[[email protected]]

On Apr 30, 3:58*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:55:34 -0700, Walt wrote
(in article ):
Mostly agree, with two caveats:

1) Amplifiers *do* sound different when pushed to
their limits.

2) I'm willing to entertain the possibility that there are subtle
differences between amplifiers that may be ascertained by
carefully controlled listening tests. *

It is possible that due to differences in components that
there are small differences in the sound of amplifiers or
preamps. However, these differences are tiny and don't
really mean anything significant.

It's also possible that the gentlemen above speaks of
amplifiers that can have very real and LARGE differences
in sound when combined with different speakers. SET
amplifiers generally have quite high output impedances,
on the order of several ohms in some cases. That large
an output impedance, combined with the very real and
large frequency-dependent load impedance presented
by nearly every speaker in existance, turns the combination
into, essentially, a fixed tone control.

For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.

[Sonnova]

On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

On Apr 30, 3:58*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:55:34 -0700, Walt wrote
(in article ):
Mostly agree, with two caveats:

1) Amplifiers *do* sound different when pushed to
their limits.

2) I'm willing to entertain the possibility that there are subtle
differences between amplifiers that may be ascertained by
carefully controlled listening tests. *

It is possible that due to differences in components that
there are small differences in the sound of amplifiers or
preamps. However, these differences are tiny and don't
really mean anything significant.

It's also possible that the gentlemen above speaks of
amplifiers that can have very real and LARGE differences
in sound when combined with different speakers. SET
amplifiers generally have quite high output impedances,
on the order of several ohms in some cases. That large
an output impedance, combined with the very real and
large frequency-dependent load impedance presented
by nearly every speaker in existance, turns the combination
into, essentially, a fixed tone control.

For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.


While anything is possible and certainly, there are exceptions to every
"rule", unless the gentleman in question is more specific in his comments, I
have to conclude that he's talking about modern, mainstream push-pull amps of
either the tube or the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs with high
output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances
and then, I might agree with him.

[[email protected]]

On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote
For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.

While anything is possible and certainly, there are
exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in
question is more specific in his comments, I have
to conclude that he's talking about modern,
mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or
the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances
and then, I might agree with him.

Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5
posts back in this particular branch of this
particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found
to be saying::

"With a big SET amplifier like the one I have
driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely
wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new
version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown
here http://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm).
With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is
sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely
detailed."

I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other
things, I am unable to find anything that could
be mistaken as " modern, mainstream push-
pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state
variety.

Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.

[Hans Kruse]

wrote in message
...

Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5
posts back in this particular branch of this
particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found
to be saying::

"With a big SET amplifier like the one I have
driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely
wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new
version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown
here http://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm).
With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is
sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely
detailed."

I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other
things, I am unable to find anything that could
be mistaken as " modern, mainstream push-
pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state
variety.

Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.

Thanks you! The Lowther units in the Teresonic speakers do not an amplifier
that has more output in the low end. The speakers themselves are designed to
have output down to about 30Hz, but it is a rather dry bass unless the
amplifier gives some help. The Audio Note OTO SE tube amplifier (
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...to_se_01.shtml ) does
give a nice bass output but it is not as good as the 211 based amplifier.
The sound stage precision and transparency of the sound with the 211 amp.
compared to the AN is also better. It is simply quite a bit more pleasant to
listen to. This is not based on double blind testing or even A/B testing as
I don't have a setup that allows that. I have heard many amplifiers with
these types of speakers and they have sounded quite different. I have also
heard differences based on the power source which may be controversial to
come people. Wrt. the increase of bass by the 211 amp. I have tried to
increase the bass on a ripped CD and burned it to a CD and played it back
through the AN amp. but it does not sound as good as the 211 based amp. on
the original CD (btw. I don't hear any difference between an origianl CD and
one that is burned from a ripping of the original CD as I know some people
will claim there is. If there is, I don't hear it). The 211 amp. have large
Lundall output transformers and is built on a minimal principle of as few
components as possible and with direct connections. The design philosophy is
similar to the very pricy Ongako amp. from Audio Note
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...ngaku_01.shtml.

