decode the intelligent data signals probably
passing by Earth from many much more advanced civilisations of Space.
At present we have not much of a clue about what intelligent signals
from space would look like. The may be buried deep in noise, and of some
unusual type of radiation. Meanwhile, TV shows of Father Knows Best from
the 1960s are moving away from us and are about 40 light years away.
There isn't much other civilisations could learn from us, except that we
are a pretty dopey ****in lot.

But any info from more advanced beings than us won't necessarily make us
deal with problems here any better than we have been.
We still have to eat and ****, and ****wits and ****witettes still chase
idiotic castles in the air which cost us the natural environment.

And once we find several planets suitable for human habitation, then
many won't feel guilty about trashing this planet entirely, because the
future kiddies can make a mess after moving to a new planet. So we won't
just be a pox here, we'll become a Galactic Pox, and maybe become a
Universal Pox.

Patrick Turner.

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


In 1,000 years things
will be extraordinarily different, and beyound our easy
comprehension at
current rates of scientific "progress", were we able to be
transported
to the future.

Patrick Turner.

I bet someone like you is still making Toob gear ;-) Or
perhaps as technology moves on Toobed output stages for
domestic robots :-))

Cheers TT

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Patrick Turner wrote:

And once we find several planets suitable for human habitation, then
many won't feel guilty about trashing this planet entirely, because
the future kiddies can make a mess after moving to a new planet. So
we won't just be a pox here, we'll become a Galactic Pox, and maybe
become a Universal Pox.

Check the specs for this planet: "stone planet in the water zone with
stabilizing moon and a double iron core due to previous impact of similar
sized body at exactly the right angle to put its litosphere up there and the
iron core below our feet".

This here precious planet we live on is rare beyond the point of
improbability.

Make no mistake btw: the pacific ocean IS the impact crater and the
continent migration and eartquakes are caused by hour planet not yet having
settled after that impact.

Patrick Turner.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[TT]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
Patrick Turner wrote:

And once we find several planets suitable for human
habitation, then
many won't feel guilty about trashing this planet
entirely, because
the future kiddies can make a mess after moving to a new
planet. So
we won't just be a pox here, we'll become a Galactic Pox,
and maybe
become a Universal Pox.

Check the specs for this planet: "stone planet in the
water zone with stabilizing moon and a double iron core
due to previous impact of similar sized body at exactly
the right angle to put its litosphere up there and the
iron core below our feet".

This here precious planet we live on is rare beyond the
point of improbability.

Make no mistake btw: the pacific ocean IS the impact
crater and the continent migration and eartquakes are
caused by hour planet not yet having settled after that
impact.

Patrick Turner.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

You left out the bit about tilting the planet on its axis
23.5deg. to give us the seasons as well ;-)

Cheers TT

[Ben Bradley[_2_]]

in a crosspost to
rec.audio.pro,rec.arts.movies.production.sound,aus .hi-fi and
rec.audio.tubes, On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:11:25 GMT, "Doug Flynn"
wrote:

"TT" wrote

As a side issue this is the reason *why* Ethanol for fuel will never, ever
be a reality. It is unconscionable to grow food for fuel when people are
starving!

If you're going to play that hand, then you would have to admit that beef
production is also unconscionable, given that you could feed 10 times as
many people from the land you use to grow the grain used to feed the
animals......Doug

Furthermore, the problem for many or most starving people across
the world is NOT lack of food production. There's plenty of food to go
around. The UN Food Program feeds (as I recall a few years ago) 90
million people, but one thing the UN does NOT do is go to war to feed
people. There are dictators who seize incoming food shipments and only
feed those citizens who join the dictator's army. The solution to
feeding these people appears to involve military action.

[Patrick Turner]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

And once we find several planets suitable for human habitation, then
many won't feel guilty about trashing this planet entirely, because
the future kiddies can make a mess after moving to a new planet. So
we won't just be a pox here, we'll become a Galactic Pox, and maybe
become a Universal Pox.

Check the specs for this planet: "stone planet in the water zone with
stabilizing moon and a double iron core due to previous impact of similar
sized body at exactly the right angle to put its litosphere up there and the
iron core below our feet".

This here precious planet we live on is rare beyond the point of
improbability.

********.

The probablility that our kind of planet exists elsewhere is extremly
likely.

Once you say it is improbable for a planet like ours to exist elsewhere,
and in a form which would be easy for us to colonise, ie, no hostile
natives, nice clean air like ours, clean water, and mild temperature
etc, etc, then you must define the probablity to numbers, say maybe 1
planet in 10 million samples. But 10 million is a tiny astronomical
number and there are billions of galaxies each with billions of stars
each with a their own little/big solar system. So there are probably
millions of habitable planets available for us to move to to **** up
like we are ****ing up this place. Some will have already been
thouroughly well rooted by their own experiments with evolved
intelligence, while some may have survived the experiment and would be
so advanced beyond us that they will see our space ships as a bunch of
angry little mozzies, and one little spray with death rays and our
little brave explorers will be fried to a vapour before they realise
anything is wrong.

We have hardly begun to scratch the surface of what lies Out There.

