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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
Tom Petty's old band has come up with a way to get around the loudness
wars: The vinyl album comes with a CD—mastered the same way the LP was, with higher dynamic range. (Yes, it's pathetic that they won't release a CD with even the dynamic range of an LP, but that seems to be the way of the world these days.) More details he http://snipurl.com/2ns83 bob |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
bob wrote:
Tom Petty's old band has come up with a way to get around the loudness wars: The vinyl album comes with a CD?mastered the same way the LP was, with higher dynamic range. (Yes, it's pathetic that they won't release a CD with even the dynamic range of an LP, but that seems to be the way of the world these days.) More details he http://snipurl.com/2ns83 To be clear, this means that in the name of better sound, they have gone back to a practice discredited in the 80s -- sourcing CDs from LP production masters. That practice was what led to 'remastering' in the first place. Just shows how bad things have gotten in the world of CD mastering. They *could* have just made CD from the original full-range masters, and not applied digital compression. But nooooooo..they had use the 'vinyl' gimmick. -- -S Poe's Law: Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humorous intent, it is impossible to create a parody of a religious Fundamentalist that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jun 30, 8:30*pm, Steven Sullivan wrote:
They *could* have just made CD from the original full-range masters, and not applied digital compression. But nooooooo..they had use the 'vinyl' gimmick. That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. Instead, we chase after the next thing—hi-rez digital—or go on a nostalgia trip for the last thing—vinyl. The recordings may be better, but it's because of the mastering, not the medium. A more rational market would give us a choice between low-dynamic range MP3s and high-dynamic range CDs or lossless files. bob |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
nabob wrote:
That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. This is silly. There are no such "high priests of high end audio." And even if such figures existed, the high end lacks the clout to influence the entire CD market. In fact, there is a healthy niche for well-recorded, well-mastered CDs. It's the high end market that supports these products. A more rational market would give us a choice between low-dynamic range MP3s and high-dynamic range CDs or lossless files. You already have that choice. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 2, 7:14*pm, "C. Leeds" wrote:
nabob wrote: That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. This is silly. There are no such "high priests of high end audio." Oh, come on. You've never heard it said that CD isn't sufficient? Who was promoting SACD and DVD-A? Who's been promoting vinyl as superior to CD? CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium (which, it should be noted, costs more to produce but isn't any better). So the companies that cater to these audiophile oblige, by giving them SACD, or vinyl, instead of just making a CD that sounds as good. This Mudcrutch album is a perfect example. You cannot buy a decent CD of it—unless you're willing to accept an oversized piece of black plastic along with it. Why? And even if such figures existed, the high end lacks the clout to influence the entire CD market. Who's talking about the entire market? I'm talking about the niche audiophile market. If audiophiles were decently informed about audio, they would be quite capable of demanding—and getting—high-quality CDs. In fact, there is a healthy niche for well-recorded, well-mastered CDs. It's the high end market that supports these products. * A more rational market would give us a choice between low-dynamic range MP3s and high-dynamic range CDs or lossless files. You already have that choice. On what planet? Pick up a catalog from Music Direct or Acoustic Sounds. What percentage of their product line is CD? SACD? Vinyl? The audiophile market is predominantly alternative media. The idea that in order to get a recording with decent dynamic range I have to buy the vinyl version is just nuts. But there aren't enough audiophiles demanding CDs with decent dynamic range, so they don't get made. bob |
#6
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
In article , bob
wrote: This Mudcrutch album is a perfect example. You cannot buy a decent CD of it—unless you're willing to accept an oversized piece of black plastic along with it. Why? Make that two oversized pieces of black plastic: it's a double lp set. Stephen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:08:00 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ): On Jul 2, 7:14*pm, "C. Leeds" wrote: nabob wrote: That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. This is silly. There are no such "high priests of high end audio." Oh, come on. You've never heard it said that CD isn't sufficient? Who was promoting SACD and DVD-A? Who's been promoting vinyl as superior to CD? CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium (which, it should be noted, costs more to produce but isn't any better). So the companies that cater to these audiophile oblige, by giving them SACD, or vinyl, instead of just making a CD that sounds as good. This Mudcrutch album is a perfect example. You cannot buy a decent CD of it—unless you're willing to accept an oversized piece of black plastic along with it. Why? And even if such figures existed, the high end lacks the clout to influence the entire CD market. Who's talking about the entire market? I'm talking about the niche audiophile