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#1
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
I just had a look at what Hammond used to make.....
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/Catalog%2065.pdf The world was very different...... Patrick Turner. |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
Hi RATs!
The good old days that never were, outside of catalogs. http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5C08.pdf The world is different, transformers have been pretty stable. If only the owner's daughters would quit marrying accountants... or at least forego reproducing same. Happy Ears! Al Marcy |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 14, 5:36*am, "Watt? Me worry?" wrote:
Hi RATs! The good old days that never were, outside of catalogs. http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5C08.pdf The world is different, transformers have been pretty stable. If only the owner's daughters would quit marrying accountants... or at least forego reproducing same. Happy Ears! Al Marcy Hammond even made 3 different weights of Williamson OPTs with over Lp 100H at 5V 60Hz across the P, and with LL 12.8mH. Insertion loss 1dB. I wonder how many of your houses would you need to have sold to by one of these OPT? But then I thought America was the home of the brave and free, and everyone could afford anything they wanted in 1955? The trouble with private enteprise is that it resists competition and efficiency wherever possible when its easier to just remove quality, jack up the price and make deals with competitors - to pay more more hangers on who don't contribute to production. Marx thought up a solution but that fell into the wrong hands of Stalin and Mao and the shops remained free of anything worth buying. I'm not sure what the Global Internet Generation will think of in response to the foregoing. Maybe they'll all hang out in the town square without a plan. Ah, that's the way, don't have a plan, whatever you do, just be cool. Dick Tator bows out without a shot fired; more than 3 people found out what his allergy was. Having a plan is deadly, but comes later after apparent change, not necessarily related to any betterment. Read Wordsworth and Coleridge to learn more about the pitfalls of revolutions. Not everyone knows a revolution is where we revolve around to end up where we were before. Alas, the GIG doesn't read books. Patrick Turner. |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 13, 5:48*pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
On Feb 14, 5:36*am, "Watt? Me worry?" wrote: Hi RATs! The good old days that never were, outside of catalogs. http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5C08.pdf The world is different, transformers have been pretty stable. If only the owner's daughters would quit marrying accountants... or at least forego reproducing same. Happy Ears! Al Marcy Hammond even made 3 different weights of Williamson OPTs with over Lp 100H at 5V 60Hz across the P, and with LL 12.8mH. Insertion loss 1dB. I wonder how many of your houses would you need to have sold to by one of these OPT? But then I thought America was the home of the brave and free, and everyone could afford anything they wanted in 1955? The trouble with private enteprise is that it resists competition and efficiency wherever possible when its easier to just remove quality, jack up the price and make deals with competitors - *to pay more more hangers on who don't contribute to production. Marx thought up a solution but that fell into the wrong hands of Stalin and Mao and the shops remained free of anything worth buying. I'm not sure what the Global Internet Generation will think of in response to the foregoing. Maybe they'll all hang out in the town square without a plan. Ah, that's the way, don't have a plan, whatever you do, just be cool. Dick Tator bows out without a shot fired; more than 3 people found out what his allergy was. Having a plan is deadly, but comes later after apparent change, not necessarily related to any betterment. Read Wordsworth and Coleridge to learn more about the pitfalls of revolutions. Not everyone knows a revolution is where we revolve around to end up where we were before. Alas, the GIG doesn't read books. Patrick Turner. Correct. What about those kids in Cairo ? |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/13/11 22:14, flipper so witilly quipped:
Hammond even made 3 different weights of Williamson OPTs with over Lp 100H at 5V 60Hz across the P, and with LL 12.8mH. Insertion loss 1dB. I wonder how many of your houses would you need to have sold to by one of these OPT? But then I thought America was the home of the brave and free, and everyone could afford anything they wanted in 1955? People could afford a healthy dose of 'technology' because manufacturers put a lot of effort into making their products inexpensive enough for them to buy. No mystery, really. In general you make more money by shooting for 1 buck of profit each on sales of a million than trying to sell an 'ultimate radio' with a million in profit. it's all about what the market is that you're trying to reach. It's possible that someone out there might want a million dollar radio with near perfect performance in every way. Most people don't. There's a marketing cycle that every techno-product typically goes through. You have innovators, early adopters, "philes", general public, and 'end of life'. 'Innovators' are usually people who experiment with the latest stuff, and are usually engineers themselves. 'Early adopters' want the latest stuff first, but in a 'product ready' state, usually with bugs and quirks they're willing to overlook just to have 'the newest'. Then of course the 'philes' who are willing to pay high $ for 'the good stuff', and then 'general public' if costs get low enough, and finally 'end of life' when all of the 'knockoff' shops on the planet are making similar stuff at rock bottom prices, or else the product just doesn't get made any more because nobody wants it. Anyway, high end tube audio equipment will probably remain in the 'philes' market indefinitely for obvious reasons. Hard to say where OPTs are in the curve. If they're in the 'philes' block, you should be able to get good quality but you'll pay for it. If it's considered 'end of life', you'll have to deal with low quality crap. As for 'general public', that's where cost cutting to drive down price starts compromising quality to the limit of acceptability. I don't see that happening SUCCESSFULLY with high-end tube audio equipment. |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 14, 5:14*pm, flipper wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:48:51 -0800 (PST), Patrick Turner snip But then I thought America was the home of the brave and free, and everyone could afford anything they wanted in 1955? People could afford a healthy dose of 'technology' because manufacturers put a lot of effort into making their products inexpensive enough for them to buy. Indeed, its always starts off like this, idealistic..... No mystery, really. In general you make more money by