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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them. The only
way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the same albums
on vinyl!

It's very simple to see: For Example - Rip your favorite classic rock
artist - Yes, Bob Seger, etc, as a WAV or MP3, and load that rip into
Audacity or ProTools. If you see squared off sections of that
waveform(where the loudest portions of the song seem to 'flatten out',
that means something has been done to it.

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.


Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!


Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.


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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 15, 10:59*pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.


Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!


Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.

__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.

Utter..

-CC
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.



Can be compared to badly mastered CD's, but can NEVER match as close as is
possible with a properly mastered CD.
NO need to confuse technical issues with human error, that takes place
regardless.


That's

what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?
JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.



No argument, but most here realised that was happening two decades ago! And
vinyl was not the answer to anything.

Trevor.


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Steve King Steve King is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.


Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!


Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and
otherwise, (compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter,
FR errors etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original
master tape is to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN
be transferred to CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of
course) but it NEVER could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.


I don't think that's right. Or, at least IMO, it is exaggerated. In my
second studio engineering job in 1966 I spent my first year mostly in the
laquer channel, as we called it then. For the first few months using a
Scully lathe, a Neumann monaural cutting head, driven by a custom amplifier
(tubes), fed from a chain with a modified Ampex 300 deck, a Fairchild 660
limiter, and a Conax high frequency limiter. Later, we switched to a
Westrex stereo cutting head, driven by a Westrex amplifier, Firchild 670,
and dual Conax. We also had a range of patchable EQ, mostly Pultec and
Cinema Engineering. We had one approach to mastering if we were cutting a
master for a 45 rpm single for airplay, another for the same song for the
release version, and a completely different approach for cutting a reference
acetate for the producer to take home for evaluation of the mix. For the
latter we used practically no limiting, minimal EQ or none. Getting level
on the disk was not an issue, just the opposite of what we did for airplay
(DJ Pressings), where noise and the restricted frequency response of AM
radio was an issue. The reference acetates didn't have to have a lot of
level to overcome noise, because the reference disc was only expected to be
played a few times. Those discs sounded great. Much closer to the master
tape than you'd probably believe. System errors of wow, flutter, and rumble
were pretty much insignificant on well maintained equipment, except on the
lowest levels of classical music.

Steve King




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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...

I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.


Welcome to the 20th century :-)

The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!


Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)

Trevor.

__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.


By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes?

That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED.


Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the
theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations
of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical
calculation.

And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?


People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the
bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their
songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of
the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be
as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area
of coverage.

The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their
bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take
up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their
management. That's who pays the engineers.

Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and
startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for
example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time.

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! Utter stupidity.


See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by
their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

Steve King wrote:
reference disc was only expected to be played a few times. Those
discs sounded great. Much closer to the master tape than you'd
probably believe.


But high and low frequencies hadn't been invented back thern ....

geoff


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RD Jones RD Jones is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

http://www.turnmeup.org
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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 16, 5:25*am, RD Jones wrote:
http://www.turnmeup.org

_______________

Anyone on R.A.P., and maybe on R.A.T, should know that organization
and their work by now. All they need is more awareness and
recognition of their good work. But thanks for the reminder.

-CC
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?

On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?


You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records.

Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow
them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do.

Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the
way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not
concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to
shows by your local artists playing in small venues without
huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about
some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff


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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 16, 1:07*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message


....


I have for the last week borrowed several dozen CDs from the local
library and am dismayed to find that even many 1980s era first-gen CDs
of musicians from WW2 up to that point have had some loudness
processing(compression, remastering, remixing) done to them.


Welcome to the 20th century :-)


The only way to hear this stuff properly is if you still have the
same albums on vinyl!


Nope, since ALL vinyl discs had some processing, intentional and otherwise,
(compression, bass roll off, distortion, rumble, wow, flutter, FR errors
etc) the only way to hear what it sounds like on the original master tape is
to listen to the original master tape. Of course that CAN be transferred to
CD now WITHOUT any further change (not often is of course) but it NEVER
could be with vinyl. (and still can't)


Trevor.

__________________
The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like.


By that statement shall I assume you have heard the master tapes?

That's
what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED.


Digital audio systems function in an analog realm, and regardless of the
theoretical dydnamic range of the digital system, practical limitations
of the analog realm hold dynamic range well below the theoretical
calculation.

And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?


People have jobs. Jobs come with bosses. Pay comes with satisfying the
bosses. For decades musicians, managers, and labels have wanted their
songs to be loud on the radio to catch and help hold the attention of
the listener(s). Radio station operators have wanted their station to be
as loud as possible, to achieve better signal delivery within their area
of coverage.

