[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Jenn wrote:,
Eeyore wrote:
Jenn wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Eeyore"
wrote
wrote:

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've
heard
it, I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement,
and my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch
Act ONE

with a Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of
the
price
of those others.

What difference does it make ?

You missed the point Graham, which was for Marc to brag on
Usenet
about all the expensive hardware that he has "heard". No doubt
Marc
heard
each TT in a different place, on a different day, with a
different
audio
system attached to it, and probably even with different source
materials.
Yep, really close, fair evaluations. NOT!

Just curious: How else does one evaluate multiple TTs? (other than
the
source materials should be the same, of course)

Side by side I'd hope.

Graham

No, I mean in the real world.

Side by side ? Anything else requires an 'audible memory' and that can be
very flawed.

Graham

So unless you can compare side by side, forget purchasing anything?

In the case of an esoteric turntable, I don't plan buying one so the point is
moot
for me.

Graham

Avoidance of answering noted.

[Sander deWaal]

Eeyore said:


Is it possible that Graham thinks this is a better way to buy a 'table?


I wouldn't even remotely consider using one other than for entertainment purpose any
more.


Well, what would you use a music reproduction system for, other than
entertainment?


Poopie is a fevered follower of the maniacal Dr. Not, who preaches that
"audio is a deadly serious business".


It's only serious when I'm making money from it.

Ok.... who here earns an income from audio ?

Graham

me of course - and........


Me.

Pro audio, that is.
Home hifi ( or rather: myfi ) is just a hobby, I make things for
entertainment, I listen to music (and even on LP) for entertainment.
Usually, this costs money, sometimes I play even when I sell the odd
amp or do a repair.

It gets deadly serious when one of my contraptions catches fire ;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course we could remind our new friend Graham here how his pal Arny
really buys turntables. You know, how he e-mailed me under another
name to ask my what I recommended, and when I told him to buy a Rega
Planar 3, or a Planar 2 with an RB250 arm at the very least,

True, but out of budget.

he went on e-bay and purchased one of the oldest and cheapest P2s he
could
find,
with the crappy, mismatched Mayware arm,

True, and within budget.

and then tried to tell
everyone I didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't sound
very good.

Another one of Marc's paranoid delusions.

Marc again tries to fight substance with fire

In other words, the whole incident backfired on you, and you looked
like an idiot.

That's why you ran away from RAO with your tail between your legs, Marc.
Why did it take so long for you to come back?

But then again, that's the essence of the Marc and Arny Story.

I cut, Marc runs.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

Or when he bought the lowest priced SACD player available

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

and then proclaimed he couldn't hear any difference between SACD and CD,

Never happened.

so those of us who did hear a difference (on better players, and possibly
with better systems) were "wrong".

Reliance on inherently flawed sighted evaluations noted.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

Or when he bought the lowest priced SACD player available

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?


Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the way
of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO. SACD is
the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM destroys the
ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players. It is its DVD-A
that is really strong, and its CD acceptable.

Pay attention.



and then proclaimed he couldn't hear any difference between SACD and CD,

Never happened.

Bull****!


so those of us who did hear a difference (on better players, and possibly
with better systems) were "wrong".

Reliance on inherently flawed sighted evaluations noted.

Versus never having done a careful comparison test (albeit sighted) of SACD
vs CD at all, as I did Arny, using carefully selected, identically sourced
materials? Go back and read the RAHE archives. You had your opinion before
you bought the SACD machine that SACD contributed no audible difference, and
you've continued to assert that since. When challenged as to what kind of
(non-computer) testing you've done to assert that, you've ducked.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

Or when he bought the lowest priced SACD player available

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

and then proclaimed he couldn't hear any difference between SACD and CD,

Never happened.

so those of us who did hear a difference (on better players, and possibly
with better systems) were "wrong".

Reliance on inherently flawed sighted evaluations noted.

======================================
Professor , Doctor Krueger says to Harry:
Reliance on inherently flawed sighted evaluations noted.

Professor, Doctor Krueger watches through a chink in the curtains as
Harry listens. He KNOWS that Harry never compares blind.
Professor,Doctor Krueger has a patented, world famous, approved by all
the Hollywood celebrities, cure. Get it on his ABX website. Guaranteed
to demonstrate that there is no difference between anything and
anything else.
A fan, Ludovic Mirabel.

