Today I had the installers at Circuit City attempt to hook up my IDQ10
sub, MTX 404 amp, and a new pair of Kicker coaxials. After a little bit
of confusion on how to hook it up to use the fader as a sub-control, they
actually figured it out.

Unfortunately there's a pretty bad whining noise when the car is running
that fluctuates in tone when the RPMs of the car change. I was told this
was due to the fact that I did not use the RCA cables and chose to go with
the speaker-level inputs, which makes sense. So I guess I will be picking
up a new headunit next week to solve this problem (it better solve it). I
also get a pop when I first turn the radio on so I'm hoping a new HU will
fix that as well.

My Kicker K65 coaxials don't seem to put out much midbass which is a
little disappointing. When I have the sub turned down, I get very little
bass whatsoever. I will be putting some baffle material in the speaker
areas soon so hopefully that will help.

Thanks again to all the folks in here that took time to help me out with
their advice. You guys saved me a lot of money and trouble.

Don

Unfortunately there's a pretty bad whining noise when the car is running
that fluctuates in tone when the RPMs of the car change. I was told this
was due to the fact that I did not use the RCA cables and chose to go with
the speaker-level inputs, which makes sense.

No it does not make sense. The speaker level connection should not have any
noise. What you have sounds like a ground loop, which they should fix for free.
It has nothing to do with RCA's vs. speaker level. They are just too lazy to
fix the problem.

So I guess I will be picking
up a new headunit next week to solve this problem (it better solve it). I
also get a pop when I first turn the radio on so I'm hoping a new HU will
fix that as well.

You do not have a HU problem!! You have poor installation problems! If you are
happy with the HU you have then don't change it because all of your problems
can be fixed with a little work on a crappy install.

My Kicker K65 coaxials don't seem to put out much midbass which is a
little disappointing. When I have the sub turned down, I get very little
bass whatsoever. I will be putting some baffle material in the speaker
areas soon so hopefully that will help.

A good seal with the door should help, also sealing the door in general will
help. But I would check the amps crossover frequency first, as that is easy to
investigate and may fix your problems.


Thanks again to all the folks in here that took time to help me out with
their advice. You guys saved me a lot of money and trouble.

Don

If you need more details to go to CC with just ask.

Les

totally agree, usually it's a poor ground that cause that Hummmmm......

those kickers "should" have nice midbass, likely a crossover setting....turn
off the sub and adjust the crossover, making sure it's on high pass,
starting somewhere near 60-70 Hz, but it's really up to your ears to figure
it out.....once you get what you think is good (with a couple different CDs)
turn up the Sub, you should "bleed" into the frequency ranges a little
bit....(if the 6.5's are set to 70Hz and above, set the sub at about 75 and
below, this will eliminate any missing freq's and allow for a little meshing
of sorts)

Somewhre nearer to 80+ Hz bass begins to become directional, so you should
usually try to keep you subs below this point otherwise your sound stage can
become out of alignment.....your 6.5's may go lower than 60, but you really
don't need to, your sub is handling that.

There are other ways to do this but your ears are the best way, just stay
within the parameters of your drivers and you won't have any issues.....this
is how I setup my last two vehicles and they sounded great to me, the next
car, 2k1 Impala, is getting a nice component setup.

Also It's best to eliminate the install issues before you mess with the
setting too much, CC might adjust it more and then again the hummmm might
throw you off while adjusting......



"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
Unfortunately there's a pretty bad whining noise when the car is running
that fluctuates in tone when the RPMs of the car change. I was told this
was due to the fact that I did not use the RCA cables and chose to go
with
the speaker-level inputs, which makes sense.

No it does not make sense. The speaker level connection should not have
any
noise. What you have sounds like a ground loop, which they should fix for
free.
It has nothing to do with RCA's vs. speaker level. They are just too lazy
to
fix the problem.

So I guess I will be picking
up a new headunit next week to solve this problem (it better solve it).
I
also get a pop when I first turn the radio on so I'm hoping a new HU will
fix that as well.

You do not have a HU problem!! You have poor installation problems! If you
are
happy with the HU you have then don't change it because all of your
problems
can be fixed with a little work on a crappy install.

My Kicker K65 coaxials don't seem to put out much midbass which is a
little disappointing. When I have the sub turned down, I get very little
bass whatsoever. I will be putting some baffle material in the speaker
areas soon so hopefully that will help.

A good seal with the door should help, also sealing the door in general
will
help. But I would check the amps crossover frequency first, as that is
easy to
investigate and may fix your problems.


Thanks again to all the folks in here that took time to help me out with
their advice. You guys saved me a lot of money and trouble.

Don

If you need more details to go to CC with just ask.

Les

Unfortunately there's a pretty bad whining noise when the car is running
that fluctuates in tone when the RPMs of the car change. I was told this
was due to the fact that I did not use the RCA cables and chose to go with
the speaker-level inputs, which makes sense.

No, this is strictly due to their incompetence. If they told you this lie,
they're being half-assed. Thousands of installations are done without RCAs
and without alternator whine! Take it back and demand them to fix it.

My Kicker K65 coaxials don't seem to put out much midbass which is a
little disappointing. When I have the sub turned down, I get very little
bass whatsoever. I will be putting some baffle material in the speaker
areas soon so hopefully that will help.

It's poorly installed. That's all.

Thanks again to all the folks in here that took time to help me out with
their advice. You guys saved me a lot of money and trouble.

Unfortunately, it sounds like your results suck. That's a moron installer
for you. "Moron installer" - redundant I know.

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:00:46 +0000, Soundfreak03 wrote:

No it does not make sense. The speaker level connection should not have any
noise. What you have sounds like a ground loop, which they should fix for free.
It has nothing to do with RCA's vs. speaker level. They are just too lazy to
fix the problem.

