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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
This relates to some basic questions as to how to achieve the best audio
response and bass management in a home system combining both video and audio (stereo and MC). To clarify my question, I need to briefly describe my system and some of the options available. I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. All three units can be connected via HDMI cables, and the Oppo and NAD units also have stereo and MC analog inputs and outputs. (Speakers include Magneplanar 3.6Rs fronts, smaller Maggies for center and surround channels, and two Velodyne subs.) - I know this is an audio ng, but hopefully everyone can forgive me for trying to use the system for video also. - I won't mention the word again. My questions relate to the best approach for interconnecting and setting up the Oppo player and the NAD prepro for getting the best audio. It seems that there are lots of differing opinions, and that recommendations from audiophiles differ from those from "videophiles" and home theater buffs. The video enthusiasts (sorry, I used the word) and some MC audiophiles point out that, for surround sound and home theater, they prefer to use digital signal processing (such as Audyssey) to provide time-delay correction for differing speaker distances from the listening position, and for EQ processing to help overcome room and system distortion. For stereo, and MC SACD, however, some audiophiles recommend using either no, or minimal DSP, in that they say this can help minimize distortion that would otherwise be introduced by the DSP processingy. My own experience so far is that I sometimes prefer one approach and sometimes another. For audio, I usually turn the Audyssey system OFF, because I find it tends to "veil" the audio, particularly with resepct to attenuating high frequencies and transparency I otherwise enjoy with the Maggies. There are choices for several response curves when using Audyssey, and I seem to prefer using one of these for TV and Blu-ray. The other choices I have to make include whether to use interconnects connected to the analog outs of the player or an HDMI cable for connecting the player and the pre/pro. Another set of choices relates to the settings available with the prepro and the player. E.g., whether to try using bass management functions in the NAD and/or the Oppo units, or not. Incidentally, as an audio enthusiast with many years of listening experience, I'm very impressed with the lossless audio codecs available on Blu-ray discs. (Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.) I would appreciate recommendations and suggestions from anyone who has looked into these issues. In particular, I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has actually tried setting up such a system, tried using Audyssey or another such system. Has anyone tried several approaches to setting up the audio functions of such a system AND ALSO conducted semi-blind listening tests of the various choices? For obtaining the most direct audio connections (with no dsp or bass management), I can connect interconnects between the stereo outs of the Oppo player to the stereo inputs of the NAD pre/pro., using no bass management in either unit. The problem with this approach is that the Maggie 3.6rs don't have an extended bass, and I prefer to use the sub for frequencies below 60Hz or so. QUESTION: If I use a Y-connector to connect the stereo outs from the pre/pro (or the Oppo, which als includes volume controls) to my front speakers AND the sub, would the insertion of the Y-connector cause any problems, such as an undesireable impedance shift? (In other words, the line-level signals from the front channel outs would be sent to both the sub and the front mains, and the sub output above 60Hz or so would be rolled off, such that both the sub and the speakers be reproducing the same lower-frequency signals. In my system, I don't hear much low frequency bass from the Maggies, so there isn't much interference between the sub and the mains if the sub output is below 60Hz or so.) Is there anything wrong with that approach, or with using a Y-connector? Alternatively, I could also try to connect the sub to another line-level outputs. Sorry for the extended questions. Perhaps someone could recommend good sources I could read about setting up such systems. (In the past I've tried using the ICBM, and an active crossover, for connecting the sub(s), with limited success.) Jim Cate |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
These are the classic questions that every thinking person debates.