shooting for 1 buck of profit each on sales of a million than trying to sell an 'ultimate radio' with a million in profit. The trouble with private enteprise is that it resists competition and efficiency wherever possible Nonsensical socialist gibberish. Private enterprise, aka free enterprise, *is* competition, by definition, and one of the best ways to compete is by being efficient at what you do. Unfortunately there is a history of legal cases between regulatory government authorities and companies engaging in the very behaviour which is against all the rules of open competition. What do you think CEOs of different companies chat about at their Manufacturers Asscociation meetings? How to co-operate without pain to themselves. If a company has invested heavily to make a new model the last thing they like is to see some rude upstart competing too vigourously, thus causing their investemnt to be in vain. Its all nice and social at the Big Boys clubs. But of course nobody can really always rig things, and new ideas come along to make old ones obsolete and there's only the quick and the dead, so its every man for himself. One can have wastefull capital investment, where bosses compete so much to make new models the whole industry has to raise prices or reduce quality to please the buyers. All very social as well. What's the first thing those horrid socialst trade-unionists talk about when more than 3 gather together? Solidarity! Just like the bosses do. Or, put another way, you don't last very long trying to sell the same thing but at twice the cost of your competitors. Indeed. Industry practices by competing bosses and competing workers are balanced against consumers. I'm not at all advocating socialism where one man steals another man's freedom. And its been found that formal socialism stifles creativity and the human spirit. But I'd hate to live in the USA and have to find $1,200 per month for medical insurance, then get ripped off with huge nedical bills anyway. Here we can ALL get the same good service, free. So a mixed economy where some things are provided by Big Brother and some by Mr Private Enterprise is probably the best way we have devised yet. But this is an OT subject everyone likes to disagree about, so there's no point in argument. when its easier to just remove quality, jack up the price and make deals with competitors - Assuming you weren't already doing time for anti-trust violations that kind of logic might keep you in business for a week or two, if you're damn lucky. Huh? all sorts of tricks and rorts are tried for years at a time if possible..... Plenty of CEOs have been prosecuted for all sorts of things which kept the business viable and profitable for many years, while making it impossible for competitors to compete. And it continues on a grand scale globally. Why is the USA in decline? why does it have such a parlous financial condition? - Chinese workers gladly work for a pittance, and USA government does not know what to do..... There's more BS going on than I can poke a stick at. I don't know about you, Pat, but I don't buy 'expensive crap'. I might buy 'cheap crap', if it's good enough to suit my needs, but no one buys 'expensive crap' just for the thrill of flushing their hard earned money down the toilet. The only ones who come close to that are governments and socialists since it's *your* money they're flushing. I have about the same mindset as you on most days. But I make exceptions to the "cheap is beautiful" rule. In 1982, I bought an Italian made DeWalt radial arm saw. It has a nice quiet running induction motor without brushes and a very sturdy cast steel saw guide. It has never failed and I use it every other day to cut something or other. It was twice the price of other gear which may have worked OK but which I thought was not made anywhere nearly as well. So the Italians got paid twice what Ryobi in Japan may have been paid. People buy tube amplifiers which cost 4 times the price of an SS amp which makes the same power. People buy Merceded Benz even though a little Ford would suffice. The Australian Government is hell bent on building a fibre optic National Broadband Network which at present estimates is to cost $43 billion, or about $2,000 per each man, woman and child in Oz, not counting inevitable cost blow outs and the cost of in-house special connections and fees for use each month. Its going to be the biggest expense on a service that Australians have been fooled into paying for, because no cost-benefit document has been tabled by the Government. I feel I am governed by fuctards and idiots, and all I get is one vote each 3 years. But so what. China loves our minerals and we are so nice to do business with. We didn't even have a nasty recession like you had after the GFC. We actually have some nasty horrible socialist government regulation of bank behaviour, so no sub-prime mortgages here. So although the Broadband is a bit pricey, we will afford it. *to pay more more hangers on who don't contribute to production. I ran into that same lunacy when talking with European socialists. "Fire all the managers and the workers will decide what to make (and how, et al)" Bwaaaaahahahahahaha In South America there was a large swing to worker ownership of factories because the capitalists just ****ed up everything. And I aint talking about Cuba, although that's a special case where the socilaists stole factories and kicked the capitalists in the balls and 50years later the USA still holds a grudge. Look how long the US took to resume trading with Vietnam. But who napalmed the vilages, who spread toxic agent orange around, who was it who did their utmost to **** up Vietnam for the benefit of american interests? Laugh all you like but In many places in the world the US control of trading and industry is vigourously hated, and the US flag is burnt and trampled. Here in Oz in 2000, I could buy 1W Beyshlag german made resistors for 10c each, any number 1 to 1,000. Then the distributor of Beyshlag got bought out by a US company, and Vishay then bought Beyshslag, and what happened then? The same resistors were available but mimumum quantity was 1,000 pcs or each R value, and the price went to 40c each. Not everything is at all rosy about capitalism!!!!! I won't even mention Iraq and the grab for their cheap oil. If you think a camel is a horse designed by committee just wait till 'the workers' do it. There are some very very capable workers willing to design stuff efficiently They don't form committees, they are too busy getting the job done. Your prejudices are unbounded, based on mis-information and innacurate generalisations. You do know, of course, there is absolutely nothing in law preventing 'the workers' from forming their own company and showing us all 'how it's done' so, 'workers of the world', get to it. When workers get a set wage for time spent the wage allows only subsistence, they have little interest in profits which are denied them. This all changes dramatically when worker income is linked directly to productivity, and they share profits which don't just go to a boss, his fat wife and his