Okay, thanks for that information. My only problem will be trying to
convince them to fix it for free, as I already complained immediately
after the installation and asked if there was anything they could do to
fix it. They told me the only thing would be to "turn down the amp" which
I guess means the gain(?) but they said it had already been "turned down"
a good amount to lower the whine. And they of course suggested a new
headunit.

So I guess I will head up there tomorrow and try to get them to fix it.

I appreciate the help.
Don

Okay, thanks for that information. My only problem will be trying to
convince them to fix it for free, as I already complained immediately
after the installation and asked if there was anything they could do to
fix it. They told me the only thing would be to "turn down the amp" which
I guess means the gain(?) but they said it had already been "turned down"
a good amount to lower the whine. And they of course suggested a new
headunit.

Talk to the manager. Tell them you've been to several shops already and
they all said it could be fixed without purchasing new equipment. But tell
them these shops would charge you labor. Then demand a refund if they can't
fix it. If they still refuse, break things.

I'm completely clueless with setting crossovers and from my understanding
the MTX404 amp has fixed crossovers at 85Hz. I assumed this meant I could
not adjust the levels but maybe I'm wrong?

Don

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:23:22 +0000, ReEfErMaDnEsS wrote:

those kickers "should" have nice midbass, likely a crossover setting....turn
off the sub and adjust the crossover, making sure it's on high pass,
starting somewhere near 60-70 Hz, but it's really up to your ears to figure
it out.....once you get what you think is good (with a couple different CDs)
turn up the Sub, you should "bleed" into the frequency ranges a little
bit....(if the 6.5's are set to 70Hz and above, set the sub at about 75 and
below, this will eliminate any missing freq's and allow for a little meshing
of sorts)

Somewhre nearer to 80+ Hz bass begins to become directional, so you should
usually try to keep you subs below this point otherwise your sound stage can
become out of alignment.....your 6.5's may go lower than 60, but you really
don't need to, your sub is handling that.

There are other ways to do this but your ears are the best way, just stay
within the parameters of your drivers and you won't have any issues.....this
is how I setup my last two vehicles and they sounded great to me, the next
car, 2k1 Impala, is getting a nice component setup.

Also It's best to eliminate the install issues before you mess with the
setting too much, CC might adjust it more and then again the hummmm might
throw you off while adjusting......

I agree engine noise can come from many things and 75% of time it is
installation related, but sometimes it just is not resolvable. For
instance, when installing my system in my car, I had everything done to
standards:

Power Wire ran down drivers side 5-6 inches away from factory wiring
RCA's down passenger side 5-6 inches away from factory wiring
Ground was bolted through the car frame (paint scrapped off to bare metal)

And I still had engine noise. I tried all methods of remedy and could not
get rid of it. So I decided to live with it, but really I didn't. I didn't
like how the amp (Rockford Fosgate) sounded so I returned it and bought a
different amp (Pioneer), and after installing the new amp, there was no
engine noise. I was like, weird! Nothing changed in the system in terms of
wiring so it must have been the amp causing the problem. Also, those damn
flea market amps (JDL, Rockwood, Pyramid) those are just noisy pigs and are
always gonna give you engine noise. Cheap cables can affect engine noise as
well....did they use quality cables?

One thing you should check with, is see if there is a policy on engine
noise. In my shop, on our invoices it clearly states that we will try to
resolve any problems with engine noise for free, but cannot guarantee we can
eliminate the problem.

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
news
Okay, thanks for that information. My only problem will be trying to
convince them to fix it for free, as I already complained immediately
after the installation and asked if there was anything they could do to
fix it. They told me the only thing would be to "turn down the amp"
which
I guess means the gain(?) but they said it had already been "turned
down"
a good amount to lower the whine. And they of course suggested a new
headunit.

Talk to the manager. Tell them you've been to several shops already and
they all said it could be fixed without purchasing new equipment. But
tell
them these shops would charge you labor. Then demand a refund if they
can't
fix it. If they still refuse, break things.

I just noticed on the back of the workorder sheet is the following:

"Engine Noise Exclusion - Engine noise is a problem which may occur in some
installations and is not easily predicted. It is not a problem caused by
faulty installation or equipment. For this reason, engine noise is
EXCLUDED from coverage under the Labor Coverage Limited Warranty."

So I guess they're not obligated to fix the noise. Hmmmm....

Don


On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 05:12:11 +0000, mayhemkrew wrote:

One thing you should check with, is see if there is a policy on engine
noise. In my shop, on our invoices it clearly states that we will try to
resolve any problems with engine noise for free, but cannot guarantee we can
eliminate the problem.

I agree engine noise can come from many things and 75% of time it is
installation related, but sometimes it just is not resolvable. For
instance, when installing my system in my car, I had everything done to
standards:


I have never found a noise problem that could not be solved. Even your system
proves that to be true. Unfortunately, sometimes you have a faulty peice of
gear that needs replacing or repairing.
But this is a clear cut case of bad installation.

Cheap cables can affect engine noise as
well....did they use quality cables?


Even the Radio Shack cables are quality enough. 99% of the time the generic
cables will work just fine. Although there are those occasional times where
they due have some noise. But in those few instances over the years after
searching I would usually find a break in the wire.

Les

Talk directly to the manager and make sure you are well informed before you
do that.


"Don Joe" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:00:46 +0000, Soundfreak03 wrote:

No it does not make sense. The speaker level connection should not have
any
noise. What you have sounds like a ground loop, which they should fix
for free.
It has nothing to do with RCA's vs. speaker level. They are just too
lazy to
fix the problem.