[[email protected]]

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Apparently Arny and Graham believe it is possible to get side
by side demonstrations of the Continuum, the Rockport, and the
Clearaudio.

Actually we believe that anything else is simply so heavily flawed as to cast very
serious doubt on its worth.

Graham

Who is "we," what is "anything else," and how is it so "heavily
flawed"? Or, in other words, do you actually have a valid opinion
about anything?

Are you approved to answer my posts ?

Graham

Well, you're definitely not approved to steal my material. It's all
copyrighted. You'll hear from my lawyers.

LOL !

I assume the 'anach' is short for anachronistic btw ?

Graham

Close.

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html
http://audioenz.co.nz/
http://www.tonepublications.com/

Boon

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course we could remind our new friend Graham here how his pal Arny
really buys turntables. You know, how he e-mailed me under another
name to ask my what I recommended, and when I told him to buy a Rega
Planar 3, or a Planar 2 with an RB250 arm at the very least,

True, but out of budget.

he went on e-bay and purchased one of the oldest and cheapest P2s he
could
find,
with the crappy, mismatched Mayware arm,

True, and within budget.

and then tried to tell
everyone I didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't sound
very good.

Another one of Marc's paranoid delusions.

Marc again tries to fight substance with fire

In other words, the whole incident backfired on you, and you looked
like an idiot.

That's why you ran away from RAO with your tail between your legs, Marc.
Why did it take so long for you to come back?

But then again, that's the essence of the Marc and Arny Story.

I cut, Marc runs.

Oh, we're trotting out the "Marc only appears here sporadically, so his
views are suspect" pablum, eh? That has to be the stupidest argument
you ever conceived, because all it ever really illustrates is how empty
and meaningless you life is, and that you have to spend it arguing with
strangers on the Internet.

I don't know how many times I can point this out to you. Then again,
one of the best definitions of insanity is when you make the same
mistake over and over and over.

Boon

[[email protected]]

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
What components would you put into the best money-no-object music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp, tuner, DAC, cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've heard it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio Statement, and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act ONE with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the price of those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you on the
list.

Is that some variation on "don't ask me tricky questions I have no answer to" ?

Graham

Yes, you're right. I don't have an answer to the question, "What
difference does it make?" It was a stupid question. It was far from
tricky, however. Obtuse, yes. Tricky, no.

So...... What difference does it make ?

Graham

Whether or not you're tricky or obtuse? That's for you to decide.

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables and arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

Read my articles, slick.

Boon

[ScottW]

wrote in message
ups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
What components would you put into the best money-no-object
music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp, tuner,
DAC, cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've
heard it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement, and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act
ONE with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the price
of those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you on
the
list.

Is that some variation on "don't ask me tricky questions I have no
answer to" ?

Graham

Yes, you're right. I don't have an answer to the question, "What
difference does it make?" It was a stupid question. It was far from
tricky, however. Obtuse, yes. Tricky, no.

So...... What difference does it make ?

Graham

Whether or not you're tricky or obtuse? That's for you to decide.

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables and
arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

Read my articles, slick.

I read the SL1200 direct drive debate....and I can't agree.

If DD TT inherently vibrated into the spindle..it would be very easy
to measure....yet there aren't any measurements that bear this out.
Now you know, I have a DD table and have had belt drives as well.
I don't hear inherent vibrations in DD or speed variations in belts.

I think this whole issue is trumped up crap where the cottage
manufacturers...like Rega really couldn't do DDs. They wanted
to use little AC synchronous motors, cheap and effective
but lacking the torque of a DD that really showed when
taking a Discwasher to a record to get dust off.
So they started a campaign to besmirch DD that
lives to this day.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/te..._sl1200_e.html

Frankly...I don't think DD or belt as a rule amounts to
audible squat. My AR-XA had no audible speed variation
or rumble either and it was as cheap as cheap can be.
Its all cart/arm and the XA arm was awful.
I had a buddy with a XB and the arm bearing wore out.
It litterally fell off off the post.
I had a Technics table
once too...that monster noodle S arm they use
on all their tables is the problem.
That suckers mass is off the charts...medium high my ass.

Hey..Art is s'posed to making his last west coast swing
before leaving for Europe in a couple weeks.
Let me know if you want to get together.

