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Ignace Dhont
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

I am just amazed that there doesn't seem to be ANY book with ANY
in-depth info on things like mixing techniques. At my local bookstore
the audio books all hold the same basic info like "use a pop shield
when recording vocals (..)".

There are several technical audio books like the "Handbook of Sound
Engineers" (Ballou) that are good but I'm not very interested in the
technical side of the story.

So, please could anyone recommend me some books or internet articles
that holds info that goes deeper than level 1. For example, I'm
already aware that it takes more than a panpot to create a stereo
image, but detailled info on how to go about is nowhere to be found..

Thanks in advance,

Ignace

For starters here are a couple of books I found I liked:
Master Handbook of Acoustics (Alton Everest) – easy to read and
understand.
Project Studios (Philip Newell) – a good place to start.
Mastering Audio (Bob Katz) – about.. mastering. Have just started
reading, but looks interesting.
The Art of Recording (William Moylan) – this one is about ear
training, dry to read but with interesting info.
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Ignace Dhont
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Have to admit you make some good points there. Maybe I should call
myself a producer (but it sounds so posh). Still, I don't see why
every sound engineer should have to re-invent the wheel. We should be
able to build on what our pre-decessors have found, if music recording
is to advance.

To make an exaggeration: there's a little trick with the sidechain to
to de-es vocals. Only nobody writes or tells about it, so every new
sound engineer must waste time and find it out for themselves.

Of course, everybody knows this one; I'm just trying to make a point
here that every new sound engineer must virtually start from scratch,
because there's no serious copy on mixing technique, microphone
placement and so. Only shedloads of basic books about homerecording.
And audio colleges are not much better.

Regards,

Ignace


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Steven Sena
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Mixing is like making love to a beautiful woman, it's what the moment calls
for...

--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com
"Ignace Dhont" wrote in message
om...
I am just amazed that there doesn't seem to be ANY book with ANY
in-depth info on things like mixing techniques. At my local bookstore
the audio books all hold the same basic info like "use a pop shield
when recording vocals (..)".

There are several technical audio books like the "Handbook of Sound
Engineers" (Ballou) that are good but I'm not very interested in the
technical side of the story.

So, please could anyone recommend me some books or internet articles
that holds info that goes deeper than level 1. For example, I'm
already aware that it takes more than a panpot to create a stereo
image, but detailled info on how to go about is nowhere to be found..

Thanks in advance,

Ignace

For starters here are a couple of books I found I liked:
Master Handbook of Acoustics (Alton Everest) - easy to read and
understand.
Project Studios (Philip Newell) - a good place to start.
Mastering Audio (Bob Katz) - about.. mastering. Have just started
reading, but looks interesting.
The Art of Recording (William Moylan) - this one is about ear
training, dry to read but with interesting info.



  #8   Report Post  
Tommi
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?


"Ignace Dhont" wrote in message
om...
I am just amazed that there doesn't seem to be ANY book with ANY
in-depth info on things like mixing techniques. At my local bookstore
the audio books all hold the same basic info like "use a pop shield
when recording vocals (..)".


There are, I think you're just over-reacting and denying the fact that you
cannot learn to mix by reading those books alone.

There are several technical audio books like the "Handbook of Sound
Engineers" (Ballou) that are good but I'm not very interested in the
technical side of the story.


So you're not interested in "the technical side", does this mean something
like that you're interested in getting a good sound from your guitar and
love all kinds of effects, but you're not interested in knowing how a
condenser microphone exactly works or how FIR filters are made etc?

If so, you really have to accept that a book can tell you why it's wise to
pan the bass drum center, but it can't tell you why it sounds good when you
put heckloads of reverb into it..

Books are more useful when learning about the technical aspects of audio.
They are a bit less useful if your goal is to become a good mixing engineer
without knowing much about the "boring", technical stuff.

So, please could anyone recommend me some books or internet articles
that holds info that goes deeper than level 1. For example, I'm
already aware that it takes more than a panpot to create a stereo
image, but detailled info on how to go about is nowhere to be found..


I'll bet that every single book you've read about mixing says: "there are no
strict rules to mixing. However here are a couple of helpful pointers.."

And then you'll go "c'mon, I already know that there are no rules, that's
like so..old, man", but it's true!

I'd say get Howard Massey's "behind the glass".




  #9   Report Post  
ulysses
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

"Steven Sena" wrote:
Mixing is like making love to a beautiful woman, it's what the moment calls
for...