The engineers job is to satisfy the requirements of their
bosses/clients, and that's not you, in this case. So the place to take
up the battle is at the labels, and with the artists and their
management. That's who pays the engineers.

Furthemore, some engineers can make things sound amazingly loud and
startlingly good. Check out Cookie Marenco's work with Tony Furtado, for
example. Loud as all get out, and gorgeous at the same time.

JAM THE ENTIRE DYNAMIC RANGE OF "SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT"(Sir
Elton John) INTO A TWO DECIBEL RANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DIGITAL VU
SCALE!! *Utter stupidity.


See above and stop blaming the engineers for doing the job specified by
their bosses. Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://www.you...ankandShaidri- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted t

_________________
Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said
returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice.
And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have
received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic
of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing
*potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO
LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK
EQUIPMENT?

That is the question.

-CC

ps: caps locks are mockery of LOUDNESS WAR not yelling!
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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 16, 8:01*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/15/2012 10:19 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Who do we write to, the record labels, the owners/copyright holders of
the works?


You don't write to anyone. You stop buying records.

Oh, wait a minute . . . you don't buy records, you borrow
them from the library. So I guess there's nothing you can do.

Well, maybe you can change the music you listen to, or the
way you listen to music. Go to some concerts, but not
concerts of the artists producing "too loud" CDs, go to
shows by your local artists playing in small venues without
huge sound systems. Then you can talk to your friends about
some of the music you're hearing that they're missing out on.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

__________________
There's nothing wrong with the fact that I am fan of a lot of so-
called mainstream stuff. A lot of *older* mainstream stuff! (Boston,
Beatles, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Journey, Rush, Run DMC, Diana Ross,
Beethoven, Liszt) ok not all of that is mainstream, but I want to hear
it again, as close to first pressing as possible! Those CDs are still
out there - mainly in peoples homes, or at the library or the local
Goodwill.

I have been in plenty of venues where live music is offered, and have
heard from reasonably good to pretty bad. On the bad end, it's just
too LOUD(outdoors at Veterans Park, so to speak). On the good end I
can hear the lyrics above the music(think coffee shop acoustic). I
know I can't get that on vinyl, CD or MP3. I just want the best those
formats can offer. I've always said if you feed a format right it can
sound great.

-CC
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:
Well stated. But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. Like you said
returns are not a good thing to a company. But we also have a voice.


The problem is that for the most part, the consumer doesn't give a damn
about sound quality. When I started, the consumer was listening to
overdriven 45s with a cheap ceramic cartridge through an 8" full range
speaker. Now they are listening to squashed MP3 files on their ipod
through headphones they bought at the dollar store.

Point out to them that they could get uncompressed versions of the music
and they'll say it's too much trouble, and that they can get more songs
on their ipod this way.

And that voice can go up the chain until the right ears/eyes have
received it. But it is a complicated chain - which is the main topic
of this thread: who to stick it in the craw of that squeezing
*potentially* 90dB of dynamic range into 1-2 dB of sonic space IS NO
LONGER ACCEPTABLE and IS HARMFUL TO BOTH OUR EARS AND PLAYBACK
EQUIPMENT?


People who care about sound quality are very much a niche market.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Arny Krueger[_4_] Arny Krueger[_4_] is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:

The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. That's
what should be aimed for. As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?


Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an
artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the
basic technology.

But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and
cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded
better but mostly the digital sounded better.

All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those
generalizations that compare digital and analog media.

In the early 1980s when CDs first came out, at least 90% or more of the
reissues or new issues that came out were dramatically improved by being
released from the surly bonds of analog media technology. The other 10% (or
less) were screw-ups. One common problem was lack of access to the best
possible master tape. One particularly common problem was use of a cutting
master where a grand master should have been used. Of course you can't make
CDs from master tapes that were lost, destroyed or written over.

The analog media versions of my favorite artists whether pop, rock or
classical were so generally bad in comparison that my Thorens turntable and
Revox tape recorder were liquidated to buy more CDs.

IME starting with the early 90s, the odds of getting a good digital transfer
started dropping. My kids who were then teenagers were the victims. For
example, while my early 80s digital transfers of whole albums by say Simon
and Garfunkel were great, my kids were having "Best of" compendiums foisted
off on them that were overcompressed crap.





