paul packer said:

If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you
cross-posting from there?

Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech
noted.

Well, here's a better question: if you unsubscribed from RAO why are
you still taking part in the kind of futile and endlessly repeating
debate that presumably caused you to unsubscribe from RAO in the first
place?

Did you realize that Mr. **** stuck his ****ty nose into the exchange?

BTW, Pukey is hoping to get knighted before the old Queen dies. That's the
real reason he exed RAO -- we have no respect for royalty.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Why does anything have to be wrong with us?


You confessed once over in rat that you actually also hear differences
in real world listening environments, as opposed to in DBT's but that
you disregard that. So how does that work? Is it because it is sighted?
And then you have the audacity to claim that abx is about trusting your
ears???!!! How much of an idiot can you get to be? Is there no limit to
this? What the f.ck is rong with you?!?! You *HEAR* something but you
don't *trust* what you hear, since you also *see* and know.. You say "I
am seeing what is playing, what I am hearing can't be true. Here, let me
put a bunch of cheap banana interconnects and level matching gear and
cheap relay abx box in between this amp and the speakers. Let me level
match this with some $80 pioneer receiver. Let me get all wound-up and
stressed out about the whole issue.. Yeah OK, now I hear no difference,
great."

There *has* to be something wrong with you to do that.

BTW: Did you google up that BAT (with the tube stage in) or have you
ever heard one yourself? Did you hear what it does to voices, what it
does to the midrange? Man, talk about bloated midrange. HUUGE
motherf.cker. Or maybe it just reacted to my speakers and room in a
peculiar way. Dunno. In any case, holger czukay, for instance, sounded
like he was some king-kong, barely able to fit into the universe.
Yeah, and some $80 pioneer sounds the same you say, sure.

Margaret von B. wrote:
"Fella" wrote in message
.. .

Arny Krueger wrote:


Fact of the matter is that I do a fair amount of listening
to a $80 Pioneer SX205 receiver.


Yea, you listen to it? What does it say?


Based on his history, my money is on "**** you!"



That could very much be true in arny's case. In a way that, the pioneer
might be ****ing him over pretty badly. It would explain all this bitter
anger and hate.

I remember when I just started working here I was in some kind of a
cubicle space. Working very close to me was this guy who'd brought some
old pioneer receiver (or was it yamaha?) and little mission monitor type
of speakers. He'd (we'd) listen to radio all day. It was damn
irritating, screechy disgusting sound. I'd go home all wound up and angry.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Fella" wrote in message


Clyde Slick wrote:


Debating trade trick no 28. Purposefully misinterpret and
misrepresent waht I say, and then prove the

misinterpreted

misrepresentation is wrong.

I thought that was his trick numero uno. He tries it all

the

time.


After the butcher job you did on Pinkerton's post, Fella?

Ok, so this must be trick no 2. You do this all the time arny. I
accepted my mistake with not seeing the word "in" in pinkertons post. It
was a mistake, this mr T pointed it out, and yes, I acknowledged it. The
most important aspect here is that I did not do it *intentionally*.

But you, arny, you have bad will, you are totaly bereft of any kind of a
human dignity whatsoever. You intentionally twist and pervert, you are
one of lowest, cheapest kind of a demagouge I've ever had the
displeasure to meet. All that matters for you is to "win" (hahaaa) these
"debates" in the eyes of the other dumskull borgs that follow you to
your blind alley..



How long ago did they remove your self-awareness?


If IRONY would...

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Why does anything have to be wrong with us?


You confessed once over in rat that you actually also hear
differences in real world listening environments, as
opposed
to in DBT's but that you disregard that.

I also hear differences in DBTs so what does that mean?

So how does that work?

Things sound different and I hear differences.

Is it because it is sighted?

It even happens sometimes when the listening test is blind.

And then you have the
audacity to claim that abx is about trusting your
ears???!!!

This comment does not follow from any logical progression of
ideas.