expensive lifestyle. Marx thought up a solution Yea. Marx's idea is we're all so pure and noble we'll go plow the fields out of the goodness of our blessed little hearts even knowing that no matter how incompetent or lazy your neighbor is, or brilliant and industrious you are, we all get the exact same results. I didn't say Marx was right of course. But the Christian Brothers who taught me at school were communists. Nice ones, and they practised chastity, povety and obedience, fine men they were. Anybody who falls for that one has a serious disconnect from reality. but that fell into the wrong hands of Stalin and Mao They were just implementing the required 'corrective' stage since, according to Marx, we've been 'corrupted' by society and need to have it beat out of us. Well, consumerism is the latest "ism" which will consume the whole planet during the unsustainable future. Marx was wrong in many ways, and when the ideas got to evil people like Stalin and Mao, whatever wrong Marx proposed became +20dB more wrong, and then all the killing began..... Then, once we're all good little utopian drones, the whip masters will wave a magic wand and dissolve themselves. But everyone now wants a capitalist utopia and we are in fact becoming like drones. There is no need for whip masters for we are charging along at top speed. Nobody really knows where we end up, or how bad the crashes will be along the way. And if you buy that one I've got a duesy of a deal on the Brooklyn bridge just for you. and the shops remained free of anything worth buying. Who the hell is going to break their back making "anything worth buying" when you get the same results whether you do or not? Illogical. Hell, even an amoeba doesn't squiggle around without the expectation of 'profiting' by it, in the form of acquiring food. Well, actually, all live things try to make a profit. They try to eat more today than necessary in case tommorrow is bad. Gene survival and reproduction is the primal force behind so much activity, and making profits, or getting a win improves genetic chances. He who profits gets more ****s. I'm not sure what the Global Internet Generation will think of in response to the foregoing. Maybe they'll all hang out in the town square without a plan. Ah, that's the way, don't have a plan, whatever you do, just be cool. Dick Tator bows out without a shot fired; more than 3 people found out what his allergy was. Having a plan is deadly, but comes later after apparent change, not necessarily related to any betterment. Read Wordsworth and Coleridge to learn more about the pitfalls of revolutions. Not everyone knows a revolution is where we revolve around to end up where we were before. Alas, the GIG doesn't read books. Patrick Turner. Ah, the famous 'plan'. The most terrifying phrase in the English language is "I'm from the government and here to help," followed in a dead heat by "we have a plan."- Hide quoted text - I was joking about plans. And in Egypt serious plans will be made by other than Dick Tator, who seems to have retired from the stage. Plans bring aguments, because nobody agrees because different ppl benefit or lose from the same plan. I recall the US did have a frightful Civil War with as many killed as when Iraq and Iran battled it out 20 years ago with the US giving assistance to both sides...... But I am glad I have so little to fear from someone turning up here to say to me "I'm from the government and here to help..." I am likely to reply, "Good one mate, we need all the help we can get." Never mind the most terrifying phrase in the English language. The least said sentence in the English language isn't altogether heart warming......... "Jus you lie down here luvvy, it won't cost yer any fink..." Patrick Turner. |
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#7
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Quote:
1) Offer your stuff on Ebay. The free market will determine value. 2) Offer on your web site, giving specs. Either way there is a market & you will profit. My 2cents, anyway. Cheers, John |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
snip, John said....... Hey Patrick, I read somewhere in one of these threads (can't find it this AM) that you have a spare Ton of iron with no particlar home. I believe there are at least two ways you could profit, both $$$$ & space. Perhaps others have some recommedations for you as well. 1) Offer your stuff on Ebay. The free market will determine value. I have never bought anything or sold anything on E-bay. Just like so many others who wouldn't even dream of putting stuff for sale on Ebay, I wouldn't either. I could only fetch very low prices on E-bay which mainly exists for the bargain hunters and for those who sell stuff well below its replacement value, or with many faults etc. If I had a dollar for every customer of mine who bought some ancient crapology on E-bay which had serious falts and needed a repair, I'd be rich. In general though, a few customers have been quite lucky, and have got bargains, even allowing for freight and my repair bills. A typical case was a fellow who bought a Dynaco ST70 for $200 plus freight from the US. These are truly horrible amps if in original condition because they are so badly designed, but with imagination and zeal one can transfrom them into something far better but that costs at least $1,000. I have a pair of MkIII Dynacos which I am slowly restoring for the same dude. He's a a poor payer though. NIce guy, sure, but he hates partin' with cash. He got 'em for peanuts off E-bay and they were in a real mess of corrosion and burnt parts. OK, now he has to spend to get good amps - a total re-build is needed. He is up to his neck in other amplifiers he has acquired, and runs a triamped stereo system with sub-woofer amp. If he paid me more I'd work faster, and I can only work for those who pay best. Or else I become a bankrupt. All these audio enthusiasts I do work for earn far more money than they pay me. I have a price at my website for my tonne of available trannies. What keeps most buyers well clear of having to deal with me is the freight, and the fact I don't have credit card facilities which prevents people making instant and impulsive purchases. I want people who buy to be able to think. I expect those who buy from me know what they are trying to build, and that takes time to learn, and fact is most never learn much at all or complete any projects. Of the few Australians who have bought trannies from me over the last 2.5 years NONE have completed a working amplifier and NONE have earned my enduring respect. I have to add value to what I sell for prices advertised, ie, varnish selected items where necessary, provide fixing brackets and bolts, and adjust winding terminations and load matching to suit a customer's project as well as provide a suitable schematic usually far better than the one they have obsessively-compulsively fixated their non- broad mind upon. When I fall off the perch all my junk will go t the re-cyclers. But while I am alive everything has a price, take it or leave it. 2) Offer on your web site, giving specs. I