ScottW

[[email protected]]

ScottW wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
What components would you put into the best money-no-object
music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp, tuner,
DAC, cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've
heard it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement, and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act
ONE with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the price
of those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you on
the
list.

Is that some variation on "don't ask me tricky questions I have no
answer to" ?

Graham

Yes, you're right. I don't have an answer to the question, "What
difference does it make?" It was a stupid question. It was far from
tricky, however. Obtuse, yes. Tricky, no.

So...... What difference does it make ?

Graham

Whether or not you're tricky or obtuse? That's for you to decide.

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables and
arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

Read my articles, slick.

I read the SL1200 direct drive debate....and I can't agree.

If DD TT inherently vibrated into the spindle..it would be very easy
to measure....yet there aren't any measurements that bear this out.
Now you know, I have a DD table and have had belt drives as well.
I don't hear inherent vibrations in DD or speed variations in belts.

I think this whole issue is trumped up crap where the cottage
manufacturers...like Rega really couldn't do DDs. They wanted
to use little AC synchronous motors, cheap and effective
but lacking the torque of a DD that really showed when
taking a Discwasher to a record to get dust off.
So they started a campaign to besmirch DD that
lives to this day.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/te..._sl1200_e.html

Frankly...I don't think DD or belt as a rule amounts to
audible squat. My AR-XA had no audible speed variation
or rumble either and it was as cheap as cheap can be.
Its all cart/arm and the XA arm was awful.
I had a buddy with a XB and the arm bearing wore out.
It litterally fell off off the post.
I had a Technics table
once too...that monster noodle S arm they use
on all their tables is the problem.
That suckers mass is off the charts...medium high my ass.

Hey..Art is s'posed to making his last west coast swing
before leaving for Europe in a couple weeks.
Let me know if you want to get together.

ScottW

It's funny, but that column about the SL-1200 generated more
controversy than anything I've ever written in the last eight years.
They went nuts for a few days over Audio Asylum, and a couple of other
places as well. Apparently some people love their SL-1200s. I've
heard a few, however, and they fail to excite me in any way shape or
form. And I still haven't had a single person respond to my offer to
bring theirs over to my house for an audition.

As far as the measurements are concerned, you're the first person I've
heard say that. In addition, I've listen to various DD designs with a
stethoscope, including the SL-1200 and the Denon DP-47, and you can
clearly hear motor noise in the platter, much more so than a good
belt-drive design. Not all DDs are the same, however, and I say that
several times in my articles.

As far as the visit is concerned, that would be great, but it depends
on the date. I'm going on an extended road trip for a month or so
starting in mid-October. I'm visiting my parents in Colorado for a few
days, and then I'm off to the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival in Denver
from October 20-22. I'll be helping to man the TONE Audio room. Then,
I'm going to take the WRX on a whirlwind trip through the last five
states in the US I've never seen. And then, it's off to London.

Jesus Christ, I sound like Howard, only more exciting.

Boon

[ScottW]

wrote in message
oups.com...

ScottW wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
What components would you put into the best
money-no-object
music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp,
tuner,
DAC, cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've
heard it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement, and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act
ONE with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the
price
of those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you
on
the
list.

Is that some variation on "don't ask me tricky questions I have no
answer to" ?

Graham

Yes, you're right. I don't have an answer to the question, "What
difference does it make?" It was a stupid question. It was far
from
tricky, however. Obtuse, yes. Tricky, no.

So...... What difference does it make ?

Graham

Whether or not you're tricky or obtuse? That's for you to decide.

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables
and
arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

Read my articles, slick.

I read the SL1200 direct drive debate....and I can't agree.

If DD TT inherently vibrated into the spindle..it would be very easy
to measure....yet there aren't any measurements that bear this out.
Now you know, I have a DD table and have had belt drives as well.
I don't hear inherent vibrations in DD or speed variations in belts.

