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#1
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Greetings to all,
I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c. 2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6 heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard fashion? Thanks in advance for considering my problem. If this is the wrong group to post such a question to, my apologies, and if so, could someone here suggest another group. Thanks again, Darrel Tidaback, South Bend, IN, USA |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
darrelt wrote:
I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c. 2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6 heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard fashion? Okay, first question... were you recording both the Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks? Were you recording video on the video tracks.. or were you actually recording PCM digital audio on the video tracks? Hi-Fi VHS was pretty standard... but there were often problems with alignment between different machines, since the subcarrier involved was at the top of the band allotted for video and was the first thing to be lost when the video degraded. If you have access to a machine with a light that will tell you when the Hi-Fi carrier is being detected, that would help. You may be able to tweak the head alignment on the fly until it pops up. This was... well... not the most robust format. But it wasn't as bad as Exabytes! --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
A couple of thoughts...
Does the new machine have any mechanism for switching between longitudinal and Hi-Fi tracks? Does the machine have any manual adjustment for tracking? Did you record video with the sound? Perhaps the new machine won't play Hi-Fi if there's no video signal. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Was this the Toshiba that did the 14-bit PCM?
"darrelt" wrote in message ups.com... Greetings to all, I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help me. Back in the really dark ages (early '90s) when DAT machines were quite expensive I used a VHS HI-Fi machine (a Toshiba, don't recall the model #) to archive some old live jazz performances. Sound was quite good - not DAT, but better than most tape machines available then. Eventually (c. 2000) the heads on the machine went and I disposed of it. I figured that purchasing another VHS Hi-fi machine would still allow me to retrieve the audio - no such luck. While videos made on the old machine play back just fine (audio (longitudinal track?) and video), I get no audio of any sort from the audio only tapes I made with the old machine. The audio I archived on the old machine was definately the FM, Hi Fi audio, interlaced with the video and not the crappy sounding longitudinal track standard on VHS machines. From those dark days I vaguely recall machines with 2, 4 (standard now) and possibly even 6 heads on them. The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head machine. Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard fashion? Thanks in advance for considering my problem. If this is the wrong group to post such a question to, my apologies, and if so, could someone here suggest another group. Thanks again, Darrel Tidaback, South Bend, IN, USA |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Thanks for you replies so soon, I appreciate it.
Answers to Qs: I was recording only the Hi-Fi audio via audio line-ins. If I remember correctly the longitudinal tracks were accessed only thru the coax. This was not PCM recorded to video (I did some of that in those days as well), but FM Hi-Fi. I recorded NO video along with the Hi-Fi audio, so it's a possibility that the new machine wants to see a video signal. Although I assumed that with HiFi audio, the video record heads were active and a video signal was being recorded (with the audio encoded as FM as part of the video) even if no video signal was present - rather like kicking a reel to reel into record mode but with no audio hooked up to the machine - the record heads are still doing something. I went ahead and hooked the machine up to my TV and played the tape. No real snow, just black but with consistant but very sparce, short "flecks" of luminescence - rather like a tape that has gone past the video heads but with no signal being present to record. There are tracking controls on the new machine, but adjusting makes no difference. Scott, I'm not sure what you mean by "a machine with a light." William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know" which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it is present? Just a thought. Thanks again for your thoughts. Darrel |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
darrelt wrote: I recorded NO video along with the Hi-Fi audio, so it's a possibility that the new machine wants to see a video signal. Although I assumed that with HiFi audio, the video record heads were active and a video signal was being recorded (with the audio encoded as FM as part of the video) even if no video signal was present - rather like kicking a reel to reel into record mode but with no audio hooked up to the machine - the record heads are still doing something. I went ahead and hooked the machine up to my TV and played the tape. No real snow, just black but with consistant but very sparce, short "flecks" of luminescence - rather like a tape that has gone past the video heads but with no signal being present to record. Ruh-roh, Rorge... VHS machines read the control track of the video as a means of determining the speed of the recording (SP, LP, EP/SLP). If you recorded only audio, you may have no control track, and the machine doesn't know what speed to use. I tried this many years ago, and determined I had to record a video signal, either a capped camera or a color bar generator. Have you EVER been able to play the tracks back? On the original machine? |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between
Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know" which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it is present? Just a thought. I _think_ some VHS Hi-Fi machines had such a switch. As far as I know, the default on Beta and VHS Hi-Fi machines is to play the Hi-Fi track, if it exists. If it doesn't exist, or drops out, the machine switches to the linear track. One other question... Did these tapes play correctly on the original recorder? (I think you said they did, but I don't remember.) |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
