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Serge Auckland Serge Auckland is offline
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"JANA" wrote in message
...
If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it,
the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker.

If the CFL is connected to a switch that is electronic, the small leakage
of
the electronics will cause the CFL to flicker or in some cases to not
turn
off.

Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers and many of the
electronic timers. This is a big inconvenience for many people.

When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot of problems with
these new types of lamps. The biggest one will be the pollution from
their
disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types of materials that
are
very harmful for the environment. There is also the electronics circuit
board, which contain components that have the same recycling problem as
used
in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when they are
eventually
put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up in the land fills.
They are going to be a very big problem compared to the simple light bulb
that was made of simple glass and metals.

Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable. There are almost
no
materials in these that are bad for the environment. Most CFL's materials
are not recyclable, and their materials are very polluting.

It looks very strong that the government is pushing the CFL's to save
some
electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only answer that is
logical. There are NO green house gasses from using regular light bulbs.
When more electricity is sold to industry, the pollution problems from
its
generation will actually increase, unless the generation is from water
power, or nuclear power.

--

JANA
_____



These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are squeaking like
little lost mice in the dark ...

The general public are not told - and would not understand anyway - the
wider implications of these knee-jerk government interventions in our
lives. All too often, they are poorly thought through, and are dreamed up
as a response to the latest bit of pseudo science to hit the news stands.
At the moment, anything with the words 'green' or 'eco' or 'environment'
or 'global warming' are fair game for this sort of nonsense, and to add to
its 'validity' in the public's eyes, they've already started inventing new
bits of techno-babble like 'carbon footprint' and 'carbon offsetting' to
justify what amounts to little more than opinions by a vociferous band of
scientists getting paid large amounts of money and credibility ratings, to
promote the government line. As you say, these CFLs are just trading one
form of alleged pollution, for another definite one ...

Arfa

Arfa

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole
principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of
the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and
consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise.
Putting in a low-energy lamp mean that there is less heat being put into the
room, and consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally. The only
way that Low Energy lighting makes a positive difference is if people change
their lamps when they stop using external heating. As in Northern Europe we
usually have to have our heating on for at least 7 months of the year,
typically 8 months, low energy lighting doesn't make a lot of sense. Also,
how much energy does it take to make a low-energy lamp compared with a
conventional one? When this is factored in, together with the extra energy
required to dispose of it safely, I doubt very much whether low-energy
lighting helps at all.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the whole
principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much of
the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room, and
consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or otherwise.


That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.

The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than other
heat sources (often by a large amount).

No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting.

Graham

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David[_3_] David[_3_] is offline
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Eeyore"

wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of
disposing of old CFLs, I question the
whole
principle of Low Energy lighting. If
you have a conventional bulb, much of
the energy output is in the form of
heat, which will help heat the room,
and
consequently will reduce the need for
other heating, central or otherwise.


That's sort of fine if you want extra
heat. Often as not you don't.

The other downside of your idea is
that electricity is more costly than
other
heat sources (often by a large
amount).

No, that's no excuse for low
efficiency lighting.

Graham


While I generally agree with your
comment above, there is still a lot of
hype on this topic because people (an
especially politicians) fail to consider
the total energy equation. This is
especially true here in the U.S. where
ethanol is a big topic. The public does
not realize that the savings are
relatively small. The BTU content/unit
volume is about 70% of gasoline (lower
miles/gallon), it takes a lot of energy
to make it (fertilizer, fuel for
planting, cultivating, harvesting,
distilling), the diversion of corn to
ethanol is driving up prices for animal
feed and therefore milk and meat, and if
all corn was turned into ethanol you may
divert 3% of the total energy use in
this country. If it was not subsidized
by the taxpayers, no one would use it.
The 3% number is higher if you only
consider the energy from oil, but we are
looking for solutions for the CO2
problem and you have to count all fossil
fuels including natural gas and coal.
Where are we going to get the holy grail
of hydrogen for our cars? Yes, it takes
energy to create it. Solar cells for
home use are another myth. It takes more
energy to produce the solar panels,
batteries, and all of the auxiliary
equipment than the system will ever
generate. Large scale applications in
areas with high solar illumination have
a much better equation. I could go on,
but you get the idea.

The switch to more efficient lighting is
a good conversation measure, but the
energy production area is where the hype
sets in. In general energy use is
directly proportional to population and
standard of living. The best way to save
energy to reduce one or both of those.
Alternatively we could create the
necessary energy form nuclear power
which has essentially zero carbon
emissions.

