Hi,

I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided
to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something
that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better.

I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about
a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have
horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have
an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's
loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and
there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto
blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of
the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing
or brining out the flaws in the system.

I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from
my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but
they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In
other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there
now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations,
mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing
one.

In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades

-Front speakers (4x6)
-Rear speakers (6x9)
-New Head unit (if needed)

My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot
of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or
so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If
a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know
that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so
far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point
for the car.

Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations
on how I should proceed?

Thanks
Max

You can also fit a 6 1/2" speaker in the front with a special mounting adaptor. If you want to see what I put in my 99 Cavalier, check it out he

http://php.mayhemkrew.com/myegallery...showgall&gid=7
"Max Holubitsky" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided
to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something
that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better.

I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about
a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have
horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have
an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's
loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and
there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto
blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of
the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing
or brining out the flaws in the system.

I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from
my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but
they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In
other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there
now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations,
mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing
one.

In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades

-Front speakers (4x6)
-Rear speakers (6x9)
-New Head unit (if needed)

My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot
of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or
so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If
a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know
that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so
far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point
for the car.

Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations
on how I should proceed?

Thanks
Max

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:12:12 -0600, Max Holubitsky
wrote:

Hi,

I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided
to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something
that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better.

I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about
a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have
horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have
an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's
loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and
there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto
blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of
the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing
or brining out the flaws in the system.

I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from
my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but
they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In
other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there
now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations,
mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing
one.

In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades

-Front speakers (4x6)
-Rear speakers (6x9)
-New Head unit (if needed)

My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot
of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or
so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If
a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know
that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so
far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point
for the car.

Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations
on how I should proceed?

Thanks
Max

500 bucks canadian!??!?! dude... i bought a pair of 4x6 boston
accoustic speakers for 149 bucks at jb-power center... they are the
best sounding 4x6 i have ever heard... and you could get a dam good
pair of 6x9's for under 200 bucks easily... 500 bucks for 2 pair of
speakers would be getting you some DAM good speakers.

but yah, check out boston acocustics 4x6's

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.



i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock
speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left
over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you
had a deck!

how much were your 4x6 plate clarions?

wrote:

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.


i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock
speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left
over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you
had a deck!

how much were your 4x6 plate clarions?

$120 CDN a pair I think

It's quite straight forward to get the doors apart, the only tricky part are the
clips that hold the inside panel on the door along the top edge. It's easy to get
them off, but lining it up and getting it back together was another story, at
least for me. All is well now though, in fact I don't remember the doors ever
feeling this "tight". I'm not sure if your '03 is any different from my '97. I'm
going to tackle the rears tonight - I want to maintain a totally stock look, so
this should be, um, fun.

I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people
who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's
seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back...
including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly
just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together
without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts,
etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels
over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I
park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the
stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact.

The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I
had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too
bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that.
The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth
than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All
this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio
wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the
fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors
apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.



i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock
speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left
over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you
had a deck!

how much were your 4x6 plate clarions?

Usually on that car, I just fold down the rear seat, remove the push pins holding the trunk side panel in, and unclipping the side covers from behind. Then pull off the rear lid. Usually takes me about under 5 minutes to get em out. But I do it for a living. And you think that is hard, ****, I just worked on a 90 Nissan 300ZX and basically have to remove all the panels in the rear just to get the back speakers out. Now that took me a good 30 minutes to disassemble.
"Max Holubitsky" wrote in message . ca...
I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people
who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's
seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back...
including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly
just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together
without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts,
etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels
over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I
park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the
stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact.

The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I
had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too
bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that.
The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth
than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All
this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio
wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the
fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors
apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.



i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock
speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left
over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you
had a deck!

how much were your 4x6 plate clarions?

Wow, 5 minutes? I'm impressed. I figured I would break the rear lid without taking out the side panels first. This is nice to know in case I ever do it again (eg. say I sell the car). To be honest, once I got over the fear of seeing my car in pieces, and picturing it sitting on blocks at our local pick your part, it was all pretty straight forward. The doors were the same story... a long time ago, I fixed the window mechanism on a '80 Honda Accord, and the door was never the same after, it always rattled... but on this car, the doors have never been tighter than now.

