Hey all, I've got a Digi 002 rack and am interested in getting a few
more preamps (since digidesign is a bunch of morons and only built 4 in
to the rack). I record accoustic drums and must have at least 8
preamped inputs. I'm also interested in a control surface that might
double as a mixer. I would like the device to be fairly portable. The
command 8 looks really cool but I don't know if I can afford to dump
$1000 on a control surface. Besides that I don't know for sure if it
would give me the additional inputs that I need. Can somebody shed
some light on the subject and possibly make suggestions as to what I
should do?

Also, I've heard that you can use the optical input on the 002 for an
additional 8 inputs. Has anybody tried this and if so what gear do I
need to do it?

Thanks.
Mark

nekcih_at_yahoo_dot_com

Mark,

I am running the 002 as well. I am using the Behringer ADA8000 for the
additional inputs the the ADAT connection. Just make sure that you
have the clock set to ADAT or you'll get little pops and clicks in the
system. It works well for recording, so much so that I have it racked
up and don't use the inputs on the back of the 002.

I hope this helps,

Tracy

nekcih wrote:
Hey all, I've got a Digi 002 rack and am interested in getting a few
more preamps (since digidesign is a bunch of morons and only built 4 in
to the rack). I record accoustic drums and must have at least 8
preamped inputs. I'm also interested in a control surface that might
double as a mixer. I would like the device to be fairly portable. The
command 8 looks really cool but I don't know if I can afford to dump
$1000 on a control surface. Besides that I don't know for sure if it
would give me the additional inputs that I need. Can somebody shed
some light on the subject and possibly make suggestions as to what I
should do?

Also, I've heard that you can use the optical input on the 002 for an
additional 8 inputs. Has anybody tried this and if so what gear do I
need to do it?

Thanks.
Mark

nekcih_at_yahoo_dot_com

Mark,

I am running the 002 as well. I am using the Behringer ADA8000 for the
additional inputs the the ADAT connection. Just make sure that you
have the clock set to ADAT or you'll get little pops and clicks in the
system. It works well for recording, so much so that I have it racked
up and don't use the inputs on the back of the 002.

I hope this helps,

Tracy

nekcih wrote:
Hey all, I've got a Digi 002 rack and am interested in getting a few
more preamps (since digidesign is a bunch of morons and only built 4 in
to the rack). I record accoustic drums and must have at least 8
preamped inputs. I'm also interested in a control surface that might
double as a mixer. I would like the device to be fairly portable. The
command 8 looks really cool but I don't know if I can afford to dump
$1000 on a control surface. Besides that I don't know for sure if it
would give me the additional inputs that I need. Can somebody shed
some light on the subject and possibly make suggestions as to what I
should do?

Also, I've heard that you can use the optical input on the 002 for an
additional 8 inputs. Has anybody tried this and if so what gear do I
need to do it?

Thanks.
Mark

nekcih_at_yahoo_dot_com

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. I think I found a better
solution. I'm probably going to sell my 002 and hook up with the new
m-audio project mix. That way I can still have protools and don't have
to be tied down to digidesign's hardware. Has anybody played with one
of these yet? I've read some really good stuff about it. For
$1,250.00 you can get exactly what I want... control surface/mixer
with automated faders, protools compatability, 8 preamps all in 1
device, and more. It looks to be a very portable device as well.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...ixIO-main.html

Let's generate some dialogue here for the benefit of all.

What are the pros/cons of buying one of these rather than the 002? I
mean, it does basically all that the full 002 setup does in one unit
and costs half as much right?

Thanks for the info and comments.
Mark

nekcih wrote:
What are the pros/cons of buying one of these rather than the 002? I
mean, it does basically all that the full 002 setup does in one unit
and costs half as much right?


The Projectmix has 4 more pres but they are most likely not quite up to
par with the 002's (which are pretty basic to begin with). The pres do
not have a lo pass filter as the 002 does. The project mix has one
instrument input, the 002 has 4. The projectmix has 14 total possible
outputs, the 002 has 18. If you buy the projectmix you still have to
buy Digidesign m-powered software (around $300). There are some small
differences between m-powered and LE. LE comes with Reason adapted,
Amplitube, T-Racks, and Sample tank. M-Pow does not. And M-Powered
does not support digi translator and toolkit.