have several pages devoted to for-sale transformers at my website. Nobody yet who has enquired about getting trannies has shown to me they can read AND understand the details of what I have said in the details of the transformers listed. Either way there is a market & you will profit. There is an extremely feeble market for hand crafted audio gear or for amp parts. There is NO PROFIT whatsoever, and for all the hours of cataloging after analysing what is in my stock list plus the cost of transporting the stock here for sale, the earnings are peanuts. Half the price I sell for goes to a colleague who owns the stuff I have for sale. Prices are below Hammond for the equivalent item. So I am being very fair about price. I receive no offers I cannot refuse. Two out of 3 recent local enquirers wanting a tranny set for their tube amp project could not wait for me to provide the trannies. When I finally searched through the whole pile of stuff I have to best suit their requests and I gave them the quote, they don't even reply, even though they know what price to expect because the items at my website all are priced. Dealing with many DIY hobby people is like dealing with vermin. These ignorant ppl have no idea about buying handcrafted goods, or how long things take to be fully made to suit them. I aim my goods for sale to people who really try to know things and who have an established past pattern of self suficiency and behaviour which leads them to being busy with a soldering iron, and busy trying to learn by doing. I just don't care about the do-little armchair gunner-do would be wannabes and false experts who build **** all, and when they do, its crap anyway. While alive, I ain't on Earth to give bull****. I expect that by the time I die, the last tube amp DIYer will die with me and the species will finally have become extinct for good. No need for anyone to store all my junk in some cheap cost country barn or shed somewhere because there are mountains of stuff already in such barns around the nation and 99.99999999999% will never ever be used by anyone with respectable intelligence for anything worth listening to. So sending stuff to the recycling crushers will not deprive anyone of anything. Patrick Turner. My 2cents, anyway. Cheers, John -- John L Stewart- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/14/11 15:50, flipper so witilly quipped:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:48:13 -0800, Big Bad Bob wrote: There's a marketing cycle that every techno-product typically goes through. That's product life cycle, not a 'marketing' cycle. think in terms of one step higher, and you'll see what I mean. It's more about the technology, not the individual products themselves. The technology can easily go through an 'end of life' period. Who buys 'buggy whips' nowadays? Nobody but a very few. Exactly. I'm not sure where you get your terms but 'copycat' is not an 'end of life' thing. again, we're talking about technologies more than products. Consider VCRs as a good example. By the 21st century only a couple of manufacturers still make them, and they're typically OEMd by oddball electronics makers at 'paperweight' prices. That's what I mean by 'copycats'. When only the low-end and 'we didn't think it up but we can make a cheaper one' manufacturers are the ONLY ones making them, that's when the technology is at 'end of life'. |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/14/11 20:53, flipper so witilly quipped:
I suppose it will never cease to fascinate me how liberal-progressive-socialists simply fantasize things and then insist their fantasies 'must be true' simply because they fantasize them. ack in general, though I don't think the specifics of that really applies in this case. However, the PERCEPTION that corporations cut quality while cutting cost still exists, because for a while it was actually happening. Those of us who've worked on old equipment before understand the 'cheapening' effect that happened a LOT during the 1960's and 1970's, which included things like "fusing transformers", something that always irritated me to no end. I have to wonder how many pieces of broken audio equipment ended up at the local swap meet because the 'fusing transformer' blew when a speaker wire shorted out and took a transistor with it. It basically rendered the el-cheapo stereo 'un-fixable'. Good for scrap-hunting high school students, bad for original owner. Chinese workers gladly work for a pittance, and USA government does not know what to do..... There's more BS going on than I can poke a stick at. Right now they're "exploitable" and so that's what happens. Sad, but true. Manufacturing businesses have transformed to maximize flexibility in a rapidly changing business environment. They'll subcontract whatever they can, at the lowest available price, because it gives them more options and keeps the costs down. Right now China is getting the business because they're offering the lowest prices. Eventually it will be someone else. If the various company CTOs do their jobs right, they'll make sure that quality isn't lost in the process of having Chinese companies do the work. But we all know that doesn't always happen. I've seen things come back from Chinese subcontractors that had serious defects, but the ultimate cause was not shoddy work, but "not specifying things well enough." If you specify that certain defects shouldn't be there, they won't. It basically comes to that. my $.10 on this. not all corporations are evil profitmongers. Mine isn't, anyway. Profit is good, but screwing over your customers to get it isn't. |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/14/11 18:36, Patrick Turner so witilly quipped:
I expect that by the time I die, the last tube amp DIYer will die with me and the species will finally have become extinct for good. No need for anyone to store all my junk in some cheap cost country barn or shed somewhere because there are mountains of stuff already in such barns around the nation and 99.99999999999% will never ever be used by anyone with respectable intelligence for anything worth listening to. So sending stuff to the recycling crushers will not deprive anyone of anything. yeah, but tubes have a 'cool factor' to them in a way. They look like they're actually DOING SOMETHING, blue glow and filaments and high voltages and so on. I suspect experimenters will always want to play around with tube circuits. And there are also a lot of musicians who insist on having tube amplifiers. [shipping cost to the U.S. would be prohibitive, though] |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 15, 5:56*pm, Big Bad Bob BigBadBob-at-mrp3-
