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  #81   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I have nothing to sell. If you or anyone else agrees or disagrees, I couldn't
care less. Anyone that is unsure of what to think of this topic can simply
walk into any audio store and crank up a few amps using the same speakers and
form their own opinion. You have people like soundgeek doing a song and dance
about all amps sounding the same as long as they are not clipped, but none of
these people seem to mention that clipping for the most part especially when
powering subs is not avoidable and even more so with cheaper over-rated amps.
If you check out any of the posts in here regarding matching amps to subs,
you'll see that not one of these people in question recommend amps that are
powerful enough to get full performance out of a given sub and totally avoid
any chance of clipping. Even if what they believe to be true was true, you
should expect to hear a difference within amps unless you shell out enough
money for an amp that is powerful enough not to be driven into clipping at any
point. None of this foolishness applies to any average car audio system or any
amp and sub recommendation that these people make.



In article , "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to make
your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.


Howdy,

Yes, he's made you look foolish each and every time. Why are you arguing
with him??? He knows 10 times more about car audio than you!!! WTF??
Trust me, as an outside observer who's just been reading along...you're
never going to win. And I get the feeling that if you did, he would admit
it. But you clearly know just enough about what you're talking about to get
yourself in trouble. Kind of like a brown belt that thinks he knows karate
until he goes out and gets in a fight and gets his ass kicked. HOWDY,
YOU'RE GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED! You need to recognize this and step down.

Tony


Tony


  #82   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Ivan,

Thanx man. Maybe it is along those lines. Who knows Your response
was 10 times more helpful to me than SoundFag's was.

SoundFag,

I sat and reviewed some of our posts, and I must say, it's hilarious
when a person belittles another because the other person won't agree
with him. That sounds so dumb.

How can you not get it through your head? You keep repeating
that amplifiers operated within their limits sound the same. I've said
over and over that even at low volume, so low that any less power and
the sub wouldn't move, they still sounded different. The phoenix gold
still made me feel the lows, but the Ultimate did not. Now, how can a
volume that low not be within either amp's limits? So you can
understand...from zero watts to max power, that Ultimate never made me
feel the lows like the Tantrum did at a moderate level

I don't give a damn how many people agree with you. Both amps were
within their limits, some times well below, and they Always sounded
different. I don't give a damn about how long you've researched what,
you haven't heard my stereo, therefore, some little man that thinks he
knows everything is not of any relevance as a reference to me. You or
your people at your favorite website have not witnessed anything in my
situation, so you don't know, and you won't know, UNTIL you hear MY
stereo, which will be never.

You come off as so full of yourself. I'm a noob and an idiot all bcuz I
shared my experience with 2 of my amplifiers sounding different, and I
don't agree with you. Car Audio is not my life, and will
never be a main part of my life. Therefore your gloating about how much
research you've done, and how much you know about this topic doesn't
mean Sh1t to me. I just wanted to share my experience with others since
my experience was, and still is, relevant to this topic. Not argue with
some big-headed b1tch about what's going on in my car, and you haven't
even heard my system.

So all you people can sit there and shake your heads when you read my
posts, but I never came here claiming to know about anything but my
experience. SoundFag, you will not change my mind. All these repetative
post of you trying to show how smart you think you are isn't changing
my mind. Give it up.

And to the others on here that had to sit through all this, sorry about
that.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
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  #83   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Thanx man. Maybe it is along those lines. Who knows Your response
was 10 times more helpful to me


I said the same thing several times over. Remember google dumbass? It is all
there. You chose not to listen and then get bent out of shape when I can it
like it is.


I sat and reviewed some of our posts, and I must say, it's hilarious
when a person belittles another because the other person won't agree
with him. That sounds so dumb.


I am just calling it like it is. You are a complete dumbass when it comes to
car audio. Maybe your not with other stuff, but that is irrelevant to the
discussion.


How can you not get it through your head?


Because I actually understand car audio, and beyond that the scientific
principles involved. You do not. You never will.

You keep repeating
that amplifiers operated within their limits sound the same. I've said
over and over that even at low volume, so low that any less power and
the sub wouldn't move, they still sounded different.


And I have said over and over you little "test" is meaningless. For many of the
reasons that I, and others like Ivan, listed. But you refuse to listen, hey,
your loss not mine.

The phoenix gold
still made me feel the lows, but the Ultimate did not. Now, how can a
volume that low not be within either amp's limits?