Anyhow, after more listening I think I am starting to realize that my Blaupunkt amplifier isn't really all that great. I've been into home hi-fi for years, and whenever I replace one component, it always shows up all the problems in the remaining components... I see now that car hi-fi isn't much different. Not to mention that now that I've had the car apart, I've noticed all sorts of places where I could run cables to a trunk mounted amplifier. I also noticed that the wires feeding all four speakers are very thin for a 4 ohm speaker... I wouldn't be suprised if I'm loosing some power over the wires! Is there anything special about wire used in cars, with respect to vibration immunity, etc.? I also wouldn't mind being able to roll off the bass going to the front speakers, and accentuate what is going to the rears slightly. I am starting to get the feeling that this is going to turn into another hobby, rather than just a quick upgrade.

One other topic I will address, is actually a question. I've never understood how a trunk mounted subwoofer can have good frequency response, when it is coupled to the car's cabin though the seats, body panels, etc. How is the sound transmitted to the inside of the car cabin, when the subwoofer is located in a sealed trunk? Is this even done in a quality installation, or is some sort of air coupling employed? To me it seems like installing a home subwoofer in a closet.. which is something that obviously would never be done.

"username" wrote in message t...
Usually on that car, I just fold down the rear seat, remove the push pins holding the trunk side panel in, and unclipping the side covers from behind. Then pull off the rear lid. Usually takes me about under 5 minutes to get em out. But I do it for a living. And you think that is hard, ****, I just worked on a 90 Nissan 300ZX and basically have to remove all the panels in the rear just to get the back speakers out. Now that took me a good 30 minutes to disassemble.
"Max Holubitsky" wrote in message . ca...
I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people
who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's
seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back...
including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly
just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together
without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts,
etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels
over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I
park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the
stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact.

The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I
had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too
bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that.
The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth
than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All
this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio
wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:

Thanks for the replies

I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a
tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the
fronts
tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system
sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually
images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some
bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I
removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put
these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors
apart,
and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot,
and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend.



i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock
speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left
over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you
had a deck!

how much were your 4x6 plate clarions?

Max Holubitsky wrote

Anyhow, after more listening I think I am starting to realize that my
Blaupunkt amplifier isn't really all that great.

It begins ...

I've been into home hi-fi for years, and whenever I replace one component,
it always shows up all the problems in the remaining components... I see now
that car hi-fi isn't much different.

It is relentless, although I feel that car audio is more fun to work on then
home.

Not to mention that now that I've had the car apart, I've noticed all
sorts of places where I could run cables to a trunk mounted amplifier.

The one item in this car that I really was pleased with was the grommet in
the firewall thta the factory wiring runs through. It is massive, fairly
easy to get at, and makes installing the power wire for the amp(s) almost
pleasant.

I also noticed that the wires feeding all four speakers are very thin for
a 4 ohm speaker... I wouldn't be suprised if I'm loosing some power over the
wires! Is
there anything special about wire used in cars, with respect to vibration
immunity, etc.?

The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire size
is concerned. You will always lose power over a wire, it has resistance.
Chances are that you wouldn't be able to hear a difference by upgrading to a
larger wire size, but I firmly believe that even if someone just THINKS that
something sounds better, then that is great :-)
There is nothing special about wire used for cars. Any place that you run
wire through a panel, or over a sharp edge, wrap it in wire loom to protect
it.
If you go ahead with upgrading the speaker wire, I would suggest #14. It is
much larger then you need, but still easy to work with and terminate.

I also wouldn't mind being able to roll off the bass going to the front
speakers, and accentuate what is going to the rears slightly.

Using the head unit to power the speakers, you can install a capactior in
series with each of the front speakers to high pass them. 330 microfarad
would highpass them at 120Hz. Rolling off the bass going to the front
speakers will have the effect of accentuating what is going to the rears.

If you install an amp, go with a 4 channel that has a flexible crossover
system built in. This way you will have a number of options for highpassing
the front speakers, but still be able to run the rear speakers full range.

I am starting to get the feeling that this is going to turn into another
hobby, rather than just a quick upgrade.

Understatement of the year :-0

One other topic I will address, is actually a question. I've never
understood how a trunk mounted subwoofer can have good frequency response,
when it is
coupled to the car's cabin though the seats, body panels, etc. How is the
sound transmitted to the inside of the car cabin, when the subwoofer is
located in a
sealed trunk?