I think this whole issue is trumped up crap where the cottage
manufacturers...like Rega really couldn't do DDs. They wanted
to use little AC synchronous motors, cheap and effective
but lacking the torque of a DD that really showed when
taking a Discwasher to a record to get dust off.
So they started a campaign to besmirch DD that
lives to this day.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/te..._sl1200_e.html

Frankly...I don't think DD or belt as a rule amounts to
audible squat. My AR-XA had no audible speed variation
or rumble either and it was as cheap as cheap can be.
Its all cart/arm and the XA arm was awful.
I had a buddy with a XB and the arm bearing wore out.
It litterally fell off off the post.
I had a Technics table
once too...that monster noodle S arm they use
on all their tables is the problem.
That suckers mass is off the charts...medium high my ass.

Hey..Art is s'posed to making his last west coast swing
before leaving for Europe in a couple weeks.
Let me know if you want to get together.

ScottW

It's funny, but that column about the SL-1200 generated more
controversy than anything I've ever written in the last eight years.
They went nuts for a few days over Audio Asylum, and a couple of other
places as well. Apparently some people love their SL-1200s. I've
heard a few, however, and they fail to excite me in any way shape or
form. And I still haven't had a single person respond to my offer to
bring theirs over to my house for an audition.

As far as the measurements are concerned, you're the first person I've
heard say that. In addition, I've listen to various DD designs with a
stethoscope, including the SL-1200 and the Denon DP-47, and you can
clearly hear motor noise in the platter, much more so than a good
belt-drive design.

Were they both aluminum platters?
Aluminum will conduct noise much more effectively than acrylic.
Thats one reason I'm exploring dampening my platter...If I can get it
off, but it does have a big thick heavy and highly damped matt though
replacing it with a conductive fiber matt made no difference to my ears.

Not all DDs are the same, however, and I say that
several times in my articles.

Agreed...which is why I said belt drive or DD 'as a rule' .

As far as the visit is concerned, that would be great, but it depends
on the date. I'm going on an extended road trip for a month or so
starting in mid-October.

I think it would have to be the 7th or 8th.
I lost Arts cell phone number and he's already closed his e-mail
and apparently gone off line...like going underground .
You don't happen to have it in your e-mail archives?
E-mail me if you do.

ScottW

[Eeyore]

Harry Lavo wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the way
of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO. SACD is
the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM destroys the
ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players

How ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Sander deWaal wrote:

Eeyore said:

Ok.... who here earns an income from audio ?

Graham

me of course - and........

Me.

Pro audio, that is.

I didn't know that Sander ! Do tell more.

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

Nope.


There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.

How much clearer do you want ?


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables and arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

As many as you feel appropriate.


Read my articles, slick.

My name's not slick.

Graham

[Harry Lavo]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Harry Lavo wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player
was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the
way
of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO. SACD
is
the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM destroys
the
ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players

How ?

Graham


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience that
otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a recording with
true hall ambience. This isn't theory...it is reality and widely
acknowledged (note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to
decode SACD does this...only that these specific ones do).

[Sander deWaal]

Eeyore said:


Ok.... who here earns an income from audio ?
me of course - and........


Me.

Pro audio, that is.


I didn't know that Sander ! Do tell more.



I thought I'd mentioned that several times before.
www.soundprojects.com , the small monitors X-act and SP2, as well as
the sub SP15 and the new Gluon nearfield monitor are some of my
designs.
I also designed the subamp and filtering for our new SP18 sub and the
electronics for the new Dreamline line-arrays, and did some
modifications on the existing electronics of the other products,
mainly to ease the manufacturing process and the necessary paperwork
to have the electronics produced in China.
Due to my car accident, some of my work has been delegated to others,
otherwise I'd be in China about now..........

Also in the past I did some freelance work for D&R, Dateq and custom
built stuff for several studios.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Eeyore]

Harry Lavo wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player
was capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the
way of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO.
SACD is the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM
destroys the ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players

How ?

Graham


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience that
otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a recording with
true hall ambience. This isn't theory...it is reality and widely
acknowledged (note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to
decode SACD does this...only that these specific ones do).

So why isn't it more widely acknowledged ?

Where does this 'ambience ' go ?

Graham

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Harry Lavo wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player
was capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the
way of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO.
SACD is the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM
destroys the ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players

How ?

Graham


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience that
otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a recording with
true hall ambience. This isn't theory...it is reality and widely
acknowledged (note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to
decode SACD does this...only that these specific ones do).

So why isn't it more widely acknowledged ?

Where does this 'ambience ' go ?