How much of an idiot can you get to be?

I've had enough of your abuse, Fella. Try doing something
anatomically impossible.

"paul packer" wrote in message


On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:22:09 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you
cross-posting from there?

Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech
noted.

Well, here's a better question: if you unsubscribed from
RAO
why are you still taking part in the kind of futile and
endlessly repeating debate that presumably caused you to
unsubscribe from RAO in the first place?

Where did I say that I unsubscribed from RAO?

Packer, your hanging out with Middius seems to have caused
you to read things that nobody wrote. He's got the same
problem you know.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:32:33 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"paul packer" wrote in message


On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:22:09 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you
cross-posting from there?

Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech
noted.

Well, here's a better question: if you unsubscribed from
RAO
why are you still taking part in the kind of futile and
endlessly repeating debate that presumably caused you to
unsubscribe from RAO in the first place?

Where did I say that I unsubscribed from RAO?

Packer, your hanging out with Middius seems to have caused
you to read things that nobody wrote. He's got the same
problem you know.

Inability to note that he Mr. Packer never claimed that *you* unsub'ed
from RAO; that he was simply rephrasing the first question to Mr.
Pinkerton.

So, since you are reading things that nobody wrote, does this mean
that YOU have been hanging out with Middius?

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:03:21 +0300, Fella wrote:

Do you do a DBT when you eat some
better tasting meal at a gourmet restaurant? NO! You sit there and eat it.

Probably correct.

But, when tasting wines you do! Very many of us do think that seeing
the label before tasting the wine will harm your impression severly.
The wine pros wouldn't even think of not doing the tasting (double)
blind!

Why would it be any different with listening to audio gear?

Per.

Arny Krueger wrote:


I also hear differences in DBTs so what does that mean?


That one or the other is "malfunctioning" ?




I've had enough of your abuse, Fella.

I had asked pinkerton a question. It was you who dropped into the
exchange butt-first. "heereee felllaaa, kick my butt fellaa" .. So I
kekced yer buttt. Stop whining!

BTW: Nice of you to avoid the BAT question. Typical. You google
skccciieence-tist you.

I only mentioned the BAT amp there because I had *just* been through a
two week audition with it. It has a supersized midrange, it is
incredibly fluent, lush. So much that one ends up listening to the amp,
not the music. It is an amp to "die for" as my friend said once. I
was *still* under the influence of that amp... Then you go and do a
google on "bat integrated" I guess. And you throw about your google
copy-paste knowledge against my first hand experience. You are a
cheat arny, you are a liar.

dave weil said to Turdborg:

So, since you are reading things that nobody wrote, does this mean
that YOU have been hanging out with Middius?

Hardly™. I always flush.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net wrote in message

dave weil said to Turdborg:

So, since you are reading things that nobody wrote, does
this
mean that YOU have been hanging out with Middius?

HardlyT. I always flush.

Nope, Sackman keeps floating up, again and again.

George M. Middius wrote:
dave weil said to Turdborg:

So, since you are reading things that nobody wrote, does this mean
that YOU have been hanging out with Middius?

Hardly=99. I always flush.

Will you trolls from R.O.A please **** off back to the Land of The
Brave and Zenophobic.Please.

Arnii, do you still deny having **** where your brains should be?

Why does anything have to be wrong with us?

It doesn't. As I've mentioned many times, it's entirely possible therapy would
help you. And if not just therapy, then some medication. We just covered this
yesterday, and you got all flustered and demanded guidance on using Thorazine.
You seem to be at once embracing and rejecting the idea of getting professional
help. If your wife's insurance doesn't cover it, you can get free treatment at a
community clinic.

"Fella" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:


I also hear differences in DBTs so what does that mean?


That one or the other is "malfunctioning" ?




I've had enough of your abuse, Fella.

I had asked pinkerton a question. It was you who dropped into the exchange
butt-first. "heereee felllaaa, kick my butt fellaa" .. So I kekced yer
buttt. Stop whining!

