[David@liminal]

Hi, I'm interested in purchasing a ribbon mic, primarily for some
spoken word work I have coming up but also in the future for vocal and
electric guitar recording and possibly as part of an m/s
configuration. I've had experience of some older mics - coles, beyer
etc, and I have an old reslosound but there now seems to be a lot more
choice mid price and most of these new mics seem to get pretty
positive reviews in the press.

question: has anybody compared the likes of SE R1, Sontronics Sigma,
Crowley and Tripp Naked Eye? In the UK they're all within the same
range with AEA and Royer costing quite a bit more but these mics
apparently being something of a step up from the likes of Nady, Oktava
and T-bone etc. I'm interested that the sigma is active. I'd be
using the mic with a focusrite voicemaster pro and wonder what the
trade-off is in terms of the active circuitry giving a higher output
but presumably introducing some kind of compromise (noise/ distortion)
over the passive models. Any opinions on this issue also welcome.
Lastly, the naked eye is marketed as dual voice but even with other
ribbon's i've used, I've noticed slight variations in the
characteristics of the front and back - or was I imagining it? Is
there something about ribbon mics that makes a figure of 8 pattern
somehow less simetrical than a condensor design? This is obviously an
issue for M/S work.

David

[Don Pearce]

On 19 Apr 2007 02:01:11 -0700, "David@liminal"
wrote:

Hi, I'm interested in purchasing a ribbon mic, primarily for some
spoken word work I have coming up but also in the future for vocal and
electric guitar recording and possibly as part of an m/s
configuration. I've had experience of some older mics - coles, beyer
etc, and I have an old reslosound but there now seems to be a lot more
choice mid price and most of these new mics seem to get pretty
positive reviews in the press.

question: has anybody compared the likes of SE R1, Sontronics Sigma,
Crowley and Tripp Naked Eye? In the UK they're all within the same
range with AEA and Royer costing quite a bit more but these mics
apparently being something of a step up from the likes of Nady, Oktava
and T-bone etc. I'm interested that the sigma is active. I'd be
using the mic with a focusrite voicemaster pro and wonder what the
trade-off is in terms of the active circuitry giving a higher output
but presumably introducing some kind of compromise (noise/ distortion)
over the passive models. Any opinions on this issue also welcome.
Lastly, the naked eye is marketed as dual voice but even with other
ribbon's i've used, I've noticed slight variations in the
characteristics of the front and back - or was I imagining it? Is
there something about ribbon mics that makes a figure of 8 pattern
somehow less simetrical than a condensor design? This is obviously an
issue for M/S work.

David

Finding a front-back difference with a figure 8 mic is very common. It
always happens when you test it by listening though headphones and
speaking into the mic and turning it back and forth. The problem is
that what you hear is a mixture of sound from the headphones, and
direct sound through your head. Because the phase from the microphone
reverses when you turn it round, the combined sound changes markedly.

Also note that with ribbons, most people end up making noisy
recordings. A ribbon needs a preamp designed for the task - the usual
one you will find at the front end of a mixer just isn't up to the
job.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Nick Brown]

David@liminal wrote:
I'd be
using the mic with a focusrite voicemaster pro and wonder what the
trade-off is in terms of the active circuitry giving a higher output
but presumably introducing some kind of compromise (noise/ distortion)
over the passive models. Any opinions on this issue also welcome.

If you're not looking to change preamp, I'd suggest you work out what
sensitivity you need from a mic to get acceptable results.

Do you know the sensitivity of your Reslo mic? (A quick look on Google
came up with page claiming it was 2.8mV/Pa, but I've no idea if that's
correct.) If not, can you gauge it by comparing to some other mic that
is a known quantity, and do you get an acceptable amount of gain with
low enough noise floor when using the Reslo through your Focusrite
preamp?

I'm not familiar with all the mics you've mentioned, but the cheaper
mics tend to have lower sensitivity than the likes of Royer and
Crowley & Tripp mics.

-Nick

[Scott Dorsey]

David@liminal wrote:
Hi, I'm interested in purchasing a ribbon mic, primarily for some
spoken word work I have coming up but also in the future for vocal and
electric guitar recording and possibly as part of an m/s
configuration. I've had experience of some older mics - coles, beyer
etc, and I have an old reslosound but there now seems to be a lot more
choice mid price and most of these new mics seem to get pretty
positive reviews in the press.