If your setup doesn't have to be portable i'd go with a 002Rack and a
Tascam US-2400 (very cheap these days). Get the Behringer ADA8000
until you can afford some nice converters and if you need a mixer buy a
cheap behringer. I can't see anyone being happy using the projectmix
(or 002 for that matter) as an actual mixing board.

Dan Fox

In article .com,
"nekcih" wrote:

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. I think I found a better
solution. I'm probably going to sell my 002 and hook up with the new
m-audio project mix. That way I can still have protools and don't have
to be tied down to digidesign's hardware. Has anybody played with one
of these yet? I've read some really good stuff about it. For
$1,250.00 you can get exactly what I want... control surface/mixer
with automated faders, protools compatability, 8 preamps all in 1
device, and more. It looks to be a very portable device as well.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...ixIO-main.html

Let's generate some dialogue here for the benefit of all.

What are the pros/cons of buying one of these rather than the 002? I
mean, it does basically all that the full 002 setup does in one unit
and costs half as much right?

Thanks for the info and comments.
Mark

Just bear in mind that if you do this, you'll have to buy Pro Tools all
over again, since the M-Audio stuff uses a different version and it
doesn't come free.

I use a Presonus Digimax LT with my 002R and it works fine via ADAT
lightpipe. I also bought an RME quadmic to preamp the other 4 channels
of analog input and it, too, works very well.

For a control surface, I use a Behringer BFC2000, but it lacks touch
sensitive faders, so editing mixes is a little bit of a drag.

HTH
Edwin

Ok, well, I'm not too concerned about the highpass filter. I don't use
it much anyway and if worst comes to worst I can take care of that
after it's recorded.

The single instrument input is kind of a bummer but most of the time I
mic my amps anyway so that's not too big of a deal to me.

As far as the software differences go, I could care less as long as
I've got protools, waves and the vst to rtas converter (which I do).

I'd like to be able to record the entire band in one shot. I usually
use at least 8 mics on the drums so unless I get something like the
Behringer ADA8000 I'll be limited to 8 mics (which is still more than
the Digi without additional hardware).

After learning a bit more about the Project Mix I/O, I've discovered
that it does have 18 simultaneous inputs just like the Digi... 8
preamped mic inputs, 2 SPDIF, 8 lightpipe optical.

My only remaining concern is the quality of the preamps. Does anybody
know the signal to noise ratio on the Digi preamped inputs? I didn't
see it on their website. What else should I be looking for in a
preamp? I looked mostly at SNR and THD+N because those are the things
I understand at this point. Is there any way for me to really know how
much better the Digi preamps are without just listening to it?

So here's what I'm thinking...
$1250.00 Project Mix I/O
$300.00 Protools M-Powered
$200.00 Behringer ADA8000
------------
$1750.00 total

If I sell my Digi that makes up for $1000 of it right there so I'm only
looking at $750.

My other option to achieve basically the same results is to buy the
command 8. I paid about $1150 for the digi so if I dump another $1150
into that setup then I will have $2300 into it and as far as I can tell
the preamps are the only real benefit. So my determining factor is
this... are the preamps really $550.00 better than the Project Mix
pres?

What do you guys think?

Thanks for all your help. This has been a very useful and money saving
thread for me even if I stick with the Digi! You guys rock!

nekcih wrote:

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input. I think I found a better
solution. I'm probably going to sell my 002 and hook up with the new
m-audio project mix. That way I can still have protools and don't have
to be tied down to digidesign's hardware. Has anybody played with one
of these yet? I've read some really good stuff about it. For
$1,250.00 you can get exactly what I want... control surface/mixer
with automated faders, protools compatability, 8 preamps all in 1
device, and more. It looks to be a very portable device as well.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...ixIO-main.html

I don't think you could take the Project Mix to a gig and use it as a
mixer. You could use the Digi-002 (non-rack) as a mixer at a gig.


