Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
Hi there....
It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its power. Has anybody else experienced this? I always end up leaving the snare louder because it gives the mix a more solid impact but then the mix suffers because everything else is much softer. I've compressed the snare so that it can sit in the mix at a lower level and still have impact but it's not working. One way I've managed to overcome this problem is to send all drums to a stereo compressor, with the snare nice and loud, and compress the buss by about 3-4 or 5db. This tucks the snare into the rest of the drums and makes the kit sound more like 1 instrument as opposed to a bunch of seperated drum elements. After I've done this compression, the remaining instruments in the mix don't feel right and need more compression. I send these off to other subs and give similar gain reduction to that of the drums. If I don't compress remaining instruments, the power is gone and only the drums sound good. By the time I am done, about 3 subgroups are going and things sound the way I like them. 3 subgoups contain every track in the mix and I've grouped things together nicely. At the end of all that, the snare still has the power I want it to have but it doesn't stick out above the rest of the music. Now did I go all around the world just to achieve some snare control? Did I start to chase my tail somewhere along those steps? Should I be just leaving everything to the master buss and just applying 1 compressor there to tame the excited snare? Is it better to end up with a nicely balanced master without having used stereo 2-buss compression? I feel like although I've gone around the world to balance things I kinda did it the better way, as opposed to letting 1 compressor do all the hard work in one go. Are a lot of you grouping things and compressing subs? Do you find that it gives you more tranparent results than doing 1 hit of compression on the 2-buss? Do any of you compress subs and then compress the 2 mix? Please share your experiences with compressing stems of instruments and the 2-mix. thanks in advance David |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
"David" wrote in message
om... Hi there.... It's been a lifelong battle trying to blend snare drums into mixes. It seems it always jumps out of the rest of the music and dominates everything else. It sounds obviously about 3db louder than everything else but whenever I put it lower in the mix, it loses all of its power. I'm guessing you could use some EQ on the snare. It's usually the midrange that's too prominent in the snare but if you turn it down so that the mids aren't too loud then the Fletcher-Munson effect comes into play (which is why you are losing "power").. Try using a "smiley curve" EQ plot on the snare (boost the low end and the extreme highs) and see if that works. Some people cut the mids but I think the boost sounds better. This should allow you to turn it's volume down without it losing it's "power". |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
I always end up leaving the snare
louder because it gives the mix a more solid impact but then the mix suffers because everything else is much softer. Is this in the control room and when you listen somewhere else? If the snare is too loud and you think it's making everything not sound right, what kind of "impact" of the mix are you really getting? --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
One way I've managed to overcome this problem is to send all drums to
a stereo compressor, with the snare nice and loud, and compress the buss by about 3-4 or 5db. This tucks the snare into the rest of the drums and makes the kit sound more like 1 instrument as opposed to a bunch of seperated drum elements. After I've done this compression, the remaining instruments in the mix don't feel right and need more compression. I send these off to other subs and give similar gain reduction to that of the drums. If I don't compress remaining instruments, the power is gone and only the drums sound good. By the time I am done, about 3 subgroups are going and things sound the way I like them. 3 subgoups contain every track in the mix and I've grouped things together nicely. At the end of all that, the snare still has the power I want it to have but it doesn't stick out above the rest of the music. If it sounds right, it IS right. Seriously, whatever you can do to make it sound as intended is the right way. If you hadn't been able to fix it, I would have advised you to just let the snare "take one for the team" and bring it down in the mix...while you experiment with possible solutions. But it sounds like you've got the problem solved, so I don't advise looking any further, as over tweaking usually has you come full circle into a whole new mess. Just my $0.02 |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
"David" wrote in message