Okay, thanks for that information. My only problem will be trying to
convince them to fix it for free, as I already complained immediately
after the installation and asked if there was anything they could do to
fix it. They told me the only thing would be to "turn down the amp" which
I guess means the gain(?) but they said it had already been "turned down"
a good amount to lower the whine. And they of course suggested a new
headunit.

So I guess I will head up there tomorrow and try to get them to fix it.

I appreciate the help.
Don

"Engine Noise Exclusion - Engine noise is a problem which may occur in some
installations and is not easily predicted. It is not a problem caused by
faulty installation or equipment. For this reason, engine noise is
EXCLUDED from coverage under the Labor Coverage Limited Warranty."

So I guess they're not obligated to fix the noise. Hmmmm....


Get in thier face about it. That is merely an excuse to allow thier installers
to perform substandard work. Tell them that you will get the noise taken care
of at another shop or on your own and when you do you will ask them for a
partial refund. You will have just proven thier policy wrong. Like I said in
another post, I have never found a noise problem that could not be fixed.
Sometimes you have to go through great lengths to diagnose it though, but it is
fixable. Don't stop at the manager of car audio, go to the general manager of
the store if you have too. Where are you located?

Les

Hope you are not referring to my installation as being bad? I wish I
knew what kind of amp it is and I can make a better judment on the case.
Although getting a new HU is not a bad idea, but you shouldn't have to
resort to that to eliminate engine noise.

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...

But this is a clear cut case of bad installation.

Les

I see it is a fixed setting, my bad, I didn't realize this, but then again I
don't remember reading what amp you used....to me it's about a c-hair too
high, I prefer 75 to be fair, at least that where I thought my stuff was set
at on the last install....

since when is a fixed 85Hz crossover the norm???? I guess they aren't all
variable these days???



"Don Joe" wrote in message
news
I'm completely clueless with setting crossovers and from my understanding
the MTX404 amp has fixed crossovers at 85Hz. I assumed this meant I could
not adjust the levels but maybe I'm wrong?

Don

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:23:22 +0000, ReEfErMaDnEsS wrote:

those kickers "should" have nice midbass, likely a crossover
setting....turn
off the sub and adjust the crossover, making sure it's on high pass,
starting somewhere near 60-70 Hz, but it's really up to your ears to
figure
it out.....once you get what you think is good (with a couple different
CDs)
turn up the Sub, you should "bleed" into the frequency ranges a little
bit....(if the 6.5's are set to 70Hz and above, set the sub at about 75
and
below, this will eliminate any missing freq's and allow for a little
meshing
of sorts)

Somewhre nearer to 80+ Hz bass begins to become directional, so you
should
usually try to keep you subs below this point otherwise your sound stage
can
become out of alignment.....your 6.5's may go lower than 60, but you
really
don't need to, your sub is handling that.

There are other ways to do this but your ears are the best way, just
stay
within the parameters of your drivers and you won't have any
issues.....this
is how I setup my last two vehicles and they sounded great to me, the
next
car, 2k1 Impala, is getting a nice component setup.

Also It's best to eliminate the install issues before you mess with the
setting too much, CC might adjust it more and then again the hummmm
might
throw you off while adjusting......

I got the work done at the Plymouth Meeting/Conshohocken CC which is in
the Philadelphia suburbs area.

Don

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 05:50:33 +0000, Soundfreak03 wrote:

Get in thier face about it. That is merely an excuse to allow thier installers
to perform substandard work. Tell them that you will get the noise taken care
of at another shop or on your own and when you do you will ask them for a
partial refund. You will have just proven thier policy wrong. Like I said in
another post, I have never found a noise problem that could not be fixed.
Sometimes you have to go through great lengths to diagnose it though, but it is
fixable. Don't stop at the manager of car audio, go to the general manager of
the store if you have too. Where are you located?

Les

"Engine Noise Exclusion - Engine noise is a problem which may occur in
some
installations and is not easily predicted. It is not a problem caused by
faulty installation or equipment.

Yes it is. It is ALWAYS due to faulty installation or equipment. It is
NEVER anything else.

I got the work done at the Plymouth Meeting/Conshohocken CC which is in
the Philadelphia suburbs area.

Go to another shop. Get an estimate. Take it to CC.

Woooo hold on there Mark..

Hard for me to swallow your statement there.
"It is ALWAYS due to faulty installation or equipment. It is NEVER anything
else."

I think by the term "equipment" you mean audio equipment?

I dont feel your correct.
I have seen old spark plug wires cause noise, as well as a bad battery.

So for you to say "NEVER anything else" is just not true.

Woooo hold on there Mark..

Hard for me to swallow your statement there.
"It is ALWAYS due to faulty installation or equipment. It is NEVER
anything
else."

I think by the term "equipment" you mean audio equipment?

I dont feel your correct.
I have seen old spark plug wires cause noise, as well as a bad battery.

So for you to say "NEVER anything else" is just not true.

Then there's an installation problem. It's always one or the other. I too
have seen plug noise introduced, but a good installer can get around it.
I've never been in a situation where I've done an installation and said to
the person "sorry, there's electrical noise and all you can do is live with
it."

Hard for me to swallow your statement there.
"It is ALWAYS due to faulty installation or equipment. It is NEVER anything
else."

Why? I cannot think of an instance where it has not been one of those 2 things.
Usually poor installation IME.

I dont feel your correct.
I have seen old spark plug wires cause noise, as well as a bad battery.

So for you to say "NEVER anything else" is just not true.

There are ways to work around noise problems. It may be more radical on some
installs. I have never, and would never. accept that there is just noise. To me
it is a cop-out and a reason to be lazy. It is easy to blame but usually harder
to find out what it is and fix it.