--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

nekcih wrote:

After learning a bit more about the Project Mix I/O, I've discovered
that it does have 18 simultaneous inputs just like the Digi... 8
preamped mic inputs, 2 SPDIF, 8 lightpipe optical.

My only remaining concern is the quality of the preamps. Does anybody
know the signal to noise ratio on the Digi preamped inputs? I didn't
see it on their website.

You aren't spending enough money to worry about what will be small
differences. I haven't seen a real review of the Project Mix I/O yet,
but unless you hear that the front end really blows, it won't be much
different from what you have now. You won't have an ear-opening
experience, but you won't be disappointed. Drums are loud and you can
get away with a little extra noise in the preamp because you don't need
the gain. But as I keep telling people, there are things more important
than noise, and they're difficult or impossible to measure, and may
even be difficult to choose based on listening. In your range, you need
to look for functionality at usable quality, not marginally better
quality than something else in the same price range.

(that's long for "No, I don't know.")

If you need a mixer for live gigs, don't use your recording gear- it
will be a pain in the ass. Just go buy an inexpensive mackie, yamaha
or behringer mixer.

You should get either a command 8 or mackie control universal if you
need a control surface for pro tools. This way if you ever upgrade
your interface, you don't need to buy a new control surface. If you
want to add more preamps to your digi 002r, spend a little extra
scratch and get a focusrite octopre le with the adat card. My concern
with buying something like the behringer ada8000 is that it isn't worth
anything on the used market. So when you outgrow it (and you will)
you're stuck with it. The octopre will last you quite a bit longer
before you outgrow it (you may never outgrow it) and it will still have
a reasonable resell value.

Now I know i've just suggested more money than you were thinking, and I
don't mean to tell you and go out and blow a wad, but based on the
information you've provided, these are probably some good suggestions
for longevity and cost effectiveness. YOu can of course do it cheaper,
but then that's money down the sink.

Nate

Nate Najar
www.natenajar.com

I'm still trying to decide but I'll probably do the Project I/O and
then in a few months when I can afford it, I'll get a small mixer I can
use at gigs. I really like the automated faders and am pretty limited
on $$ so I think this is going to be the best route for me.

Thanks for the ideas!
Mark

Nate Najar wrote:
If you need a mixer for live gigs, don't use your recording gear- it
will be a pain in the ass. Just go buy an inexpensive mackie, yamaha
or behringer mixer.

You should get either a command 8 or mackie control universal if you
need a control surface for pro tools. This way if you ever upgrade
your interface, you don't need to buy a new control surface. If you
want to add more preamps to your digi 002r, spend a little extra
scratch and get a focusrite octopre le with the adat card. My concern
with buying something like the behringer ada8000 is that it isn't worth
anything on the used market. So when you outgrow it (and you will)
you're stuck with it. The octopre will last you quite a bit longer
before you outgrow it (you may never outgrow it) and it will still have
a reasonable resell value.

Now I know i've just suggested more money than you were thinking, and I
don't mean to tell you and go out and blow a wad, but based on the
information you've provided, these are probably some good suggestions
for longevity and cost effectiveness. YOu can of course do it cheaper,
but then that's money down the sink.

Nate

Nate Najar
www.natenajar.com

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:09:54 -0400, nekcih wrote
(in article .com):

Hey all, I've got a Digi 002 rack and am interested in getting a few
more preamps (since digidesign is a bunch of morons and only built 4 in
to the rack).

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Digidesign are morons because
they only included four preamps in the package or that you are a moron for
buying a piece of gear that only had four preamps when you needed more?

I record accoustic drums and must have at least 8
preamped inputs.

Sorry, guess you answered my question.

I'm also interested in a control surface that might
double as a mixer. I would like the device to be fairly portable. The
command 8 looks really cool but I don't know if I can afford to dump
$1000 on a control surface. Besides that I don't know for sure if it
would give me the additional inputs that I need. Can somebody shed
some light on the subject and possibly make suggestions as to what I
should do?