Silicon heaven, where all the calculators go.

Stephen

[Harry Lavo]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Harry Lavo wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player
was capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in
the
way of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including
RAO.
SACD is the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM
destroys the ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players

How ?

Graham


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that
otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a recording
with
true hall ambience. This isn't theory...it is reality and widely
acknowledged (note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to
decode SACD does this...only that these specific ones do).

So why isn't it more widely acknowledged ?


It is. Often mentioned by reviewers, ordinary users on the web.


Where does this 'ambience ' go ?


Where did Cat Stevens go?


Graham

[Eeyore]

Harry Lavo wrote:

Where did Cat Stevens go?

Islamic.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course we could remind our new friend Graham here how his pal
Arny
really buys turntables. You know, how he e-mailed me under another
name to ask my what I recommended, and when I told him to buy a Rega
Planar 3, or a Planar 2 with an RB250 arm at the very least,

True, but out of budget.

he went on e-bay and purchased one of the oldest and cheapest P2s he
could
find,
with the crappy, mismatched Mayware arm,

True, and within budget.

and then tried to tell
everyone I didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't
sound
very good.

Another one of Marc's paranoid delusions.

Marc again tries to fight substance with fire

In other words, the whole incident backfired on you, and you looked
like an idiot.

That's why you ran away from RAO with your tail between your legs, Marc.
Why did it take so long for you to come back?

But then again, that's the essence of the Marc and Arny Story.

I cut, Marc runs.

Oh, we're trotting out the "Marc only appears here sporadically, so his
views are suspect" pablum, eh? That has to be the stupidest argument
you ever conceived, because all it ever really illustrates is how empty
and meaningless you life is, and that you have to spend it arguing with
strangers on the Internet.

Marc, you made that argument up yourself, so of course its the stupidest
argument ever conceived.

Stop telling yourself these silly lies and grow up!

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

Or when he bought the lowest priced SACD player available

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal player was
capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?


Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in the
way of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including RAO.
SACD is the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to PCM
destroys the ambience readily available on native DSD decoding players.

Here Harry shows his ignorance of technology by claiming that DSD somehow
reproduces audio better than PCM with the same or better bandwidth and
dynamic range.

BTW, DVD-A's 24/192 and 24/96 coding easily whips SACD's butt on both
counts, since SACD trashes dynamic range above 20 KHz. If I wanted to split
hairs, I could say that 24/48 has more dynamic range than SACD because of
its extension to 24 KHz.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a
recording with true hall ambience.

Urban myth, and confusion of added processing with the inherent properties
of PCM and SACD.

This isn't theory...it is reality and widely acknowledged

No doubt based on sighted evaluations...

(note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to decode SACD
does this...only that these specific ones do).

Note Harry running and hiding.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Harry Lavo wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Harry, isn't it true that you said that the Pioneer universal
player
was capable of showing the benefits of the SACD format?

Absolutely not. You obviously are letting your opinion of me get in
the
way of what I've said....at least three times on usenet, including
RAO.
SACD is the weakest format played by the 578a. It's conversion to
PCM
destroys the ambience readily available on native DSD decoding
players

How ?

Graham


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that
otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a recording
with
true hall ambience. This isn't theory...it is reality and widely
acknowledged (note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to
decode SACD does this...only that these specific ones do).

So why isn't it more widely acknowledged ?


It is. Often mentioned by reviewers, ordinary users on the web.


Where does this 'ambience ' go ?


Where did Cat Stevens go?

A mosque. Now answer the question!

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a
recording with true hall ambience.


Urban myth, and confusion of added processing with the inherent properties
of PCM and SACD.


The Bible isn't urban myth, Arny? ;-)


This isn't theory...it is reality and widely acknowledged


No doubt based on sighted evaluations...


The existence of God can't even be proven based on sighted
evaluations......


(note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to decode SACD
does this...only that these specific ones do).


Note Harry running and hiding.


Enjoy your service today, Arny.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a
recording with true hall ambience.

Urban myth, and confusion of added processing with the inherent properties
of PCM and SACD.

This isn't theory...it is reality and widely acknowledged

No doubt based on sighted evaluations...

(note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to decode SACD
does this...only that these specific ones do).

Note Harry running and hiding.