wrote: On 02/14/11 18:36, Patrick Turner so witilly quipped: I expect that by the time I die, the last tube amp DIYer will die with me and the species will finally have become extinct for good. No need for anyone to store all my junk in some cheap cost country barn or shed somewhere because there are mountains of stuff already in such barns around the nation and 99.99999999999% will never ever be used by anyone with respectable intelligence for anything worth listening to. So sending stuff to the recycling crushers will not deprive anyone of anything. yeah, but tubes have a 'cool factor' to them in a way. *They look like they're actually DOING SOMETHING, blue glow and filaments and high voltages and so on. I suspect experimenters will always want to play around with tube circuits. *And there are also a lot of musicians who insist on having tube amplifiers. [shipping cost to the U.S. would be prohibitive, though] Eventually,vacuum tubes will be a historical curiousity,mainly ... Say, 25-50 years from now . Like the windmill and steam engine . Technology is REALLY speeding up lately in a logarithmic proportion ,to say the least ... But, vacuum tubes DO have a certain aspect of being 'Alive ' ! |
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 15, 3:53*pm, flipper wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 06:24:02 -0800 (PST), Patrick Turner wrote: On Feb 14, 5:14*pm, flipper wrote: On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:48:51 -0800 (PST), Patrick Turner snip But then I thought America was the home of the brave and free, and everyone could afford anything they wanted in 1955? People could afford a healthy dose of 'technology' because manufacturers put a lot of effort into making their products inexpensive enough for them to buy. Indeed, its always starts off like this, idealistic..... 'Idealism' has nothing to do with it. It's market dynamics and good business sense. Henry Ford made his fortune selling CHEAP cars that everyone could afford and paid top wages to boot. Just well Henry didn't make amplifiers. They would have been dumbed down low quality which everyone could afford. I would never have bought one. snip much stuff on which I have no comments............ I'm not at all advocating socialism where one man steals another man's freedom. You do all the time. I didn't advocate that the Chinese steal american jobs ( and hence freedom ) because american bosses were lured into operating in China. In my ideal and just world, all workers including bosses are all free subject to democratically generated government regulations to uphold law and freedoms. All the world's ppl should get equal pay and conditions for the same work and thus setting up a factory in China or Chile of Chicargo will cost the same and incur the same wages for work done. Just who is stealing whose freedom in this world is a very murky subject. But laisez fair capitalists are propelled by greed and theft is a minor concern to them. China steals US intellectual property by copying US stuff. But they are poor, the US is rich. Anyway, theft happens all over the world and human nature is deeply flawed. And its been found that formal socialism stifles creativity and the human spirit. But I'd hate to live in the USA and have to find $1,200 per month for medical insurance, then get ripped off with huge nedical bills anyway. Right, you'd rather steal the cost from someone else. Ah, so you think Taxation Is Theft. The rich can get a doctor while the poor just die. Not in Australia. Here we can ALL get the same good service, free. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure it's 'freeeeeeeeeeeeee'. Yes, free. There no such thing as 'free' and even prehistoric hunter gathers living off what is euphemistically called 'free food' had to expend the skill and energy to at least get up off their silly ass, look for it, pick it up, and stick it in their mouth. I.E. They had to WORK for their 'free food'. The free medical care is paid for by taxes. The rich pay more taxes than the poor. Australians have been voting for the continuance of our Medicare system for decades and we will NOT be changeing soon to your way of injustice. So if Ibreak a leg, I don't have to sell the house to fund a ****ing doctor who charges like a wonded bull. Snip a pile of stuff on which I have no comment... *Why is the USA in decline? why does it have such a parlous financial condition? - Because progressive-socialists have been working on destroying both free enterprise and the Constitution for around 100 years. Really? I thought the US people knew how to vote for. Maybe the US people have become so lazy and dumb they don't know, thus letting the country slide into the abyss. It seems to me that a country's financial state indicates its future health. One may compare the general finance condition of the US to that of the British Empire before that empire collapsed, or "downsized" as we might say now. In 20 years the USA probably won't be a super power, and won't be able to invade other countries like Iraq at the behest of a group of oil seeking barons. All superpowers lose their power sooner or later while other lesser countries gain power as their people figure out a collective way of becoming rich and powerful with mainly hard work. You can always point out what the rotten horrible socialist progressives have done over 100 years. But millions of americans voted for them. Your complaints and whingeing about what other people cost you is all in vain. Chinese workers gladly work for a pittance, and USA government does not know what to do..... There's more BS going on than I can poke a stick at. Mirror, mirror on the wall. I don't know about you, Pat, but I don't buy 'expensive crap'. I might buy 'cheap crap', if it's good enough to suit my needs, but no one buys 'expensive crap' just for the thrill of flushing their hard earned money down the toilet. The only ones who come close to that are governments and socialists since it's *your* money they're flushing. I have about the same mindset as you on most days. But I make exceptions to the "cheap is beautiful" rule. I didn't say "cheap is beautiful." I said "appropriately priced is beautiful." I raise my hat to the "appropriate prices" which ARC and other US makers put on their products. May US prices always stay high. For this gives everyone else a chance to compete. In 1982, I bought an Italian made DeWalt radial arm saw. It has a nice quiet running induction motor without brushes and a very sturdy cast steel saw guide. It has never failed and I use it every other day to cut something or other. It was twice the price of other gear which may have worked OK but which I thought was not made anywhere nearly as well. So the Italians got paid twice what Ryobi in Japan may have been paid. On the other hand, if someone needed a saw to use once or twice every 10 years.... People buy tube amplifiers which cost 4 times the price of an SS amp which makes the same power. People buy Merceded Benz even though a little Ford would suffice. That's your opinion as to what 'would suffice' but it's not up to you, governments, or anyone else to dictate what 'would suffice'. The Australian Government is hell bent on building a fibre optic National Broadband Network which at present estimates is to cost $43 billion, or about $2,000 per each man, woman and child in Oz, not counting inevitable cost blow outs and the cost of in-house special connections and fees for use each month. Its going to be the biggest expense on a service that Australians have been fooled into paying for, because