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#1
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Protection of investment
In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse
should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot. Graham |
#3
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Protection of investment
"WindsorFox" wrote in message ... In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? If I may assume what you meant and be allowed to SWAG an answer, then lets take a theoretical 100w RMS amplifier and an 4ohm speaker. The sq rt of Watts/ohms(R) will give you the current (I). Thus, sq rt of 25 =5a (fuse). This doesn't take into account instantaneous peaks of the amp. There is a lot of assumption in what I just stated but perhaps it can be a start to a thread. You will get a more accurate answer when you restate your question. Of course you will have to know the impedance (Z), not the coil's resistance (R) of your tweeter. BTW: what kind of tweeter do you have? west |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"WindsorFox" wrote in message
In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical steps if they blow too often. |
#5
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Protection of investment
Eeyore wrote:
WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot. Graham You are dead wrong. So next time when *I* ask a question, please stick to the facts presented in my post. Than you and HAND. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Arny Krueger wrote:
"WindsorFox" wrote in message In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical steps if they blow too often. Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had someone locally say the same thing but he suggested starting as 1/2 amp. Thanks |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
west wrote:
"WindsorFox" wrote in message ... In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? If I may assume what you meant and be allowed to SWAG an answer, then lets take a theoretical 100w RMS amplifier and an 4ohm speaker. The sq rt of Watts/ohms(R) will give you the current (I). Thus, sq rt of 25 =5a (fuse). This doesn't take into account instantaneous peaks of the amp. There is a lot of assumption in what I just stated but perhaps it can be a start to a thread. You will get a more accurate answer when you restate your question. Of course you will have to know the impedance (Z), not the coil's resistance (R) of your tweeter. BTW: what kind of tweeter do you have? west The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: Eeyore wrote: WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot. You are dead wrong. No. I'm dead right. I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you clearly know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt your ignorance. PLONK. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. Yeah sure they are ! Graham |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:17:20 -0500, WindsorFox
wrote: The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. All (well, 99+%) of the power feeding a tweeter is lost as heat. No good tweeter can dissipate such huge amounts of power and survive unscathed; they're designed to do better things, like moving at 20000 times per second. Different gig. If you don't believe me, try feeding one (don't waste both, and buy a spare right now) with, say, 15 watts for a minute. Fuses are no substitute for good sense. All good fortune, Chris Hornbeck "Second star to the right, Then straight on 'til morning." |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"WindsorFox" The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. ** ******** !! http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power. The 80 watt figure the maker gives is " DIN " = system power, not tweeter power dissipation. Plus - NEVER put any fuse ( or PTC protection device) in series with a tweeter or the amp may well become damaged if the fuse blows. The protection device **MUST ** go in series with the input to the crossover filter. Most passive high pass filters become virtual *short circuits* at the crossover frequency if there is no load on them PLUS the output voltage is boosted many times over the input level. ......... Phil |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? Try 0.5A fast blow types if the F range is 3kHz and above. Take up the music levels to just above your normal desired levels. If 0.5A blow, try 1.0 amp. If these don't blow, then its all you should use. Tweeters are renowned for blowing in adnace of any other drivers. All drivers should have their own fuse, and bass might have 3amp types, midranges 3amp, less is better if you can get away with it. If the amp is solid state, and a fault causes dc to appear across speaker, a fuse should blow, but it won't if the dc offset isn't the full PS rail supply voltage. So active protection is a MUST, Similarly, tweeters are liable to blow from a clipped wave if sustained, but an amp may only be clipping for a small % of the time, so the excess HF energy created in the clipping isn't enough continuously to blow a fuse, but it easily heats the tweeter voice coil which can expire, hence my recommendation for what seems to be a very low value tweeter fuse. The occasional nuisance blowing of speaker fuses will be cheaper than driver replacements. Patrick Turner. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Phil Allison wrote: "WindsorFox" The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. ** ******** !! http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power. The 80 watt figure the maker gives is " DIN " = system power, not tweeter power dissipation. Plus - NEVER put any fuse ( or PTC protection device) in series with a tweeter or the amp may well become damaged if the fuse blows. The protection device **MUST ** go in series with the input to the crossover filter. Most passive high pass filters become virtual *short circuits* at the crossover frequency if there is no load on them PLUS the output voltage is boosted many times over the input level. ........ Phil Phil is correct here and some amps could be be damaged if the tweeter is disconnected if a fuse in series with it blows. I have had to repair the damage done with over driven amps at end of school year parties where the speakers have fried, but amp fuses didn't blow, then the crossovers melted, and finally the amp thermalled out with lots of fused output and driver bjts. The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage had occurred. Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even polyswitches. But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help stop the smoke. If there is a C&L second order crossover filter then this becomes a low impedance resonant LC circuit of low Z at the Xover F without being loaded by the the tweeter if a fuse blows. To be able to place a safety fuse of LOW AMP VALUE in series with a tweeter where there is an L&C filter, the fuse should be ahead of the C&L filter. If there is only a C in series with the tweeter, the fuse should still be ahead of the C. The lowest value fuse should be used without causing nuisance blows at normal levels. Continuous power handling by tweeters is often no more than 10% of the rated continuous input power so if it says 100W on the box, assume the tweeter could take no more tha 10 watts. A tweeter of 5.2ohms with 10 watts can take only 7.2Vrms applied, or 1.38 amps,rms, so a 0.5A fuse could be tried first. If that blows at levels desired, use 1A, and if that blows, don't ever assume that a 1.5A will stop a tweeter from frying itself to death. Patrick Turner. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Eeyore wrote:
WindsorFox wrote: Eeyore wrote: WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? First off you don't have 100W or 200W tweeters so the above question is moot. You are dead wrong. No. I'm dead right. I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you clearly know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt your ignorance. Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking about. Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of course if you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I certainly shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max and I trust Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over yours. You are quite entitled to your opinion on whom is and is not ignorant, but the facts are quite different. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:27:10 -0500, WindsorFox
wrote: Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking about. Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of course if you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I certainly shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max and I trust Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over yours. You are quite entitled to your opinion on whom is and is not ignorant, but the facts are quite different. Good luck. You'll obviously need it. Chris Hornbeck "Second star to the right, Then straight on 'til morning." |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Phil Allison wrote:
"WindsorFox" The one in question is 5.2 ohms 110 watts max. It is a Morel MDT-12. I said 100 watts because of it, though the actual Mirage tweeters are 180 watts peak. ** ******** !! http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/mdt%2012.pdf That toy tweeter cannot handle more than about 15 watts of continuous power. That and it's HiVi twin have been rated very highly and my personal experience puts it very high as well. It it not as crisp as the original M series, but costs less, is available and was able to be mounted in such a way as to be almost un-noticed. It works very well in the place. What would you suggest that I should have used? |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"Windsor ****wit Fox" I suggest you go learn something about tweeter power handling since you clearly know ZERO about it at present but are equally clearly happy to flaunt your ignorance. Last time, you do not have a stinking clue what you are talking about. Why don't you go look up some specifications for your self, of course if you can't look up a SoundBlaster card by the model number I certainly shouldn't expect you to look up tweeter specs. The tweeter I have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS 110 watt RMS max and I trust Morel's opinion on the power capability of the tweeter over yours. ** The spec say no such thing - YOU ****ING IDIOT !! It says: " Nominal Power Handling DIN P 80 W " Got a clue what DIN means ??? The magnet is a tiny 44mm dia x 16 mm thick. If asked to dissipate 80 watts rms for more than few seconds, the whole damn thing would catch on fire. ........ Phil |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"Windsor ****wit Fox" ** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !! Then **** OFF !! ......... Phil |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Patrick Turner wrote:
WindsorFox wrote: In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? Try 0.5A fast blow types if the F range is 3kHz and above. Take up the music levels to just above your normal desired levels. If 0.5A blow, try 1.0 amp. If these don't blow, then its all you should use. Tweeters are renowned for blowing in adnace of any other drivers. All drivers should have their own fuse, and bass might have 3amp types, midranges 3amp, less is better if you can get away with it. If the amp is solid state, and a fault causes dc to appear across speaker, a fuse should blow, but it won't if the dc offset isn't the full PS rail supply voltage. So active protection is a MUST, Similarly, tweeters are liable to blow from a clipped wave if sustained, but an amp may only be clipping for a small % of the time, so the excess HF energy created in the clipping isn't enough continuously to blow a fuse, but it easily heats the tweeter voice coil which can expire, hence my recommendation for what seems to be a very low value tweeter fuse. The occasional nuisance blowing of speaker fuses will be cheaper than driver replacements. Patrick Turner. I don't have a problem with mids or woofers and it's quite possible it was a previous owner that did the damage since they are rear facing tweeters. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: The tweeter I have in my hand right now clearly states 80 watts RMS Bwahahahahahahaha ! I have a *REAL* 80W rms compression driver not far away. I'll take a scan of it and post it on a.b.s.e so you can see how *utterly retarded* your thinking is. Graham |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: they are rear facing tweeters. Shreeks of laughter ! Graham |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Phil Allison wrote:
** The spec say no such thing - YOU ****ING IDIOT !! After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html your above rage and abuse are quite expected. That anyone would take anything you say very seriously should be laughable. HAND |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html Bwahahahahahahahahahaha ! Grow Up ! Graham |
#24
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Protection of investment
Phil Allison wrote:
** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !! Then **** OFF !! ........ Phil My my, the others on Usenet are correct. You have quite an anger management issue don't you. |
#25
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**** OFF TROLL IDIOT
"Windsor ****wit Fox" ** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !! Then **** OFF !! You ASD ****ed MORON !! ......... Phil |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil is correct here and some amps could be be damaged if the tweeter is disconnected if a fuse in series with it blows. I have had to repair the damage done with over driven amps at end of school year parties where the speakers have fried, but amp fuses didn't blow, then the crossovers melted, and finally the amp thermalled out with lots of fused output and driver bjts. The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage had occurred. Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even polyswitches. But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help stop the smoke. Okay, I don't plan on over driving any amps, I have a Carver M 1.5t and a Bryston 4B and they stay well below clipping. I am most worried about as someone mentioned earlier sudden spikes and such and I know distortion is the enemy more than power and the Mirage M1s are recommended for an amp of 100 to 500 watts. So I may be overly worried about a ghost here since neither amp should cause damage if kept below the clip point and used with certain reason. And as I said the damage could have been done by the former owner. I'm just grasping at trying to keep from blowing what is now a non existent component. If there is a C&L second order crossover filter then this becomes a low impedance resonant LC circuit of low Z at the Xover F without being loaded by the the tweeter if a fuse blows. To be able to place a safety fuse of LOW AMP VALUE in series with a tweeter where there is an L&C filter, the fuse should be ahead of the C&L filter. If there is only a C in series with the tweeter, the fuse should still be ahead of the C. Well, IDK WTF is in there. I can dig in and see the crossover in the M7si speakers by removing the front woofer, but not in the M1 speakers. There are wooden baffles inside the cabinet that keep you from seeing them. Now both the M1 and M7si are wired to be biamplified and they have jumper wires for using a single amp. The fuse could be placed at that point, but I'm sure there would be a consequence of a fuse that would protect the tweeter would be too small and blow too easily when put in front of both midranges and tweeters. I should also mention that on the M1 there is two of everything, high, mid and low. The lowest value fuse should be used without causing nuisance blows at normal levels. Continuous power handling by tweeters is often no more than 10% of the rated continuous input power so if it says 100W on the box, assume the tweeter could take no more tha 10 watts. A tweeter of 5.2ohms with 10 watts can take only 7.2Vrms applied, or 1.38 amps,rms, so a 0.5A fuse could be tried first. If that blows at levels desired, use 1A, and if that blows, don't ever assume that a 1.5A will stop a tweeter from frying itself to death. Patrick Turner. This is what I had exactly planned, BUTT... what the plan was and recommended by a number of people to put it in line at the tweeter. But if this has a high chance of causing damage to one of these two amps without blowing the fuse in the amp, I'm not so sure about doing it. Hell the M 1.5t doesn't even have speaker fuses but that amp is a bit different. But like I said when said fuse blows the amp is not going to be in an "abused" state, it may be at clip point but just barely. Another point on previous abuse. The M1 is an extremely inefficient speaker. I've run the Carver amp on Altecs, Electro Voices, Wharfdales, University, JBL, B&W and Snell and the previous owner on Thiels, and Von Schweikert's and it is incredibly hard to clip that amp, especially at 4 ohms. On the M1s I can "exhaust the headroom" in an instant, so I can see how a previous owner could have easily knocked out a tweeter. More than once.... |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Patrick Turner wrote:
The amp fuses only blew after major heat damage had occurred. Fuses to each driver ahead of crossovers were not fitted, and not even polyswitches. But I have seen exploded polyswitches, so apart from active protection which shuts down the amp then fuses can if chosen well, help stop the smoke. This prodded another thought. The Carver has some type of fangled protection circuit, I've seen them on pro audio racks get dead shorted, as in the wires twisted together and the only thing that happens other than the silence is the red protect LED lights. But the Bryston has two speaker fuses, 3AG and different amperage depending on voltage. Now I've only had this amp a couple of weeks and havn't gone a reading, but I assume that means input/line voltage. Would it be advantageous to use a slightly (1/2A) lower rated fuse, or possibly use a fast blow rather than slow blow? I don't want to start a tin ear war but are there reasons for using a slow blow fuse other than changing more often or "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? BTW, I'm an audiophile; a listener and a tweaker not an engineer. So thanks for the good information without the abuse. :-P |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