"Feeling" has nothing to do with SQ dumbass. Do you not understand that?

So you can
understand...from zero watts to max power, that Ultimate never made me
feel the lows like the Tantrum did at a moderate level


So? The other amp did not have the same amount of power as the tantrum. Does
that not make sense to you? The power stamped on the amp or box is meaningless.


I don't give a damn how many people agree with you.


Or the proof of physics and pychoacoustics, which is why you are a complete
dumbass. You ignore all of the facts and continue to believe your obviously
faulty logic.

Both amps were
within their limits, some times well below, and they Always sounded
different.


Because you measured it? And you measured and calibrated the crossover points,
and the power output? I don't think so.

I don't give a damn about how long you've researched what,
you haven't heard my stereo, therefore, some little man that thinks he
knows everything is not of any relevance as a reference to me.


Your stereo does not defy the laws and principles of physics.

You or
your people at your favorite website have not witnessed anything in my
situation, so you don't know, and you won't know, UNTIL you hear MY
stereo, which will be never.


Your hung up on some nonexistant website. You must have poor reading
comprehensions skills like your bud howdy. I do not need to hear your system to
tell that you are an idiot. I don't need to hear it to know that it will still
obey the laws of physics.

I'm a noob and an idiot all bcuz I
shared my experience with 2 of my amplifiers sounding different, and I
don't agree with you.


No, you are an idiot because you have evidence given to you and you refuse to
even look at it. You were an obvious noob in the first post you made. It is not
the fact that you disagree it is the fact that you disagree and offer NOTHING
to back up your point. Your little tests are meaningless, your logic, well you
have presented none.

Therefore your gloating about how much
research you've done, and how much you know about this topic doesn't
mean Sh1t to me


Your loss, you will never learn.
SoundFag, you will not change my mind. All these repetative
post of you trying to show how smart you think you are isn't changing
my mind. Give it up.


You do realize that I post my name at the bottom of every post? But you are too
much of a dumbass to figure out how to quote so you probably cannot read that
much at once either. And I am not going to change your mind, and frankly do not
care, but your still an idiot with idiotic theories and I am going to call you
on them everytime you post.

And to the others on here that had to sit through all this, sorry about
that.


Good. You should apologize for making people read your posts, a virtual waste
of time. But noone has to read if they do not want too.

Les
  #84   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

It seems that people do hear differences between amplifiers, why don't you
and
soundgeek?


Where did we say differently?

You know, after our extensive explanations to you about this, it still
appears that you're not reading our posts. Because every post of yours is a
strawman. So the only logical conclusions that can be made are that a)
you're not reading our posts; b) you're not understanding our posts; c)
you're intentionally setting up strawmen. Which is it?


  #85   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Well the only time he can attribute to one amp sounding different than
the
other is when it is clipped. I have said all along that they sound the

same
when they are not clipped and agreed that do sound different when they

are. And
since his article focuses mostly on different types of distortion it is

fairly
useless to the argument.


If all amps shared the same levels of distortion and x-over distortion,


They do.

and
other factors, you'de be right about the above, but that is not the case.


Name two that don't.




  #86   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Lester, are you still ****ed off because you have to use a spelling checker
before you post now? You are hard at work here trying to belittle this guy
using three different words that very much mean the same thing in slang or
not. From reading your posts, I can tell that you are under educated, and
that's fine by me. But to have a moron call someone else a moron is sort of
ironic.




Your hung up on some nonexistant website. You must have poor reading
comprehensions skills like your bud howdy. I do not need to hear your system to
tell that you are an idiot. I don't need to hear it to know that it will still
obey the laws of physics.

I'm a noob and an idiot all bcuz I
shared my experience with 2 of my amplifiers sounding different, and I
don't agree with you.


No, you are an idiot because you have evidence given to you and you refuse to
even look at it. You were an obvious noob in the first post you made. It is not
the fact that you disagree it is the fact that you disagree and offer NOTHING
to back up your point. Your little tests are meaningless, your logic, well you
have presented none.

Therefore your gloating about how much
research you've done, and how much you know about this topic doesn't
mean Sh1t to me


Your loss, you will never learn.
SoundFag, you will not change my mind. All these repetative
post of you trying to show how smart you think you are isn't changing
my mind. Give it up.