David

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



David wrote:

While I generally agree with your
comment above, there is still a lot of
hype on this topic because people (an
especially politicians) fail to consider
the total energy equation. This is
especially true here in the U.S. where
ethanol is a big topic. The public does
not realize that the savings are
relatively small. The BTU content/unit
volume is about 70% of gasoline (lower
miles/gallon), it takes a lot of energy
to make it (fertilizer, fuel for
planting, cultivating, harvesting,
distilling), the diversion of corn to
ethanol is driving up prices for animal
feed and therefore milk and meat, and if
all corn was turned into ethanol you may
divert 3% of the total energy use in
this country.


The idea of making ethanol fuel from corn is unique to the USA. I hear ADM
regularly named as the culprit here.

Far better to use feedstock that doesn't require intensive agriculture.

Is your newsreader set to a line length of about 30 chars or so btw ?

Graham

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Serge Auckland Serge Auckland is offline
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the
whole
principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb, much
of
the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room,
and
consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.


That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.


If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.

The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly than
other
heat sources (often by a large amount).


Agreed , but cost isn't part of my argument, energy usage is. The end to end
energy costs of low energy lighting, that is, the energy to make them, use
them and dispose of them compared with conventional filament lighting isn't
at all clear. I have not seen any such figures published, only for the
energy consumption in use, which is clearly lower, but again, the energy
re-use as heat doesn't seem to be taken into account in any calculation I've
seen..

No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting.

Graham

It's not an excuse, but to me the case isn't completely made. In my own
home, any light that is on for more than an hour a day is a low energy
light, but that's more an act of faith on my part rather than a soundly
calculated decision.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com




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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Eeyore wrote in
:



Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question
the whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a
conventional bulb, much of the energy output is in the form of heat,
which will help heat the room, and consequently will reduce the need
for other heating, central or otherwise.


That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.

The other downside of your idea is that electricity is more costly
than other heat sources (often by a large amount).

No, that's no excuse for low efficiency lighting.


It wasn't an excuse, it was a reason, and a good one, there was more to his
point than you quoted. Most times light is used, heat is also wanted. Where
it isn't, you use a light source that doesn't add heat, and there are
several choices. LED's in outdoor and tunnel and other places where people
don't need to spend time keeping warm, or any of the other types already in
use, but that's not where people spend most of their time.

The current availability of CFL's is no excuse to risk vast pollution and
ebergy use in manufacture for all the general domestic uses that also need
heat, and this is true before you begin to consider all the dimmers that
must be replaced and thrown away.

If you're looking for excuses, at least look in the right place. Trying to
force an end to the incandescent lamp to satify a political expedient is
not engineering, but an excuse. No matter how people heat their homes, the
important thing is not to let it all out of the roofs, doors and windows,
it's less important where it comes from.
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

I think our polititions are afraid to tell the American public how
fast/serious the worlds energy is being depleated. The mercury issue can be
solved as suerage is now. This could be fixed overnight.
Almost all of the CFLs will be made in Asia. Not many are made in the US
now. Asia competes with Europe. The US is not in the running. The best CFL
is now Philips.
Ray


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Ray King wrote:

I think our polititions are afraid to tell the American public how
fast/serious the worlds energy is being depleated.


How about you tell me ?

I'm all ears.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional bulb,

much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room,


and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.


That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.


If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat (or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.


Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional
bulb,

much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the
room,


and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.

That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.


If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat
(or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.


Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to
warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.


Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-)




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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional
bulb,

much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the
room,


and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.

That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.


If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat
(or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.


Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to
warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.

Graham

I'm not so sure about that. Go to downtown Vegas and walk under the entrance
awnings of some of the 'legacy' casinos that still have incandescent
lighting rather than LEDs, and then tell me that it doesn't feel like having
an electric fire a few feet over your head ...

Arfa


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question
the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional
bulb,
much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the
room,

and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.

That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.

If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat
(or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.


Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all
to warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.


Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-)


What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ? It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}

Arfa


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Arfa Daily wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question
the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional
bulb,
much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat the
room,

and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central or
otherwise.

That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.

If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room thermostat
(or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.

Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all
to warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.


Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-)



What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ?


What vacuum ?


It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}


Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Serge Auckland wrote:

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I question
the
whole principle of Low Energy lighting. If you have a conventional
bulb,
much
of the energy output is in the form of heat, which will help heat
the
room,

and consequently will reduce the need for other heating, central
or
otherwise.

That's sort of fine if you want extra heat. Often as not you don't.

If the central heating is on, then you are, by definition, needing
extra
heat. The heat output from lighting will mean that the room
thermostat
(or
radiator valves) will turn off that bit sooner.

Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod
all
to warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.

Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :-)



What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs
that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ?


What vacuum ?


It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from
the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat
from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}


Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...

Arfa


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Half a Brain Daily"


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use,



** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".


whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few
minutes use ...



** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they get
damn hot.



....... Phil





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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:


Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the

vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not
to? d;~}

Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.



Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...


What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a
non-reactive gas mixture.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Half a Brain Daily"


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use,



** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".


whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a
few minutes use ...



** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they
get damn hot.



...... Phil



Ok, I'll buy that.

Arfa


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:


Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate
across the

vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems
not
to? d;~}

Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.



Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's
envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...


What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a
non-reactive gas mixture.

Graham


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa


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Lostgallifreyan Lostgallifreyan is offline
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Spehro Pefhany wrote in
:

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html


That is such a good read I've seen bits of postings by him in the
LaserFAQ, but I never followed up enough to know how much good stuff he
wrote.
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:19:52 GMT, the renowned Eeyore
wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:


Why does the heat from the anode of a power tube readily radiate across the

vacuum, but the heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not
to? d;~}

Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.



Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...


What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a
non-reactive gas mixture.

Graham


Many high voltage/low power bulbs are vacuum, IIRC. Don Klipstein says
break-even is 6-10W/cm of filament.

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

"Serge Auckland" wrote in
message
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"JANA" wrote in message
...
If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a
night light in it, the current pass of the night light
will cause the CFL to flicker.


Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. Right now, they are a moving target as
the designs of their electronics packages becomes more sophisticated and
purpose-driven.

Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers
and many of the electronic timers. This is a big
inconvenience for many people.


Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a
wide variety of applications.

When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot
of problems with these new types of lamps. The biggest
one will be the pollution from their
disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types
of materials that are
very harmful for the environment. There is also the
electronics circuit board, which contain components
that have the same recycling problem as used
in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when
they are eventually
put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up
in the land fills. They are going to be a very big
problem compared to the simple light bulb that was made
of simple glass and metals.


True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury.
However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.


Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable.
There are almost no
materials in these that are bad for the environment.
Most CFL's materials are not recyclable, and their
materials are very polluting.


They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.

It looks very strong that the government is pushing the
CFL's to save some
electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only
answer that is logical. There are NO green house gasses
from using regular light bulbs. When more electricity
is sold to industry, the pollution problems from its
generation will actually increase, unless the
generation is from water power, or nuclear power.


This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they
need. They don't buy power for the fun of it.

These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are
squeaking like little lost mice in the dark ...


Mixed bag.

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I
question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting.


In the summer, less heat means less need for air conditioning. In the
winter, less heat from electricity for lighting may have to be offset to
keep the rooms at the same temperature, but space heating often comes from
more efficient sources. Electricity generation has about 70% waste back at
the generating plant, plus significant losses due to transmission and
distribution. Natural gas doesn't have the 70% conversion cost, but it does
have some losses in transmission and distribution.

If
you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output
is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room,
and consequently will reduce the need for other heating,
central or otherwise.


Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally
comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.

Putting in a low-energy lamp mean
that there is less heat being put into the room, and
consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally.


Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe
90% of the US in the summer.



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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Arny Krueger"

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same.


** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.


Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in
a wide variety of applications.



** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.


True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the
mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by
20:1.



** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.


They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.



** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy.


Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating
generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.



** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.


Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in
maybe 90% of the US in the summer.



** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little extra heat is
mostly welcome.

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs
to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use
compulsory.

There are serious hazards risks in so doing - particularly home fires
which are notoriously fatal.

Bad idea, dreamt up by ego tripping, greenie ****wits.



......... Phil


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Phil Allison wrote:

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.


That'll make using less energy easy then.

Is there a lot of coal generated electricity and if so is the coal of local
origin ?

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that
the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially
cold in use,


Maybe a really low-wattage bulb. But at 50 watts and up, you won't
comfortably unscrew a hot bulb with your bare fingers.

whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin
off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...
Arfa



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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

"Phil Allison" wrote:

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be
useful in a wide variety of applications.


** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.


I've so far only seen the 3-way variety. Not the ones dimmable by triac
(the normal infinitetly variable dimmers we are used to, that only work
with incandescent bulbs).

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the
mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast
incadescents by 20:1.


** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.


Most folks? I would suspect infant mortality if the fluorescent has
anywhere close to as short a life as an incandescent. Mine have lasted
for years and years in every case.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating
generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.


