Seems that my system requires an equalizer. My high end dealer recommended
AudioControl Ten Series Two for $250 because it his high speed and low
noise. It is basic 10 controls per side with no graphics or mikes. I see
others out there for a lot less. Will these work as well or will they add
noise?

"Wayne T" wrote in message news:omAyb.371706$HS4.3105447@attbi_s01...
Seems that my system requires an equalizer.

To help in your selection, it is a good idea to explore WHY your
system "needs" an equalizer. What are you trying to do? Does
your system need it because of inherent frequendcy response
errors, such as in the speakers? Does it need it because you have a
lot of recordings that were equalized improperly? Does it need it
becuase your system suffers from a lot of room response problems?

My high end dealer recommended
AudioControl Ten Series Two for $250 because it his high speed and low
noise. It is basic 10 controls per side with no graphics or mikes. I see
others out there for a lot less. Will these work as well or will they add
noise?

For almost ALL applications, graphic equlaizers, i.e., those with a
bunch of controls at fixed frequencies, are pretty useless, no matter
how little noise they have. Why would anyone think that the problems
that need correcting have precisely the same frequency and bandwidth
as what the equalizer provides (hint: they don't).

If you really do need an equalizer, I would recommend a good multi-
band parametric version. Such equalizers provide a number of individually
adjustable equalizer profiles, for example, adjustable center frequency,
bandwidth (or Q) and gain.

If you're trying to correct for room problems, forget an equalizer
altogether: it's a bad idea that won't work and often makes the entire
system worse. Room problems are not correctable by simple frequency
response correction, as the frequency response errors that you measure
are merely symptoms of problems occuring in the time response of the
room. Changing the frequency response does little or nothing to fix
the time problems, and only screws up the frequency response of the
direct signal.

As to noise, noise is the least of the problems you face. Unless the
unit is seriously mis-designed or broken, noise is simply not a problem
with contemporary equalizers.

But, cart before the horse and all that, why do you think you need
and equalizer?

Wayne T wrote:
|| Seems that my system requires an equalizer. My high end dealer
|| recommended AudioControl Ten Series Two for $250 because it his high
|| speed and low noise. It is basic 10 controls per side with no
|| graphics or mikes. I see others out there for a lot less. Will
|| these work as well or will they add noise?

Wayne, what is it that you want to improve with the EQ?
My experience is you rather need better speakers, don't you?
Or maybe you need some bass traps or other acoustic modification in your
listening room. Equalizers usually do not help. :-(
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
electronic hardware designer

In article 2NLyb.273044$9E1.1424522@attbi_s52, Ban wrote:
Wayne, what is it that you want to improve with the EQ?
My experience is you rather need better speakers, don't you?
Or maybe you need some bass traps or other acoustic modification in your
listening room. Equalizers usually do not help. :-(

They're a fine crutch for bad recordings and some listening environment
problems.

A tilt control makes rock music recordings by tone-deaf engineers listenable
on the neutral speakers you bought so that good recordings shine.

Loudness contours following the Fletcher-Munson curves restore a decent
tonal balance when you're forced to listen at lower levels.

A Linkwitz Transform will let you have the poles and Q you want.

A shelving high pass filter can cut frequencies below a ported enclosures
tune that could bottom the woofer(s), or eliminate the boom from room gain.

Notch filters can eliminate peaks.

--
a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/"Home Page/a
Life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease.

Drew Eckhardt wrote:
|| In article 2NLyb.273044$9E1.1424522@attbi_s52, Ban
|| wrote:
||| Wayne, what is it that you want to improve with the EQ?
||| My experience is you rather need better speakers, don't you?
||| Or maybe you need some bass traps or other acoustic modification in
||| your listening room. Equalizers usually do not help. :-(
||
|| They're a fine crutch for bad recordings and some listening
|| environment problems.
||
|| A tilt control makes rock music recordings by tone-deaf engineers
|| listenable on the neutral speakers you bought so that good
|| recordings shine.
||

How can a deaf engineer make a good recording that "shines"? Seems to be a
contradiction in terms. What is a tilt control, BTW?


|| Loudness contours following the Fletcher-Munson curves restore a
|| decent tonal balance when you're forced to listen at lower levels.
||

So you want to fiddle the 20 sliders he is descibing each time you turn the
volume down? Those controls only survive a maximum of a hundred operations
before they start crackling. :-(


|| A Linkwitz Transform will let you have the poles and Q you want.
||

Really with the graphical EQ you can do that? I have an active system and I
do it, but with passive speakers?

|| A shelving high pass filter can cut frequencies below a ported
|| enclosures tune that could bottom the woofer(s), or eliminate the
|| boom from room gain.
||
You cannot eliminate boom from room gain, unless you have no bass at all.
Resonances and standing waves can only be eliminated with acoustical means
like the ones mentioned in my first post.

|| Notch filters can eliminate peaks.
||

That was my mentioning better speakers. If you have peaks in the
transmission curve, it is because of resonances in the speaker cone. You can
then put specific filters (tank LC) in parallel or in series with the single
chassis, but an overall graphic EQ with fixed Qs?