A lot of times, she ain't that beautiful.

ulysses

  #10   Report Post  
ulysses
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

So you want books that are in-depth, but not technical? Imagine if you were a
dentist with the same approach. You want to learn how to fill cavities, but
you don't want to know the boring technical details about teeth or anaesthetics
or any of that hokum. You want to be a racecar driver, but you don't care how
cars work. Sorry, but the devil's in the details. It's the pit crew that wins
races, just like it's the technically aware engineer who makes great
recordings. If you want to intuitively understand how to use the gear and how
best to connect it all together, then you must intuitively understand how it
works and what it's doing. You have to understand WHY you don't get good
results plugging a hi-Z instrument directly into a low-Z mike preamp if you
want to apply that knowledge to a wider ranger of applications. Otherwise
you're just painting by numbers. You want a book that tells you where to set
the knobs on your equalizer? The author of the book hasn't heard the recording
on which you're working, so the best he can tell you is what those knobs do. A
"shallow" description might tell you that one picks a frequency and one boosts
or cuts it. But if that's all you know, you'll be really frustrated when you
go to use an actual equalizer and it doesn't behave like you thought it would.
A more in-depth description of what the EQ's knobs do will get into the
technical details about bandwidth and Q and the limitations of the circuitry
(op amp slew rate, inductor saturation, etc) so you'll understand why and how,
under some circumstances, the EQ reacts differently than you might have
expected. Now you can expect what it will actually do, and you can anticipate
when that reaction will be a hindrance and when it will make you wet yourself.
Aside from technical knowledge, what you need for learning practical recording
techniques isn't a book but a mentor. Everybody doesn't have to reinvent the
wheel as you suggets because most engineers have historically gotten their
start in a studio under the wing of a more experienced engineer. Now that
system has kind of fallen apart since we're talking about thousands of new
engineers recording in their homes, but luckily we have forums like this one to
get old old guys and the young kids together to exchange ideas. You can teach
Mike Rivers about all this new computer stuff and he'll teach you how to set up
an EQ on a compressor sidechain. It'll work out fine.

ulysses


(Ignace Dhont) wrote:
I am just amazed that there doesn't seem to be ANY book with ANY
in-depth info on things like mixing techniques. At my local bookstore
the audio books all hold the same basic info like "use a pop shield
when recording vocals (..)".

There are several technical audio books like the "Handbook of Sound
Engineers" (Ballou) that are good but I'm not very interested in the
technical side of the story.

So, please could anyone recommend me some books or internet articles
that holds info that goes deeper than level 1. For example, I'm
already aware that it takes more than a panpot to create a stereo
image, but detailled info on how to go about is nowhere to be found..

Thanks in advance,

Ignace

For starters here are a couple of books I found I liked:
Master Handbook of Acoustics (Alton Everest) – easy to read and
understand.
Project Studios (Philip Newell) – a good place to start.
Mastering Audio (Bob Katz) – about.. mastering. Have just started
reading, but looks interesting.
The Art of Recording (William Moylan) – this one is about ear
training, dry to read but with interesting info.




  #11   Report Post  
hollywood_steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

(Ignace Dhont) wrote in message . com...
Have to admit you make some good points there. Maybe I should call
myself a producer (but it sounds so posh). Still, I don't see why
every sound engineer should have to re-invent the wheel. We should be
able to build on what our pre-decessors have found, if music recording
is to advance.



No one said you had to reinvent the past 100 years of basic
electronics, but how the hell do you think that you are gonna "build
on what our pre-decessors have found" if you do not fully understand
what they learned? The cliche is true, you gotta know the rules
before you can break 'em. If you have any interest in pursuing the
engineering side of things, you need to understand that "technical
side of the story." If you don't see why you'll need it now, you
will later.

And that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of detailed texts on the
application side of things. The Mixing Engineer's Handbook and the
Mastering Engineer's Handbook are just two books packed with the sort
of inside tips you are looking for. And there are many far more
advanced books on mic technique, stereo recording, location recording,
etc., just waiting for anyone with a Visa card. You just need to move
beyond the obvious sources. I just moved into a new space last month
and I filled a 6FT tall bookcase with NOTHING but pro audio related
books. One of these days I hope to put up a list of my favorites on
my website, but the move has got me way behind on my work. But at
least half of those books are tech related, so you don't seem like
you'd be interested........


steve


Lexington 125
www.lexington125.com
  #12   Report Post  
Mike
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

(Ignace Dhont) wrote in message . com...
Have to admit you make some good points there. Maybe I should call
myself a producer (but it sounds so posh). Still, I don't see why
every sound engineer should have to re-invent the wheel. We should be
able to build on what our pre-decessors have found, if music recording
is to advance.