Most of them don't really deserve it. The vast majority of them are
Chinese copies of Wes Dooley's A84 design, manufactured by people who
don't really understand the details of the design and therefore did
not copy them well.

question: has anybody compared the likes of SE R1, Sontronics Sigma,
Crowley and Tripp Naked Eye? In the UK they're all within the same
range with AEA and Royer costing quite a bit more but these mics
apparently being something of a step up from the likes of Nady, Oktava
and T-bone etc.

The AEA and Royer microphones are actually engineered by people who
designed them to have a particular sound, rather than be improvised from
whatever the Ningbo factory has on sale.

The Crowley and Tripp is really a very different sort of design altogether
and their ribbon is mechanically not like the traditional designs. Their
mikes are pretty good.

The Royer is really just an updated B&O design.

The Oktava is not made with Ningbo parts... the ribbon assembly itself is
pretty well-designed. But it has some massive body resonance problems.

Oh, yes, and if you are looking at a good modern design, do not forget
the Coles 4040. Way more top end than the old 4038, and way more output.

I'm interested that the sigma is active. I'd be
using the mic with a focusrite voicemaster pro and wonder what the
trade-off is in terms of the active circuitry giving a higher output
but presumably introducing some kind of compromise (noise/ distortion)
over the passive models. Any opinions on this issue also welcome.

I can't talk about that yet.

Lastly, the naked eye is marketed as dual voice but even with other
ribbon's i've used, I've noticed slight variations in the
characteristics of the front and back - or was I imagining it? Is
there something about ribbon mics that makes a figure of 8 pattern
somehow less simetrical than a condensor design? This is obviously an
issue for M/S work.

Some of the more cheaply made ribbons have symmetry problems resulting
in poor nulls. I would characterize that as making them pretty much
useless, but they sure sell a lot of them. The Ningbo "dual ribbon"
motor design is basically two of the AEA-copied motors cast together
and wired in series for higher output. The pattern on them is just
godawful.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[HKC]

has anybody compared the likes of SE R1, Sontronics Sigma,
Crowley and Tripp Naked Eye? In the UK they're all within the same
range with AEA and Royer costing quite a bit more but these mics
apparently being something of a step up from the likes of Nady, Oktava
and T-bone etc.


If you can then try them out. I had one of the ML52 Oktavas and tried the
Crowley and Tripp which immediately made me buy a second Oktava. Not because
the Crowley and Tripp was bad more because the Oktava was just as good (or
better). It's true that you have to have a good shock mount if your floor is
"boomy" but I do use mine for all sorts of things like electric guitar, some
types of brass and overheads and the resonance problem has never been an
issue.
To put it in perspective I have many more expensive mics including the
Lawson combo, 2 Gefell UMT70s, 2 Audio Technica 4051, RE20, SM7, MD421 etc
so when I say I like the Oktavas it's not just because they are the only
ones I have.
My point is that ribbons sound kind of strange and many people simply don´t
like them so if you're not really familiar with the sound then try one
first. The Oktava mics are very cheap since they started the factory sale
and although opinions may vary they do sound like ribbons and you will not
get a completely different sound from any of the others. This doesn't
include the new Royers and the Cole 4040 (from what I have read, I have
never tried these) because they should have a more open high end which is
somewhat strange to me because I basically use my ribbons to smoothen out
the high end when it gets too aggressive.
Also, are you aware that ribbons have such a low output that you need to
have a really good gainstage to make it sound like it's supposed to. That is
if you use it on something that isn't very loud of course.
Since ribbons have come seriously back into the scene many of the high end
preamp developers like Grace and Millennia have added extra gain to their
preamps to drive these mics. The new Grace m201 actually have a special
ribbon circuit because it does take a lot of muscle to make them sing.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 19, 4:57 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
David@liminal wrote:

Lastly, the naked eye is marketed as dual voice but even with other
ribbon's i've used, I've noticed slight variations in the
characteristics of the front and back - or was I imagining it? Is
there something about ribbon mics that makes a figure of 8 pattern
somehow less simetrical than a condensor design? This is obviously an
issue for M/S work.

Some of the more cheaply made ribbons have symmetry problems resulting
in poor nulls. I would characterize that as making them pretty much
useless, but they sure sell a lot of them. The Ningbo "dual ribbon"
motor design is basically two of the AEA-copied motors cast together
and wired in series for higher output. The pattern on them is just
godawful.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott,

Given a choice of the Coles 4040 or Beyerdynamic M130, which would
you choose for the side mic for M/S recording?