Les

I see alot of folks are responding to your problem with BAD INFO
hopefully I can help

Don Joe wrote:

Unfortunately there's a pretty bad whining noise when the car is running
that fluctuates in tone when the RPMs of the car change. I was told this
was due to the fact that I did not use the RCA cables and chose to go with
the speaker-level inputs, which makes sense.

Many amplifiers have the speaker level inputs that are not isolated very well.

many times using them causes the ground loop noise you have (whinning)
you can use a decent hi/lo convertor to get rid of the problem, the hi lo
will convert the speaker output to RCAs for the amp...

So I guess I will be picking
up a new headunit next week to solve this problem (it better solve it).

that should solve it as well.

I
also get a pop when I first turn the radio on so I'm hoping a new HU will
fix that as well.

The pop is normal, the amp is on before the radio comes on because
your radio is not designed for an amp.... Its not a big problem to worry
about...

If you do get a headunit with RCAs it will solve that problem as well.


Eddie Runner
TeamROCS #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/

This is a simple problem of needing a decent hi/lo adapter.
has nothing to do with bad install or bad gear!

(badly designed hi level input maybe)

Mark Zarella wrote:

Yes it is. It is ALWAYS due to faulty installation or equipment. It is
NEVER anything else.

This is a simple problem of needing a decent hi/lo adapter.
has nothing to do with bad install or bad gear!

(badly designed hi level input maybe)

In this specific case, that's probably true. I was talking about the
general case. It's always due to either an insufficient installation or
something being broken. In this case, assuming your assessment is correct,
it would be an insufficient installation. The notion that they would give
him back his car with the alternator whine is appalling. They should have
done it right the first time.

You didnt read his original post very well Mark...

I tend to agree with you,sorta, but in this case a whole bunch
of folks were giving the guy bad advice based on the
wrong assumptions, including you....

The guy had a *specific* problem, a good installer with
a decent amount of experience under his belt should
know the problem and the solution...

But alot of NON
installers with THEORY that doesnt apply to this particular
instance are leading the poor fellow down the wrong path
to happieness!

My reply seemd to be the only correct one out of a huge
amount of bad replies, including some to demand his
money back and get estimates and all kinds of wild
goose chases....

Mark I hope you dont feel an obligation to try to answer
every single RAC question even if you dont have a clue!!

Generally your advice is good, but keep it to what you
actually know and your reputation will last longer... ;-)

Eddie Runner
TeamROCS #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/


Mark Zarella wrote:

This is a simple problem of needing a decent hi/lo adapter.
has nothing to do with bad install or bad gear!

(badly designed hi level input maybe)

In this specific case, that's probably true. I was talking about the
general case. It's always due to either an insufficient installation or
something being broken. In this case, assuming your assessment is correct,
it would be an insufficient installation. The notion that they would give
him back his car with the alternator whine is appalling. They should have
done it right the first time.

How on earth was that bad advice? He went back and did exactly what I said!
And it worked!

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
You didnt read his original post very well Mark...

I tend to agree with you,sorta, but in this case a whole bunch
of folks were giving the guy bad advice based on the
wrong assumptions, including you....

The guy had a *specific* problem, a good installer with
a decent amount of experience under his belt should
know the problem and the solution...

But alot of NON
installers with THEORY that doesnt apply to this particular
instance are leading the poor fellow down the wrong path
to happieness!

My reply seemd to be the only correct one out of a huge
amount of bad replies, including some to demand his
money back and get estimates and all kinds of wild
goose chases....

Mark I hope you dont feel an obligation to try to answer
every single RAC question even if you dont have a clue!!

Generally your advice is good, but keep it to what you
actually know and your reputation will last longer... ;-)

Eddie Runner
TeamROCS #001 http://www.teamrocs.com/forums/


Mark Zarella wrote:

This is a simple problem of needing a decent hi/lo adapter.
has nothing to do with bad install or bad gear!

(badly designed hi level input maybe)

In this specific case, that's probably true. I was talking about the
general case. It's always due to either an insufficient installation or
something being broken. In this case, assuming your assessment is
correct,
it would be an insufficient installation. The notion that they would
give
him back his car with the alternator whine is appalling. They should
have
done it right the first time.

I dont recall you telling him the problem was related
to the hi level speaker inputs??

You went on and on about how the gear was bad
or the intall was bad...

In this case it was neither one....

Read the replies, I was the ONLY ONE that knew the
problem and the answer...

Eddie

Mark Zarella wrote:

How on earth was that bad advice? He went back and did exactly what I said!
And it worked!

I dont recall you telling him the problem was related
to the hi level speaker inputs??

I didn't tell him what the problem was. I simply told him to go back and
demand that they fix it, and perhaps even get a quote from another place.
He did both of those things and the problem was solved.

You went on and on about how the gear was bad
or the intall was bad...

In this case it was neither one....

If you fail to install a hilo and the installation warrants one, then it's a
bad installation. If you do an installation and you give them back a car
with alt whine, then your job is incomplete and therefore you haven't done
the installation correctly.

Eddie,
I do remember reading that you mentioned the potential ground-loop problem
if not using RCAs in an earlier thread. I guess this was the problem,
although the installer specifically said it had something to do with the
auto-turn-on/off feature of the amp. But the problem is gone now so I'm
just glad to be done with the installers and I'm glad my system sounds
good.

Thanks for helping me out along the way,
Don

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:51:10 +0000, Eddie Runner wrote:

I see alot of folks are responding to your problem with BAD INFO
hopefully I can help
Many amplifiers have the speaker level inputs that are not isolated very well.

many times using them causes the ground loop noise you have (whinning)
you can use a decent hi/lo convertor to get rid of the problem, the hi lo
will convert the speaker output to RCAs for the amp...

I think you missed my post, it came pretty late in the melee...

the turn on wire caused your POPing problem....

the lack of a line level convertor caused your ground loop
problem....