** More example selecting.


Well, heating a room, in summer, even at night, is not generally a good
thing. And it's certainly true that electic resistive heat is not very
efficient. So on both counts, the heat from incadescent bulbs is hardly
a "feature."

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing
bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2
production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL
use compulsory.


So far, compulsory is only in Australia. But I'd say that light bulbs
constitute a large load, especially in homes that use gas for their
furnace and kitchen. In such homes, only heavy appliances or hair dryers
require more than 100 watts or so, yet for light bulbs, that's common.
And there are many light bulbs.

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load. Makes a lot more sense to clamp down on that
load, than to get all compulsive about DTV set-top boxes, as the EU has
done.

Bert



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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Arfa Daily wrote:

...snip...


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa


"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Ron Capik wrote in
:

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.


Hell yes, and as we know that nature (allegedly) abhors a vaccuum, that
someone will really have to press the stuff in there hard.
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"


True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the
mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents
by 20:1.


** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.


Most folks?



** Yes.

( snip dumb remark)


Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing
bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use
compulsory.


So far, compulsory is only in Australia.



** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.

Same goes for Australia, New Zealand and some US states.


But I'd say that light bulbs constitute a large load,



** Domestic use light bulbs do not.


At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load.



** The major loads in a home are water heaters, fridges, stoves and air
conditioners.

Indoor light bulbs that are only used at night and only when needed are a
small load.




....... Phil



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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

...snip...


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa


"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--


It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

...snip...


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa


"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--


It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa


Ahh, that so reminds me of the winning definition of "politically correct."
"" Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
turd by the clean end.""

So do take care as to what end of the vacuum you fill with. G


Later...

Ron Capik
--




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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Phil Allison wrote:

"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"


There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use
compulsory.


So far, compulsory is only in Australia.


** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.


There is as yet no Directive.

I've seem some sensible moves towards banning just 'inefficient' incandescents
i.e standard tungsten filament types. It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are
attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip,
chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Karl Uppiano"
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.



** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the
RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody
billions of CFLs in private homes !!

Insane.



......... Phil




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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb



Phil Allison wrote:

"Karl Uppiano"
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.


More like 4mg.

Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.

Graham

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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Karl Uppiano"
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.



** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.


What is the mercury used for?

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using
the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like
bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !!


If it weren't for the disastrous unintended consequences, most legislation
would have no effect at all.

Insane.


Perhaps, but they'll think they made a difference when solar cycle begins to
decline again, and the planet starts to cool off again.




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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Karl Uppiano"
"Phil Allison"

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.



** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.


What is the mercury used for?



** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.



........ Phil



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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Karl Uppiano"
"Phil Allison"

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit
of metal in it.


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.


What is the mercury used for?



** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.


You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor light".
Asshole.


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Karl Up Himself ****wit Piano"


CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit
of metal in it.


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to
be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

What is the mercury used for?



** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.


You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor
light".



** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again.

**** OFF !!

Asshole.



......... Phil


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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb

Ron Capik wrote:
"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G


As long as you don't say something vacuous...

--
We can't possibly imprison 300 million Americans for not paying their
taxes, so let's grant all of them amnesty NOW!
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Default Strange problem with low energy light bulb


"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Karl Up Himself ****wit Piano"


CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit
of metal in it.


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to
be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

What is the mercury used for?


** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.


You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor
light".



** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again.

**** OFF !!

Asshole.


Does anybody know what the hell set this guy off? I asked a simple question,
not really prepared for an ad-hominem attack. I figured I wasn't the only
person on these NG that might benefit from what I thought was probably a
simple answer.

I did look it up, and after wading through article after article repeating
the exact same environmentalist hand-wringing about how toxic this naturally
occurring metal is, I finally found an explanation of its role in
fluorescent lamps:

Fluorescent lamps *are* mercury vapor lamps, although the vapor pressure in
fluorescents is different from the bright blue-white lamps traditionally
called "mercury vapor lamps". The electric arc in the tube excites the
electrons in the mercury vapor atoms so that when they drop back to their
base level, they emit photons, primarily in the ultraviolet energy range,
which strike the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube, exciting the
electrons in the phosphor atoms so that when they drop back to their base
level, they emit visible photons. Any number of gases could be used inside
the tube, but mercury has been used traditionally in fluorescent lamps. Some
newer lamps use less mercury, in favor of alternative elements. Of course
there are trade-offs, such as cost and performance.

My original question about mercury basically had to do with current
practices: Whether it was, in fact, the gas of choice for CFLs. I thought it
might be possible that it had some other use that I was not aware of. I
guess I crossed some invisible line by asking about it.


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