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:

Given a choice of the Coles 4040 or Beyerdynamic M130, which would
you choose for the side mic for M/S recording?

Damn, I don't know. The 4040 has better top end and higher output, but
it's physically larger so getting the mid mike near the acoustic center
could be harder.

I think tonally the 4040 would match a condenser mid mike better, but the
M130 would match an M160 mid mike better.

I think I'd want to actually do a shootout before dumping money on either
one. I have used both as side mikes before but I have never directly
compared them.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

I'f you're interested in an mS setup I've been informed that a beyer
160 and 130 together wok well . As it happens I have a M160 for sale
with a brand new Stephen Sank DX 77 ribbon installed for $550.00

If you're interested reply to paul@(nospam)glitchlessdotnet
of course remove the nospam and replace the dot.
Paul

On 19 Apr 2007 02:01:11 -0700, "David@liminal"
wrote:


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

[Nick Brown]

On 20 Apr, 18:34, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
wrote:

Given a choice of the Coles 4040 or Beyerdynamic M130, which would
you choose for the side mic for M/S recording?

Damn, I don't know. The 4040 has better top end and higher output, but
it's physically larger so getting the mid mike near the acoustic center
could be harder.


I have both the Beyer M130 and the Coles 4040. I bought the Beyer
unaware that I was about to get an opportunity to pick up the Coles at
a good price, second hand. I've been using them as side mics, to
record classical and 12 string acoustic guitar.

To elaborate a little on what Scott said, in addition to being bigger
the Coles is very heavy (it has an internal shock-mount). Positioning
it at unusual angles takes some doing, even with a robust stand. It
has a 3/8" screw thread on its underside, and needs to be screwed on
very tightly to avoid it unscrewing again under its own weight, when
turned onto its side. A rubber washer helps. There's no major problem
here, just this isn't a mic you're going to be able to set up in any
great hurry.

In terms of sound, used at a distance greater than a meter, there's
actually not a great deal of difference in sound between the two. The
Beyer is a little smoother, more neutral, the Coles is a bit more
forward sounding, with a more pronounced midrange.

Used up close, things change - the Coles gets very midrange-happy.
Whether you'd characterise this as "warm and solid", or as "cloying
and muddy" is going to depend a lot upon the circumstances, I think.
It works well for me, in the sense that if I wasn't looking to lend a
little more weight to the sound of the instrument, I wouldn't be
taking the trouble to record a side signal from it anyway.

I've been happy with the Coles as a side mic to a Schoeps CMC541, an
EV RE20, and Beyer M260 (with the top end trimmed a little to match
the M260). I've no intention of getting letting go of the M130, but if
I could only have one, it would be the Coles.

-Nick

[hank alrich]

Nick Brown wrote:

To elaborate a little on what Scott said, in addition to being bigger
the Coles is very heavy (it has an internal shock-mount). Positioning
it at unusual angles takes some doing, even with a robust stand. It
has a 3/8" screw thread on its underside, and needs to be screwed on
very tightly to avoid it unscrewing again under its own weight, when
turned onto its side. A rubber washer helps. There's no major problem
here, just this isn't a mic you're going to be able to set up in any
great hurry.

Sounds like a job for the Latchalke MicKing stand:

http://www.latchlakemusic.com/micking_stand.html

You can do chin-ups on the thing.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

hank alrich wrote:

Nick Brown wrote:

To elaborate a little on what Scott said, in addition to being bigger
the Coles is very heavy (it has an internal shock-mount). Positioning
it at unusual angles takes some doing, even with a robust stand. It
has a 3/8" screw thread on its underside, and needs to be screwed on
very tightly to avoid it unscrewing again under its own weight, when
turned onto its side. A rubber washer helps. There's no major problem
here, just this isn't a mic you're going to be able to set up in any
great hurry.

Sounds like a job for the Latchalke* MicKing stand:

http://www.latchlakemusic.com/micking_stand.html

You can do chin-ups on the thing.

* Duh... "Latchlake"

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Nick Brown]

On 22 Apr, 21:05, (hank alrich) wrote:
Sounds like a job for the Latchalke MicKing stand:

http://www.latchlakemusic.com/micking_stand.html

You can do chin-ups on the thing.

I don't doubt it. Hey, if I sold my Beyer M130, it might get me about
half way to buying one of those...

Looks nice, though.

Cheers,
Nick