Eeyore wrote:
WindsorFox wrote: After reading the page: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rutlidge/alanindex.html Bwahahahahahahahahahaha ! Grow Up ! Graham Right. Didn't you type "plonk" some time back? In which case you should not be able to see my posts. |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! Graham |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"WindsorFox" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "WindsorFox" wrote in message In order to protect my extremely rare tweeters, what size fuse should I use to blow at say 100 watts and at 200 watts?? Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical steps if they blow too often. Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had someone locally say the same thing but he suggested starting as 1/2 amp. I was concerned with the DC resistance of the fuse. A 0.5 amp fuse has a DCR of about 0.6 ohms, while a 1 amp fuse has a DCR of about 0.2 ohms. |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! Graham What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage. west |
#32
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**** OFF TROLL IDIOT
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Windsor ****wit Fox" ** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !! Then **** OFF !! You ASD ****ed MORON !! You know ... I think we might all miss Phil if he ever went away. west ........ Phil |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
WindsorFox said:
Tweeters - start with one amp quick blow fuses, and increase in logical steps if they blow too often. Pretty much the answer I was hoping for, I've had someone locally say the same thing but he suggested starting as 1/2 amp. FWIW, the tweeter fuses in my Maggies are 1.5 amps. Never had one blowing up on me, but then the biggest amp they've seen is a Krell KSA80. -- - Maggies are an addiction for life. - |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Protection of investment
west wrote: "Eeyore" wrote in message ... WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! Graham What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage. west With all due respect to Windsor and others, IMHO, Phil is right on the issue and I have echoed his concerns and solutions offered. Phil can be difficult at times, and that's never going to change. But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels, then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit the driver concerned. I have fused a few tweeters myself, despite care taken. Don't say you have not been warned. Distortion caused by the presence of fuses is real, but usually a lot lower than distortions elsewhere in the system. I simply never ever intentionally run a system at a level that will challenge a tweeter's life. If the thread degenerates into a trade of insults, you only have yourselves to blame. Patrick Turner. |
#35
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**** OFF TROLL IDIOT
west wrote:
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... "Windsor ****wit Fox" ** READ what has been said to you - ****WIT !! Then **** OFF !! You ASD ****ed MORON !! You know ... I think we might all miss Phil if he ever went away. west ........ Phil All groups need their ko0ks, it's just the audio groups seem to have more than their fair share. -- "Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb |
#36
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Protection of investment
west wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! Graham What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage. Of course and if he can not tell what amperage rating the fuse is in an amplifier just by listening to it, then he may as well just go with a Bose system. I've hear the Bose Wave can replace an entire bookcase filled with stereo equipment.... -- "Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb |
#37
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Protection of investment
Patrick Turner wrote:
west wrote: "Eeyore" wrote in message ... WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! Graham What's wrong with you Graham? There have been a plethera of double blind studies that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage. west With all due respect to Windsor and others, IMHO, Phil is right on the issue and I have echoed his concerns and solutions offered. Phil can be difficult at times, and that's never going to change. But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels, then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit the driver concerned. I have fused a few tweeters myself, despite care taken. Don't say you have not been warned. The OE tweeters are not particularly delicate. They have a heavy 3" magnet and 3/4" ferro fluid cooled coil -- "Yes, it is a good thing you are handy, as you clearly suck at being smart." - Herb |
#38
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Protection of investment
west wrote: "Eeyore" wrote WindsorFox wrote: "The tinny, poor sound stage" that you get from a fast blow fuse? Oh Good Lord ! What's wrong with you Graham? Absolutely nothing at all. There have been a plethera of double blind studies Cite ? that show slow-blow fuses produce a wider but not deeper sound stage. And some ppl also think gold plated mains lead change the sound too ! Graham |
#39
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Protection of investment
Patrick Turner wrote: But if you want to use delicate tweeters at high system power levels, then you invite tweeter failure without very adequate fusing to suit the driver concerned. This is very true and a fuse will also add compression due to thermally created resistance increase. The best solution here is a relay based tweeter protector. Graham |
#40
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**** OFF TROLL IDIOT
WindsorFox wrote: All groups need their ko0ks, it's just the audio groups seem to have more than their fair share. You're certainly about as k00ky as they come ! Graham |
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