The trunk is not sealed, especially in your Cavy with fold down seats. The
only cars I have heard of that had a problem with installing subs in the
trunk were old BMWs that had a firewall between the trunk and the cabin.

Is this even done in a quality installation, or is some sort of air
coupling employed? To me it seems like installing a home subwoofer in a
closet.. which is
something that obviously would never be done.

A couple of items here. The number one reason for installing subs in the
trunk is actually 2 reasons ... space and volume. There is not enough room
in the cabin to properly install a 10" or 12" speaker (not including some of
the extravagant installs that have been done using areas like the front
fenders for enclosures). Also, because the ambient noise level in a moving
car is so high (especially at the low end of the audio spectrum) you need an
excessive volume of bass produced to keep the response flat. The easiest way
to produce a lot of bass is using a large speaker. That being said, if you
could build an enclosure which would be the correct size, and could properly
aim a 6" or 8" driver in a kick panel, you might not need anything else for
bass. For the most part it is easier (and stealthier) to install a large sub
in the trunk. An important, but often overlooked, part of good bass response
in a vehicle is reducing the vibration of the body panels as much as
possible.

Hope any of this helps.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your reply!

It is relentless, although I feel that car audio is more fun to work on then
home.

Car hi-fi seems to have a much larger DIY element to it, so this is
understandable. I also like the fact that a $300 speaker upgrade made such a
huge difference.. in the world of home hi-fi, $300 hardly buys anything.

The one item in this car that I really was pleased with was the grommet in
the firewall thta the factory wiring runs through. It is massive, fairly
easy to get at, and makes installing the power wire for the amp(s) almost
pleasant.

This is good to know... is the trunk the preferred location for an amplifier?
What's a good choice for feeding it from my head unit, Belden mic cable, or
something similar?

The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire size
is concerned.

Sure it does... if you have an 8 ohm speaker, and a 4 ohm speaker, and both are
receiving the same amount of power from an amplifier, the 4 ohm speaker will
draw twice as much current, due to ohm's law. Because of this, the voltage drop
across the speaker wire due to the resistance of the wire will be twice as high.
So in summary, the lower the impedance of the speakers, the thicker the wire
must be, in order to transfer the same amount of power.

In home hi-fi, it is not so much power loss over speaker wires that is a
problem, but rather the fact that an "8 ohm" speaker may be 7 ohms at 40 Hz, and
30 ohms at 70 Hz, etc. This will result in the voltage at the speaker terminals
being higher or lower, depending on the frequency being amplified.

In one installation I did, I was putting a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers
which had very little bottom end into a kitchen. I deliberately used a long run
of 20AWG speaker wire, so that the speaker would have an accentuated bass
response at its resonant frequency. It was not a super hi-fi system, but it did
add enough bottom end that the end result was acceptable. The bass response at
resonance was boosted by not more than a few dB by this setup, but it made a big
difference.

Obviously in a true hi-fi system, you would want the voltage supplied to the
voice coil of the speaker to be as close as is possible to the voltage at the
output of the amplifier.

This is one issue that's been covered to death with home hi-fi, but in the car,
the runs are so much shorter, I am not sure what difference it would really
make.


Using the head unit to power the speakers, you can install a capactior in
series with each of the front speakers to high pass them. 330 microfarad
would highpass them at 120Hz. Rolling off the bass going to the front
speakers will have the effect of accentuating what is going to the rears.


This is an awesome idea, which I didn't even consider. It's practically free
too, and sounds like a great short term solution until I install a proper
amplifier - thanks!

I must say though, that currently my Blaupunkt is clipping before either the
front, OR the rear speakers show any signs of stress.

If you install an amp, go with a 4 channel that has a flexible crossover
system built in. This way you will have a number of options for highpassing
the front speakers, but still be able to run the rear speakers full range.

Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier? Unlike home hi-fi, I
really have no bias with regard to country of origin, or brand, other than the
fact that if there are two products which are equal in every way, I would prefer
to support North American industry. I think 50W RMS. per channel would more
than do the job, but I've also noticed that many car stereo components are not
rated in Watts RMS. Should I aim for higher power on account of this?

Thanks for your excellent explanation about sub woofers, and how to install them
in vehicles. I will take it to heart, and if this hobby continues to grow, I
will likely install a sub woofer in the trunk.