Indeed. Stop whining, Arny!

Cheers,

Margaret

Fella said:

I didn't drop that amp. I had it over for two weeks, it had the tube
gain stage in there, btw... I listened, decided that it sounded too
larger-than-life for my tastes and returned it. Looking for something to
replace my densen (Sander is still supposed send me one of his samples).
Hence the comeback to the group, btw.


Heyhey, I totally forgot about that!
Send me an e-mail, please: you still have the address IIRC.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:43:56 GMT, "jeffc" wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .

Switched between two players at a time, (normally the Pioneer and any
'audiophile contender' nowadays, but the Meridian's been compared
against both Pioneer and Sony), using identical CD-Rs synchronised as
closely as possible, and with levels set to be the same +/- 0.1dB at
the speaker terminals, using -20dB test tones at 20Hz, 1kHz and 10kHz.
Since no statistically significant identification was possible, it
seems that the synch was adequate!

Or, more likely, the ears were not.

How would you know? It's not like yours are connected to anything with
more processing power than a ZX Spectrum...............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:02:28 GMT, (paul packer)
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:10:06 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:



Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that
it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless
no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge.

If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you cross-posting from
there?

I'm not, I'm posting from rec.audio.tech.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:38:13 GMT, (paul packer)
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:22:09 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you
cross-posting from there?

Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech
noted.

Well, here's a better question: if you unsubscribed from RAO why are
you still taking part in the kind of futile and endlessly repeating
debate that presumably caused you to unsubscribe from RAO in the first
place?

Good point. Bluddy Hiddius and his cronies....................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:03:21 +0300, Fella wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:40 +0300, Fella wrote:

Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is
biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer
DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound
quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player.


I've tried to dissect this little statement of yours up there. Just made
no sense to me.

What a surprise..............

So modern r&d amps (what's an "r&d" amp? Research and
development amp? What is that?)

Did you miss the word 'in'?

and CD players *"is"* biased towards
cost reduction and this gives your pioneer dvd player exactly the same
sound as a naim, for instance.. Hmm... How does that work out?

Actually, it's probably better than a Naim, as Naim generally tweak
their geriatric crap to have the Naim 'house' sound. Sensible people
like Meridian leave the sound as neutral as possible.

However, how it works out is that all decently designed gear sounds
the same, so the only way to improve it is to make it (a) play more
kinds of silver disc, and (b) cost less to manufacture. Not exactly
rocket science, but clearly way beyond your ability to comprehend.

It
also plays movies!

Well hardy har har! Congrats there old boy!

If you've really been there and done that, you'll know that they
really do work.

If your sense of "work" means that they curtain enough detail, where
real consequential differences lie, plus the "test" situation, and make
everything sound the same, then yes, they do work.

You're a cretin, and a liar, but we knew that. How does a basic DBT,
which involves only swapping cables, 'curtain detail'?

This *is* about envy with you low-income nerd types, isn't it? You
imagine your yamaha metallic sound $120 receiver as sounding the same as
some $5000 BAT integrated amp, yes? That's how you are able to consume
that edgy, glaringly digital, transistor sound you get from your piece
of **** gear.


You really are a prat, aren't you?

Pace, rhythm and timing? Yes, when done correctly, always a good thing.

And it's done correctly by any decent gear. Martin Colloms is
demented.........

See my page he http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/

Wouv! I am impressed.

But wait a sec.. You say:

"Interconnects are home-brewed unshielded twisted pair made from 0.6mm
solid-core Teflon-coated silver-clad OFHC copper (just standard MIL-spec
hookup wire), while connectors are either Neutrik XLR or Deltron
Teflon/alloy RCA jacks."

What's that? Solid core silver clad-OFHC-copper-teflon-bla-bla bla??!
WIRE IS WIRE!! As dumbmika would put it.