First, I am more positive about the ability of Audyssey and similar EQs and would not avoid its use, regardless of the number of channels being played or the source. After all, the room's acoustics and the speakers are constants. Second, I would avoid using the volume control on the Oppo as it will truncate the bitstream as you attenuate. Third, Y-cables are entirely benign as long as the connections are secure. Fourth, the bass management facilities on the Oppo are extremely limited and the ones on the NAD are vastly superior. That alone suggests the use of digital, rather than analog, connections between them. Fifth, instead of listening to the opinions of others (including me) about subjective preferences, I suggest you connect it all up the standard digital (and easy) way and live with it for a while. Then, experiment with your many options to decide what you like best. Kal On 30 May 2009 04:52:15 GMT, "Jim Cate" wrote: This relates to some basic questions as to how to achieve the best audio response and bass management in a home system combining both video and audio (stereo and MC). To clarify my question, I need to briefly describe my system and some of the options available. I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. All three units can be connected via HDMI cables, and the Oppo and NAD units also have stereo and MC analog inputs and outputs. (Speakers include Magneplanar 3.6Rs fronts, smaller Maggies for center and surround channels, and two Velodyne subs.) - I know this is an audio ng, but hopefully everyone can forgive me for trying to use the system for video also. - I won't mention the word again. My questions relate to the best approach for interconnecting and setting up the Oppo player and the NAD prepro for getting the best audio. It seems that there are lots of differing opinions, and that recommendations from audiophiles differ from those from "videophiles" and home theater buffs. The video enthusiasts (sorry, I used the word) and some MC audiophiles point out that, for surround sound and home theater, they prefer to use digital signal processing (such as Audyssey) to provide time-delay correction for differing speaker distances from the listening position, and for EQ processing to help overcome room and system distortion. For stereo, and MC SACD, however, some audiophiles recommend using either no, or minimal DSP, in that they say this can help minimize distortion that would otherwise be introduced by the DSP processingy. My own experience so far is that I sometimes prefer one approach and sometimes another. For audio, I usually turn the Audyssey system OFF, because I find it tends to "veil" the audio, particularly with resepct to attenuating high frequencies and transparency I otherwise enjoy with the Maggies. There are choices for several response curves when using Audyssey, and I seem to prefer using one of these for TV and Blu-ray. The other choices I have to make include whether to use interconnects connected to the analog outs of the player or an HDMI cable for connecting the player and the pre/pro. Another set of choices relates to the settings available with the prepro and the player. E.g., whether to try using bass management functions in the NAD and/or the Oppo units, or not. Incidentally, as an audio enthusiast with many years of listening experience, I'm very impressed with the lossless audio codecs available on Blu-ray discs. (Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.) I would appreciate recommendations and suggestions from anyone who has looked into these issues. In particular, I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has actually tried setting up such a system, tried using Audyssey or another such system. Has anyone tried several approaches to setting up the audio functions of such a system AND ALSO conducted semi-blind listening tests of the various choices? For obtaining the most direct audio connections (with no dsp or bass management), I can connect interconnects between the stereo outs of the Oppo player to the stereo inputs of the NAD pre/pro., using no bass management in either unit. The problem with this approach is that the Maggie 3.6rs don't have an extended bass, and I prefer to use the sub for frequencies below 60Hz or so. QUESTION: If I use a Y-connector to connect the stereo outs from the pre/pro (or the Oppo, which als includes volume controls) to my front speakers AND the sub, would the insertion of the Y-connector cause any problems, such as an undesireable impedance shift? (In other words, the line-level signals from the front channel outs would be sent to both the sub and the front mains, and the sub output above 60Hz or so would be rolled off, such that both the sub and the speakers be reproducing the same lower-frequency signals. In my system, I don't hear much low frequency bass from the Maggies, so there isn't much interference between the sub and the mains if the sub output is below 60Hz or so.) Is there anything wrong with that approach, or with using a Y-connector? Alternatively, I could also try to connect the sub to another line-level outputs. Sorry for the extended questions. Perhaps someone could recommend good sources I could read about setting up such systems. (In the past I've tried using the ICBM, and an active crossover, for connecting the sub(s), with limited success.) Jim Cate |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