market. If audiophiles were decently informed about audio, they would be quite capable of demanding—and getting—high-quality CDs. Mythology and religion is hard to fight. In many audiophile's minds, the equivalent of "cartoon physics" is practiced as if real. All amps sound different (used to be somewhat true in the early transistor era, not so true any more), Expensive, outboard D/A converters sound better than the ones in the player, a $4000/meter pair of interconnects from Nordost sounds better than a $2 pair of Radio Shack molded interconnects*, Mytlewood blocks placed on top of components make them sound better, garden-hosed sized speaker cables sound best if lifted off the carpet by ceramic cable "elevators" and George Tice's "treated" clock makes the stereo system sound better. People who believe this stuff merely assume that the more bits and the higher the sample-rate the better. It makes sense on a " more-is-better" basis, It's just that in digital quantization, more than sufficient doesn't seem to buy one much. *I worked, for my first three years out of engineering school, in the Lockheed Cable Lab researching the properties of cable and insulation for aerospace applications. I became quite expert at the electronic theory associated with conductors of electricity at all frequencies - from DC up into microwave wave-guide territory. assuming no radiated hum, there is nothing that a pair of interconnects, regardless of their cost, can do with a signal in the audio range that cannot be done equally well by a couple of pieces of coat-hanger wire. Buy well made interconnects with tight-fitting barrels which are wired quasi-balanced (for total signal shielding from outside interference sources) and forget about cable "sound". In fact, there is a healthy niche for well-recorded, well-mastered CDs. It's the high end market that supports these products. * A more rational market would give us a choice between low-dynamic range MP3s and high-dynamic range CDs or lossless files. You already have that choice. On what planet? Pick up a catalog from Music Direct or Acoustic Sounds. What percentage of their product line is CD? SACD? Vinyl? The audiophile market is predominantly alternative media. The idea that in order to get a recording with decent dynamic range I have to buy the vinyl version is just nuts. But there aren't enough audiophiles demanding CDs with decent dynamic range, so they don't get made. I think Mr. Leeds meant generally, not specifically. Most pop titles are available as MP3s from Apple or other music services and the same performances are available on CD and many are available as lossless and even high-rez downloads from some sites. bob |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
I have some CDs and SACDs that have too much dynamic range. An example
is the BIS Beethoven symphony series with Vanska. The soft sections are so soft that if the volume is raised to hear them, the loud sections are overpowering. I live in the sticks where there is no ambient noise that would "cover" the soft sections. These would be impossible to listen to in a car. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:03:10 -0700, MIKE--- wrote
(in article ): I have some CDs and SACDs that have too much dynamic range. An example is the BIS Beethoven symphony series with Vanska. The soft sections are so soft that if the volume is raised to hear them, the loud sections are overpowering. I live in the sticks where there is no ambient noise that would "cover" the soft sections. These would be impossible to listen to in a car. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I've often thought that all car radios should incorporate a variable compressor that could be invoked by the listener for any source with a knob on it which would be able to increase the amount of compression from none to full. While I wouldn't want this on my home stereo, in a car, it's practically de riguer. OTOH, I've never heard of any car stereo makes ever including one. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
nabob wrote:
That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. I answered: This is silly. There are no such "high priests of high end audio." now nabob says: CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium.... But it doesn't matter what high-enders demand. The CD market caters to the mass market, not the high-end. Who's talking about the entire market? I'm talking about the niche audiophile market. If audiophiles were decently informed about audio, they would be quite capable of demanding—and getting—high-quality CDs. There are many high quality CDs on the market. There's lots of junk, too. It's always been that way with recorded music. |
#11
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
---MIKE--- wrote:
...I live in the sticks where there is no ambient noise that would "cover" the soft sections. There is ambient noise everywhere. |
#12
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 6, 10:25*am, Sonnova wrote:
I've often thought that all car radios should incorporate a variable compressor that could be invoked by the listener for any source with a knob on it which would be able to increase the amount of compression from none to full. While I wouldn't want this on my home stereo, in a car, it's practically de riguer. OTOH, I've never heard of any car stereo makes ever including one. The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob |
#13
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: Expensive, outboard D/A converters sound better than the ones in the player, sorry, different a/d and d/a conveters do have differing performance and some are significantly better than others. that's not to say that the audiophools still don't get suckered by overpriced crap but in the professional arena, there are significant differences between conversion devices even within a given manufacturers product line. at the same time i am fascinated and humored by the folks who buy the esoteric power cable to go in their IEC connection on the device end and the wall plug on the other. a well placed ferrite bead or two would do better but they don't know that. |