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Jeff Henig Jeff Henig is offline
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"Arny Krueger" wrote:


All generalizations are false,


In general, anyway... (;^)

--
---Jeff


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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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On Feb 16, 9:00*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 10:59 pm, "Trevor" wrote:

The original vinyl(and cassette of that time) are a lot CLOSER - not
exact - but closer - to what the studio master sounded like. *That's
what should be aimed for. *As I've said repeatedly, digital leveled
the playing field with none of the hiss issues of tape, the noise/low
freq. issues of LPs, and a dynamic range equal to cassette's and LP's
COMBINED. *And what do these idiots- Excyoooz me - "ENGINEERS" do?


Well you have the part about bad sounding media being an
artistic/business/enginering issue and not any inherent problem with the
basic technology.

But did the majority of CDs sound worse than the corresponding LPs and
cassettes? Horsefeathers. Reality is that sometimes the analog sounded
better but mostly the digital sounded better.

All generalizations are false, and that applies very well those
generalizations that compare digital and analog media.

_____________________
I didn't intend to generalize, except with regards to most "Greatest
Hits" and "Remastereds" I've heard - and ANALYZED via Pro Tools or
Audacity.

And when I found out that even some "original" CDs - of the original
albums themselves, had the bloated and/or brickwalled waveform
appearance to their tracks - I knew something was wrong.

So I don't want this degenerating into a debate over CD vs LP(heaven
knows there's enough heated threads about that debate out there
already!!).

I'm just trying to bang a pot, before its too late, that some really
great works out there may never be heard in all their glory after
enough decades have passed. And to me, an unaltered non-remastered
"Bohemian Rhapsody"(Queen) or the aforementioned "Someone Saved My
Life Tonight"(Sir Elton John) sound great no matter what sized
speakers I play them on - because they were engineered/mastered
properly!

As an aside, I'm hearing a lot of people saying how much more details
they can hear on the 2009 Beatles Boxed Sets, particularly on the
Stereo version. Hmmm. I wonder why! I'll pass - my 1980s
era releases are just fine.

-CC

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Jeff Henig wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


All generalizations are false,


In general, anyway... (;^)


And 87.3% of all statistics are simply made up on the spot.

geoff


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On Feb 16, 3:26*pm, "geoff" wrote:


And 87.3% of all statistics are simply made up on the spot.

geoff

_____________
That would definitely apply over at NewsCorp's outlet. LOL!

-CC
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On Feb 16, 8:37*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote:
Well stated. *But ultimately, the CONSUMER is the boss. *Like you said
returns are not a good thing to a company. *But we also have a voice.


The problem is that for the most part, the consumer doesn't give a damn
about sound quality.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

_____________
And that's pretty sad! Consumers don't know how much power they have
- both their written voices and in their pocketbooks if they just took
the time. It's because of indifference that increasingly loudened
reissues and remasters of remasters of remasters-HELP I'M STUCK!!! are
being heaped on us.

I aspire to be an educational source in helping consumers understand
how to get the music back in their music.

-CC

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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Don't buy products that you find unsatisfactory. Return
that which you have bought that falls short and demand a refund. Talk is
cheap, while returned product is very expensive.


Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?

Trevor.




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On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?


That's tough, just like returning software. But you can
simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial
listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the
last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist
that sounded good to your ears?

Just say no.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
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On Feb 17, 7:32*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?


That's tough, just like returning software. But you can
simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial
listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the
last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist
that sounded good to your ears?

Just say no.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

_______________
And not everyone out there has Audacity or ProTools to load stuff into
and look for signs of muddling either!

I borrowed http://www.bizrate.com/rock-pop-music/1193525.html from a
friend and was actually VERY impressed with the sound! - until I
ripped a few tracks into Audacity.

The loudest swells on "Captain Jack" and "Piano Man" were all squared
off, and the loudest portions of the softer sections were "extended"
to match the heights of those crescendos. BOY WAS I EASILY FOOLED!

-CC
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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 17, 1:12*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/17/2012


unless you categorically object to anything sounding different than
it did in the control room when originally recorded.



http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

______
You have, in the above words, described me to a 'T'!
Good to meet you; How are you today?

-CC
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia.
Can you really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?


That's tough, just like returning software. But you can
simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial
listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the
last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist
that sounded good to your ears?

Just say no.


Efect of that is simply to kill off CDs as a medium, not to improve music
productioon.

geoff


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can
you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?


That's tough, just like returning software. But you can simply stop buying
CDs. You probably don't need a trial listen to tell what you aren't going
to like. When was the last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name
artist that sounded good to your ears?
Just say no.