... There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. However you bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know" which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it is present? Just a thought. I _think_ some VHS Hi-Fi machines had such a switch. I owned several VHS HiFi machines over the years and every single one included a slide switch to allow swapping playback between the hi-fi and linear tracks or mix them together. Until we had computer editing it was the only way one could compile a sound track on domestic equipment and it was pretty much the norm on machines made up until ten years ago. I still have two working machines with the facility. As far as I know, the default on Beta and VHS Hi-Fi machines is to play the Hi-Fi track, if it exists. If it doesn't exist, or drops out, the machine switches to the linear track. That's true. -- Malcolm |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
To answer the latest question, yes, the tapes I made played like a
charm on the old machine and sounded great. Thanks again, Darrel |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
I still have a JVC HR-D565U VHS machine that has Hi-Fi, Normal or Both
settings for audio. I used it like a tape deck for my wedding music. Recorded all songs to a VHS tape, popped it in at 8 pm to start the night and it played non-stop until 1 am. Helluva lot cheaper than a DJ and the music was much better. It also has a nice feature that allows overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new input. It also has a manual tracking adjustment which is so much better than those automatic ones they have now. I would be happy to help you out if you want to contact me off line. JD darrelt wrote: To answer the latest question, yes, the tapes I made played like a charm on the old machine and sounded great. Thanks again, Darrel |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Our current VHS switches between tracks via the remote, cycling thru
the choices. (Sony VHS from about 6+ yrs ago.) My feeling is that if your tracks played once they'll play again--the VHS spec hasn't changed. You may have to troll Ebay or your friend's home setups to find one that will play the tracks, but my guess is that you will find one. There is also the possibility that your current machine isn't operating properly. Does it play the hifi tracks from rented VHS tapes? On our machine, the hifi tracks are the default. Last question: are you sure your current machine is a HIFI deck? There are still lots of cheapo decks available that do not play the HIFI tracks. Philip Perkins |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
JD wrote:
It also has a nice feature that allows overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new input. You will notice that the audio dubbing function only works with the linear tracks, not with the Hi-Fi tracks. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Hadn't noticed. I'll have to check it out.
JD Scott Dorsey wrote: JD wrote: It also has a nice feature that allows overdubbing of audio to previously recorded video. I have only used this feature once to add music to an 8mm transfer that didn't have audio but I assume it overwrites the existing audio (if any) in favour of the new input. You will notice that the audio dubbing function only works with the linear tracks, not with the Hi-Fi tracks. --scott |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Ruh-roh, Rorge...
VHS machines read the control track of the video as a means of determining the speed of the recording (SP, LP, EP/SLP). If you recorded only audio, you may have no control track, and the machine doesn't know what speed to use. I tried this many years ago, and determined I had to record a video signal, either a capped camera or a color bar generator. Have you EVER been able to play the tracks back? On the original machine? I used to record to VHS HiFi without a video signal, maybe it's just on some recorders this is a problem. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
darrelt wrote:
There are tracking controls on the new machine, but adjusting makes no difference. There are actually a dozen or so things that can be adjusted inside to make the transport match whatever the original machine was. But you really don't want to touch them without some way of knowing how far off you are. Scott, I'm not sure what you mean by "a machine with a light." I mean a machine that has a light that comes on when it detects a Hi-Fi subcarrier. That way you know when it's locked on and when it hasn't. William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. A lot of the cheaper machines just switch over to Hi-Fi as soon as they detect a carrier. This is a bad thing because sometimes you want to listen to the linear tracks rather than the Hi-Fi tracks (for things like dual language recordings, for instance). Most of the professional machines have four inputs and four outputs so you can listen to both linear and Hi-Fi tracks at the same time. Some of them also have a metering mode where you can see how strong the FM subcarrier is, which helps you adjust tracking and skew somewhat. However you bring up something I've never thought about befo When a videotape has a hi-fi audio track, presumably it also has the lo-fi longitudinal track as well (for compatability). How does a tape machine "know" which track to output? Some logic circuit that switches to hi-fi if it is present? Just a thought. It's like the squelch on a radio. When it detects a carrier, it activates some switching. But since the carrier is very high frequency, it is usually the first thing to be lost when the video signal degrades. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Okay, so I'm going to ask a realllllly stupid question:
Have you tried to find a working old Toshiba machine from the same period your now dead machine came from? You know, like on eBay, for example. It would utterly simplify your problem to one of getting the compatible machine and then transferring the now accessible tracks to digital or other media of reliable nature. --Fletch |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
William, there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for switching between Hi-Fi and longitudinal tracks. When I think about it, I don't know if I've ever seen such a switch on consumer video equipment. A lot of the cheaper machines just switch over to Hi-Fi as soon as they detect a carrier. This is a bad thing because sometimes you want to listen to the linear tracks rather than the Hi-Fi tracks (for things like dual language recordings, for instance). Most of the professional machines have four inputs and four outputs so you can listen to both linear and Hi-Fi tracks at the same time. Some of them also have a metering mode where you can see how strong the FM subcarrier is, which helps you adjust tracking and skew somewhat. When VHS Hi-Fi was relatively new, all the Zenith (JVC) machines had such switches. I have the "portable" one, and it still works except for rewind. It's a three-position switch, hi-Fi, standard (can't recal the actual name) and mix. Mix was very phasey, IIRC. I do recall that many of those machines had a "Hi-Fi" light on the front panel to indicate the presence of a signal. I recorded quite a bit with this machine, all audio with no video. -John O |