om... (EggHd) wrote in message ... I think the method I explained solved the problem but I cannot believe how amazing the advice about the "fletcher munson" effect really is! Rick you have opened my eyes to a whole new ball game. I never really thought about doing this kind of eqing on individual tracks. I've always done mild cuts and surgical dips here and there to get my snare sound. I read about it in an article called "How To Mix A Pop Song From Scratch". Many people have "claimed" to be the author and have posted it on their website but here's one I think may be correct: http://www.audiomelody.com/Tutorials/MixingStep3.htm. As much as I've tried to "pick apart" mixes from others that I liked I would have never figured the snare had any really, really lows or highs from listening to the mix. In fact, listening to the mixes it sounded just the opposite, in the way you EQ things to stay out of the way of other tracks to keep them from "using" up the energy frequencies those other instruments need (especially the overcrowded low bass range). If anything I'd always rolled off a little bass before. But after reading this article and trying it I realized the trick was boosting REALLY on the far ends. That's when it dawned on me that it was the Fletcher-Munson curve which explained perfectly why it sounded good loud but lacked power at lower volumes. That's the textbook definition of the Fletcher-Munson effect. I think that Ricks and Wills methods would work fantastic together to achieve a killer snare that drives the mix but doesn't overpower it. I think Wills trick is called the NYC trick or something right? I could use the NYC and Fletcher Curve EQ together! Should I do the fletcher eq on the mult of the snare (compressed track) or the uneffected snare track? It would sound silly to give the smile to both the mult and original. I still want the original sound in there generating the natural frequencies that the mic picked up. I think the only way to know is to try both and see which sounds best. Each song may be different. But most times I've seen the "NYC Compression" mentioned (I've also heard it was started in Motown and is also called Motown compression) they usually compress the crap out of the mult channel and really boost the EQ on it. That would seem to make more sense because boosting the EQ on the none compressed track (which is really adding to the volume) is going to make it more "peaky" with a greater dynamic than it already has which will certainly not help it "sit" in a mix. I could be wrong. But I'm finding the less I do the better. Everything, unless done specifically for an effect, is always degrading the signal in some way and is a compromise at best that never sounds as good as getting it right without the "fix". if I'm subconciously mixing in a fashion that creates a loudness button effect over my mix would I be better of not hyping the lows and highs so much in mixing so that mastering can generate the smile eq? I really do like that sound on certain records but I just don't know where I should be doing the hyping. I often do this as I'm often doing everything myself: writing, playing, singing, recording...the whole thing..by myself. And the insecurity that's present in most all performers makes you feel your stuff is never as good (standing on it's own) as others (even though that's not true in the slightest and the greatest composers of all sometimes suffer from this worse than the rest).. This is often a problem of having no perspective or "distance". How can you be unbiased about your own work? I always tend to judge it as better or worse than it really is. I've shelved stuff I've worked on out of disgust before because I thought it was horrible only to find it by accident six months and be literally stunned at how good it is. I don't have the discipline to "put it away" when I should. I have a lot of health problems and only have short periods few and far between that I feel good so I feel I must do all I can in that short time period which just fries my senses. Actually when I compare my mixes to a lot of commercial stuff, the commercial stuff sounds dull. Of course in reality mine are too hyped due to the above causes. I'm beginning the see the wisdom of having a producer. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
david,
there's a big article in this month's Tape Op with michael brauer describing a submix compression technique similar to what you describe. check it out. kurt |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
(David)
I think that Ricks and Wills methods would work fantastic together to achieve a killer snare that drives the mix but doesn't overpower it. I think Wills trick is called the NYC trick or something right? Well actually I thought _I_ invented it because I never actually learned that from anyone. Before I ever worked in a big studio I was producing 8 track plus midi productions for singer songwriters, and I had a solo guitar piece that just needed something. I aux'ed the left and right mic channels into a Valley People dynacomp compressor and brought that squashed mono guitar up in the center, and as the mics were pretty wide apart (close mic'ed on the guitar neck and body) it worked great. And I found it worked on a lot of things. Then many years later I come here on RAP and find out I didn't invent anything after all! Oh well, all glory is fleeting anyway... Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
snare drum sticking out above the rest of the music
(WillStG)
I aux'ed the left and right mic channels into a Valley People dynacomp compressor Umm actually it was a Dynamite, the version mounted in a small plastic box. That was a decent little compressor/deEsser I thought... Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Kick the compression habit | Audio Opinions | |||
Sound, Music, Balance | High End Audio | |||
The elusive ANALOG Drum sound | Pro Audio | |||
Interesting article on the effect of PtP file sharing on music sales... | Pro Audio | |||
hearing loss info | Car Audio |