no cost-benefit document has been tabled by the Government. Obviously 'free enterprise' is just to damn stupid to know what 'would suffice' so your favored 'big brother' has to do it for 'freeeeeeee'. I feel I am governed by fuctards and idiots, and all I get is one vote each 3 years. There are several major infrastructure expense policies including the NBN which has me feeling the government is a bunch of fuctards and idiots. The NBN is the major focus of concern about gov expediture here, and 50% of the country probably agree with the opposition political party that NBN is BS. We have a hung Parliment, and the opposition might easily become the Government, and I expect the expansion of the NBN which will otherwise take 10 years to build and complete will be scrapped in favour of a slower speed network paid for directly by ppl wanting to purchase such services. I already have "broadband: with 10MB/s speed and I don't need 100MB/s as the NBN is suposed to deliver and which will cost me more per month to use. $43billion would be far better spent on hospitals, alternative energy generation, teachers, schools, roads, bridges and 101 other things ppl need more than they need the NBN. There are vast amounts of taxpayer funds being given to private enterprise companies involved in establishing infrastructure. The ideal of open transparent tendering for contracts is not presently being adhered to so the contracts are more costly to taxpayers than they need to be. Nevertheless, despite such "waste" the money goes from one hand to another around the economy, and much ends up as collected tax to again pay for something else, like the free Medicare we have. Polititians like simple one liners to sum up what they say is happening in an economy and thus to appear to know more and thus get more votes. But economies are complex, and they are subject to concealed mis- management - The USA sub prime crisis is evidence enough. That's what happens when you grant 'big brother' the power to 'give' you things for 'freeeeeeeee'. But so what. China loves our minerals and we are so nice to do business with. We didn't even have a nasty recession like you had after the GFC. We actually have some nasty horrible socialist government regulation of bank behaviour, so no sub-prime mortgages here. The banks didn't dream up sub-prime mortgages. The government did to give 'freeeeeeee' loans to the poor. "Hi, we're from the government and here to help. We have a plan." So although the Broadband is a bit pricey, we will afford it. Your next 'freeeeeee' thing will be home mortgages. None of the USA mismanagement of finance for home building has occurred in Oz. Many here lost money where our private enterprise entities had invested with US banks and finance companies. USA incompetence meant some ppl here lost significant parts of their superanuation funds. There will never ever be any such thing as a free mortgage here in Oz. Property prices continue to rise with homes at about $500,000 now, and usualy it takes two wage packets to buy a house and live. In 1976 when I bought my house, 25% smaller than today's average, but on more land area, my wife did not have to work to help me pay for it all. She decided to leave me after 18 mths. I was easily able to pay off the mortgage alone by 1986. But I was easy going and happily shared with ppl who didn't complain about everything like my ex-wife and they helped me pay off the mortgage by giving me the going rate for renting of a room to cover expenses. They could work hard and save to buy a house like I did without a cent coming from a grumbling miserable wife. We had a right wing anti-socialist government after 1996 which got rid of Gov debts and balanced the governent budget. It brought interest rates down. Houses seemed to get cheaper, but then ordinary people figured they could borrow more to buy far more than they needed, for they were hooked on the idea they could borrow to invest as well as boorow to just own a place to live. So they all bid heavily against each other at house auctions and this raised house prices so much that houses became far more expensive than they should or could have been. Women stopped having babies and the national birthrate fell to below replacement levels. The government began to give out a "baby bonus" socialist inspired payment of $7,000 for child. Women went off the pill a bit and birthrates climbed a bit. Pram sales went up, Chinese pram makers were happy because only one child per couple is allowed in China. Child care centers flourished because many women hated being at home raising kids. The Planet growled because Oz people generate more greenhouse CO2 per head of population than most others in the world. Men still seemed to be able to replace their out- of-style "old car" every 4 years often with some lumbering huge 4WD SUV they don't need, but just want, even though it means a loan and repayments to yet another private enterprise entity. People are their own worst enemies. By 2006, our right wing gov gained control of both lower and upper houses of parliment, ie, House of Representatives and the Senate. They tried to bringin in new laws to further deregulate worker-boss agreements. It was called Work Choices, a disaster for the working person. In response, Australians voted for the present Labor gov in a landslide in 2007. Not many here will stand for anyone throwing away our rights mainly won by 100 years of unionist struggles. Unions ain't perfect but without any unions they'd be much more povety; the bosses would have Oz like a 3rd world country where only the rich are rich and **** everyone else. A property bubble, if there is one, may burst. But just as well OUR Big Brother government has SOME control over banks and private enterprise lest we end up like the USA. Australians voted for their system. It ain't perfect, but its serves us better than systems in many other countries. Meanwhile private enterprize borrowing and debt levels are huge, and all Oz ppl have to pay enough for goods and services to cover the costs of companies, including debt serviceing, and all manner of expenses incurred from mis-management which noboby heras about because enterprise is private, away from public gaze and CEOs don't have to garner votes from the public. Private enterprise is a long long way from being perfect. When you buy petrol for the car, remember you are helping to fund BP profits, and their "negative income" in the Gulf last year. One day there won't be any petrol for the car, and we ought to do something about this right now. Electric cars will probably be the solution, and make a Duesenberg look all the more inappropriate. Why didn't we take electric cars more seriously 90 years ago? Well, we needed to know about the unknown knowables. But slowly the unknown knowables are becoming known, eg, better battery tech although now China seems to have a monopoly on rare earth metals needed for the new hi-tech solutions........ Patrick Turner. |
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#14
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Those WERE Hammond days!
snip....