The whole idea of a 6 or 8" woofer installed in the car, in a proper enclosure,
is not without appeal either, because I like to take long road trips (want to go
down the coast, from Vancouver to California next summer), and as much as I like
music I need to have some trunk space too. The Cavalier's trunk isn't exactly
cavernous as it comes from the factory, let alone if I install a large speaker
enclosure into it. I also don't want to disturb access to the spare tire too
drastically. My main priority right now, is getting clean, crisp response, with
plenty of dynamic range, from my four main speakers.

Thanks,

Max

Max Holubitsky wrote
Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your reply!

Car hi-fi seems to have a much larger DIY element to it, so this is
understandable. I also like the fact that a $300 speaker upgrade made such
a
huge difference.. in the world of home hi-fi, $300 hardly buys anything.

Might get you 3' of Kimber Kable :-)

This is good to know... is the trunk the preferred location for an
amplifier?

Usually the trunk is the easiest place to 'fit' and amp, some people squeeze
them under a front seat but that is not going to happen in a Cavalier !

What's a good choice for feeding it from my head unit, Belden mic cable,
or
something similar?

Shielded RCA cables. If you want to maintain fader control (front to rear)
you will need 2 sets of RCAs.

The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire
size
is concerned.

Sure it does... if you have an 8 ohm speaker, and a 4 ohm speaker, and
both are
receiving the same amount of power from an amplifier, the 4 ohm speaker
will
draw twice as much current, due to ohm's law. Because of this, the voltage
drop
across the speaker wire due to the resistance of the wire will be twice as
high.
So in summary, the lower the impedance of the speakers, the thicker the
wire
must be, in order to transfer the same amount of power.

In home hi-fi, it is not so much power loss over speaker wires that is a
problem, but rather the fact that an "8 ohm" speaker may be 7 ohms at 40
Hz, and
30 ohms at 70 Hz, etc. This will result in the voltage at the speaker
terminals
being higher or lower, depending on the frequency being amplified.

In one installation I did, I was putting a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf
speakers
which had very little bottom end into a kitchen. I deliberately used a
long run
of 20AWG speaker wire, so that the speaker would have an accentuated bass
response at its resonant frequency. It was not a super hi-fi system, but
it did
add enough bottom end that the end result was acceptable. The bass
response at
resonance was boosted by not more than a few dB by this setup, but it made
a big
difference.

Obviously in a true hi-fi system, you would want the voltage supplied to
the
voice coil of the speaker to be as close as is possible to the voltage at
the
output of the amplifier.

This is one issue that's been covered to death with home hi-fi, but in the
car,
the runs are so much shorter, I am not sure what difference it would
really
make.

That is a stellar explanation ... and now I feel like a complete idiot
(especially because I am an electrician, and should have realized that on my
own)

I must say though, that currently my Blaupunkt is clipping before either
the
front, OR the rear speakers show any signs of stress.

Not surprising, the rated power of the head unit is a maximum value. RMS
output is closer 15W/channel. This is why an external amp makes such a huge
difference.

Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier?

That is really far to vague a question to answer. Answer the following
questions and I will be able to give an educated response :

1) How much do you want to spend?
2) Do you mind if it is used?
3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future?
4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the
rear speakers?

Unlike home hi-fi, I
really have no bias with regard to country of origin, or brand, other than
the
fact that if there are two products which are equal in every way, I would
prefer
to support North American industry. I think 50W RMS. per channel would
more
than do the job, but I've also noticed that many car stereo components are
not
rated in Watts RMS. Should I aim for higher power on account of this?

No, if you take care to buy from a manufacturer that has a reputation for
realistic or understated ratings 50W/channel is plenty.

Thanks for your excellent explanation about sub woofers, and how to
install them
in vehicles. I will take it to heart, and if this hobby continues to grow,
I
will likely install a sub woofer in the trunk.

The whole idea of a 6 or 8" woofer installed in the car, in a proper
enclosure,
is not without appeal either, because I like to take long road trips (want
to go
down the coast, from Vancouver to California next summer), and as much as
I like
music I need to have some trunk space too. The Cavalier's trunk isn't
exactly
cavernous as it comes from the factory, let alone if I install a large
speaker
enclosure into it. I also don't want to disturb access to the spare tire
too
drastically. My main priority right now, is getting clean, crisp
response, with
plenty of dynamic range, from my four main speakers.