"Jim Cate" wrote in message
... QUESTION: If I use a Y-connector to connect the stereo outs from the pre/pro (or the Oppo, which als includes volume controls) to my front speakers AND the sub, would the insertion of the Y-connector cause any problems, such as an undesireable impedance shift? (In other words, the line-level signals from the front channel outs would be sent to both the sub and the front mains, and the sub output above 60Hz or so would be rolled off, such that both the sub and the speakers be reproducing the same lower-frequency signals. In my system, I don't hear much low frequency bass from the Maggies, so there isn't much interference between the sub and the mains if the sub output is below 60Hz or so.) Is there anything wrong with that approach, or with using a Y-connector? Could someone answer the above question about using an interconnect Y-connector? I'm about to try it, but I don't want to mess up my system. Jim |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Sat, 30 May 2009 08:29:53 -0700, Jim Cate wrote
(in article ): "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... QUESTION: If I use a Y-connector to connect the stereo outs from the pre/pro (or the Oppo, which als includes volume controls) to my front speakers AND the sub, would the insertion of the Y-connector cause any problems, such as an undesireable impedance shift? (In other words, the line-level signals from the front channel outs would be sent to both the sub and the front mains, and the sub output above 60Hz or so would be rolled off, such that both the sub and the speakers be reproducing the same lower-frequency signals. In my system, I don't hear much low frequency bass from the Maggies, so there isn't much interference between the sub and the mains if the sub output is below 60Hz or so.) Is there anything wrong with that approach, or with using a Y-connector? Could someone answer the above question about using an interconnect Y-connector? I'm about to try it, but I don't want to mess up my system. Jim Go ahead and try it, you won't mess-up your system. If you were trying this with power-amp outputs connected directly to speakers, there MIGHT be some impedance problems, but as I understand your post, you are doing this with line-level signals and there won't be any problems at all. I do a similar thing myself. The main outputs of my Audio Research SP11 MKIII pre-amp are "Y-ed" into both my main power amp and into my two self-powered subwoofers simultaneously. It works fine. |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote
(in article ): I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. The only reason that the Oppo has this feature is to allow it to play SACD-layer only discs. Your Sony, OTOH, up-samples regular CD to DSD. I think you'll be losing whatever advantage you find in SACD. Now, there's no doubt that the Oppo is a nice unit - especially for video, and it is very flexible, sort of a Swiss army knife of little silver disc players, but it is not a true SACD player by any stretch of the imagination. This was confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On 30 May 2009 15:29:53 GMT, "Jim Cate" wrote:
"Jim Cate" wrote in message ... QUESTION: If I use a Y-connector to connect the stereo outs from the pre/pro (or the Oppo, which als includes volume controls) to my front speakers AND the sub, would the insertion of the Y-connector cause any problems, such as an undesireable impedance shift? (In other words, the line-level signals from the front channel outs would be sent to both the sub and the front mains, and the sub output above 60Hz or so would be rolled off, such that both the sub and the speakers be reproducing the same lower-frequency signals. In my system, I don't hear much low frequency bass from the Maggies, so there isn't much interference between the sub and the mains if the sub output is below 60Hz or so.) Is there anything wrong with that approach, or with using a Y-connector? Could someone answer the above question about using an interconnect Y-connector? I'm about to try it, but I don't want to mess up my system. ? Asked and answered. A y-connector cannot affect phase or impedance or level or frequency.....................unless it is broken. As for not rolling off the bass from the Maggies when you use a sub, the only down side is that you can get higher output from Maggie and main amp if you do. Despite the low output below 60Hz, the amp and the Maggies are still driven at those frequencies. That, among other things, is the disadvantage of not using a real crossover. Kal |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