That's right - standard MIL-spec hookup wire in this case. BTW, thanks
for paying for it! :-)

And what? "Sony CDP715E – a curious player, not a ‘flagship’ by any
means, but it brought together all Sony’s best CD chips in a way not
really improved" bla bla..

So just *how* does a CD player become "flagship" ? That yours is not a
flagship? Don't they all sound the same?

Nope, Sony always had their ES range, their flagships with massively
excessive (but beautifully built) casework. Didn't make the players
*sound* any better, of course.........

No but seriously, you should think more about speaker placement, your
"rack" seems to get in the way.

Ah, you didn't note the text where I noted that they're pulled five
feet out from the wall for 'serious' listening? Typical inattention to
detail on your part, Fella...................

You should get yourself a decent
rack, too, btw.

Why? What difference would that make?

And.. Yes, you owe yourself this audition:

http://www.bladelius.com/freja.html

BWAHAHAHA! It doesn't exactly have SOTA specs, so it's unlikely to
prove any kind of challenge to my Pioneer. I have 3dB more dynamic
range and less than half the distortion (not that it really matters at
these absurdly low levels!). I grant you that it might sound
*different*, it it's a typical 'high end' garbage design, but it sure
won't sound *better*. Dammit, the user manual doesn't even contain a
proper technical spec sheet, and it blathers on about 'burn-in', fer
krissakes!

Tell me, why would there be *any* reason to suppose that some
back-street operation in Sweden could produce better sound quality
than the the massive R&D labs of Pioneer, Sony, Philips et al? Pretty
casework, sure, but better *sound* quality? Remember, they're using
the same Sony or Philips transport mech, the same servo and error
correction electronics as everone else, and if they're only using one
Burr-Brown DAC, then they're not exactly at the cutting edge of
technology, are they?

Just get this (though dunno if you _can_ where you live, wherever that
might be, who cares! if not get a Linn univesal player) and hook it up.
You *will* hear an abundance of all kinds of differences... ALL for the
better! Don't mess with any DBT sessions to verify this though. JUST
TRUST YOUR FRIGGIN EARS FERCHRISSAKES!

A DBT is the ultimate test of your *ears*, asshole. It's only clowns
like you who need to *see* which player is connected, to 'hear' all
those wonderful 'differences' you're bleating about.

Do you do a DBT when you eat some
better tasting meal at a gourmet restaurant? NO! You sit there and eat it.

Sure - but not if I'm *comparing* restaurants.

Piece of **** gear? I don't think so................

So why don't you use some $200 yamaha integrated amp (or whatever the
**** they might cost arny!) as an amp? Level matched and fixed volume
and all that they all sound the same? What's with that "exotic" amp?
"krell" ?? Ain't never heard of no "kkrelll" in circuitcity, haha! (or
wherever the **** you should be getting your electronics from)..

You can't drive 84dB/w/m 3-ohm speakers with a Yamaha, not without it
glowing cherry-red! OTOH, I did once publish the result of DBTs from
about ten years ago, where I did indeed use a Yamaha AX-570 in
comparison with the Krell, and it was almost identical, just a trace
of brightness in the treble gave it away. My Audiolab 8000P however
does sound just like the Krell - but gets way too hot after a half
hour of heavy rock or Wagner.................

Note that (despite the Krell being rated at 50 watts into 8 ohms) all
three of the above will put out around 190 watts into a 4-ohm load,
but the Yamaha has the least current reserves and the Krell maintains
its rated output doubling right down to 400 watts *continuous* into a
1 ohm load.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:05:38 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message
t
Arny Krueger wrote:


Pace, rhythm and timing is what musicans do, and what
recording engineers sometimes modify. It's not a property
of
amplifiers or CD players.

.....

Given that low cost players can provide facsimile
reproduction of CDs,

You don't even have a clue as to what you are missing out
on

You're just posturing.

He doesn't have anything else to offer.

Wire is wire as Pinkerton would say it.

So now you are putting words into pinkertons mouth?