What you bought was a hilo (or line level convertor)
they provide better isolation than the cheesy one thats built
into your amplifier....

I have told folks that here on RAC before and they dont
seem to wanna believe me.

But your case proves it.
Plus I have been installin long enough to know this problem well
(since 1974)

Eddie Runner

Don Joe wrote:

Eddie,
I do remember reading that you mentioned the potential ground-loop problem
if not using RCAs in an earlier thread. I guess this was the problem,
although the installer specifically said it had something to do with the
auto-turn-on/off feature of the amp. But the problem is gone now so I'm
just glad to be done with the installers and I'm glad my system sounds
good.

Thanks for helping me out along the way,
Don

Mark Zarella wrote:

I dont recall you telling him the problem was related
to the hi level speaker inputs??

I didn't tell him what the problem was.

then how can you tell him how to fix it??

I simply told him to go back and
demand that they fix it, and perhaps even get a quote from another place.
He did both of those things and the problem was solved.

DEMANDING STUFF from an installer may be about as dangerous
as demanding something from a cook at a resturant!!

A cook will smile and say OK, but then spit in your food and laugh
at you whil you eat it!!

An installer (when ****ed) can do worse!!!

Its so much fun when a customer is ranting and raving to smail and hook
thier speaker sup out of phase.... Or screw with thier antenna line so
the signal is lousy (but not totally gone) or toss some loose screws
up behind the dash so they rattle! And eventually when they fall out
on the floor the customer will panic thinking the dash is gonna fall out...
OR WORSE!!!

Mark, you dont understand installers at all!
Installers (including me) do this work because they love it!
You go demanding something of them and they get cranky and dont
love it anymore (while working on your car)...

Why not be freindly?
With my assesment of the situation the customer could ask the
installer to try a hilo and it would be over...

With your advice there could be a war!!

You went on and on about how the gear was bad
or the intall was bad...

In this case it was neither one....

If you fail to install a hilo and the installation warrants one, then it's a
bad installation.

Not true from an installers point of view, spacially of the customer supplied
the amp, or if there is a factory radio to blame it on....

Installers say, its the customers gear, if it doesnt work the way it should
thats OK cause maybe he will buy one from us!
Thats pretty normal.....

And it was installed as per instructions frm the amp manufacturer.
Not all installers know this problem ...

Plus, we dont know if the customer refused paying a little extra
for one method of connection over another method which was
cheaper.....

If you do an installation and you give them back a car
with alt whine, then your job is incomplete and therefore you haven't done
the installation correctly.

You dont know much about most installers Mark, you oughta
stay with answering stuff that you know about...

remember, your not obligated to answer every damn question
that comes along....

Eddie Runner

I dont recall you telling him the problem was related
to the hi level speaker inputs??

I didn't tell him what the problem was.

then how can you tell him how to fix it??

Why should he have to fix it when he already PAID for the service? Your
advice was BAD because you suggested that he do it himself. Luckily, he
didn't listen to you.


I simply told him to go back and
demand that they fix it, and perhaps even get a quote from another
place.
He did both of those things and the problem was solved.

DEMANDING STUFF from an installer may be about as dangerous
as demanding something from a cook at a resturant!!

A cook will smile and say OK, but then spit in your food and laugh
at you whil you eat it!!

An installer (when ****ed) can do worse!!!

When it's done in a tactful manner, like the poster apparently did, they end
up doing it right and the customer ends up happy, like the poster apparently
is. Are you saying he did the wrong thing?


Its so much fun when a customer is ranting and raving to smail and hook
thier speaker sup out of phase.... Or screw with thier antenna line so
the signal is lousy (but not totally gone) or toss some loose screws
up behind the dash so they rattle! And eventually when they fall out
on the floor the customer will panic thinking the dash is gonna fall
out...
OR WORSE!!!

Remind me not to go to your shop.


Mark, you dont understand installers at all!
Installers (including me) do this work because they love it!
You go demanding something of them and they get cranky and dont
love it anymore (while working on your car)...

I'm sorry if demanding competence is such an irrational request. In EVERY
other business there is (except for maybe the government), a customer should
always expect the work they pay for to be done. When they don't get it
done, then by definition they've been ripped off. This guy was ripped off
until he went back to them and requested that they fix their mistake.


Why not be freindly?
With my assesment of the situation the customer could ask the
installer to try a hilo and it would be over...

You should always be friendly. Otherwise, they won't do the job for you.


With your advice there could be a war!!

Clearly I was being facetious when I said "go break something".

If you fail to install a hilo and the installation warrants one, then
it's a
bad installation.

Not true from an installers point of view, spacially of the customer
supplied
the amp, or if there is a factory radio to blame it on....

Of course it's true. They ended up doing it right in the long run. So
there was obviously something thewy could have done. Giving the car back
with alternator whine is as ridiculous as giving it back with the door
panels still not on the car. In either case, it's incomplete!


Installers say, its the customers gear, if it doesnt work the way it
should
thats OK cause maybe he will buy one from us!
Thats pretty normal.....

Yes, it's normal to try to swindle the customer. We always talk about that
in here.


And it was installed as per instructions frm the amp manufacturer.
Not all installers know this problem ...

Plus, we dont know if the customer refused paying a little extra
for one method of connection over another method which was
cheaper.....

That's not the case here.


If you do an installation and you give them back a car
with alt whine, then your job is incomplete and therefore you haven't
done
the installation correctly.

You dont know much about most installers Mark, you oughta
stay with answering stuff that you know about...