Also, I've heard that you can use the optical input on the 002 for an
additional 8 inputs. Has anybody tried this and if so what gear do I
need to do it?

Yes. I use an RME ADI-8 DS AD converter which lightpipes to the Digi 002 and
eight outboard preamps.

Regards,

Ty Ford

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:52:12 -0400, nekcih wrote
(in article . com):

Ok, well, I'm not too concerned about the highpass filter. I don't use
it much anyway and if worst comes to worst I can take care of that
after it's recorded.

The single instrument input is kind of a bummer but most of the time I
mic my amps anyway so that's not too big of a deal to me.

As far as the software differences go, I could care less as long as
I've got protools, waves and the vst to rtas converter (which I do).

I'd like to be able to record the entire band in one shot. I usually
use at least 8 mics on the drums so unless I get something like the
Behringer ADA8000 I'll be limited to 8 mics (which is still more than
the Digi without additional hardware).

After learning a bit more about the Project Mix I/O, I've discovered
that it does have 18 simultaneous inputs just like the Digi... 8
preamped mic inputs, 2 SPDIF, 8 lightpipe optical.

My only remaining concern is the quality of the preamps. Does anybody
know the signal to noise ratio on the Digi preamped inputs? I didn't
see it on their website. What else should I be looking for in a
preamp? I looked mostly at SNR and THD+N because those are the things
I understand at this point. Is there any way for me to really know how
much better the Digi preamps are without just listening to it?

So here's what I'm thinking...
$1250.00 Project Mix I/O
$300.00 Protools M-Powered
$200.00 Behringer ADA8000
------------
$1750.00 total

I think you are working your way down the rat hole.

The preamps I use with the RME A/D converter cost more about as much as the
002Rack and sound much better.

You get what you pay for. You may find a system that has it all for less, but
it won't sound as good as one that costs more and has better quality parts.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Well, I've worked with the digi002 for a year or so now and it's a
pretty decent device. I just think it was a very poor design choice on
the part of digidesign to only include 4 pres. It appears to me that
they use it as a way to get you to buy more of their gear. Otherwise,
why didn't they just include them? Everything else is there. If you
open the box, there's plenty of room for them. So why not? Because
they want you to spend another $1100 on the command 8. It's a great
move for digidesign from a business perspective. I think it's the
perfect example of how they treat their customers. Another great
example of this is how you can buy the hardware new and still be forced
to pay an extra $100 - $300 for the latest version of the software. It
should come with the hardware for what you are paying. Digidesign
doesn't care about you, they only care about your money. When you
consider the percentage of marketshare that digidesign has, I think
they can afford to give you the minor upgrades for free....
expecially when you just bought their hardware. Beside that, their
minor upgrades are primarily bug fixes with a few small graphical
enhancements (so they can call it an upgrade instead of a bug fix).
Think about the large software companies out there... how many of them
have this non-customer oriented approach to upgrades?

In my opinion, digidesign has a great product but they aren't very good
to their customers. I believe their business culture will have to
change for them to keep up with all the competition's ever increasing
quality and decreasing prices. I believe it already has changed but
has a long way to go yet.

So perhaps you can see why I'm torn on this decision. I'm sure the
pres are a little better in the digi but I really don't think the
difference will be that noticable... and if it is, I'll sell it and
buy another digi (hopefully with updated software).

It's strange to me why people think they need to defend digidesign.
Their just an ok company full of some good and some bad products, some
good and some bad leadership. Sometimes they are the best and
sometimes they are not.

Anyway, I've recorded with much more expensive and higher quality gear
than the digi002. I've been doing this stuff for several years now.
I've played with some very expensive gear and I've played with some
very cheap gear. In my opinion, the mics and the preamps are the most
important hardware involved but what really matters is the passion in
the music. I've heard plenty of crappy quality recordings that I love
and I've heard plenty of great recordings that suck. I agree with the
previous comment. I'm not spending enough money here to worry about a
marginal quality difference.