You do realize that I post my name at the bottom of every post? But you are too
much of a dumbass to figure out how to quote so you probably cannot read that
much at once either. And I am not going to change your mind, and frankly do not
care, but your still an idiot with idiotic theories and I am going to call you
on them everytime you post.

And to the others on here that had to sit through all this, sorry about
that.


Good. You should apologize for making people read your posts, a virtual waste
of time. But noone has to read if they do not want too.

Les

  #87   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!


This thread is funny

on one hand you got folks that THINK they hear a difference
between amplifiers

on the other hand you got folks that THINK there is no difference
between amplifiers.

They are BOTH right, and BOTH wrong in some ways I think...
I could argue either side of the fence....
here is why...

Typicly ( but maybe not in this case) most folks prejudge the
sound from different amps based on many things... Advertising,
price, brand name, construction, marketing hype, even the color
of the heatsinks and these things affect how most folks think an
amp sounds... Or even if an amp is supposed to be better most
folks will automaicly think that it does sound better....

To make this hard to get a real handle on, most of these folks
do not actually do an A/B test on the two, they just typicly listen
to one amp in one car and compare it to another amp in a completely
differnt car... Thats NOT really comparing amplifiers, thats comparing
complete systems!!

The speakers may sound different, the subs may sound different, the car
may sound different even the music may be different... Maybe not in
this case, but for the most part, this is how most folks do an amp
comparison which is just NOT a good way to actually compare amps!!

Plus, most of these same folks really dont get the opportunity to
really compare many different amps, the average car audio
enthusiast may not in his entire lifetime get a chance to really
listen to all that many different systems ... 10, 20, 30...???
Where they really get to settle in and listen to thier own music
they are familiar with.....(be honest with yourself)
And which ones of those allow for a good amp comparison??
FEW if ANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many times though, an old amp will come out of a car and a new amp
will replace it, and it is pretty easy to tell the new amp sounds better!
Almost everyone would agree with this statement, it happens everyday!

This is a better comparison ! But still not a perfect comparison...

Its a known fact that the human brain cannot remember differences in
sound sublties for very long at all, so again your brains predjudices
often come into play to color the sound in a way you dont even realize
(but maybe not in this case) ...

And of course the old amp and new amp may not be the same power
which would mean the new amp probably plays louder then the old
amp... Which to most folks (including me) a HUGE difference in how
the amps sound and compare to one another...!!
HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!

Plus, it is known that many amplifiers will intentionally EQ thier sound
with sound filters, and / or bass or treble boosts... You may not even
know its there, but that wold definitely make two amps sound very
different....!!

In the old days when the old Fosgate amps came out
it was rumored they became so popular because they EQed the sound
(like putting a smiley face on an EQ) built into the amps.... I dont know
for a fact that this is true, but in an actuall A/B comparison most folks
might choose those amps over another because of this .....

Do they do this today..??
I dont know, but if I was an amp manufacturer I might consider it!!
It is all about the money you know! ;-)

And on the other hand, some of the folks saying there are no amp
differences are almost right, but some ore very wrong!! And possibly
giving folks the completely wrong idea about things.....

IF and IF is a HUGE word here, one amp is compared to another amp
at EXACTLY the same amplitude at EXACTLY the same frequencies
with both amps playing EXACTLY the same then of course there
will be absolutely no way to tell the difference even in a good A/B
test.....

This will almost NEVER happen i normal everyday life.
Even the famous $10000 amp challenge has a huge set of rules
about setting up the amplifiers before the comparison to minimize
any differences.....


BUT IN THEORY!!!
An amp SHOULD (but maybe isnt) have a perfect frequency response
and in theory that WOULD make any amps sound the same when
not clipped or over driven......


SO you see... its funny to me this arguement is even happening....

On one hand the folks THINK the amps sound different but
probably never had the oportunity to do a real test that has meaning,
most of these folks are probably influenced by predjudice...

BUT, they are also aware that the old amp they had was not
as enjyable as the new amp they have now!!

so they are right AND wrong about many aspects of this arguement

Then back to the other hand.... Some of these folks that are
convinced that all amps sound the same may have some of the
same types of predjudices (based on theory instead) that the
amps sound the same.... Many do not have opportunities
for many real comparisons.....

I have been doing this work for 30 years, and have more audio
test equipment than many folks could imagine and even I have
only rarely set up this actuall comparison....