Yeah, I do know plenty about installers. I know that most of them are
incompetent. I'm finding that out now that I need work done myself. I
finally found the "best" place in my area to have it done, and it's almost
all wrong. I too have alternator whine, an intermittent channel (I can see
that there's tension on one of the RCA cables, so it keeps popping out over
bumps), a crappy front and rear speaker installation, a stupid looking
cumbersome amp rack not built according to my request, and loose door panels
and popped grilles. Now I have to live with it for 6 months until I can fix
their mistakes! Yeah, I know how installers work.

Mark Zarella wrote:

then how can you tell him how to fix it??

Why should he have to fix it when he already PAID for the service?

We dont exactly know what he paid for and what he didnt!!
Obviously he didnt pay for another hi/lo adapter or he wouldnt
have had the $19 charge when they did fix it up for him...

And if you READ his original post the installers suggested to
him what the problem was, maybe he didnt want to pay for
the needed parts... I dont know, and neither do you...

Your
advice was BAD because you suggested that he do it himself.

Mark, you didnt read the guys original post worth a hoot
and you didnt read my answer either!!

I NEVER SUGGESTED HE DO IT HIMSELF!!!
I just diagnosed the problem correctly....!!!

Luckily, he
didn't listen to you.

He did thank me for being correct, although I think he had worked
it out with his installers before my posts did him much good...

There were many BAD posts, including yours suggesting the
guy get hostile with the installers...Some posts about the
gear being grounded wrong, even some posts about running
RCA on a different side than the power wires... The GROSSLY
WRONG answers in this simple thread made me laugh....

Your post about DEMANDING satisfaction I dont think that
was neccissary cause I know how much fun it is for me if a
customer ever gets hostile with me...

Why get him into more trouble than he deserves over such a
simple problem???

People always sem to come out of the woodwork with
BAD ADVICE!!!

An installer (when ****ed) can do worse!!!

When it's done in a tactful manner, like the poster apparently did, they end
up doing it right and the customer ends up happy, like the poster apparently
is. Are you saying he did the wrong thing?

Im not bitching at him at all MARK!
IM BITCHIN AT YOU!!!!

Dont try to put it off on the original poster when you
were the one giving advice to start a war over such
a simple problem....

SPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAV NO CLUE WHAT
THE PROBLEM WAS!! YOU JUST WANNA SEE
A FIGHT!!!

OR WORSE!!!

Remind me not to go to your shop.

I will remind you the second you come through my front door
IF YOU COME IN HERE WITH A BAD ATTITUDE!!

I treat my customers with respect and I expect them to
do likewise.... In the 30 years I have been installing I can
count the customers that ever hollered at me on my fingers,
there were NOT very many of them at all!! A good
portion of them were scammers anyway trying to get
away with something for nothing (they always holler
when you catch em stealin stuff, like they think IM doing
something wrong for slammin em to the ground to retrieve
my own goods).... ha ha ha

I'm sorry if demanding competence is such an irrational request.

How can you demand competence??
Want em to run out of the store and GET SMART then run
back and do your job while your waiting????

There are dummies in all aspects of service work, installers,
plumbers, electricians, you name it... To DEMAND them to
BE COMPETENT is kind of a waste of time... IMO....

I just look for the one that I think can do the work properly
and I dont DEMAND anything out of anyone.....

In EVERY
other business there is (except for maybe the government), a customer should
always expect the work they pay for to be done.

OK, but in a craft that requires a skill thats sometimes hard to DEMAND
something they cannot give you..

Forinstance....
You want some fiberglas work done, and the installer spends
quite sometime doing the best he can, but when its all done the
fit and finish is not perfect to your likeing (and NOTHING is
ever perfectly perfect!) You bitch and he just cant do any better!!
What do you want him to do run out and take a course on
fiberglassing so he can imporve his skills..??

Or in this case, alot of installers are not too sharp on noise problems!
You want em to just blindly try everything in hopes of eventually
either wearing out your gear or getting it right?? They cant be
blamed for not knowing everything!! Even I dont know everything!!
NO installer is perfect for all jobs!!
DEMANDING THEY IMPROVE is STUPID!!!

If they can do it fine, if they cant do it go elsewhere!

When they don't get it
done, then by definition they've been ripped off.

You dont know the circumstances, I dont think you can judge.

This guy was ripped off
until he went back to them and requested that they fix their mistake.

They made no mistake...
He went back and did what they suggested and for an
extra $19 they fixed the problem....

Clearly I was being facetious when I said "go break something".

Fine, but EVERYONE was telling the guy he GOT SCREWED
and he should go back and start breakin faces!!!

Its just not that big a problem!!!

Not true from an installers point of view, spacially of the customer
supplied
the amp, or if there is a factory radio to blame it on....

Of course it's true.

No, if you had read the original post they suggested a fix
but we dont know why the customer refused it.... Maybe it was
closing time, maybe the customer didnt wanna spend another
$19, maybe they were pushin a new headunit on him, WE
DONT KNOW!!

They ended up doing it right in the long run.

NO!
They ended up doing something ELSE...
Hookig it up an entirely different way with a different part!

So
there was obviously something thewy could have done.

Read the original post!
They did suggest it would need tobe hooked up with RCA
which could have meant a hi/lo

Giving the car back
with alternator whine is as ridiculous as giving it back with the door
panels still not on the car. In either case, it's incomplete!

In my opinion, your wrong!
A car is complete when the customer says its complete!!
Obviously there was an exchange between the customer and the
installers and we dont know why he left with the car as it was...
(like I said above)

There are ENDLESS scenarios where a customer might leave
with a car with noise in it... Some customers get us to run the
wires trough the firewall and do everything else himself. Some
customers wanna bring it back for noise on a day they are off,
some customers just get us to hook up power and RCA and
they wanna do the head themselves or any zillions of things....

In this case you dont have enough info to make a good judgement...