Nope, I've often used that exact phrase, although IIRC it was Tom
Nousaine who first used it in these here parts.

Where?

If wire is
wire and some el-cheapo radioshack wire would do the *same*
thing then why in the hell did pinkerton go to all that
trouble "home brew"ing all the exotic teflon silver bla bla?

I think the story goes that he had a ton of the teflon
silver stuff on hand, and wanted to use it up.

Yup, standard MIL-spec hookup wire left over from some hardware we
were building for the DOD. Went past its 'use by' date and was skipped
- straight into my parts bin. Thanks, all you US taxpayers! :-)

OTOH, the reason it makes a good interconnect cable is EE101. It's
very thin, and has thin insulation, so the loop area of a tightly
twisted pair is very small, which reduces RFI pickup. No 'magic' or
unobtainium required, just basic physics. Oh yeah, and the Teflon
insulation and silver plating makes neat soldering much easier.

What the f.ck is wrong with you people?

We're fine, you're the whacko...................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:02:38 GMT, "dean" wrote:


"
Dean, the price is $200USD, not $2000USD. Arny had said for the price
of replacing the laser in the XA7ES (less than $200USD), I could get a
new one which sounds as good. So I asked him to name some player for
under $200USD, which he did. Althought I'm not entirely convinced that
it will sound as good though.


** In that case, I can tell you that wont be able to find anything as good
as XA7ES for $200USD.

Sure you will, if it's sound quality you're interested in.

I don't read Audio magazines or online reviews but I
do trust my ears and cheapo CD players is no where near as good as flagship
models players like XA7ES.

Utter bull****. All good CD players sound the same. Only the really
expensive 'high end' players tend to be so badly designed that they
sound different....................

Even with DVD players ( though I am not into home
theatre that much ) the difference in picture &sound between a cheap DVD
players and top range DVD players are apparent.

Differences in picture, certainly. In sound, uh uh.

One of my friends bought a pair of Acoustic Image from the "White Van Scam"
gang awhile ago. Even though I told him that those speakers consist of cheap
drivers and probably don't have cross-over networks and they sounded
*horrible* comparing many other budget speakers ( Dali, Jamo ). He did not
believe me and total convinced that they were as good as Dynaudio Contour
series which he have heard in the HiFi shop. Until I have found an article
about the scam and shown him and ever since then they have been used as
seats. This shows you how convinced people can be until.........

Exactly - that's why DBTs are important (not that you need them for
speakers). Use DBTs, and you'll realise that it also works the other
way - a $10,000 'designer label' CD player simply does *not* sound
better - or even different - than a $200 'Chinky cheapy' universal
player such as the Pioneer DV-575A. Of course, you don't get bragging
rights with the Pioneer........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:48:23 +0300, Fella wrote:

I only mentioned the BAT amp there because I had *just* been through a
two week audition with it. It has a supersized midrange, it is
incredibly fluent, lush. So much that one ends up listening to the amp,
not the music.

Sounds like a real piece of crap! It's certainly possible to design a
*bad* amp, no one is denying that...................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:20:58 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:


Nowadays, they mostly don't. Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is
biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer
DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound
quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player

Care to provide the dbt details that supports your statement?

Same protocol as always, and compared with a Meridian 588.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:20:58 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:


Nowadays, they mostly don't. Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is
biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer
DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound
quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player

Care to provide the dbt details that supports your statement?

Same protocol as always, and compared with a Meridian 588.

So, when you said "*a* SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player", you were
speaking only of the Meridian, not any other player, right? It sounded
as if you were speaking "generally".

I'd still be interested in the details of your dbt.

Thanks for replying.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:48:23 +0300, Fella wrote:


I only mentioned the BAT amp there because I had *just* been through a
two week audition with it. It has a supersized midrange, it is
incredibly fluent, lush. So much that one ends up listening to the amp,
not the music.


Sounds like a real piece of crap! It's certainly possible to design a
*bad* amp, no one is denying that...................