Right, that's what I do rather than needlessly wasting my time arguing with
a shop assistant when I know I can't win. CD's, DVD's, software etc. seems
to be exempt from most consumer laws because of the possibilty of people
copying them and taking them back. If the disk is faulty you get a
replacement with exactly the same disk program, but if you don't like what
is recorded, too bad. The sad part is once upon a time every record store
had facilities to play disks before you bought them, and sadly in the days
of vinyl they were often played on crap and put back on the shelf :-( These
days when it should be easier, and wear doesn't happen, the practice is
almost extinct. Of course the playback equipment used wouldn't help much for
judging real sound quality anyway. However there are often free tracks or
partial tracks to download on the net now, (and I won't mention illegal
downloads, oops just did :-) and even 320kbs MP3 is good enough to judge how
badly a record is mastered.

Trevor.







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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?


"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
And not everyone out there has Audacity or ProTools to load stuff into
and look for signs of muddling either!


Since Audacity is free, that's only because they don't want to. Obviously
most record buyers don't care.

Trevor.


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Ralph Barone[_2_] Ralph Barone[_2_] is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:
On Feb 17, 7:32 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/16/2012 7:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck trying to get a refund at any record store in Australia. Can you
really do that in the USA? Have you actually done it?


That's tough, just like returning software. But you can
simply stop buying CDs. You probably don't need a trial
listen to tell what you aren't going to like. When was the
last time you bought a commercial CD of a big name artist
that sounded good to your ears?

Just say no.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

_______________
And not everyone out there has Audacity or ProTools to load stuff into
and look for signs of muddling either!

I borrowed http://www.bizrate.com/rock-pop-music/1193525.html from a
friend and was actually VERY impressed with the sound! - until I
ripped a few tracks into Audacity.

The loudest swells on "Captain Jack" and "Piano Man" were all squared
off, and the loudest portions of the softer sections were "extended"
to match the heights of those crescendos. BOY WAS I EASILY FOOLED!

-CC


So I have to ask - are you listening with your ears or your eyes?
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:

On Feb 17, 1:12 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/17/2012


unless you categorically object to anything sounding different than
it did in the control room when originally recorded.



http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

______
You have, in the above words, described me to a 'T'!
Good to meet you; How are you today?


So then you have to ask, "Which control room?" And how to get your
listening room to match?

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
  #29   Report Post  
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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 17, 10:01*pm, Ralph Barone wrote:


So I have to ask - are you listening with your ears or your eyes?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

_______

Alright Ralph, chew on this: http://lithe.files.wordpress.com/200...udness_war.jpg

Now you tell me which of those more accurately represents the original
waveform of that song. And if you think the waveform on the bottom
represents a better sounding product that is your PREFERENCE but it is
NOT ACCURATE.

Educate yourself some before asking stupid questions.

-CC

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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 18, 3:01*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote:


You have, in the above words, described me to a 'T'!
Good to meet you; How are you today?


So then you have to ask, "Which control room?" And how to get your
listening room to match?

--

________________
Same goes for you Hank - I don't need a controlled studio environment
to appreciate good recordings. So enough with the stupid questions on
this thread. Go to turnmeup. Or, google " loudness war " and visit
some some of the dozens of websites on the issue.

-CC



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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?

On 2/17/2012 7:53 PM, geoff wrote:

Efect of that is simply to kill off CDs as a medium, not to improve music
productioon.


Well, if you don't like the next thing that comes out, don't
buy it either. Get a banjo and learn to play it.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
  #32   Report Post  
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Posts: 8,744
Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?

On 2/18/2012 6:50 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Alright Ralph, chew on this: http://lithe.files.wordpress.com/200...udness_war.jpg

Now you tell me which of those more accurately represents the original
waveform of that song. And if you think the waveform on the bottom
represents a better sounding product that is your PREFERENCE but it is
NOT ACCURATE.


You've been asked a couple of times and you've either
ignored the question or given a sarcastic answer. Are you
interested in how the music sounds to your ears, or do you
just assume that a waveform that looks a certain way won't
sound good and that's what you want to complain about?

How do you listen to music (assuming that you still actually
do) anyway? Do you have a very accurate room, a comfy chair,
and shut out all outside influences so you can pay 100%
attention to what's coming out of your $50,000 speakers?