And many of these *sound the same* folks often seem to forget
that even though ANY amp can be put in a situation where it
sounds like ANY other amp... This is only one condition, it is
NOT real life amplifier use!! And these folks that forget this
run around spouting that ALL AMPS SOUND THE SAME
NO MATTER WHAT as if it were some kind of gospell truth!
They sometimes forget
to say IF the amps are set up and IF the amps have equal
freuancy respons and IF the amps ...blah blah blah

and this causes more confusion for folks in this hobby than the
folks that say amps sound different!! Maybe because the
*sound the same* folks might be a little more scientific in nature
(even though sometimes misguided)...??
I dont know...

But either way, both sides on this arguement have some right
and have some wrong....... IMO...

Eddie Runner
TeamROCS member #001
http://ww.teamrocs.com/forums/











  #88   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

none of
these people seem to mention that clipping for the most part especially

when
powering subs is not avoidable


Yes it is.


  #89   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


If all amps shared the same levels of distortion and x-over distortion,

and
other factors, you'de be right about the above, but that is not the case.



If the distortion is below the level of audibility then it can't change the
sound of the amp, can it?


It shows that people do hear a difference in amps even under normal use.
That's my point.



If "under use" means "driving your amp into clipping on a constant basis"
then yes, you will hear a difference.



Paul Vina



  #90   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

The purpose of the discussion is to dispell the common myth that you need
to
buy a "high end" amplifier for good sound.


I understand all that, and I'm not saying you're wrong (in fact, I've

agreed
with you). I'm simply saying that there's no convincing some people, even

when
you have truth on your side. Will is obviously unwilling to make the leap

from
perception to reality, and realizing that would end the debate and the

waste of
bandwidth.


You'd be surprised. I've seen people in here on the losing side of an
argument who refuse to admit that they're wrong, and a couple months later
when the subject is brought up again they start arguing on the "right" side.
Some people are too stubborn to admit when they're wrong. And they
especially won't admit it if you take the less tactful approach that Les
often takes.




  #91   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

None of this foolishness applies to any average car audio system or any
amp and sub recommendation that these people make.



I don't believe Mark or Les ever said whether it applies or not. Only that
unless you're clipping the amp, they all sound the same. The BOTH also
agreed that clipped amps do sound different from one another.


Paul Vina


  #92   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eddie's opinion! Amps, more argument!

Its a known fact that the human brain cannot remember differences in
sound sublties for very long at all, so again your brains predjudices
often come into play to color the sound in a way you dont even realize
(but maybe not in this case) ...


The brain ALWAYS "colors" the sound. That's its job. Contrary to popular
belief, the human brain is NOT a sound detector. It's not interested in
revealing everything about the sound. Instead, the human brain's job is to
FILTER the external stimulus and provide the information in a simple manner
so that the brain's limited processing capabilities will allow the human to
extract the information deemed important and process it in a manner
consistent with human function. As such, even though the mechanical
transduction process in the ear contains most of the information that the
loudspeaker provides, the neural representation of the sound is filtered
even at the earliest stages of auditory processing. By the time the neural
signal even reaches the brain, a considerable portion of the sound
information has already been filtered out. This, along with more central
levels of processing, is the basis for finite psychophysical thresholds.
This is why we cannot perceive every aspect of the sound presented to us.
And as you astutely point out in the remainder of your post, being able to
provide real-world measures of quality is dramatically colored by the fact
that we're not oscilloscopes. We're humans.

IF and IF is a HUGE word here, one amp is compared to another amp
at EXACTLY the same amplitude at EXACTLY the same frequencies
with both amps playing EXACTLY the same then of course there
will be absolutely no way to tell the difference even in a good A/B
test.....


You say "of course" here, but many people, including Howdy and Pug do not
agree with this notion.


  #93   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
none of
these people seem to mention that clipping for the most part especially

when
powering subs is not avoidable


Yes it is.


  #94   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.

Yes it is and yes it is.


  #95   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Then why give people faults assumptions, since most people do and will clip
their amplifiers and should expect to hear a difference between amplifiers
under these conditions even by Lester's and Mark's own theories. I could see
their point as being valid if clipping was abnormal or only occurred under
extreme conditions, which it does not. If fact by saying this, they are
saying that cheaper over-rated amplifiers will not sound the same as high end
amplifiers would, since high end amplifiers tend to preformed better when
being clipped and/or are less likely to clip at the same levels since
under-rated amplifiers would have more headroom. Making this argument totally
pointless to the average consumer, since none of these people have yet
recommend any amplifier and subwoofer setups that would totally avoid clipping
and yet yield enough power for optimum speaker performance.