Well crap it was not. Just didn't suit my tastes. But there are plenty
of people I know who's give an arm and a leg for it. Go figure.

I'll take the Dewey Decimal System over Library of Congress numbers
any day.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:20:58 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:


Nowadays, they mostly don't. Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is
biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer
DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound
quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player

Care to provide the dbt details that supports your statement?

Same protocol as always,

AKA drunken babble.

Cheers,

Margaret

"jeffc" wrote in message
m...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
In level-matched blind listening tests, these three
players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect.

It's true - any reasonable person would expect that you can't hear the
difference between any audio components.


True, I am a reasonble person and I doubt that
Stewart can hear the difference.



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"jeffc" wrote in message
m...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...


Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again.

Indeed - that's why the tests are done blind...........

Another idiotic conclusion. It's no harder to convince yourself that 2
components sound exactly the same in DBT than it is to convince yourself
that they sound different in sighted testing.


It's those damned expectation effects.



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their
expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute
knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than
'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major
audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but
real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of
listeners.


Are they surveyed as to their
perconceptions?



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their
expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute
knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than
'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major
audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but
real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of
listeners.


Are they surveyed as to their
perconceptions?



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their
expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute
knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than
'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major
audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but
real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of
listeners.


Are they surveyed as to their
perconceptions?



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their
expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute
knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than
'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major
audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but
real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of
listeners.


Are they surveyed as to their
perconceptions?



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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their
expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute
knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than
'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major
audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but
real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of
listeners.


I mean, are they surveyed as to their preconceptions regarding
the two particular devices, parts, designs, etc. being compared?



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Sure, it sounds the same to people who have
preconceived notions that it will sound the same.

It also sounds the same to gullible fools - they just refuse to
believe it, and shell out for fancy nameplates. It's a bit like the
idiots who buy 'designer label' plain white T-shirts for $40.


How the hell can you know that.



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that
it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless
no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge.


Thanks for admitting you incompetence. You can't
even fool gullible people.



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that
it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless
no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge.


Thanks for admitting you incompetence. You can't
even fool gullible people.



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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Compare and contrast with the 'false sighted' test, where the audience
is told that A is a cheap SS amp, and B is a 'designer label' tube
amp. Several pieces are played with changeover switches being thrown
to indicate tube or SS, and the audience duly notes the liquid treble
and added inner detail of the tube amp. Of course, the switch isn't
actually connected.......................
--

I never took such a test. Who here has?



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"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in
message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in
message
...
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote:

And the abx test removes our expectations, yet
leaves
their expectations
in.
It is a more biased test than subjective
listening!!!
ABX is hideously flawed.

Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support
your
absolute knowledge that 'high-end' designer label
gear
*must* sound better than 'Chinky cheapies'.
--

It doesn't support it because it is inherently
designed
to purposefully support the opposite conclusion.
It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove
the expectation effects of those who
have preconceived notions that there are no
differences.

Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used
every
day by major audio manufacturers, for the precise
purpose
of *revealing* small but real audible differences made
by
their R&D guys. Cretin.

And who are the subjects taking such tests?

The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected
panels
of listeners.


I mean, are they surveyed as to their preconceptions
regarding
the two particular devices, parts, designs, etc. being
compared?

4 identical responses to the same post, and a 5th which says
about the same thing. Someone really has Art's dander up!

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in
message
...

Compare and contrast with the 'false sighted' test, where
the
audience is told that A is a cheap SS amp, and B is a
'designer label' tube amp. Several pieces are played with
changeover switches being thrown to indicate tube or SS,
and
the audience duly notes the liquid treble and added inner
detail of the tube amp. Of course, the switch isn't
actually
connected....................... --

I never took such a test. Who here has?

As close as I've come involved a designer SS amp versus a
cheap Pioneer receiver.

Same outcome.