Yet... I haven't sold the Digi yet. Still deliberating.
I hope I haven't stirred the pot too much here. But if so, what the
heck... debate is healthy.

Peace hippies!
Mark



Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:52:12 -0400, nekcih wrote
(in article . com):

Ok, well, I'm not too concerned about the highpass filter. I don't use
it much anyway and if worst comes to worst I can take care of that
after it's recorded.

The single instrument input is kind of a bummer but most of the time I
mic my amps anyway so that's not too big of a deal to me.

As far as the software differences go, I could care less as long as
I've got protools, waves and the vst to rtas converter (which I do).

I'd like to be able to record the entire band in one shot. I usually
use at least 8 mics on the drums so unless I get something like the
Behringer ADA8000 I'll be limited to 8 mics (which is still more than
the Digi without additional hardware).

After learning a bit more about the Project Mix I/O, I've discovered
that it does have 18 simultaneous inputs just like the Digi... 8
preamped mic inputs, 2 SPDIF, 8 lightpipe optical.

My only remaining concern is the quality of the preamps. Does anybody
know the signal to noise ratio on the Digi preamped inputs? I didn't
see it on their website. What else should I be looking for in a
preamp? I looked mostly at SNR and THD+N because those are the things
I understand at this point. Is there any way for me to really know how
much better the Digi preamps are without just listening to it?

So here's what I'm thinking...
$1250.00 Project Mix I/O
$300.00 Protools M-Powered
$200.00 Behringer ADA8000
------------
$1750.00 total

I think you are working your way down the rat hole.

The preamps I use with the RME A/D converter cost more about as much as the
002Rack and sound much better.

You get what you pay for. You may find a system that has it all for less, but
it won't sound as good as one that costs more and has better quality parts.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:23:55 -0400, nekcih wrote
(in article .com):

Well, I've worked with the digi002 for a year or so now and it's a
pretty decent device. I just think it was a very poor design choice on
the part of digidesign to only include 4 pres. It appears to me that
they use it as a way to get you to buy more of their gear. Otherwise,
why didn't they just include them?

Ever open a catalog and see how many standalone preamps there are? Digi did.

Everything else is there. If you
open the box, there's plenty of room for them. So why not? Because
they want you to spend another $1100 on the command 8. It's a great
move for digidesign from a business perspective. I think it's the
perfect example of how they treat their customers. Another great
example of this is how you can buy the hardware new and still be forced
to pay an extra $100 - $300 for the latest version of the software. It
should come with the hardware for what you are paying. Digidesign
doesn't care about you, they only care about your money. When you
consider the percentage of marketshare that digidesign has, I think
they can afford to give you the minor upgrades for free....
expecially when you just bought their hardware. Beside that, their
minor upgrades are primarily bug fixes with a few small graphical
enhancements (so they can call it an upgrade instead of a bug fix).
Think about the large software companies out there... how many of them
have this non-customer oriented approach to upgrades?

Well basically, I think you're talking crap. Nobody held your feet to the
fire and MADE you buy Digi gear.

In my opinion, digidesign has a great product but they aren't very good
to their customers. I believe their business culture will have to
change for them to keep up with all the competition's ever increasing
quality and decreasing prices. I believe it already has changed but
has a long way to go yet.

They've always been good to me and most people I know. Perhaps you're
expecting the moon and the stars.

So perhaps you can see why I'm torn on this decision. I'm sure the
pres are a little better in the digi but I really don't think the
difference will be that noticable... and if it is, I'll sell it and
buy another digi (hopefully with updated software).

Don't buy old stuff and that won't be a problem.

It's strange to me why people think they need to defend digidesign.
Their just an ok company full of some good and some bad products, some
good and some bad leadership. Sometimes they are the best and
sometimes they are not.

It's strange when people think they can just **** all over a company in a
public forum because they don't have exactly what THEY want (at the moment).