... These are the classic questions that every thinking person debates. First, I am more positive about the ability of Audyssey and similar EQs and would not avoid its use, regardless of the number of channels being played or the source. After all, the room's acoustics and the speakers are constants. Second, I would avoid using the volume control on the Oppo as it will truncate the bitstream as you attenuate. Third, Y-cables are entirely benign as long as the connections are secure. Fourth, the bass management facilities on the Oppo are extremely limited and the ones on the NAD are vastly superior. That alone suggests the use of digital, rather than analog, connections between them. Fifth, instead of listening to the opinions of others (including me) about subjective preferences, I suggest you connect it all up the standard digital (and easy) way and live with it for a while. Then, experiment with your many options to decide what you like best. Kal Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I'm not clear regarding your statement that attenuating the output of the player with the player's volume control will truncate the bitstream. - (For one thing, the NAD unit doesn't decode DSD in bitstream form, so I may be using an LPCM output from the player.) - Does the Oppo volume control alter the initial bitstream? I'm thinking that a moderate amount of control might be OK, since the Oppo instructions didn't mention any truncating problems. In any event, I'll follow your suggstion to try the various settings and see which I like. The player is presently connected to the NAD unit with an HDMI cable, which permits several adjustments of the processing modes. Jim Jim |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. The only reason that the Oppo has this feature is to allow it to play SACD-layer only discs. Your Sony, OTOH, up-samples regular CD to DSD. I think you'll be losing whatever advantage you find in SACD. Now, there's no doubt that the Oppo is a nice unit - especially for video, and it is very flexible, sort of a Swiss army knife of little silver disc players, but it is not a true SACD player by any stretch of the imagination. This was confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. Actually, the Oppo (the BDP-83 and their 980) are among the few players capable of transmitting DSP to a pre/pro or AVR in raw bitsream format (with no internal conversion to or from PCM). Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. Jim |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On May 30, 9:15*pm, Sonnova wrote:
You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. The only reason that the Oppo has this feature is to allow it to play SACD-layer only discs. Your Sony, OTOH, up-samples regular CD to DSD. I think you'll be losing whatever advantage you find in SACD. Now, there's no doubt that the Oppo is a nice unit - especially for video, and it is very flexible, sort of a Swiss army knife of little silver disc players, but it is not a true SACD player by any stretch of the imagination. This was confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. I must be missing something... If you're using HDMI to connect the Oppo to the pre-pro, you should be able to send DSD just fine. I can't test this in my setup, but it seems to be clearly documented in the BDP-83 Owner's Manual and the unofficial FAQ. From the manual: "SACD Output: To select audio output format for SACD. The options a "• PCM – SACD Direct Stream Digital (DSD) data is converted into multi- channel, high- resolution PCM data. The converted PCM data is then output through HDMI or the internal DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) for the analog audio output ports. If you use a receiver that supports HDMI v1.1 to listen to SACD, please select this option. You may also want to select this option if you prefer the sound quality of the DSD-to-PCM conversion. "• DSD – SACD DSD data is output over HDMI without any conversion. For the analog audio outputs, DSD data is converted into analog signal directly by the internal DAC. If you use a receiver that supports HDMI v1.2a with DSD over HDMI, or you prefer the sound quality of straight DSD to analog, please select this option." From the FAQ: "DSD over HDMI is a direct bitstream of an SACD Direct-Stream Digital format to your receiver. In order to use this feature you must have a receive or processor that can decode DSD. "When the player is set to output DSD for SACD, the analog outputs will also output a direct DSD-to-analog conversion. "In both the above samples, you avoid a DSD-to-PCM conversion in the player. Setting the player for PCM output for SACD will output PCM over HDMI and also cause a DSD-to-PCM-to-analog conversion over analog outputs, which some people feel degrades the audio quality." George |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
Sonnova writes:
On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. I don't think so: according to the Oppo web page, it supports full multi-channel SACD audio, which is surely the main advantage of SACD. It does seem a bit odd to downsample to 44.1k, though. I wonder why they do it? Still, as long as they do the downsampling properly it'll be OK. The only reason that the Oppo has this feature is to allow it to play SACD-layer only discs. Your Sony, OTOH, up-samples regular CD to DSD. That's what all single-bit sigma-delta DACs do. Mind you, even cheap DACs often seem to use mutibit conversion these days. I think you'll be losing whatever advantage you find in SACD. Now, there's no doubt that the Oppo is a nice unit - especially for video, and it is very flexible, sort of a Swiss army knife of little silver disc players, but it is not a true SACD player by any stretch of the imagination. Well, it plays SACDs in full multi-channel. Andrew. |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:19:37 -0700, Jim Cate wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. The only reason that the Oppo has this feature is to allow it to play SACD-layer only discs. Your Sony, OTOH, up-samples regular CD to DSD. I think you'll be losing whatever advantage you find in SACD. Now, there's no doubt that the Oppo is a nice unit - especially for video, and it is very flexible, sort of a Swiss army knife of little silver disc players, but it is not a true SACD player by any stretch of the imagination. This was confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. Actually, the Oppo (the BDP-83 and their 980) are among the few players capable of transmitting DSP to a pre/pro or AVR in raw bitsream format (with no internal conversion to or from PCM). If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Why anyone would prefer this to a real SACD player I cannot fathom. IOW, if one is going to convert to 16/44.1, the entire reason for the "high-resolution" format is lost. Might as well play the regular CD layer that almost all modern SACD releases contain. Jim |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On 1 Jun 2009 03:39:19 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Many preamp/processors will do this. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Why anyone would prefer this to a real SACD player I cannot fathom. IOW, if one is going to convert to 16/44.1, the entire reason for the "high-resolution" format is lost. Might as well play the regular CD layer that almost all modern SACD releases contain. Who said it converts ot 16/44.1? The internal conversion to PCM is at high resolution for output/decoding via analog or directly via HDMI. In the latter case, some systems work better with a DSD-PCM conversion in the player/transport. I think you are being too doctrinairre in presuming any one option must be superior without any first-hand experience. Kal |
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On 1 Jun 2009 03:40:18 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:48:48 -0700, wrote (in article ): "DSD over HDMI is a direct bitstream of an SACD Direct-Stream Digital format to your receiver. In order to use this feature you must have a receive or processor that can decode DSD. Do you know of any such receiver or processor? Many AVRs and several preamp/processors. Kal |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:19:37 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. Actually, the Oppo (the BDP-83 and their 980) are among the few players capable of transmitting DSP to a pre/pro or AVR in raw bitsream format (with no internal conversion to or from PCM). If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Certainly. Happy to do so. - Those included with the Integra DAC9.9, the Denon 1909, the Onkyo TX-SR606, 605;, 706, 806, 875, and several others. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Wrong again! Whereas it does have the capability to convert SACD to PCM internally, it doesn't do so unless that's what's desired (and unless it is set to do so). In it's bitstream mode, it doesn't "convert" it at all. Instead, it transmits the digital DSD signal in raw bistream format to the pre/pro or receiver. Jim |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:52:20 -0700, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 1 Jun 2009 03:39:19 GMT, Sonnova wrote: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Many preamp/processors will do this. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Why anyone would prefer this to a real SACD player I cannot fathom. IOW, if one is going to convert to 16/44.1, the entire reason for the "high-resolution" format is lost. Might as well play the regular CD layer that almost all modern SACD releases contain. Who said it converts ot 16/44.1? OPPO The internal conversion to PCM is at high resolution for output/decoding via analog or directly via HDMI. In the latter case, some systems work better with a DSD-PCM conversion in the player/transport. I think you are being too doctrinairre in presuming any one option must be superior without any first-hand experience. Kal Look, you do what you want, but I wouldn't want a SACD player that converted the DSD stream into another format before converting it to analog. I was merely making sure that the OP understood what he was buying. If he likes that fine, but at least he's going into the deal KNOWING what he's buying, if he didn't before I posted. It's certainly no skin off my nose. Just trying to be the Good Audio Samaritan, here. |
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#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On 2 Jun 2009 15:17:28 GMT, Sonnova