#14
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 6, 10:30*am, "C. Leeds" wrote:
nabob wrote: CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium.... But it doesn't matter what high-enders demand. The CD market caters to the mass market, not the high-end. I'm not talking about the mass market; I'm talking about the audiophile recording market. See my reference to Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct. Those catalogs are full of SACDs and 180g vinyl, because audiophiles have been spoon-fed the idea that it's the medium that makes a good recording, and those are the media that Stereophile and The Absolute Sound tell them sound best. Now imagine an alternate world where Sphile and TAS had decided to put honesty above profit (yeah, I know), and told audiophiles that new gear wasn't going to solve the problems of the conventional CD. That instead of putting $3000 into a new disk player, they should put $3000 into the best-mastered CDs they could find, from labels dedicated to quality recordings. What would the Music Direct catalog look like today? bob |
#15
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 07:30:21 -0700, C. Leeds wrote
(in article ): nabob wrote: That's because the high priests of the high end have insisted for a couple of decades now that CD just wasn't sufficient. So there isn't even much of a niche market for a well-mastered CD. I answered: This is silly. There are no such "high priests of high end audio." now nabob says: CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium.... But it doesn't matter what high-enders demand. The CD market caters to the mass market, not the high-end. Who's talking about the entire market? I'm talking about the niche audiophile market. If audiophiles were decently informed about audio, they would be quite capable of demanding—and getting—high-quality CDs. There are many high quality CDs on the market. There's lots of junk, too. It's always been that way with recorded music. You are quite correct, it's always been that way. I have about 2000 LPs - mostly classical music. Out of those, perhaps 10% are well recorded, and only 2-3% are really superb. By superb, I mean close to as good as vinyl gets. One place where the CD has it all over vinyl is in the area of manufacturing defects. While one rarely encounters CDs that are defective "out-of-the-box", in the vinyl era, defective discs were quite common and with a myriad of sins as well. LPs suffered under-fill (where not enough raw vinyl went into the press to fill all the grooves properly) to off-center holes, to records that were packaged too quickly after pressing and so were permanently warped. Then there were records where the something went wrong in the vinyl mix or they used too much recycled vinyl in the mix and the records were noisy. Many times the presses weren't at the correct temperature making the vinyl "mealy" and giving the finished disc a gray appearance - these were always noisy. But also, many records were simply cut indifferently or cut from poor masters. In the 1960's and 1970's, EMI was mastering and pressing their classical titles for the American market here in the States. SInce EMI had purchased Capitol Records, they used that companies facilities to produce their impressive classical library. EMI called their US classical label, "Angel" because their domestic (British) trademark ("Little Nipper" looking into the gramophone horn) belonged to and was being used by another company (RCA Victor) in this country. I soon learned to eschew the Angel pressed versions of EMI titles and go directly for the British pressings. Luckily, one could buy the british pressing or most releases from an importer who placed a gold sticker over the EMI dog-and-horn logo which read "Odeon". The difference between the British product and the American product was almost unbelievable! The US Angel pressing sounded terrible - almost always, while the British pressings were damned nigh perfect. I never got a defective one nor did I ever get one which sounded other than first-rate. I may not have agreed with the microphone technique used (these were the days of extreme multi-miking, after all) but I couldn't fault the mastering or pressing quality. When I complained to Capitol, they insisted that the Angel releases should sound identical to the British product, but a chance encounter with Doug Sax many years later had him telling a different story. He said that EMI's cutting masters sounded identical to the ones that EMI used, but that Capitol management insisted that the tapes be re-eq'ed for "American tastes." Sax also said that Capitol had extreme quality control issues with their pressing plants that they were never able to solve. Anyway, as a result, my collection is filled with British and European EMI pressings instead of the awful Angels. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