--
Med venlig hilsen/Kind regards,
Hans Kruse www.hanskrusephotography.com, www.hanskruse.com

[[email protected]]

On May 2, 5:09*pm, "Hans Kruse" wrote:
wrote in message
Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.

Thanks you! The Lowther units in the Teresonic
speakers do not an amplifier that has more output
in the low end. The speakers themselves are
designed to have output down to about 30Hz, but
it is a rather dry bass unless the amplifier gives
some help.

Hans, I think you are missing the basic premise of
my post. I am merely pointing out that you were
the one that made the post. I am not advocating or
endorsing your choice of amplifiers and speakers.
The results may be something you really like, and
there's no arguing with that. It's not something I
would advocate any of my clients engage in.

The simple technical and physically irrefutable fact
is that the current modern generations of single-
ended, low- or no-global feedback tube amplifiers
all suffer from a common technical problem:
comparatively high output impedance, proximal,
in fact, to that of the load itsel f.

The result is that these amplifiers in combination
with pretty much ANY speaker is a system with
a big fixed tone control. That one has more bass
than another is not the least bit surprising: it's
a significant frequency response deviation
because of the high output impedance of the
amp and the frequency dependent impedance
variations of the speaker.

There are those that suggest that if you WANT
those kinds of frequency response variations,
an amplifier with an anomolously high output
impedance is the wrong way to do it.

[Sonnova]

On Fri, 1 May 2009 18:25:55 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote
For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.

While anything is possible and certainly, there are
exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in
question is more specific in his comments, I have
to conclude that he's talking about modern,
mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or
the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances
and then, I might agree with him.

Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5
posts back in this particular branch of this
particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found
to be saying::

"With a big SET amplifier like the one I have
driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely
wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new
version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown
here http://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm).
With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is
sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely
detailed."

I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other
things, I am unable to find anything that could
be mistaken as " modern, mainstream push-
pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state
variety.

Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.


I did not see the earlier post as being connected with the OP's statement
about amplifiers having a "sound" And, I stand by my statement that "if an
amp has a sound that is statistically quantifiable, it is because the amp in
question is either defective or flawed." (or words to that effect). I say
that because, IMHO, SETs are seriously wrongheaded designs which have a
"sound" because they are very colored devices.

[[email protected]]

On May 3, 11:10*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 18:25:55 -0700, wrote
(in article ):



On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote
For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.

While anything is possible and certainly, there are
exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in
question is more specific in his comments, I have
to conclude that he's talking about modern,
mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or
the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances
and then, I might agree with him.

Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5
posts back in this particular branch of this
particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found
to be saying::

* "With a big SET amplifier like the one I have
* driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely
* wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new
* version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown
* herehttp://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm).
* With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is
* sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely
* detailed."

I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other
things, I am unable to find anything that could
be mistaken as " modern, *mainstream push-
pull amps of either the tube or *the solid-state
variety.

Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
*with high output impedances, then he should
*specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.

I did not see the earlier post as being connected
with the OP's *statement about amplifiers having
a "sound" *

Curious, because you now state that they do
have a sound, so I am not sure where your
disconnect is.

And, I stand by my statement that "if
an amp has a sound that is statistically
quantifiable, it is because the amp in
question is either defective or flawed."

I am not arguing with that point at all.

(or words to that effect). I say that because,
IMHO, SETs are seriously wrongheaded
designs which have a "sound" because they
are very colored devices.

Again, no argument.

It's possible that SETs have the rather minuscule
following that they do because they provide tone
controls for those audiophiles who don't like
tone controls. Or something like that.

[Sonnova]

On Sun, 3 May 2009 10:49:37 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

On May 3, 11:10*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 18:25:55 -0700, wrote
(in article ):



On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote
For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance
amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from
4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass
(certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a
nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency
where it's going to do the most good (or harm,
as the case may be): the low frequency resonance
of the system.

If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at
the crossover frequency, near the range where the
ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that
tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this
case.

While anything is possible and certainly, there are
exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in
question is more specific in his comments, I have
to conclude that he's talking about modern,
mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or
the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs
with high output impedances, then he should
specify SETs with high output impedances
and then, I might agree with him.

Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5
posts back in this particular branch of this
particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found
to be saying::

* "With a big SET amplifier like the one I have
* driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely
* wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new
* version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown
* herehttp://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm).
* With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is
* sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely
* detailed."

I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other
things, I am unable to find anything that could
be mistaken as " modern, *mainstream push-
pull amps of either the tube or *the solid-state
variety.

Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs
*with high output impedances, then he should
*specify SETs with high output impedances,"
he seemed to have met your requirements to
the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of
a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT
have high output impedance.

I did not see the earlier post as being connected
with the OP's *statement about amplifiers having
a "sound" *

Curious, because you now state that they do
have a sound, so I am not sure where your
disconnect is.

The disconnect is that when I think or talk about amplifiers, I'm not
thinking or talking about SETs. I realize that they exist, but feel that they
lie outside of the cannon of traditional audiophilia.

And, I stand by my statement that "if
an amp has a sound that is statistically
quantifiable, it is because the amp in
question is either defective or flawed."

I am not arguing with that point at all.

(or words to that effect). I say that because,
IMHO, SETs are seriously wrongheaded
designs which have a "sound" because they
are very colored devices.

Again, no argument.

It's possible that SETs have the rather minuscule
following that they do because they provide tone
controls for those audiophiles who don't like
tone controls. Or something like that.

Absolutely. I have heard some very pleasant SET ensembles at audio shows and
the like, but believe me they were pleasant because the speakers through
which they played were very carefully chosen to match the amps well in that
particular demonstration. I once had a pair of Ongoku (SP?) SETs costing many
thousands of dollars each sent to me for review. I couldn't make them work
with any speakers I had in the house, so I sent them back - unreviewed.
Life's too short......

[Hans Kruse]

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

Absolutely. I have heard some very pleasant SET ensembles at audio shows
and
the like, but believe me they were pleasant because the speakers through
which they played were very carefully chosen to match the amps well in
that
particular demonstration. I once had a pair of Ongoku (SP?) SETs costing
many
thousands of dollars each sent to me for review. I couldn't make them work
with any speakers I had in the house, so I sent them back - unreviewed.

The Audio Note Ongaku is an intergrated amplifier built on similar
principles as the Teresonic 211 amp.
The Ongaku seemed to work very well with the Audio Note AN-E speakers as
reported here http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/...means_ecstasy/.
Here is a picture of the Teresonic 211 amp.
http://www.pbase.com/hkruse/image/106014541/original.

Life's too short......

Where can I read your reviews?

--
Med venlig hilsen/Kind regards,
Hans Kruse www.hanskrusephotography.com, www.hanskruse.com

[Sonnova]

On Mon, 4 May 2009 08:05:10 -0700, Hans Kruse wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

Absolutely. I have heard some very pleasant SET ensembles at audio shows
and
the like, but believe me they were pleasant because the speakers through
which they played were very carefully chosen to match the amps well in
that
particular demonstration. I once had a pair of Ongoku (SP?) SETs costing
many
thousands of dollars each sent to me for review. I couldn't make them work
with any speakers I had in the house, so I sent them back - unreviewed.

The Audio Note Ongaku is an intergrated amplifier built on similar
principles as the Teresonic 211 amp.
The Ongaku seemed to work very well with the Audio Note AN-E speakers as
reported here http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/...means_ecstasy/.
Here is a picture of the Teresonic 211 amp.
http://www.pbase.com/hkruse/image/106014541/original.

Life's too short......

Where can I read your reviews?



There are a bunch of them on Stereophile's web site archives, but they are 20
years old and older and mostly irrelevant now.

[hevnlysnd]

Originally Posted by fp

The speakers I'm looking for will be used in the living room. I listen
to artists like John Mayer and bands like Coldplay.

Hi although I am a newbie to this site I am not to others. I would definitely consider for electrostatics the new Beveridge model 2 tranducers, and for mostly conventional drivers Von Schweikert VR-9s or even a pair of VR-11s.
Of course your sources and your driving electronics will have to be of the same caliber(Audio Research suggested for the Beveridges and spectron for the Von Schweikerts suggested).

Hope this helps

great listening