Just well Henry didn't make amplifiers. They would have been dumbed down low quality which everyone could afford. After all, damn the people. Let them walk and eat cake. I would never have bought one. And back then there wasn't a socialist government ordering you to. There isn't one now, and no sign of a nazi government compelling me to buy radios which could only be tuned to Hitler's favourite stations. It's called freedom, free will, choice. Plenty of freedom about at present. Henry Ford had all sorts of weird ideas about communal living with capitalist socialism incorporated. I recall hs unsuccessful experiemnts with a utopia to be called Forlandia - in south america but it all flopped. Some Ford profits donated by buyers were foolishly wasted. In other wordsm Ford could have produced cheaper cars, or cars with better efficiency which of course cost more to make, abandoned his stupid dreams and given any profits to well established charities. snip much stuff on which I have no comments............ I'm not at all advocating socialism where one man steals another man's freedom. You do all the time. I didn't advocate That you didn't get around to one of them yet doesn't change the fact you do all the time. that the Chinese steal american jobs ( and hence freedom ) because american bosses were lured into operating in China. I have no problem with fair competition with the operative word being fair. What I do have a problem with is China manipulating their frakking currency and pretending government operated slave labor camps is 'free enterprise'. What's fair about YOU complaining about not succeeding to compete with the Chinese who are bending over backwards to literally slave away at making things for Americans. The US has so often been an utter hypocrite about its trade and foreign affairs policy implementations. This is why ppl in so many places in the world trample the and burn the US flag. In my ideal and just world, all workers including bosses are all free subject to democratically generated government regulations to uphold law and freedoms. Typical liberal babble that throws in words like 'freedom' for the feel good sound of it and then proceeds to do exactly the opposite. You're 'freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'.... subject to our control. Sieg Heil. In Oz, we have lots of laws which are the natural product of a democraic society which alows Joe and Mary Citizen the un-molested freedom of walking an average street without being beaten, robbed, raped or ripped off in some deal. We need laws. If you are advocating anarchy, and you wish to practice anarchy then sooner or later someone will arrest you and deal with you fairly. In Hitler's time the law was not so good for those like you and you'd be taken some place secretly and shot. Australia has very little in common with pre WW2 Germany. Democracy extends the most rights to the most people. It als expects members of the democracy, ie, you and me who were born into it to understand its freedoms and laws and to practice duty of care towards others by practice of virtuous and tolerant ways of living. There is always a huge cry about rights to this and that but we never hear anyone mentioning duty of care which come with every right that is won through struggle, or via a ballot box. If you don't like democracy, then move where it isn't. All the world's ppl should get equal pay and conditions for the same work and thus setting up a factory in China or Chile of Chicargo will cost the same and incur the same wages for work done. Hitler tried to conquer the world too. What on earth has Hitler got to do with EQUAL SOCIAL EQUITY FOR ALL PEOPLE ON THE PLANET? Just who is stealing whose freedom in this world is a very murky subject. It's very simple. Freedom is *not* having someone tell you what to do. But we must respond to the needs of others and yield to their requests to survive co-operatively. It is inevitable that any person MUST do what some other tells him at some time. Freedom is a heck of a lot more than you think it is. But laisez fair capitalists Another typical tactic: change the topic. No one has been talking about laissez fair. But you have. are propelled by greed and theft No, that's a fantasy predicated on your opinion everyone are liars and thieves, excepting you, of course, and, Lord only knows how, government saints. The legal records in our country and yours would reveal the degree to which private enterprise abuses many other innocent people and environments. Open your mind man. is a minor concern to them. China steals US intellectual property by copying US stuff. But they are poor, the US is rich. The same theft logic as 'free healthcare': we want it, you have it, we take it. Anyway, theft happens all over the world So do dictatorships. You advocating that too now? Dictators seem to be finding it harder and harder to control and subjugate their people while amassing an obscene amount of money in foriegn bank accounts. This is what real theft is on a state level. Taxation money spent on hospitals and affordable health care is NOT THEFT. Perhaps if you don't like taxation, the US should abolish it and then send you a bill for all the things a government does. So, you'd then have to sell your house to pay such bills and when you broke your leg ice skating you'd have to plead to a rich uncle or else end up so riddled with debt that they'd lock you up ina Debtor's House as they did in dear old Britain before draconian laws were abandoned and taxation was applied fairly. and human nature is deeply flawed. Which is why we have laws and governments to provide for mutual security. Indeed, on this I agree. If men were angels, no government would be necessary. - - James Madison "But a devil a minute is born unto us" - - myself. And its been found that formal socialism stifles creativity and the human spirit. But I'd hate to live in the USA and have to find $1,200 per month for medical insurance, then get ripped off with huge nedical bills anyway. Right, you'd rather steal the cost from someone else. Ah, so you think Taxation Is Theft. There are plenty of people who do including, as for example, the well known sociologist and political economist Franz Oppenheimer who wrote "There are two fundamentally opposed means whereby man, requiring sustenance, is impelled to obtain the necessary means for satisfying his desires. These are work and robbery, one's own labor and the forcible appropriation of the labor of others." But it rings hollow and smells like BS..... Ii his definition the State is organized theft, period. All of it. Sure, more BS. How was the US ever to help wiin WW2 without taxation? If they'd sent you a bill instead you wouldn't have paid it so the US would have lost and Japan and Germany would have won. Damn it man, taxation is needed by democracy for it to survive. Wake up. Our (the United States) founding fathers were more generous and, as the saying goes, "it depends." Government function and taxation that is, as our Constitution stipulates and requires, "for the GENERAL welfare (of the States) without prejudice or favoritism is proper (as long as the power is granted by the Constitution). Taxation expressly for the purpose of appropriating the funds of some for use by others is not for the general welfare, is not without prejudice (screw the rich *******s), and certainly not without favoritism. It is organized theft. More BS. I have been glued to my TV on Sunday evenings while watching the weekly saga and historical story of John Adams and the establishment and continuance of the United States of America. I would argue that America's Fathers all realised that there were at least TWO uncomfortable but necessary features of a democracy - taxes and dentists. We want it, you have it, we take it. I'm glad "they take it" because then we have police to enforce motoring laws which would otherwise be flouted leaving thousands more killed and maimed. There is no need to bribe a police officer because they are paid fairly. The same can be said about public funding of Medicare. Taxation is a means by which ppl can collectively pay for a useful service efficiently and without the super unrestrained greed of medical experts ripping everyone off. You are employing the typical liberal hogwash of a false equivalency in that if a particular tax is fair and reasonable then ANY tax you darn well please to impose is automatically fair and reasonable simply by being a 'tax'. It just isn't so. 