Sonnova wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:03:10 -0700, MIKE--- wrote (in article ): I have some CDs and SACDs that have too much dynamic range. An example is the BIS Beethoven symphony series with Vanska. The soft sections are so soft that if the volume is raised to hear them, the loud sections are overpowering. I live in the sticks where there is no ambient noise that would "cover" the soft sections. These would be impossible to listen to in a car. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I've often thought that all car radios should incorporate a variable compressor that could be invoked by the listener for any source with a knob on it which would be able to increase the amount of compression from none to full. While I wouldn't want this on my home stereo, in a car, it's practically de riguer. OTOH, I've never heard of any car stereo makes ever including one. Today's cars have automatic volume controls which raise/reduce the volume according how much road noise is present. It's a step in the right direction. As electronic circuitry gets cheaper and cheaper, I'm sure the car audio manufacturers will start to incorporate compression schemes within their systems. But then, how many people would even appreciate that feature? Just like high end audio, it's a niche/small market that won't get much attention from the marketers. Bose car audio systems have sophisticated volume circuits since each speaker of Bose car audio system has its own amplifier and EQ. They may be the 1st to implement compression technology. They sure do know how to market whatever they bring out Though I am not much of a fan of Bose home audio, I can not sing the praises enough for Bose car audio. Their compromise engineering and the less than ideal car audio environment are a match made in heaven. CD |
#17
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:46:22 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:03:10 -0700, MIKE--- wrote (in article ): I have some CDs and SACDs that have too much dynamic range. An example is the BIS Beethoven symphony series with Vanska. The soft sections are so soft that if the volume is raised to hear them, the loud sections are overpowering. I live in the sticks where there is no ambient noise that would "cover" the soft sections. These would be impossible to listen to in a car. ---MIKE--- In the White Mountains of New Hampshire (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') I've often thought that all car radios should incorporate a variable compressor that could be invoked by the listener for any source with a knob on it which would be able to increase the amount of compression from none to full. While I wouldn't want this on my home stereo, in a car, it's practically de riguer. OTOH, I've never heard of any car stereo makes ever including one. Today's cars have automatic volume controls which raise/reduce the volume according how much road noise is present. It's a step in the right direction. As electronic circuitry gets cheaper and cheaper, I'm sure the car audio manufacturers will start to incorporate compression schemes within their systems. But then, how many people would even appreciate that feature? Just like high end audio, it's a niche/small market that won't get much attention from the marketers. Well, yes, that's of course, true. Most people listen to "pop" music (rock, rap, hip-hop, etc.) most of which, has no dynamic range and is loud all the time. Those who get their fix of pop via radio, don't need compressors as the radio stations provide more than enough in their bids to be the loudest stations on the dial to capture the "dial spinner" audience. The only people who have a use for compressors are those who listen to classical and jazz and perhaps acoustic vocal music such as blues and folk and who listen via their own sources, CD MP3, etc. Bose car audio systems have sophisticated volume circuits since each speaker of Bose car audio system has its own amplifier and EQ. They may be the 1st to implement compression technology. They sure do know how to market whatever they bring out Bose is definitely a textbook case of marketing over substance coupled with the cahones to charge outrageous prices for their goods and get away with it. Though I am not much of a fan of Bose home audio, I can not sing the praises enough for Bose car audio. Their compromise engineering and the less than ideal car audio environment are a match made in heaven. I can only comment on the Bose car systems that come in the Italian Maserati or Alfa Romeos that I get to borrow from the factories when I'm in Italy. I've listened to them, of course, and find that they work fine, but I've never heard anything from them to write home about. Nor have I been any more impressed with the Bose stereos that come standard in Ferraris. One would think that cars this pricy would would come with stereos from the likes of at least McIntosh, if not Mark Levinson. BTW, Ferrari want's over US$3,000 for their Bose audio system when its no better (or different) than the Bose system that comes standard in a Fiat Punto AFAICS. But I guess if you can afford a Ferrari, who cares about a piddling three-grand for a mediocre car stereo. |
#18
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:40:46 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ): On Jul 6, 10:30*am, "C. Leeds" wrote: nabob wrote: CD, done right, is as good as it gets. But the high-enders won't accept that, so instead of demanding "CD done right," they insist on some other medium.... But it doesn't matter what high-enders demand. The CD market caters to the mass market, not the high-end. I'm not talking about the mass market; I'm talking about the audiophile recording market. See my reference to Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct. Those catalogs are full of SACDs and 180g vinyl, because audiophiles have been spoon-fed the idea that it's the medium that makes a good recording, and those are the media that Stereophile and The Absolute Sound tell them sound best. Now imagine an alternate world where Sphile and TAS had decided to put honesty above profit (yeah, I know), and told audiophiles that new gear wasn't going to solve the problems of the conventional CD. That instead of putting $3000 into a new disk player, they should put $3000 into the best-mastered CDs they could find, from labels dedicated to quality recordings. What would the Music Direct catalog look like today? bob I dunno, but I'll tell you that the best deal in music today is to go to the Music Direct catalogue and purchase the ENTIRE RCA Red Seal collection found there. It will cost you about $600 or a bit more, and the discs are hybrid - SACD/Red Book CD, but BMG/Sony have done a magnificent job re-mastering these 60 or so discs and whether you prefer to listen via the SACD layer or the CD layer (they're compatible with any CD player), every one's a winner and among the best recordings ever made during the "Golden Age" of stereo recording. |