wrote: On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:52:20 -0700, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 1 Jun 2009 03:39:19 GMT, Sonnova wrote: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Many preamp/processors will do this. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Why anyone would prefer this to a real SACD player I cannot fathom. IOW, if one is going to convert to 16/44.1, the entire reason for the "high-resolution" format is lost. Might as well play the regular CD layer that almost all modern SACD releases contain. Who said it converts ot 16/44.1? OPPO Can you provide a reference for the conversion to 16/44.1? The optional PCM conversion is documented. Kal |
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 02:25:27 -0700, Jim Cate wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:19:37 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): confirmed to me by the technical marketing guy at Oppo. Actually, the Oppo (the BDP-83 and their 980) are among the few players capable of transmitting DSP to a pre/pro or AVR in raw bitsream format (with no internal conversion to or from PCM). If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Certainly. Happy to do so. - Those included with the Integra DAC9.9, the Denon 1909, the Onkyo TX-SR606, 605;, 706, 806, 875, and several others. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Wrong again! Whereas it does have the capability to convert SACD to PCM internally, it doesn't do so unless that's what's desired (and unless it is set to do so). In it's bitstream mode, it doesn't "convert" it at all. Instead, it transmits the digital DSD signal in raw bistream format to the pre/pro or receiver. Jim Sigh. I understand all of that. My point is that the player itself is NOT a real SACD player. It will output a raw DSD data stream (to be decoded by an outboard DSD processor) or output audio from a DSD stream that's been converted to PCM before being converted to analog. Either way, it doesn't actually "play" SACDs like the Sonys, the Marantzes and many other SACD players do. |
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#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 03:22:49 -0700, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 2 Jun 2009 15:17:28 GMT, Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:52:20 -0700, Kalman Rubinson wrote (in article ): On 1 Jun 2009 03:39:19 GMT, Sonnova wrote: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that these Oppos output a DSD stream to an outboard DSD D-to-A converter? If so, do you know of any such converter (other than the rather costly pro encoder/decoder models from Korg or TASCAM)? Many preamp/processors will do this. Alternatively, they can convert it to LPCM internally, which some reviewers and listeners seem to prefer. - Perhaps you misunderstood the comments of the "marketing guy" at Oppo. No. That's exactly what I said. The unit itself does not have a true DSD D-to-A converter in it. It plays SACDs after, internally, converting them to PCM. Why anyone would prefer this to a real SACD player I cannot fathom. IOW, if one is going to convert to 16/44.1, the entire reason for the "high-resolution" format is lost. Might as well play the regular CD layer that almost all modern SACD releases contain. Who said it converts ot 16/44.1? OPPO Can you provide a reference for the conversion to 16/44.1? The optional PCM conversion is documented. Kal No, this is what the Technical Marketing person at Oppo told me a year or so ago when I interviewed him for an article. Oppo is located in the same town where I live and I've been over there several times. |
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#20
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bass management, DSP, Y-connectors
Andrew Haley wrote:
Sonnova writes: On Fri, 29 May 2009 21:52:15 -0700, Jim Cate wrote (in article ): I'm in the process of setting up a new BD player (the Oppo BDP-83) which has CD and stereo and MC SACD and CD capabilities, to a pre/processor (NAD-175) and a 1080p video projector (Sanyo Z3000). The NAD pre/pro and the Oppo player seem to have decent audio, so I plan to try using them for both audio and video. The Oppo player would replace an older Sony ES DVP-S9000ES that I have been using for CD and SACD stereo playback. You are aware, are you not, that the Oppo turns the DSD signal from an SACD into 16-bit/44KHz PCM are you not? In other words, it PLAYS SACD discs but it turns them into regular CDs. You might as well play the CD layer on the SACD in the first place. I don't think so: according to the Oppo web page, it supports full multi-channel SACD audio, which is surely the main advantage of SACD. You are correct. Some Oppos can output 'pure' DSD-to-analog (assuming no DSP is activated), as well as DSD as bitstream to an AVR that decodes DSD. It does seem a bit odd to downsample to 44.1k, though. I wonder why they do it? Still, as long as they do the downsampling properly it'll be OK. When Oppos DO convert to PCM, it is to 88.2/24 bit, not 26/44, unless they have changed their design philosophy since the old 970HD. -- -S We have it in our power to begin the world over again - Thomas Paine |
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