'Democracy' does not work without principles and a moral people. I.E. Your 'gang' being bigger than their 'gang' doesn't make you 'right' or else Genghis, rape pillage and burn, Kahn was one of the most 'righteous' leaders of all time. The rich can get a doctor while the poor just die. Not in Australia. Hate to break it to you but everyone dies, even in Australia. Sure ppl die; the rich tend to die at a later age than the poor. The rich can afford more care over the level of what is provided by the public through taxation. But the free treatment at hospitals in Oz is at such a high standard that the poor often live longer than the rich. Nobody in Oz will agree with you. Not even me. Here we can ALL get the same good service, free. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure it's 'freeeeeeeeeeeeee'. Yes, free. No it isn't and you damn well know it isn't because, down below, you talk about 'who pays for it'. Everyone in Oz pays taxes with the rich paying much more per dollar earned than the poor. BHP just made over 10 billion dollars profit for the last 6 months. I guess their earnings helps pay for lots of things. It is as we would have it. BHP and the people of Oz all seem quite happy about the arrangement, and nobody is planning a Cuban style revolution, and nor is BHP arming its workers at its head office so they might shoot the tax collectors.. Taxation is here to stay, and just as well. I think I have said enough about this whole subject. I doubt you will ever change, and it would seem you must have a serious irrational grievance towards most others who see things differently. I have only limited time, and I don't like repeating myself. Despite its imperfections, I find Oz a very good place to live. Patrick Turner. |
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#15
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/16/11 23:14, Patrick Turner so witilly quipped:
The US has so often been an utter hypocrite about its trade and foreign affairs policy implementations. This is why ppl in so many places in the world trample the and burn the US flag. It's the stupid politicians that cause this to happen. Our current sitting president is no stranger to this kind of thing, going around apologizing to everybody and gaining even MORE disrespect in the process. The USA would get the respect it ought to have by not 'playing politics' and simply standing for what most people think America is (or is supposed to be) (/me thinking of Ronald Reagan at the moment). Actions are better than words and stupid symbolic gestures. Then again, if everybody agreed on everything the world would be very, very boring. 'Atlas Shrugged Part 1' comes out on our 'Tax Day' (april 15). Should be fun. |
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#16
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Those WERE Hammond days!
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#17
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On 02/15/11 16:58, flipper so witilly quipped:
[shipping cost to the U.S. would be prohibitive, though] There is an Ebay Australia, you know. oops, I failed 'the test'. I guess I'm guilty of an 'Epcott Center' viewpoint of the world. |
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#18
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Those WERE Hammond days!
On Feb 23, 4:24*pm, Big Bad Bob BigBadBob-at-mrp3-
wrote: On 02/16/11 23:14, Patrick Turner so witilly quipped: The US has so often been an utter hypocrite about its trade and foreign affairs policy implementations. This is why ppl in so many places in the world trample the and burn the US flag. It's the stupid politicians that cause this to happen. *Our current sitting president is no stranger to this kind of thing, going around apologizing to everybody and gaining even MORE disrespect in the process. *The USA would get the respect it ought to have by not 'playing politics' and simply standing for what most people think America is (or is supposed to be) (/me thinking of Ronald Reagan at the moment). Actions are better than words and stupid symbolic gestures. Then again, if everybody agreed on everything the world would be very, very boring. Today's Canberra Times had an article citing that 82% of Egyptian people hated the US. It is unfortunate that so many hate the US because it interferes with regimes which trample and burn the rights of the people. One has only to study the history of the middle east and how the US propped up all these dictators who are now rather worried by the protests now occuring. America decided it could NOT afford to have no hedgemony in the ME because of its thirst for Arab oil. The US found it inconveneient that the very thing they needed most was situated under the dirty smelly feet of millions of poor brown people. So hence the Nice Part of America clashes with the Nasty Part of America. Its so politically nice for americans to talk of democracy and freedom and human rights for everyone who is down trodden in ME countries. But hey, all those millions MUST remain dirt poor for the US to remain STOINKINGLY rich, and so practical measures by successive US governments ensured the brown skin millions in ME stayed down, in their place, by means of denying them any access to the same way of life enjoyed in Nth America. Practical measures included propping up dictatorial governments who kept their people subdued. In time, the US intervention in Iraq will come to be seen as another giant mistake like Vietnam. Had Iraq been left alone, its people may sooner or later have risen up against Saddam and his fuctard sons who would never have lasted long if they'd ever followed after Saddam. Rome made a lotta mistakes in foreign policy, and so did Britain when it had an Empire. Mistakes will continue and youse ain't seen nothin' yet. With the looming climate change and hugely increasing demand for oil, water, food, and other necessities now wanted by all the brown skin have nots of the world, about 4 billions, then expect some real good old wars and probably with nuclear weapons. Just why would anyone expect the rest of this century be less bloody than the last many centuries? Sure our stupid polititians are to blame. But also everyone who voted for them. And don't forget THEIR polititians, ie, the heads of state of all those many other hot dirty countries where their heads of state murdered their way into power without any such silly western ideas as democracy or elections. I am quite serenly content that I never had any children and I recall I considered breeding quite un-necessary after turning 17. It means that YOUR children will have less of a fight to survive in a world because they won't have to compete with mine. Humanity and Hu- womanity are both very flawed species, and at present rates of "progress" they will make themselves extinct within 1,000 years unless they can change. But there's no sign of change being soon enough, or enough of it. So don't worry, be happy, it'll all be over one day. |
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