To make an exaggeration: there's a little trick with the sidechain to
to de-es vocals. Only nobody writes or tells about it, so every new
sound engineer must waste time and find it out for themselves.

Of course, everybody knows this one; I'm just trying to make a point
here that every new sound engineer must virtually start from scratch,
because there's no serious copy on mixing technique, microphone
placement and so. Only shedloads of basic books about homerecording.
And audio colleges are not much better.

Regards,


I use to subscribe to Recording Magazine, which I think was once "Home
and Studio Recording" and they always had a section called "Tips and
Tricks." You can order back issues from them or start subscribing. I
think it is just what you are looking for. I think you can get indices
of the issues and then order once of particular interest to you. I am
sure a magazine like "Electronic Musician" includes similar types of
articles. I always found EM the most useful overall because it had a
broader scope the Recording but Recording is very good as well.

Mike
http://www.mmeproductions.com
Ignace

  #13   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

ulysses wrote:

"Steven Sena" wrote:


Mixing is like making love to a beautiful woman, it's what the moment calls
for...


A lot of times, she ain't that beautiful.


She might still have her moments.

--
ha
  #14   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Ignace Dhont wrote:

To make an exaggeration: there's a little trick with the sidechain to
to de-es vocals. Only nobody writes or tells about it, so every new
sound engineer must waste time and find it out for themselves.


Or ask Google...

It's been RAPped right down a few times in my sight.

I think using one's time to learn a craft is an ancient human concept,
worthy of practice. Nobody is going to learn _how to mix_ from a book.
Reading a sex how-to manual won't make one a fine lover; practice,
investigation and personal effort are necessary for one's education. A
book can show where are all the parts and descrive what might be done
with and to them, but it won't tell you when whatever is a good or bad
ideal.

--
ha
  #15   Report Post  
S O'Neill
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

hank alrich wrote:
Ignace Dhont wrote:



To make an exaggeration: there's a little trick with the sidechain to
to de-es vocals. Only nobody writes or tells about it, so every new
sound engineer must waste time and find it out for themselves.



Or ask Google...

It's been RAPped right down a few times in my sight.


And I've seen it in at least half my compressors' owners' manuals.



  #16   Report Post  
Ignace Dhont
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Thanks for everyone's reply, especially those giving some hope of
obtaining useful information. I can understand some of the other
reactions, I probably am over-reacting.
Still it's frustrating that I come across plenty of good info on the
technical side of things, but very little serious information on
essentials like mixing technique's and mic placement. I want to use
the equipment, not built it. Indeed, I am not really interested how
the power supply of my compressor works.

Would have been great to get a job in a decent studio and have an old
master show you all he's learnt!! I'll have to settle on hunting down
back issues of magazines that hopefully have more professional content
then the ones I'm acquainted with like SoundOnSound, Mix magazine and
so (thanks for the tip Mike).

Apart from learning in practise, I also enjoy studying a bit and
learning from others. But there is nothing to read. All the books I've
seen carry the same very basic home recording info. Well, maybe some
tips I got prove to be good. Hope so.

Thanks& best wishes,

Ignace
  #17   Report Post  
Roger Carlson
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Yet she wants her $300 for the hour...



ulysses wrote in message ...
"Steven Sena" wrote:
Mixing is like making love to a beautiful woman, it's what the moment calls
for...



A lot of times, she ain't that beautiful.

ulysses

  #18   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Ignace Dhont wrote:

Still it's frustrating that I come across plenty of good info on the
technical side of things, but very little serious information on
essentials like mixing technique's and mic placement. I want to use
the equipment, not built it.


The thing is that technical information can be communicated precisely,
whereas esthetic information cannot. One may describe a process for
positioning a mic in a given situation, but that description _will not
tell you where to put the mic_. You follow the described process until
_you hear what you're after_. _What you're after_ cannot be described
well at all. Hence, the need to get your own personal experience.

--
ha
  #19   Report Post  
Ignace Dhont
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Had a good look on Amazone and ordered some books (including the
Mixing Engineer's Handbook). Hoping for some real info.

The posters that commented that the de-ess trick was already
well-known (..) obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say.
Of course everyone knows it, that's why I used it as an example. Guess
I'll have to express myself more clearly in the future, this
misunderstanding was kinda embarassing for myself and the posters.