#19
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:47 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ): On Jul 6, 10:25*am, Sonnova wrote: I've often thought that all car radios should incorporate a variable compressor that could be invoked by the listener for any source with a knob on it which would be able to increase the amount of compression from none to full. While I wouldn't want this on my home stereo, in a car, it's practically de riguer. OTOH, I've never heard of any car stereo makes ever including one. The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob Interesting. It's about time. OTOH, most consumer compressors offered over the years have the release time-constants wrong causing the compressor to "pump" audibly - very annoying. This can be fixed by using a larger capacitor, (or a higher value resistor) in the release circuit (of an analog compressor), but I'm reasonably sure that today's compressors (like the one in your Ford radio) are digital and DSP based, so I don't know what you could do there. I'd be interested to hear how well it works. Let us know, will you? |
#20
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 7, 11:46*am, Codifus wrote:
Today's cars have automatic volume controls which raise/reduce the volume according how much road noise is present. Ah, yes, this sounds like what my car actually has--it gets louder with increased speed (not road noise itself). As I said, I've never tried it, and I can't imagine it making much difference. I don't want the fffs louder, just the ppps. bob |
#21
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
bob wrote:
...Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct. Those catalogs are full of SACDs and 180g vinyl, because audiophiles have been spoon-fed the idea that it's the medium that makes a good recording, and those are the media that Stereophile and The Absolute Sound tell them sound best. Music Direct presumably sells what its customers want. It makes sense that they sell SACD and LP, because those formats are difficult to find at many mass merchants. Its customers aren't "spoon-fed" - they simply buy what they prefer. If you don't care for Music Direct's selection, why not shop somewhere else? Or, do you expect the entire world to conform to your sensibilities? Now imagine an alternate world where Sphile and TAS had decided to put honesty above profit (yeah, I know), If you don't care for these magazines, don't read them. Or, do you expect the entire world to conform to your sensibilities? ....What would the Music Direct catalog look like today? Who cares? There are many places to buy recordings. |
#22
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 7, 10:22*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:47 -0700, bob wrote The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob Interesting. It's about time. OTOH, most consumer compressors offered over the years have the release time-constants wrong causing the compressor to "pump" audibly - very annoying. This can be fixed by using a larger capacitor, (or a higher value resistor) in the release circuit (of an analog compressor), but I'm reasonably sure that today's compressors (like the one in your Ford radio) are digital and DSP based, so I don't know what you could do there. I'd be interested to hear how well it works. Let us know, will you? Well, I finally decided to actually try out my car's CD player (I mostly do radio in the car), and it has two interesting features: 1) A control that increases the volume as car speed increases, to compensate for road noise and wind. This is adjustable on a 0-7 scale, with 0 being "off." The manual recommends not going above 3, however. I haven't experimented with this yet. 2) A "compression" feature that reduces the dynamic range, to allow soft passages to be heard above the background noise. This is a simple on-off toggle. I tried it out with a symphonic CD that was unlistenable in my old car. (Did you know there's actually a second movement to Beethoven's Fifth? You wouldn't have heard it in my Civic!) And, indeed, it works pretty much as claimed--almost all of the soft passages are audible, without blasting the fff passages unreasonably. The crescendoes lose a fair bit of their punch, alas, but you still get the general shape of the piece. A reasonable compromise, if you're willing to accept compromise. (In a car, I am.) bob |
#23