I listen to the radio all the time. I listen to radio over
the Internet much of the time. But I listen to program
material that I enjoy hearing while I'm doing other things,
and now that I no longer have to listen to flutter, any
changes between the microphone and my speakers don't bother
me. What I'm listening to is better than silence. And if it
was any better quality, I'd risk getting distracted from
what I really need to do.

I do, occasionally, sit on the living room couch, put on a
CD or LP, and just listen. But I listen for the music, not
what's wrong with the production or engineering. I don't
have any CDs or LPs that I don't like.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
  #33   Report Post  
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:

On Feb 18, 3:01 am, (hank alrich) wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote:


You have, in the above words, described me to a 'T'!
Good to meet you; How are you today?


So then you have to ask, "Which control room?" And how to get your
listening room to match?

--

________________
Same goes for you Hank - I don't need a controlled studio environment
to appreciate good recordings. So enough with the stupid questions on
this thread. Go to turnmeup. Or, google " loudness war " and visit
some some of the dozens of websites on the issue.

-CC


Chris, for chrissakes, when I go to the mastering session we don't crush
the **** right out of the music. I'm in the trenches with this sutff and
working to offer music that does not suffer from the abuse that you're
soapboxing about.

Did you just start listening to music? This loudness crap has been an
issue since before CD's showed up in the first place.

And to be clear here, I'm not the one who said I expected to hear it
just like it sounded in the control room and the main cause of that is
that I have been in a lot of control rooms. That was the basis for my
comment. Some desires are realistic, potentially attainable. That one is
not _unless you can make your listening space match the very control
room in which the master mix was created_. Short of that you're ****ed
on that one, and you might as well realize it before you fall off the
soapbox.

I went to turnmeup within a few days of it coming into existence. Where
you been?

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

ChrisCoaster wrote:

On Feb 17, 10:01 pm, Ralph Barone wrote:


So I have to ask - are you listening with your ears or your eyes?- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

_______


Educate yourself some before asking stupid questions.

-CC


So you're lsitening with your eyes. Basic physiology suggests something
there is amiss.

And to hell with with you telling people pointing out basic **** to you
to stop with the stupid questions.

Apparently the loudness bug just crawled up your ass. Some of us are not
impressed. Some of us have been noticing that bug for decades. Some of
us work to keep it out of our music. You're not onto something new here.
**** all, man, you JUST found out about turnmeup...

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 2/18/2012 6:50 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Alright Ralph, chew on this:
http://lithe.files.wordpress.com/200...udness_war.jpg

Now you tell me which of those more accurately represents the original
waveform of that song. And if you think the waveform on the bottom
represents a better sounding product that is your PREFERENCE but it is
NOT ACCURATE.


You've been asked a couple of times and you've either
ignored the question or given a sarcastic answer. Are you
interested in how the music sounds to your ears, or do you
just assume that a waveform that looks a certain way won't
sound good and that's what you want to complain about?


That is why I suggested he check out Cookie Marenco's production of Tony
Furtado. One may perceive therein a discrepancy between what one hears
and what one's eyes might suggest one expect to hear.

How do you listen to music (assuming that you still actually
do) anyway? Do you have a very accurate room, a comfy chair,
and shut out all outside influences so you can pay 100%
attention to what's coming out of your $50,000 speakers?

I listen to the radio all the time. I listen to radio over
the Internet much of the time. But I listen to program
material that I enjoy hearing while I'm doing other things,
and now that I no longer have to listen to flutter, any
changes between the microphone and my speakers don't bother
me. What I'm listening to is better than silence. And if it
was any better quality, I'd risk getting distracted from
what I really need to do.

I do, occasionally, sit on the living room couch, put on a
CD or LP, and just listen. But I listen for the music, not
what's wrong with the production or engineering. I don't
have any CDs or LPs that I don't like.


Fancy that!

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri


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Jeff Henig Jeff Henig is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/18/2012 6:50 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Alright Ralph, chew on this: http://lithe.files.wordpress.com/200...udness_war.jpg

Now you tell me which of those more accurately represents the original
waveform of that song. And if you think the waveform on the bottom
represents a better sounding product that is your PREFERENCE but it is
NOT ACCURATE.


You've been asked a couple of times and you've either ignored the
question or given a sarcastic answer. Are you interested in how the music
sounds to your ears, or do you just assume that a waveform that looks a
certain way won't sound good and that's what you want to complain about?

How do you listen to music (assuming that you still actually do) anyway?
Do you have a very accurate room, a comfy chair, and shut out all outside
influences so you can pay 100% attention to what's coming out of your $50,000 speakers?