But if someone would like to explain for instance how to position a
sound in a virtual 3D room using delay and equalizing techniques I'm
all ears. Anyone? The old panpot and reverb sounds sooo flat..

Regards,

Ignace
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Tommi
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?


"Ignace Dhont" wrote in message
om...
Had a good look on Amazone and ordered some books (including the
Mixing Engineer's Handbook). Hoping for some real info.

The posters that commented that the de-ess trick was already
well-known (..) obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say.
Of course everyone knows it, that's why I used it as an example. Guess
I'll have to express myself more clearly in the future, this
misunderstanding was kinda embarassing for myself and the posters.

But if someone would like to explain for instance how to position a
sound in a virtual 3D room using delay and equalizing techniques I'm
all ears. Anyone? The old panpot and reverb sounds sooo flat..


Hey, I thought you already understood that mic placement and the mixing
process don't have any serious "laws" like science does.
It's easy to read science from a book, but don't limit your vision to
copying other old, heard, "scientifically proven" mixing tricks..
I could give you 40 ways of recording a stereo guitar track and "prove" each
one's greatness over another with massive amounts of babbling about phase,
proximity effect, guitar resonances and so on, but what would that be good
for?
Forget the subharmonic saw waves gated by the kick drum, the eq sidechain
de-essers, the 10-30 ms predelays on the stereo reverb of a snare, the gated
rock reverbs, the compressed subgroups and so on!

Mixing is not about that. It's about what sounds good for the ear and is
based on a couple of simple things like the critical frequency bands of our
ear etc.
You have to know the basic technical issues, but I think it'd be better for
you to learn those technical issues from a book, and realise that there
really is no "THE guitar tone in the world", it all depends on the context.
Or the current "trend" in music, which basically means everyone's stuck to
the same routines like "ooh, let's put a 16th delay on the vocals, it sounds
so much better than the -93 reverb"...Used trick are already used tricks
which everyone recycles, sometimes without any thought.





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Scott Dorsey
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

Ignace Dhont wrote:

But if someone would like to explain for instance how to position a
sound in a virtual 3D room using delay and equalizing techniques I'm
all ears. Anyone? The old panpot and reverb sounds sooo flat..


Yes, it does. There is no virtual 3D room. If you want a real sense
of space, you have to track in a real room with stereo miking that gives
you a real sense of space.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #23   Report Post  
Ignace Dhont
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?

You need to read Total Recording by David Moulton. Better plan on
about a year to go through it.

Why do I have the feeling that this is the golden tip? Thanks Mike.

To reply some of the previous posters: I'm well aware that hands-on
practise is a better teacher than any book. I also have no interest
whatsoever at copying someone's "sound". And: the only judge is your
ear, not some textbook. As a matter of fact I kindof agree with
everybody but I still think a solid, deep textbook can contribute to
my skills. There ARE technique's and strategies involved in things
like mixing and microphone placement. If you master the technique, you
can mold it to suit your taste. At least that's my point of view.

Beste wishes to everyone,

Ignace
  #25   Report Post  
Tommi
 
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Default Is all audio literature shallow? Where is the IN-DEPTH info?


"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Ignace Dhont) writes:

There ARE technique's and strategies involved in things
like mixing and microphone placement. If you master the technique, you
can mold it to suit your taste. At least that's my point of view.


I agree.



That's fine, my intention was just to point out that it's not the fault of
audio literature that there are no strict rules. Of course there are
strategies and techniques, but really, they are all used and one of the
reasons music sounds so sterile today is that everyone uses the same "trick
settings" which have proven to be "working".

IOW they're proven, because some records which incorporated those techniques
have sold ****loads, and thus many people think the techniques are the key
to "that sound". That's kinda stupid and sad, and doesn't make music any
better.
You could've done those records in a million different ways sonically, and
still they'd be selling.

The thing is, that sonical change happens only in one of a ten years because
engineers and producers don't rely enough on the fact that listeners get
used to the "new sound" after a while. Yet no-one wants to be the first one
creating it because you don't know beforehand how listeners accept the new
sound.

As an example, all rock records have a thuddy bass drum and an in-yer-face
vocal track today. Why?
Because "the people liked the previous bands that had the same sound",
because the book tells you that "rock has a lot of energy in the bass area",
and the book tells you that "people like to hear the singer clearly". Then
another book says "pop and rock music's key element are the vocals,
everything should back them up" etc.

Following these "rules", how long will it take for mixing engineers to stop
limiting the kick drum and the vocal track? It has been an upward trend for
like 15 years now.



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