In article 8hSUb.187516$5V2.971095@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
None of this foolishness applies to any average car audio system or any
amp and sub recommendation that these people make.



I don't believe Mark or Les ever said whether it applies or not. Only that
unless you're clipping the amp, they all sound the same. The BOTH also
agreed that clipped amps do sound different from one another.


Paul Vina




  #96   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Then why give people faults assumptions, since most people do and will
clip
their amplifiers and should expect to hear a difference between amplifiers
under these conditions even by Lester's and Mark's own theories. I could

see
their point as being valid if clipping was abnormal or only occurred under
extreme conditions, which it does not. If fact by saying this, they are
saying that cheaper over-rated amplifiers will not sound the same as high

end
amplifiers would, since high end amplifiers tend to preformed better when
being clipped and/or are less likely to clip at the same levels since
under-rated amplifiers would have more headroom. Making this argument

totally
pointless to the average consumer, since none of these people have yet
recommend any amplifier and subwoofer setups that would totally avoid

clipping
and yet yield enough power for optimum speaker performance.


Actually, you're not quite grasping the point that Les and I have been
making.

The purpose is not a trivial one. Rather, it's in response to the COMMON
notion that there are significant differences in the signals reproduced by
amplifiers by virtue of their name alone. Well, it's important to dispel
this myth because this factor influences many buyers' decisions. In fact,
it even makes people buy the wrong amp sometimes, or spend considerably more
money for no good reason. I've seen too many instances where someone will
cast aside buying a 125x2 Orion, with all the crossover controls they'd want
and at a great price, and instead buy a 30x2 Zapco because it "sounds
better".


  #97   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Bull****


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.


Yes it is and yes it is.


  #98   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I've seen people in here on the losing side of an
argument who refuse to admit that they're wrong, and a couple months later
when the subject is brought up again they start arguing on the "right" side.


That doesn't surprise me, some people are stubborn idiots. I can be stubborn to
when I think I'm right, but I usually try to bring facts to the party when I'm
arguing for something.
  #99   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


LOL just keeping my replies as short as yours.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.


Yes it is and yes it is.


  #100   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.

It's not cost effective nor logical to buy an amp that's large enough to power
subs without clipping? Are you serious? That's the most ill-formed opinion I've
heard in a long, long time.


  #101   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

since most people do and will clip
their amplifiers


How do you know that "most people" will do this? What percentage of car audio
installs in this country have you seen? Do you have facts and stats to back
this claim up? It's really not hard to find an ample amp to power any type of
speaker, nor is it neccesarily expensive. Numerous companies make inexpensive
amps that'll do the job just fine. It's one thing to sit there and argue over
things your brain "perceives" as being true, but to sit back and make blatantly
false claims like you have in your last few posts is just stupidity at work.
  #102   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I can see that. I always stood by the idea of more power the better. I just
think that people can get the wrong idea with this topic and think that a
low end amp is just as good as a high end amp in the same class. very
misleading.




The purpose is not a trivial one. Rather, it's in response to the COMMON
notion that there are significant differences in the signals reproduced by
amplifiers by virtue of their name alone. Well, it's important to dispel
this myth because this factor influences many buyers' decisions. In fact,
it even makes people buy the wrong amp sometimes, or spend considerably more
money for no good reason. I've seen too many instances where someone will
cast aside buying a 125x2 Orion, with all the crossover controls they'd want
and at a great price, and instead buy a 30x2 Zapco because it "sounds
better".


  #103   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Um...well, I guess I was being illogical and wasteful when I bought my sub
amp for under $200.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Bull****


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.


Yes it is and yes it is.




  #104   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I think if people dropped the "high end"/"low end" crap, then things would
become a lot clearer to them. I think the key thing for them to realize is
that manufacturer ratings are not uniform, and that always needs to be taken
into account. I think, however, that too often they draw the wrong
conclusions from that.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I can see that. I always stood by the idea of more power the better. I

just
think that people can get the wrong idea with this topic and think that a
low end amp is just as good as a high end amp in the same class. very
misleading.