My 10" sub will be installed in a custom fibreglass enclosure moulded to the
cavity on the left side of the trunk. I plan to remove the carpet, build the
enclosure using the body of the car, and then reinstall the carpet so that
it look like there is no speaker. My amp(s) will be mounted on the back of
the rear seats, folding them down still won't be a problem if the install is
done correctly. Finished product = sub and amps in trunk without losing any
space (pretty much).

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Hey,

Thanks for your help... I'll reply point by point,

them under a front seat but that is not going to happen in a Cavalier !


Come to think of it, I do remember seeing an amp under the seat in my friend's
Corolla! Right now I am thinking about mounting the amp upside down on the
bottom of the rear deck, right between and slightly behind the 6x9's, so that it
clears the trunk closing mechanism. Of course, I will have to wait till I get an
amp before I'll know if it's going to fit this way.

Shielded RCA cables. If you want to maintain fader control (front to rear)
you will need 2 sets of RCAs.

Sadly, my head unit only has one set of pre-outs. I have done a little looking
into it, and my options look like:

a) lose fader control

b) adapt front speaker level outputs to feed power amplifier.

I'll run two pairs of RCA cables, just in case I decide to upgrade the head unit
at some later time. I think that option "a" would sound better, because it
avoids the Blaupunkt's cheap integrated output stage. It's not like I ever use
the fader control anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a loss.

(especially because I am an electrician, and should have realized that on my
own)

That's pretty cool - one electrican I knew made an entire custom dual exhaust
system for his '77 Corvette on a conduit bender. I've never seen such beautiful
work before, it fit like a glove.. You guys can be pretty resourceful!

Not surprising, the rated power of the head unit is a maximum value. RMS
output is closer 15W/channel. This is why an external amp makes such a huge
difference.

I don't understand why they can't just be honest with the ratings... it's not
doing anyone any good to claim that my in dash receiver is putting out "210
Watts"

Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier?

That is really far to vague a question to answer. Answer the following
questions and I will be able to give an educated response :

Sorry about that.

1) How much do you want to spend?

Clarion 4x6 plates in the front, and Clarion triaxial 6x9s in the rear. I can't
recall the model numbers, but they are the top of the line in their "power
series", I think. I have no intention to change the speakers, so I want
something that's going to let me get more out of them. I want something just
good enough so that the speakers become the limiting factor (like they should
be), and not the amp.

I know that's not a direct answer to how much I want to spend, but I suppose the
real answer is - whatever it takes, without wasting money. It's not really worth
my time to do a half hearted upgrade that is only slightly better than the
Blaupunkt.

2) Do you mind if it is used?

Not at all, in fact I would prefer it - I'm not going to see this thing, just
hear it, and if I can get better performance for the same dollars then for sure
I'd go for it. The only thing I will avoid at all costs, is stolen equipment -
just no interest in messing around with that stuff.

3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future?

Not in the near future, but eventually. It all depends how long I keep the car.
It's a 1997, with 120,000 Km on it, so it has a few years left.

4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the
rear speakers?

Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything else, I
think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic
electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a sub, I
can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions.

My 10" sub will be installed in a custom fibreglass enclosure moulded to the
cavity on the left side of the trunk. I plan to remove the carpet, build the
enclosure using the body of the car, and then reinstall the carpet so that
it look like there is no speaker. My amp(s) will be mounted on the back of
the rear seats, folding them down still won't be a problem if the install is
done correctly. Finished product = sub and amps in trunk without losing any
space (pretty much).

That sounds like an awesome install. I've never used fibreglass for anything,
and since I live in an apartment, I have to keep my projects shorter than a one
day time frame... so that option is out for me. I was looking at JL Audio's
website a couple days ago, and I noticed that some of their smaller speakers
barely need a cubic foot in a sealed cabinet. I'm going to need to do some
thinking about it, but I have a feeling a sub is going to end up in my trunk
sooner or later. I'm thinking an MDF enclosure of some sort. Maybe I'll even buy
an enclosure, just to make things easier.

Anyhow thanks for the advice

Max

P.S. What sort of car do you have?

Max Holubitsky wrote
Sadly, my head unit only has one set of pre-outs. I have done a little
looking
into it, and my options look like:

a) lose fader control

b) adapt front speaker level outputs to feed power amplifier.

I'll run two pairs of RCA cables, just in case I decide to upgrade the
head unit
at some later time. I think that option "a" would sound better, because it
avoids the Blaupunkt's cheap integrated output stage. It's not like I ever
use
the fader control anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a loss.