And it was installed as per instructions frm the amp manufacturer.
Not all installers know this problem ...

Plus, we dont know if the customer refused paying a little extra
for one method of connection over another method which was
cheaper.....

That's not the case here.

I think it is, re read the original post boy!!

Yeah, I do know plenty about installers.

ha ha ha, I been dealing with installers for 30 years now, I betcha I
know em a little better than you do...

I know that most of them are incompetent.

define incompetent ...
There are 1000s and 1000s or installers in this world with
widely varying skill levels....

Yes, most of them are what I would call beginers, you
might call them incompetent...

There are similar skill differences in any field....

I'm finding that out now that I need work done myself. I
finally found the "best" place in my area to have it done, and it's almost
all wrong.

then why do you call it the best?
I would betcha your KNOW IT ALL ATTITUDE had quite a
bit about how your relationship with the PRO installers developed...

I dont know how many times in the past I had ASSHOLES that
tell me they are electrical engineers or whatever and want to
offer stupid suggestions for simple installs I have done 1000s
of times before... (on thier cars) ... Usually I can sweet
talk em into letting me do my magic.. But not all installers are
that lenient...

One instance I remember and installer physicly pushed the *engineer*
out of the shop door and slammed it down right in his face.... ha ha
Some of these KNOW IT ALLS are a real pain...

I could imagine you being just like that Mark!!
ha ha ha

I too have alternator whine, an intermittent channel (I can see
that there's tension on one of the RCA cables, so it keeps popping out over
bumps), a crappy front and rear speaker installation, a stupid looking
cumbersome amp rack not built according to my request, and loose door panels
and popped grilles. Now I have to live with it for 6 months until I can fix
their mistakes! Yeah, I know how installers work.

Are you suggesting they did this to you on purpose??
(maybe if you had an attitude with em)
Or do you think they worked thier buts off for you but it just
didnt come out the way you had hoped... and they made a couple
of engineering mistakes (like the cable too short) they
need to spend a little more time on...???

Good luck,
dealin with installers is a tough thing to do sometimes....
Im tellin ya that from expereience!!

Eddie Runner

When it's done in a tactful manner, like the poster apparently did, they
end
up doing it right and the customer ends up happy, like the poster
apparently
is. Are you saying he did the wrong thing?

Im not bitching at him at all MARK!
IM BITCHIN AT YOU!!!!

Dont try to put it off on the original poster when you
were the one giving advice to start a war over such
a simple problem....

Give me a break! I was clearly being facetious. Do you honestly think I
meant for him to go to jail over this? Do you honestly think anyone would
take that advice anyway? The point of my response to him was that they
screwed up and they should fix it. I suggested going back, but going back
with ammo. Because if he didn't, they'd most certainly LIE about it, as
they did when he first went back. If I recall, they told him it could only
be fixed by getting a new radio. Turns out he went back with ammo (exactly
as I suggested), and they were willing to change their tune.


I will remind you the second you come through my front door
IF YOU COME IN HERE WITH A BAD ATTITUDE!!

I treat my customers with respect and I expect them to
do likewise.... In the 30 years I have been installing I can
count the customers that ever hollered at me on my fingers,
there were NOT very many of them at all!! A good
portion of them were scammers anyway trying to get
away with something for nothing (they always holler
when you catch em stealin stuff, like they think IM doing
something wrong for slammin em to the ground to retrieve
my own goods).... ha ha ha

Where did I ever suggest going back with a bad attitude??


I'm sorry if demanding competence is such an irrational request.

How can you demand competence??
Want em to run out of the store and GET SMART then run
back and do your job while your waiting????

There are dummies in all aspects of service work, installers,
plumbers, electricians, you name it... To DEMAND them to
BE COMPETENT is kind of a waste of time... IMO....

They were obviously smart enough to fix the problem. That tells me that
they were incompetent by letting the car go out the door the way it was.


In EVERY
other business there is (except for maybe the government), a customer
should
always expect the work they pay for to be done.

OK, but in a craft that requires a skill thats sometimes hard to DEMAND
something they cannot give you..

Forinstance....
You want some fiberglas work done, and the installer spends
quite sometime doing the best he can, but when its all done the
fit and finish is not perfect to your likeing (and NOTHING is
ever perfectly perfect!) You bitch and he just cant do any better!!
What do you want him to do run out and take a course on
fiberglassing so he can imporve his skills..??

It's one thing to be perfect. It's another to have it come out f'd up. If
the installer tried to make kick panels, for instance, and handed the
customer something that looked like a wad of fiberglass, then I'd fully
expect the installer to refund the customer's money. "I can't do the job
you asked, even though I accepted it." This isn't a matter of aesthetics.
This is a matter of function. They gave him back the car squeeling!

When they don't get it
done, then by definition they've been ripped off.

You dont know the circumstances, I dont think you can judge.

You're probably right. But if it's as the poster has stated, then I think
we DO know enough to comment.


This guy was ripped off
until he went back to them and requested that they fix their mistake.

They made no mistake...
He went back and did what they suggested and for an
extra $19 they fixed the problem....

When he initially went back they lied to him. It wasn't until he returned
with a quote from Tweeter that they admitted it could be done. It sounds a
lot to me like they were trying to sell him a head.


Clearly I was being facetious when I said "go break something".

Fine, but EVERYONE was telling the guy he GOT SCREWED
and he should go back and start breakin faces!!!

Its just not that big a problem!!!

It wouldn't be a big problem if they hadn't told him there was no way to fix
it. But that's what they did tell him. That is, until faced with the
Tweeter estimate.


Not true from an installers point of view, spacially of the customer
supplied
the amp, or if there is a factory radio to blame it on....

Of course it's true.