Then there are all the other endless universes beyond the tiny little
one we find ourselves in. If time has been going on before the Big Bang,
then it stretches back to the beginning of time, which is way beyound
our comprehension, and the end of time stretches the other way beyond
our comprehension. Since the feeble human brain is a very tiny finite
bunch of matter, it cannot contain the information needed to describe
the universe we are within, because the knowledge is infinite, let alone
a simple explanation of what lies outside our known universe. All this
is the sobering fact about our feebleness. We like to think we are a
smart species, but in cosmic terms we are little more developed than a
cat. And I've known some cats which were nicer creatures than many
humans.


Make no mistake btw: the pacific ocean IS the impact crater and the
continent migration and eartquakes are caused by hour planet not yet having
settled after that impact.

Hmm, I think you have a limited scientific knowledge. Just because you
see that the Pacific Ocean is a big hole full of water, it does not mean
it is a huge crater. The world's continents are thin layers of solid
rock floating on top of a hot molten core whose heat is generated by
radioactive decay, no? There are convention currents in the molten core
which move slowly, and thus carry the continents around like leaves upon
a pond. Where these continents are being brought together or pulled
apart, or where they slide past each other causes the stresses and
earthquakes we experience.

If you could take a holiday for 10 million years on Escapia, that planet
with blue seas and plenty of nice mermaids, and then return, you'd find
that Oz had moved north some 500km north at the current rate it is now
moving. The world map would be rather different. In 100 million years
the travel would be 5,000km, and maybe you'd find the Pacific ocean had
become a puddle. But maybe also a bit hard to predict. There could also
be asteroids hits during this and followed by mass extinctions or life
lasting hundreds or thousands of years, but some life has survived each
mass extinction event. Its all happened before, and the fossil record
shows many such mass extinctions followed by renewals of evolution
within the changed environment. Of course thie doesn't suit those who
believe the Earth was created about 6,000 years ago by an old guy with
white beard in the sky. But something, call it a God if you want to must
have designed the laws of physics and let them evolve, so God is Great,
sure enough, whatever God is.

As evolution continues, the cream tends to float to the top.
But all manner of scum also floats to the top.

We don't need or want an asteriod hit right now, but it looks inevitable
that one will occur sometime in the future.
Meanwhile, in the blink of an eye in cosmic time Homo Sapiens has become
equivalent to a continuous volcanic eruption spewing gigatons of crap
into the air and oceans where it rests very uneasily.

Maybe you should read the books of James Lovelock to know more, then
read books by those who oppose the views of Lovelock, so you can make
your mind up. But if you read nothing, then you'll learn nothing, and
remain ignorant and supersticious. And of course what does it matter or
mean if you knew the truth about Nature? You'll still have to pay a
mortgage and pay the bills and suffer the pains of life.

So it pays not to be an arsole for the rest of us to deal with while you
are here for your brief little life, OK!

If you divide all the Earth's attributes by about 6.5 billion, then you
can understand how big your portion of the world is in terms of square
metres of land and tonnes or air.

You can know how much arrable land and forest and sea and mountains and
ice has your name on it. How many gum trees and kangaroos you own.
If you do this set of calculations over several evenings, you'll find
out that your piece of the Farm isn't entirely huge, and that your
actions in being human upon your patch of Dear Earth will have an
effect. So if you dig huge holes to mine something, drill oil wells,
then light fires all the time, and farm wastefully, the bit of sea you
have will become muddy, and the skies will be smoky, and the land will
degrade and your own bit of forest will have much reduced biodiveresity,
and you'll upset your neighbours and your animals on your own Patch.

And in 50 years when the Earth's population might become 12 billion,
everyone's slice of the farm will become half what it is now, and
everyone wants to live like a king on their little block so the pressure
on resources on each allottment will also double, so in 50 years the
pressure will be 4 times what it is now, and having to deal with the
effects of making a mess for the last 250 years of industrial
"progress".

With luck, enough of the world's population will become educated enough
to know what's likely then become well depressed about the future so
that they become sexually dysfunctional, stop ****ing, then not have
children. This has already happened in many countries like Japan and
Italy etc, and they have many ageing old people and a lot of
masturbating youngsters who won't leave home until they are 40 with a
birthrate below what is a population replacement rate. But such
dysfunctionality should be rewarded by governments to ease the burdens
of living of future generations.
The Chinese went active about it and said one child per couple is
enough, and they have tried to enforce it Until we can have a positive
instead of negative effect on Nature, the Chinese approach is laudable,
IMHO. But many wanna get rich like us..... The Indians also want a slice
of Apple Rich Pie as well, and the queue of have nots for the goods and
services available at a supermucket called Consumerania now stretches
thousands of kilometres down Earth's dusty roads.....

So for each person who is appalled at what is happening to Earth, there
are 10 who are hell bent on ruining it.


Patrick Turner.



Patrick Turner.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

, while some may have survived the experiment and would be
so advanced beyond us that they will see our space ships
as a bunch of
angry little mozzies, and one little spray with death rays
and our
little brave explorers will be fried to a vapour before
they realise
anything is wrong.

And I bet on their home World there will be some old bloke
out in his back shed still churning out toob gear ;-)

Cheers TT :-))