I listen to the radio all the time. I listen to radio over the Internet
much of the time. But I listen to program material that I enjoy hearing
while I'm doing other things, and now that I no longer have to listen to
flutter, any changes between the microphone and my speakers don't bother
me. What I'm listening to is better than silence. And if it was any
better quality, I'd risk getting distracted from what I really need to do.

I do, occasionally, sit on the living room couch, put on a CD or LP, and
just listen. But I listen for the music, not what's wrong with the
production or engineering. I don't have any CDs or LPs that I don't like.


Sometimes I like to listen in the car while driving. That's when lowering
the dynamic range a tad can actually help me enjoy the sounds a bit better.
Not having to continually reach for the volume knob is really nice. MP3s or
some compression may not be so bad for this application.

OTOH, I don't want it all squashed in my headphones or in the living room.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me at least, different situations
require different dynamics.

--
---Jeff
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Ralph Barone[_2_] Ralph Barone[_2_] is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/18/2012 6:50 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:

Alright Ralph, chew on this: http://lithe.files.wordpress.com/200...udness_war.jpg

Now you tell me which of those more accurately represents the original
waveform of that song. And if you think the waveform on the bottom
represents a better sounding product that is your PREFERENCE but it is
NOT ACCURATE.


You've been asked a couple of times and you've either ignored the
question or given a sarcastic answer. Are you interested in how the music
sounds to your ears, or do you just assume that a waveform that looks a
certain way won't sound good and that's what you want to complain about?

How do you listen to music (assuming that you still actually do) anyway?
Do you have a very accurate room, a comfy chair, and shut out all outside
influences so you can pay 100% attention to what's coming out of your $50,000 speakers?

I listen to the radio all the time. I listen to radio over the Internet
much of the time. But I listen to program material that I enjoy hearing
while I'm doing other things, and now that I no longer have to listen to
flutter, any changes between the microphone and my speakers don't bother
me. What I'm listening to is better than silence. And if it was any
better quality, I'd risk getting distracted from what I really need to do.

I do, occasionally, sit on the living room couch, put on a CD or LP, and
just listen. But I listen for the music, not what's wrong with the
production or engineering. I don't have any CDs or LPs that I don't like.



Thanks Mike. That's pretty much my reply to Chris. If it sounds good, then
it's good. Do I advocate hypercompression and aggressive limiting? No. I
also believe that looking at envelopes can be useful in diagnosing why two
copies of what is ostensibly the same recording sound different. However,
the ears (and ultimately, the heart) should be the final judge. If it
sounds good (or if it takes you somewhere emotionally), then it's good.
Period.
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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 18, 1:41*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:


Chris, for chrissakes, when I go to the mastering session we don't crush
the **** right out of the music. I'm in the trenches with this sutff and
working to offer music that does not suffer from the abuse that you're
soapboxing about.

Did you just start listening to music? This loudness crap has been an
issue since before CD's showed up in the first place.

And to be clear here, I'm not the one who said I expected to hear it
just like it sounded in the control room and the main cause of that is
that I have been in a lot of control rooms. That was the basis for my
comment. Some desires are realistic, potentially attainable. That one is
not _unless you can make your listening space match the very control
room in which the master mix was created_. Short of that you're ****ed
on that one, and you might as well realize it before you fall off the
soapbox.

I went to turnmeup within a few days of it coming into existence. Where
you been?

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://www.you...ankandShaidri- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

______________
I'm a late learner, which is better than not learning at all. And I
say, screw the listening environment, screw what format the stuff is
delivered on, or how much my speakers cost! As long as the material
itself is as faithful - AS CAN BE - to what went on in the studio or
live venue - that's all that matters to me. And no "Greatest Hits" or
"Remaster" collection is going to do that for me.

And I didn't say every studio engineer or post-production guy crushes
the music. Just the majority of the major labels.

-CC
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening Existing CDs?

On Feb 18, 2:08*pm, Jeff Henig wrote:

Sometimes I like to listen in the car while driving. That's when lowering
the dynamic range a tad can actually help me enjoy the sounds a bit better.

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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Where Can We Register Our Complaints About Loudening ExistingCDs?

On 2/18/2012 2:08 PM, Jeff Henig wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me at least, different situations
require different dynamics.


You're absolutely right about that. One of the things that
we've all been hoping for is that with digital radio
transmission and digital files, there's data that tells the
player (the device, not the person) how the producer thinks
it should sound and adjusts the dynamic range accordingly.
But it would be important that the user be able to override
that setting



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
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