The purpose is not a trivial one. Rather, it's in response to the COMMON
notion that there are significant differences in the signals reproduced

by
amplifiers by virtue of their name alone. Well, it's important to dispel
this myth because this factor influences many buyers' decisions. In

fact,
it even makes people buy the wrong amp sometimes, or spend considerably

more
money for no good reason. I've seen too many instances where someone

will
cast aside buying a 125x2 Orion, with all the crossover controls they'd

want
and at a great price, and instead buy a 30x2 Zapco because it "sounds
better".




  #105   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

You know, after our extensive explanations to you about this, it still
appears that you're not reading our posts. Because every post of yours is a
strawman. So the only logical conclusions that can be made are that a)
you're not reading our posts; b) you're not understanding our posts; c)
you're intentionally setting up strawmen. Which is it?


Mark I think the answer is d) Howdy is just a dumbass.

I CAN hear differnces in amplifiers, but I understand what to attribute those
differences too, and is is NOT SQ.
Answer me this Howdy; How can something sound better than the other when all of
the factors that make up SQ are undetectable to your ear? Come on, I dare you
to answer that. But I know you won't because you don't know. You whole argument
is based on something you cannot even understand yourself!

Les



  #106   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I have nothing to sell. If you or anyone else agrees or disagrees, I couldn't

care less. Anyone that is unsure of what to think of this topic can simply
walk into any audio store and crank up a few amps using the same speakers and

form their own opinion.


How assinine of a statement is that. That is exactly one of the points I am
trying to make!!! Howdy, what part of there are more important things to
consider when purchasing an amp that SQ? The customer that walks in without
knowing will just go in and get which one "sounds better" but what they will
fail to realize is that they could probably have gotten more amp for less
money!!!!

You have people like soundgeek doing a song and dance
about all amps sounding the same as long as they are not clipped, but none of

these people seem to mention that clipping for the most part especially when
powering subs is not avoidable and even more so with cheaper over-rated amps.


Like hell it is not avoidable!! Not 100% of the time but it is enough of the
times to make your argument pointless. You are doing nothing but hurting the
average listener, filling thier heads that they have to buy an expensive amp to
get good SQ, it is simply not the case.

None of this foolishness applies to any average car audio system or any
amp and sub recommendation that these people make.


There you go making up your "statistics" again.
Don't lump me into that catergory, I rarely give people specific examples of
amps. Rather I tell them to get a powerful one, more power than they will ever
need.

And this very much applies to the average customer. It dispells the audio myths
surrounding amplifiers so the customer can make informed, educated desicions
instead of buying an amp because it "sounds better". Do you not see that point?
Are you that dumb?

Les

  #107   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.


Yes it is and yes it is.


Bull****



Maybe when you buy overpriced junk because it sounds good. I've got a 5 channel
amp to power my system with plenty of headroom for under $300. Pretty effective
if you ask me.

Les

  #108   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Then why give people faults assumptions, since most people do and will clip
their amplifiers and should expect to hear a difference between amplifiers
under these conditions even by Lester's and Mark's own theories.


Most? The last few installs I have done had plenty of headroom. If they are
really concerned with sound quality then they will be willing to buy the bigger
amp to avoid clipping as much as possible. You keep missing the point. Lets
take your high end amp and clip it, then compare that to a "low end" amp and
give it plenty of power but no clipping. Which one is going to sound better?
The one that is NOT CLIPPED. So it is relevant. Spend the money on more
important things, like power!!! Make sense yet?

I could see
their point as being valid if clipping was abnormal or only occurred under
extreme conditions, which it does not.


Clipping should only occur in abnormal conditions, you should not be clipping
your system regularly, if you are then it is improperly designed.

Making this argument totally
pointless to the average consumer, since none of these people have yet
recommend any amplifier and subwoofer setups that would totally avoid
clipping
and yet yield enough power for optimum speaker performance.


Again with the baseless points.
Ok one more time, I know you slow but her is goes, it is relevent. Here is just
2 of the many reasons, the same 2 I have repeated over and over again.
1) Amplifiers sound the same within thier designed limits, not clipping.
2) Because of that we can now make accurate and knowledgeable amp choices and
realize that there are more important considerations when buying an amp.

Too many people get hung up on that intangible and totally baseless point of
SQ. It is an audio myth, that has never been proven, and defies logic and
science. You know, you have yet to bring any evidence as to why they sound
different. Where is it howdy? Did you leave it at McDonalds after your shift
mopping up the store was done?

Les
  #109   Report Post  
John Atkinson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote in message
...
http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/

You have got to be kidding me right? You are not actually going to try
and use this for a reference.