Please note, my answer was to the OP about the "high-end" 10 slider graphic
EQ. It was also considering his apparent level of understanding. I know
there is a hell of apps. where *appropriate* EQs *have* to be used, but this
is not at the consumer level.

--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
electronic hardware designer
http://www.bansuri.my-page.ms/

On 3 Dec 2003 16:33:14 GMT, "Ban" wrote:

Drew Eckhardt wrote:
|| In article 2NLyb.273044$9E1.1424522@attbi_s52, Ban
|| wrote:
||| Wayne, what is it that you want to improve with the EQ?
||| My experience is you rather need better speakers, don't you?
||| Or maybe you need some bass traps or other acoustic modification in
||| your listening room. Equalizers usually do not help. :-(
||
|| They're a fine crutch for bad recordings and some listening
|| environment problems.
||
|| A tilt control makes rock music recordings by tone-deaf engineers
|| listenable on the neutral speakers you bought so that good
|| recordings shine.

How can a deaf engineer make a good recording that "shines"? Seems to be a
contradiction in terms. What is a tilt control, BTW?

Many rock engineers have sever upper-range hearing loss, and their
control room monitors are EQ'd up the kazoo with a rising treble
response (hence 'tilt'). A normal schoolchild introduced to such a
control room will hear a *horrifically* screechy sound, but the
balance may be perfectly neutral once the recording is replayed on a
truly neutral home system. Note that this does depend on the engineer
*knowing* what his hearing is like..................

|| Loudness contours following the Fletcher-Munson curves restore a
|| decent tonal balance when you're forced to listen at lower levels.
||
So you want to fiddle the 20 sliders he is descibing each time you turn the
volume down? Those controls only survive a maximum of a hundred operations
before they start crackling. :-(

Not if you use Penny & Giles faders, they don't!

|| A Linkwitz Transform will let you have the poles and Q you want.
||

Really with the graphical EQ you can do that? I have an active system and I
do it, but with passive speakers?

Introduce the EQ into a tape loop.

|| A shelving high pass filter can cut frequencies below a ported
|| enclosures tune that could bottom the woofer(s), or eliminate the
|| boom from room gain.
||
You cannot eliminate boom from room gain, unless you have no bass at all.
Resonances and standing waves can only be eliminated with acoustical means
like the ones mentioned in my first post.

Well, that's true, but EQ can help.

|| Notch filters can eliminate peaks.
||
That was my mentioning better speakers. If you have peaks in the
transmission curve, it is because of resonances in the speaker cone.

Or the room...............

You can
then put specific filters (tank LC) in parallel or in series with the single
chassis, but an overall graphic EQ with fixed Qs?

Parametric equalisers have variable Q and centre frtequencies, they
can tune out response peaks and dips quite well.

Please note, my answer was to the OP about the "high-end" 10 slider graphic
EQ. It was also considering his apparent level of understanding. I know
there is a hell of apps. where *appropriate* EQs *have* to be used, but this
is not at the consumer level.

OK, but parametrics are readily available on the consumer and semi-pro
markets.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 3 Dec 2003 16:33:14 GMT, "Ban" wrote:

Drew Eckhardt wrote:
|| In article 2NLyb.273044$9E1.1424522@attbi_s52, Ban
|| wrote:
||| Wayne, what is it that you want to improve with the EQ?
||| My experience is you rather need better speakers, don't you?
||| Or maybe you need some bass traps or other acoustic modification in
||| your listening room. Equalizers usually do not help. :-(
||
|| They're a fine crutch for bad recordings and some listening
|| environment problems.
||
|| A tilt control makes rock music recordings by tone-deaf engineers
|| listenable on the neutral speakers you bought so that good
|| recordings shine.

How can a deaf engineer make a good recording that "shines"? Seems to be a
contradiction in terms. What is a tilt control, BTW?

Many rock engineers have sever upper-range hearing loss, and their
control room monitors are EQ'd up the kazoo with a rising treble
response (hence 'tilt').

I hope that's the case. But when I hear a toppy recording, I wonder
if some of those engineers are applying the EQ to the music itself
rather than to the monitors. (If the monitors are tilted up, then
the recordings played ona neutral system woudl sound dull;
if the recording itself is tilted up, then it will sound bright
on a neutral system).

A normal schoolchild introduced to such a
control room will hear a *horrifically* screechy sound, but the
balance may be perfectly neutral once the recording is replayed on a
truly neutral home system. Note that this does depend on the engineer
*knowing* what his hearing is like..................

I thought what Drew meant was that using EQ at home can correct for
recordings that were badly EQd by the tone-deaf engineers. Having
'neutral' speakers removes *them* as a variable, while adding EQ at
home 'neutralizes' the tone-deaf engineering tilt.

We're probably all talking about the same thing.


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director