Once again Arny offers his criticism without any actual experience or
experimentation.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a
recording with true hall ambience.

Urban myth, and confusion of added processing with the inherent properties
of PCM and SACD.

This isn't theory...it is reality and widely acknowledged

No doubt based on sighted evaluations...

(note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to decode SACD
does this...only that these specific ones do).

Note Harry running and hiding.

I guess Arny doesn't subscribe to the posts that say that what you choose to
measure, not whether or not it can be measured, is the battle. A completly
irrelevant answer.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course we could remind our new friend Graham here how his pal
Arny
really buys turntables. You know, how he e-mailed me under another
name to ask my what I recommended, and when I told him to buy a Rega
Planar 3, or a Planar 2 with an RB250 arm at the very least,

True, but out of budget.

he went on e-bay and purchased one of the oldest and cheapest P2s he
could
find,
with the crappy, mismatched Mayware arm,

True, and within budget.

and then tried to tell
everyone I didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't
sound
very good.

Another one of Marc's paranoid delusions.

Marc again tries to fight substance with fire

In other words, the whole incident backfired on you, and you looked
like an idiot.

That's why you ran away from RAO with your tail between your legs, Marc.
Why did it take so long for you to come back?

But then again, that's the essence of the Marc and Arny Story.

I cut, Marc runs.

Oh, we're trotting out the "Marc only appears here sporadically, so his
views are suspect" pablum, eh? That has to be the stupidest argument
you ever conceived, because all it ever really illustrates is how empty
and meaningless you life is, and that you have to spend it arguing with
strangers on the Internet.

Marc, you made that argument up yourself, so of course its the stupidest
argument ever conceived.

Stop telling yourself these silly lies and grow up!

That makes absolutely no sense. Show how I came up with the argument
and not you. Or, better yet, don't show it. Let the exchange stand as
it is. You've made a career out of wasting your life on the Internet,
by embarrassing yourself and your family, by revealing yourself to be
utterly insane, and your best defense is to keep plugging along,
pretending you're not as dumb as you really are.

I guess it's working, because you're not dead yet. You have that going
for you.

Boon

[[email protected]]

ScottW wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

ScottW wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
What components would you put into the best
money-no-object
music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp,
tuner,
DAC, cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've
heard it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement, and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act
ONE with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the
price
of those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you
on
the
list.

Is that some variation on "don't ask me tricky questions I have no
answer to" ?

Graham

Yes, you're right. I don't have an answer to the question, "What
difference does it make?" It was a stupid question. It was far
from
tricky, however. Obtuse, yes. Tricky, no.

So...... What difference does it make ?

Graham

Whether or not you're tricky or obtuse? That's for you to decide.

Your obfuscation is noted.

That's a nice Internet-geek word. Did Arny teach you that one?

There's no obfuscation, only a request, in vain, that you express
yourself more clearly with the written word.


So..... what difference can you hear between any of the above turntables
and
arms ?

What, in twenty-five words or less?

Read my articles, slick.

I read the SL1200 direct drive debate....and I can't agree.

If DD TT inherently vibrated into the spindle..it would be very easy
to measure....yet there aren't any measurements that bear this out.
Now you know, I have a DD table and have had belt drives as well.
I don't hear inherent vibrations in DD or speed variations in belts.

I think this whole issue is trumped up crap where the cottage
manufacturers...like Rega really couldn't do DDs. They wanted
to use little AC synchronous motors, cheap and effective
but lacking the torque of a DD that really showed when
taking a Discwasher to a record to get dust off.
So they started a campaign to besmirch DD that
lives to this day.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/te..._sl1200_e.html

Frankly...I don't think DD or belt as a rule amounts to
audible squat. My AR-XA had no audible speed variation
or rumble either and it was as cheap as cheap can be.
Its all cart/arm and the XA arm was awful.
I had a buddy with a XB and the arm bearing wore out.
It litterally fell off off the post.
I had a Technics table
once too...that monster noodle S arm they use
on all their tables is the problem.
That suckers mass is off the charts...medium high my ass.

Hey..Art is s'posed to making his last west coast swing
before leaving for Europe in a couple weeks.
Let me know if you want to get together.