No, if you had read the original post they suggested a fix
but we dont know why the customer refused it.... Maybe it was
closing time, maybe the customer didnt wanna spend another
$19, maybe they were pushin a new headunit on him, WE
DONT KNOW!!

They ended up doing it right in the long run.

NO!
They ended up doing something ELSE...
Hookig it up an entirely different way with a different part!

So
there was obviously something thewy could have done.

Read the original post!
They did suggest it would need tobe hooked up with RCA
which could have meant a hi/lo

I could have sworn he said they recommended a new head unit. I was under
the impression that they didn't tell him about the $19 fix. For $19, I
doubt he would have gone through the trouble of getting an estimate from
another place.


Yeah, I do know plenty about installers.

ha ha ha, I been dealing with installers for 30 years now, I betcha I
know em a little better than you do...

You're hardly in any position to provide an unbiased view without
self-condemnation.


I'm finding that out now that I need work done myself. I
finally found the "best" place in my area to have it done, and it's
almost
all wrong.

then why do you call it the best?

Because all of the others said that it couldn't be done. Or, in two cases,
they said they've never installed in a Cadillac before (that says newbie to
me). And this place was recommended to me. The only place I didn't have
look at my car was a place that wanted to charge $50 just to give me an
estimate.

I would betcha your KNOW IT ALL ATTITUDE had quite a
bit about how your relationship with the PRO installers developed...

No. I didn't say a word to them about anything. I asked them if they could
do a door install, they said they could. Then they asked me to draw a
wiring diagram of how I wanted it, I gave it to them, and that's that. They
asked me how I wanted the amp rack and sub box. I told them where I wanted
the stuff mounted, and that's it. They were friendly, professional, and
willing to do the work. That's more than what I can say for the rest of the
places I went to. The problem, however, is that some of the work was
substandard. If I need box-building done though, I'll go back to them. I
don't want to have to use the saw in the living room.

I dont know how many times in the past I had ASSHOLES that
tell me they are electrical engineers or whatever and want to
offer stupid suggestions for simple installs I have done 1000s
of times before... (on thier cars) ... Usually I can sweet
talk em into letting me do my magic.. But not all installers are
that lenient...

One instance I remember and installer physicly pushed the *engineer*
out of the shop door and slammed it down right in his face.... ha ha
Some of these KNOW IT ALLS are a real pain...

I could imagine you being just like that Mark!!
ha ha ha

Well, then you imagine wrong. I'm a bit more tactful then you'd give me
credit for. In fact, I never gave them any crap about the installation.
I've decided to just bite my tongue and finish the work myself when I can.
The only thing I've asked them to fix is the alternator whine and the loose
RCA, which is simply a matter of loose wires.


I too have alternator whine, an intermittent channel (I can see
that there's tension on one of the RCA cables, so it keeps popping out
over
bumps), a crappy front and rear speaker installation, a stupid looking
cumbersome amp rack not built according to my request, and loose door
panels
and popped grilles. Now I have to live with it for 6 months until I can
fix
their mistakes! Yeah, I know how installers work.

Are you suggesting they did this to you on purpose??

No, I'm suggesting that they're not very good at their jobs. That goes for
95% of the shops out there. As I said, I know how installers work.

(maybe if you had an attitude with em)
Or do you think they worked thier buts off for you but it just
didnt come out the way you had hoped... and they made a couple
of engineering mistakes (like the cable too short) they
need to spend a little more time on...???

Good luck,
dealin with installers is a tough thing to do sometimes....
Im tellin ya that from expereience!!

Yeah, no kidding. They're as bad as car mechanics. Half of the things that
either of them get away with would not be gotten away with in other
industries.

Mark Zarella wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that they're not very good at their jobs. That goes for
95% of the shops out there. As I said, I know how installers work.

ha ha ha
that makes me laugh Mark...
I betcha you dont know as much about installers as you think you do

Mark Zarella wrote:


Where did I ever suggest going back with a bad attitude??

I believe it was around the time where you said
GO BACK AND DEMAND THAT THEY FIX IT....

to me that seems like tis a little extreem for such an easy fix.

No, I'm suggesting that they're not very good at their jobs. That goes
for
95% of the shops out there. As I said, I know how installers work.

ha ha ha
that makes me laugh Mark...
I betcha you dont know as much about installers as you think you do

I betcha you have a warped view of reality because you're a member of the
profession I'm criticizing. Gotta stick up for your own, huh?

Mark Zarella wrote:

They gave him back the car squeeling!

All installers have done that..
You dont know the whole story, there is no reason
to get all excited about it....

No wonder no one wants to work on your car,
your a fkin hothead!!

Eddie

Mark Zarella wrote:

You're probably right. But if it's as the poster has stated, then I think
we DO know enough to comment.


But you didnt even read his post thouroghly!!!

Where did I ever suggest going back with a bad attitude??

I believe it was around the time where you said
GO BACK AND DEMAND THAT THEY FIX IT....

to me that seems like tis a little extreem for such an easy fix.

Well, it worked, didn't it? Are you suggesting that he should have just
forgotten about it and lived with the problem? Or should he have gone
somewhere else to have it finished?

Mark Zarella wrote:

Because all of the others said that it couldn't be done.

Some of the big chain stores dont work on certain types
of cars if there are no pop in kits and harnesses.. there
are some Caddies that suck....

Or, in two cases,
they said they've never installed in a Cadillac before (that says newbie to
me).

I have never installed in MANY cars, but thats not an indication of a
Newbie, specialy when I have done 10s of thousands of other types
of cars....

But I wouldnt call em name, I would just look for the guy that has
done a car like yours a few times in the past..

And this place was recommended to me. The only place I didn't have
look at my car was a place that wanted to charge $50 just to give me an
estimate.

If they can do that they are probably a really good place....

Eddie