If you are not concerned about losing fader control two sets of RCAs will be
fine. I had a minor brain fart during the last post. If you want to keep
fader control and allow for upgrading the deck and adding a sub in the
future you need 3 sets of RCAs. High end decks have a third (and sometimes
fourth, but that is not controlled by the deck volume) RCA output for sub.
This allows you to control the sub from the deck (very useful for tuning).
Alternatively, you can use an active crossover to split up the signal from
one set of RCAs and run everything from there.

That's pretty cool - one electrican I knew made an entire custom dual
exhaust
system for his '77 Corvette on a conduit bender. I've never seen such
beautiful
work before, it fit like a glove.. You guys can be pretty resourceful!

We have our moments :-)

I don't understand why they can't just be honest with the ratings... it's
not
doing anyone any good to claim that my in dash receiver is putting out
"210
Watts"

C'mon now, same thing happens in the home. Kenwood/Pioneer/Sony/JVC ... all
of them make very nice equipment (for a price) but at Future Shop you can
get their crap that says 100W x 5 (puhlease).

1) How much do you want to spend?

Clarion 4x6 plates in the front, and Clarion triaxial 6x9s in the rear. I
can't
recall the model numbers, but they are the top of the line in their "power
series", I think. I have no intention to change the speakers, so I want
something that's going to let me get more out of them. I want something
just
good enough so that the speakers become the limiting factor (like they
should
be), and not the amp.

I know that's not a direct answer to how much I want to spend, but I
suppose the
real answer is - whatever it takes, without wasting money. It's not really
worth
my time to do a half hearted upgrade that is only slightly better than the
Blaupunkt.

That is the best answer you could give.

2) Do you mind if it is used?

Not at all, in fact I would prefer it - I'm not going to see this thing,
just
hear it, and if I can get better performance for the same dollars then for
sure
I'd go for it. The only thing I will avoid at all costs, is stolen
equipment -
just no interest in messing around with that stuff.

I would recommend the A/D/S 450MX that Ge0 is selling right now. If you
can't see a post from him about it, just start a new thread with the heading
"Pinging Ge0"
There are literally hundreds (thousands?) of amps available that would
satisfy your needs. Reputation is the most important factor when choosing
what to go with IMO.

3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future?

Not in the near future, but eventually. It all depends how long I keep the
car.
It's a 1997, with 120,000 Km on it, so it has a few years left.

Who cares about the car ;-) The beauty of car audio is that for the most
part everything can be pulled out and put into the next set of wheels. Also,
if you kept the factory equipment, just put that back in when you ditch the
car.

4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify
the
rear speakers?

Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything
else, I
think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic
electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a
sub, I
can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions.

In that case, you may want to get a 5 channel amp so that you won't need
another amp later to run the sub. Some brand names to look at include (in no
particular order) : PPI, Sony, Alpine, JL Audio, Soundstream, Zapco, Kicker,
* McIntosh *, Orion, Pheonix Gold, Rockford Fosgate, A/D/S, and Xtant.
Many people don't bother ampifying the rear speakers once they have a
subwoofer. They run the rear speakers off the deck and high pass them. Once
you have the sub, the rear speakers are just there for fill. Food for
thought.

That sounds like an awesome install. I've never used fibreglass for
anything,
and since I live in an apartment, I have to keep my projects shorter than
a one
day time frame... so that option is out for me. I was looking at JL
Audio's
website a couple days ago, and I noticed that some of their smaller
speakers
barely need a cubic foot in a sealed cabinet. I'm going to need to do some
thinking about it, but I have a feeling a sub is going to end up in my
trunk
sooner or later. I'm thinking an MDF enclosure of some sort. Maybe I'll
even buy
an enclosure, just to make things easier.

You may want to look into having a shop do a custom stealth box for you, it
will probably cost over CAN$200 but the results would maximize available
trunk space.

P.S. What sort of car do you have?

I have a 2003 Cavalier, a 1994 Sunbird, a 1985 Firebird and a 1969 GMC 1500
Fleetside. The install I was referring to in my posts is the Cavalier. I
have crazy plans for the Sunbird.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Max Holubitsky wrote
4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify
the
rear speakers?

Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything
else, I
think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic
electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a
sub, I
can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions.

I meant to throw this link into my previous post. It is great for
information seeking, and not just amps ... everything car audio.

http://www.teamrocs.com/links/manufacturers.htm


--
Regards,
Dan Snooks