Anyway, I've recorded with much more expensive and higher quality gear
than the digi002. I've been doing this stuff for several years now.
I've played with some very expensive gear and I've played with some
very cheap gear. In my opinion, the mics and the preamps are the most
important hardware involved but what really matters is the passion in
the music. I've heard plenty of crappy quality recordings that I love
and I've heard plenty of great recordings that suck. I agree with the
previous comment. I'm not spending enough money here to worry about a
marginal quality difference.

Yet... I haven't sold the Digi yet. Still deliberating.
I hope I haven't stirred the pot too much here. But if so, what the
heck... debate is healthy.

Peace hippies!
Mark

Yes it is.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

nekcih wrote:
Well, I've worked with the digi002 for a year or so now and it's a
pretty decent device. I just think it was a very poor design choice on
the part of digidesign to only include 4 pres. It appears to me that
they use it as a way to get you to buy more of their gear. Otherwise,
why didn't they just include them? Everything else is there. If you
open the box, there's plenty of room for them. So why not?

Have you ever heard of "price point?" Someone in the marketing
department decides how much they want it to cost before it's even
designed, and then the engineering department cuts whatever they have
to in order to make it sell for that price. If the product is targeted
to people who have $1000 to spend, it's probably reasonable to assume
that people with that size budget aren't going to have a lot of
microphones, at least a lot of microphones that sound as good as the
interface is capable of sounding.

So they put four mic inputs on it, figuring that most people will start
out using one or two mics, and maybe eventually grow into using four
before they decide that they've outgrown the system and need to either
expand or replace it. While you might argue that a mic preamp has only
$2 worth of ICs, resistors, and capacitors in it, the additonal
connectors cost another buck a piece, as well as take up panel space.
They might not need significantly more space on the circuit board to
add the mic preamps, but maybe they'd need the next size larger case.
And/or a larger power supply - you wouldn't want them to give you those
extra four mic inputs without phantom power, woud you? So all in all,
it might increase the retail price by $200-$250 to make it into an
8-input device.

Now you might have been perfectly willing to buy it for $1250, but
marketing people do a lot of research on these things, and if their
research tells them that for evey one like you, there are three who
will balk at anything over $1,000 (and don't need any more than four
preamps anyway) and will buy something else.

So that's how it works.

Be thankful that there are several optoins for upgrading what you
already own rather than having to replace it entirely. I consider that
to be a good way to save money when you initially buy and get more
mileage out of your investment when you need more than what you
originally bought.

It's strange to me why people think they need to defend digidesign.

I don't think we're specifically defending Digidesign here, but rather
understanding how this segment of the industry works. If you spent
$15,000 on a ProTools HD system, you'd be making money with it.
Upgrading is just a cost of ownership. At the ProTools LE level,
they're dealing with customers who don't want to spend a lot of money
and didn't pay a lot of money for their system. Can you blame them for
not wanting to keep giving away more to people who are already spending
the minimum?

Their just an ok company full of some good and some bad products, some
good and some bad leadership. Sometimes they are the best and
sometimes they are not.

That describes just about every company.

Anyway, I've recorded with much more expensive and higher quality gear
than the digi002. I've been doing this stuff for several years now.
I've played with some very expensive gear and I've played with some
very cheap gear. In my opinion, the mics and the preamps are the most
important hardware involved

That's a reasonable conclusion. So why are you whining about not having
four more mediocre preamps in the box when you have the opportunity to
add four really good preamps, perhaps that cost more than the 002R? A/D
converters are important, too, and you have the opportunity to upgrade
those, too - and you can do that without learning new software, or
getting some new hardware's drivers to work on your system.

In article .com,
"nekcih" wrote:

In my opinion, digidesign has a great product but they aren't very good
to their customers.


You should buy something from Waves.




I believe their business culture will have to
change for them to keep up with all the competition's ever increasing
quality and decreasing prices. I believe it already has changed but
has a long way to go yet.


I didn't know Protools had competition ;

It would be good if got some. Kinda like Lowe's keeping Home Depot on
their toes.

I've been dealing with pro audio companies for more than a quarter of a
century, and Digi for 15 years. And I find them def better than average.





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com