ScottW

It's funny, but that column about the SL-1200 generated more
controversy than anything I've ever written in the last eight years.
They went nuts for a few days over Audio Asylum, and a couple of other
places as well. Apparently some people love their SL-1200s. I've
heard a few, however, and they fail to excite me in any way shape or
form. And I still haven't had a single person respond to my offer to
bring theirs over to my house for an audition.

As far as the measurements are concerned, you're the first person I've
heard say that. In addition, I've listen to various DD designs with a
stethoscope, including the SL-1200 and the Denon DP-47, and you can
clearly hear motor noise in the platter, much more so than a good
belt-drive design.

Were they both aluminum platters?
Aluminum will conduct noise much more effectively than acrylic.
Thats one reason I'm exploring dampening my platter...If I can get it
off, but it does have a big thick heavy and highly damped matt though
replacing it with a conductive fiber matt made no difference to my ears.

You can conduct a similar experiment with Duals...different drive
systems (belt, direct, idler), yet similar platters. The results with
a stethoscope will be the same.


Not all DDs are the same, however, and I say that
several times in my articles.

Agreed...which is why I said belt drive or DD 'as a rule' .

In theory, a direct-drive system is superior to a belt-drive. The
problem is, it takes a lot of money to make that happen, hence the
Rockport.


As far as the visit is concerned, that would be great, but it depends
on the date. I'm going on an extended road trip for a month or so
starting in mid-October.

I think it would have to be the 7th or 8th.
I lost Arts cell phone number and he's already closed his e-mail
and apparently gone off line...like going underground .
You don't happen to have it in your e-mail archives?
E-mail me if you do.

Nope. AOL kicks out everything unless you purposely save it.
Hopefully he'll get in touch. He has all my information.

Boon

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

Apparently Arny and Graham believe it is possible to get side
by side demonstrations of the Continuum, the Rockport, and the
Clearaudio.

No, we only think that it would take proper side-by-side comparisons to have
much of interest to say about how they sound. The kind of comparisons that
most audiophiles do are a joke. They are wildly insensitive to real
differences, and foster a lot of imaginative or copy-cat comments.

Actually we believe that anything else is simply so heavily flawed as to
cast very
serious doubt on its worth.

Who is "we," what is "anything else," and how is it so "heavily
flawed"? Or, in other words, do you actually have a valid opinion
about anything?

Graham's opinions are generally quite orthodox in the context of audio
professionals.

Compare that to the opinions of Marc Phillips, which are pretty crazy even
for a high end audiophile. OTOH, I'm surprised that John Atkinson hasn't
approached him to write for SP. Marc would fit right in with guys like
Fremer.

[Arny Krueger]

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:05:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


Well, all this high end stuff is incomparable, anyhow.


That's quite good, Arnie. You nearly made a joke.

No doubt dozens of lurkers laughed at it. Being far smarter than you are
Paul, they made no online comments.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...

So unless you can compare side by side, forget purchasing anything?

No, just forget about trying to say something authoritative, unless you can
find an obvious, well-defined flaw.

I know that buying a new turntable is an act of faith for vinyl bigots, and
I wouldn't want to mess with how you practice your religion.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

wrote:
What components would you put into the best money-no-object
music
system in the world?

I nominate:

tube amp: the WAVAC SH-833 - $350,000
turntable: Rockport Sirius III - $70,000

What should be the other components: speakers, preamp, tuner,
DAC,
cd
player, etc.?

The Rockport is FAR from being the best TT out there. I've heard
it,
I've heard the Continuum, and I've heard the Clearaudio
Statement,
and
my favorite 'table/arm combo is still the Wilson Benesch Act ONE
with a
Breuer arm, which can be purchased for a fraction of the price of
those
others.

What difference does it make ?

Graham

Have you been approved to respond to my posts? I don't see you on
the
list.

The list is at:

www.marcphillips.com

Sorry, but that link doesn't work.

Yes, and its a major boo-boo for a web designer when the site is there
but a
link like this doesn't work

talk about not getting the joke!

No, I got the joke. It was a stupid joke. And my comments made it
look really, really stupid. That's kind of the story of Marc and Arny,
I suppose.

I can already smell the fear building in your posts, Marc. Will you last
here a month, this time?

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

The same way turning on speaker compensation within the Sony C222ES and
C2000ES do....when put through the DAC as PCM, they loose the ambience
that otherwise is on the recording...it is clearly noticeable on a
recording with true hall ambience.