#18
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
Hello to all,
Sorry, I've been off-line for a few days (seems I occasionally have to go to work!). Scott, I do remember the old machine having an idiot light that came on saying "hifi". Thanks to all who have responded my VHS problem. .You've given me a number of ideas to check out. I'm heading out of town for a week or so (concerts elswhere) so I will report back when I've (hopefully) found a solution. Thanks to JD for offering to help me if I can't get tapes to play around here. A great group of helpful people here. Darrel Tidaback |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
The Toshiba I had was certainly at least a 4 head machine. Could the
relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard fashion? No. Unlike the superior Beta Hi-Fi system, VHS Hi-Fi uses depth multiplexing. The Hi-Fi and video signals are physically separated. |
#20
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
On Apr 5, 2006, William Sommerwerck commented:
Unlike the superior Beta Hi-Fi system, VHS Hi-Fi uses depth multiplexing. The Hi-Fi and video signals are physically separated. ------------------------------snip------------------------------ Not exactly true. The VHS Hi-Fi multiplexed audio signal is like half a micron deeper into the tape than the video, so for all practical purposes, this is one big signal recorded on the tape. You can't exactly separate one without also reading the other. I once spoke with a Panasonic rep, and he told me they had created an experimental VHS Hi-Fi machine in the lab that would allow you to replace the Hi-Fi soundtrack by temporarily reading the video into RAM, then recording it back to tape a split-second later with an alternate set of video heads -- essentially doing a dub as the tape played. Unfortunately, it was a) very expensive, and b) resulted in a loss of picture quality, since the picture now looked like a dub. Needless to say, the product never saw the light of day. I always felt that VHS Hi-Fi and Beta Hi-Fi never sounded very good. They initially impressed me for the first few months they were out, simply because they were so much better than the shoddy linear mono sound we had up to that point from VCRs. But the reality is, the interchange with those machines was (and is) horrible. --MFW |
#21
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
On Apr 1, 2006, darrelt commented:
Could the relatively new (then) FM, Hi-Fi technology not have been standardized yet and my audio interlaced with the video in some (now) un-standard fashion? ------------------------------snip------------------------------ It's possible, or it's possible your old Toshiba was poorly aligned and was making bad recordings that would only play back well on itself. Or it's possible the new machine you have is very intolerant of old videotapes... or a combination of the two. My small restoration studio has a variety of old format machines, and it's hard to find a tape that we can't revive and coax into sounding better. The VHS Hi-Fi deck of choice we use is the JVC BR-S822, which (IMHO) is the finest VHS deck ever made, worldwide. As long as your recordings were made in the SP mode, I would guarantee the 822 could play it back. You can find these machines (or the cheaper JVC 622) at fairly affordable prices on eBay, typically as little as $400 or so. My advice would be to buy or borrow one of those and see if that solves the problem. Or if you'd like to have my company look at it, contact me in email and I'll help if I can. --MFW |
#22
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
I always felt that VHS Hi-Fi and Beta Hi-Fi never sounded very good.
I once compared a direct disk with its dub to Beta Hi-Fi and felt it rather "blanded down" the sound. |
#23
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
"Marc Wielage" wrote ...
Not exactly true. The VHS Hi-Fi multiplexed audio signal is like half a micron deeper into the tape than the video, so for all practical purposes, this is one big signal recorded on the tape. You can't exactly separate one without also reading the other. The whole "layer" and/or "depth" thing seems like marketing hype. The audio is modulated onto an FM carrier at a frequency not used by the video signal. It gets written to the tape (and read back) by the same video heads that are writing and reading the video signal (both the Y and C parts). You could just as easily say that the color (C) and luminance (Y) signals are recorded at different "depths". It is simple frequency-domain multiplexing. But the marketing folk had to dude it up to earn their keep. I once spoke with a Panasonic rep, and he told me they had created an experimental VHS Hi-Fi machine in the lab that would allow you to replace the Hi-Fi soundtrack by temporarily reading the video into RAM, then recording it back to tape a split-second later with an alternate set of video heads -- essentially doing a dub as the tape played. Unfortunately, it was a) very expensive, and b) resulted in a loss of picture quality, since the picture now looked like a dub. Needless to say, the product never saw the light of day. That technique IS used in broadcast-level digital VCR equipment, however. You can modify video and/or audio. For example, you could add title overlays,etc to the same tape. |
#24
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Help with old VHS Hi-Fi audio archive
The whole "layer" and/or "depth" thing seems like marketing hype.
The audio is modulated onto an FM carrier at a frequency not used by the video signal. It gets written to the tape (and read back) by the same video heads that are writing and reading the video signal (both the Y and C parts). You could just as easily say that the color (C) and luminance (Y) signals are recorded at different "depths". It is simple frequency-domain multiplexing. But the marketing folk had to dude it up to earn their keep. There was also the Sony patent to get around. Unlike Beta, VHS has little (ie, no) room to move the carriers around, as it is a severely band-limited signal -- just barely adequate, even when everything is working properly. Sony could make room for the HiFi signal by moving up the video carrier a bit. What happens is that one of the signals (I forget which) penetrates the full oxide coating, while the other pentrates only the upper thickness, largely erasing the other signal. It is sufficiently different from Sony's system to patentable. |
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