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:51:52 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ): On Jul 7, 10:22*pm, Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:47 -0700, bob wrote The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob Interesting. It's about time. OTOH, most consumer compressors offered over the years have the release time-constants wrong causing the compressor to "pump" audibly - very annoying. This can be fixed by using a larger capacitor, (or a higher value resistor) in the release circuit (of an analog compressor), but I'm reasonably sure that today's compressors (like the one in your Ford radio) are digital and DSP based, so I don't know what you could do there. I'd be interested to hear how well it works. Let us know, will you? Well, I finally decided to actually try out my car's CD player (I mostly do radio in the car), and it has two interesting features: 1) A control that increases the volume as car speed increases, to compensate for road noise and wind. This is adjustable on a 0-7 scale, with 0 being "off." The manual recommends not going above 3, however. I haven't experimented with this yet. 2) A "compression" feature that reduces the dynamic range, to allow soft passages to be heard above the background noise. This is a simple on-off toggle. I tried it out with a symphonic CD that was unlistenable in my old car. (Did you know there's actually a second movement to Beethoven's Fifth? You wouldn't have heard it in my Civic!) And, indeed, it works pretty much as claimed--almost all of the soft passages are audible, without blasting the fff passages unreasonably. The crescendoes lose a fair bit of their punch, alas, but you still get the general shape of the piece. A reasonable compromise, if you're willing to accept compromise. (In a car, I am.) bob Me too. I do not expect a car stereo to be a home stereo, and indeed, even the "best" of them (even the Mark Levinson system in a friend's Lexus is far from home stereo country, and in fact, really seems no better than the stereos in most of the better cars these days). However I will not stand for compressors that audibly pump. I'd rather not hear the passage than listen to the pumping. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
bob wrote:
On Jul 7, 10:22?pm, Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:47 -0700, bob wrote The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob Interesting. It's about time. OTOH, most consumer compressors offered over the years have the release time-constants wrong causing the compressor to "pump" audibly - very annoying. This can be fixed by using a larger capacitor, (or a higher value resistor) in the release circuit (of an analog compressor), but I'm reasonably sure that today's compressors (like the one in your Ford radio) are digital and DSP based, so I don't know what you could do there. I'd be interested to hear how well it works. Let us know, will you? Well, I finally decided to actually try out my car's CD player (I mostly do radio in the car), and it has two interesting features: 1) A control that increases the volume as car speed increases, to compensate for road noise and wind. This is adjustable on a 0-7 scale, with 0 being "off." The manual recommends not going above 3, however. I haven't experimented with this yet. 2) A "compression" feature that reduces the dynamic range, to allow soft passages to be heard above the background noise. This is a simple on-off toggle. I tried it out with a symphonic CD that was unlistenable in my old car. (Did you know there's actually a second movement to Beethoven's Fifth? You wouldn't have heard it in my Civic!) And, indeed, it works pretty much as claimed--almost all of the soft passages are audible, without blasting the fff passages unreasonably. The crescendoes lose a fair bit of their punch, alas, but you still get the general shape of the piece. A reasonable compromise, if you're willing to accept compromise. (In a car, I am.) I've tried both of these, and the on/off compressor won...I found the variable gadget too distracting. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Fighting Back on the Loudness Wars
On Jul 17, 6:46*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:51:52 -0700, bob wrote (in article ): On Jul 7, 10:22*pm, Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:47 -0700, bob wrote The factory-installed unit on my 2007 Ford Fusion has this feature, although I haven't tried it out yet. bob Interesting. It's about time. OTOH, most consumer compressors offered over the years have the release time-constants wrong causing the compressor to "pump" audibly - very annoying. This can be fixed by using a larger capacitor, (or a higher value resistor) in the release circuit (of an analog compressor), but I'm reasonably sure that today's compressors (like the one in your Ford radio) are digital and DSP based, so I don't know what you could do there. I'd be interested to hear how well it works. Let us know, will you? Well, I finally decided to actually try out my car's CD player (I mostly do radio in the car), and it has two interesting features: 1) A control that increases the volume as car speed increases, to compensate for road noise and wind. This is adjustable on a 0-7 scale, with 0 being "off." The manual recommends not going above 3, however. I haven't experimented with this yet. 2) A "compression" feature that reduces the dynamic range, to allow soft passages to be heard above the background noise. This is a simple on-off toggle. I tried it out with a symphonic CD that was unlistenable in my old car. (Did you know there's actually a second movement to Beethoven's Fifth? You wouldn't have heard it in my Civic!) And, indeed, it works pretty much as claimed--almost all of the soft passages are audible, without blasting the fff passages unreasonably. The crescendoes lose a fair bit of their punch, alas, but you still get the general shape of the piece. A reasonable compromise, if you're willing to accept compromise. (In a car, I am.) bob Me too. I do not expect a car stereo to be a home stereo, and indeed, even the "best" of them (even the Mark Levinson system in a friend's Lexus is far from home stereo country, and in fact, really seems no better than the stereos in most of the better cars these days). However I will not stand for compressors that audibly pump. I'd rather not hear the passage than listen to the pumping. Sounds like the old DBX compression in cassette tapes. Massive dynamic range with the annoying audio pumping. CD |
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