Urban myth, and confusion of added processing with the inherent
properties of PCM and SACD.

This isn't theory...it is reality and widely acknowledged

No doubt based on sighted evaluations...

(note that I am *not* saying every machine that uses PCM to decode SACD
does this...only that these specific ones do).

Note Harry running and hiding.

Once again Arny offers his criticism without any actual experience or
experimentation.

Yet another religious act of denial of reality noted.

[Eeyore]

wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"George M. Middius" wrote:

Marc said to Poopie B'ar:

Is it possible that Graham thinks this is a better way to buy a 'table?

I wouldn't even remotely consider using one other than for entertainment purpose any
more.

Well, what would you use a music reproduction system for, other than
entertainment?

Poopie is a fevered follower of the maniacal Dr. Not, who preaches that
"audio is a deadly serious business".

It's only serious when I'm making money from it.

Ok.... who here earns an income from audio ?

Graham

me of course - and........

Me.

Boon

In the sense that you purvey loony opinions it seems.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...

As far as the visit is concerned, that would be great, but it depends
on the date. I'm going on an extended road trip for a month or so
starting in mid-October. I'm visiting my parents in Colorado for a few
days, and then I'm off to the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival in Denver
from October 20-22. I'll be helping to man the TONE Audio room. Then,
I'm going to take the WRX on a whirlwind trip through the last five
states in the US I've never seen. And then, it's off to London.

Marc is already planning his retreat.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course we could remind our new friend Graham here how his pal
Arny
really buys turntables. You know, how he e-mailed me under
another
name to ask my what I recommended, and when I told him to buy a
Rega
Planar 3, or a Planar 2 with an RB250 arm at the very least,

True, but out of budget.

he went on e-bay and purchased one of the oldest and cheapest P2s
he
could
find,
with the crappy, mismatched Mayware arm,

True, and within budget.

and then tried to tell
everyone I didn't know what I was talking about because it didn't
sound
very good.

Another one of Marc's paranoid delusions.

Marc again tries to fight substance with fire

In other words, the whole incident backfired on you, and you looked
like an idiot.

That's why you ran away from RAO with your tail between your legs,
Marc.
Why did it take so long for you to come back?

But then again, that's the essence of the Marc and Arny Story.

I cut, Marc runs.

Oh, we're trotting out the "Marc only appears here sporadically, so his
views are suspect" pablum, eh? That has to be the stupidest argument
you ever conceived, because all it ever really illustrates is how empty
and meaningless you life is, and that you have to spend it arguing with
strangers on the Internet.

Marc, you made that argument up yourself, so of course its the stupidest
argument ever conceived.

Stop telling yourself these silly lies and grow up!

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Of course not Marc. You have few brains and zero self-awareness. I'm glad to
see that you are already plotting your exit strategy.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
ups.com...

Eeyore wrote:
"George M. Middius" wrote:

Marc said to Poopie B'ar:

Is it possible that Graham thinks this is a better way to buy a
'table?

I wouldn't even remotely consider using one other than for
entertainment purpose any
more.

Well, what would you use a music reproduction system for, other than
entertainment?

Poopie is a fevered follower of the maniacal Dr. Not, who preaches that
"audio is a deadly serious business".

It's only serious when I'm making money from it.

Ok.... who here earns an income from audio ?

Graham

me of course - and........

Me.

Marc, given your many loony statements here about computer networking, it is
no surprise that the gig didn't last for you. I think the job you had that
you were best suited for was working at the garden center giving out bad
advice about perennials:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=source&hl=en

"By the way, NOW is the time to prune all those perennials to ground level
if you want them to return next year"

LOL!

Marc, you might be able to get away with idiocy like this in southern
California, but in most of the upper US it exposes you for the fraud you
really are.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...

So unless you can compare side by side, forget purchasing anything?

No, just forget about trying to say something authoritative, unless you can
find an obvious, well-defined flaw.

So you admit that in real world terms, when shopping, side by side blind
comparisons are usually impossible unless one store happens to carry all
of the gear you are interested in hearing.


I know that buying a new turntable is an act of faith for vinyl bigots, and
I wouldn't want to mess with how you practice your religion.

And I know that buying a CD player is an act of faith for CD bigots.