I'd be interested in hearing what your objection is to this article. The
measured differences bteween the two amplifiers were certainly large enough
that they should have sounded different.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
  #110   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I can see that. I always stood by the idea of more power the better. I just
think that people can get the wrong idea with this topic and think that a
low end amp is just as good as a high end amp in the same class. very
misleading.


People reading this thread will see a couple of things. One is that you have
provided zero evidence to support your claim. You just ramble on without any
backing. They will also see that myself, Mark, and others have offered evidence
to the point, and even without understanding the technical points involved,
have knowledge about what that means to them. Does not seem misleading to me,
why don't you give me a quote in context where you feel I was misleading.

Les


  #111   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

My point was the fact Will isn't going to change his mind, and I didn't
disagree with you, if I had, I would have stated it as such, so don't give
me a preachy response. I'm just sick of seeing threads that don't go
anywhere, it's like trying to beat a dead horse, I'm sure the horse gets the
point, but it isn't going to get up.

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
I hate to break it to you soundfreak, but I don't think will is going to
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters. To him there is a
difference. Don't turn this into a Runner vs. Nousaine post.


I hate to break it to you Luke, but physics doesn't change in Will's car

and
Will will likely never actually know anything about car audio. There are 2
points that I have constantly made.
Point one: Drive an amp within its limits and they sound the same,

assuming you
have a properly functioning amp.
Point two: There are far more important things to consider when purchasing

an
amp.

He percieves a difference and I, and others, pointed out to him that the
difference was not what he attributed it too. But him being a noob he

decided
to challenge it without logic or evidence and well, this is what you get.

I
gave up on Will as ever being knowledgeable around the 3rd post he made,

but
others are still reading this thread and they will see the evidence for
themselves.
Did you even have a point to your post?

Les



  #112   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


What amp is it? Did you buy it new, used or stolen?


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Um...well, I guess I was being illogical and wasteful when I bought my sub
amp for under $200.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Bull****


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.

Yes it is and yes it is.




  #116   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


That I can agree with


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
I think if people dropped the "high end"/"low end" crap, then things would
become a lot clearer to them. I think the key thing for them to realize is
that manufacturer ratings are not uniform, and that always needs to be taken
into account. I think, however, that too often they draw the wrong
conclusions from that.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I can see that. I always stood by the idea of more power the better. I

just
think that people can get the wrong idea with this topic and think that a
low end amp is just as good as a high end amp in the same class. very
misleading.




The purpose is not a trivial one. Rather, it's in response to the COMMON
notion that there are significant differences in the signals reproduced

by
amplifiers by virtue of their name alone. Well, it's important to dispel
this myth because this factor influences many buyers' decisions. In

fact,
it even makes people buy the wrong amp sometimes, or spend considerably

more
money for no good reason. I've seen too many instances where someone

will
cast aside buying a 125x2 Orion, with all the crossover controls they'd

want
and at a great price, and instead buy a 30x2 Zapco because it "sounds
better".




  #117   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

You have got to be kidding me right? You are not actually going to try
and use this for a reference.


I'd be interested in hearing what your objection is to this article. The
measured differences bteween the two amplifiers were certainly large

enough
that they should have sounded different.


The discussion has been about solid-state amplifiers. This was a tube vs.
SS experiment.

In any case, your 2AFC test appears valid. The presence of the
potentiometer for one amplifier but not the other is rather troublesome (I'd
use pots for both amps).

How did you ensure that the amplifiers were operating within their linear
range?

In addition, did you measure the "important" parameters of the amplifier
before or after the test? I didn't see any mention of distortion, noise,
frequency response, etc measurements. This is rather important, because
noise issues, for instance, could have been prevalent and in fact could have
been the sole determining factor for the listeners. The source of noise
would then have to be identified. If the differences for the two amps
tested were indeed significant, then it would have to be determined if the
noise parameters of the amplifiers were typical.

As an aside, in car audio we're less concerned with noise than in home
audio. We're battling all kinds of noise from the getgo. So, even noise
levels that are considered mediocre in the realm of home audio are well
above necessary for us. The noise floor is incredibly high. This of course
is an important consideration when trying to compare the two environments.

As for the results:

Your 64%-38% "difference" vs. "sameness" comparison is essentially worthless
due to what appears to be a bias in the responses in favor of "different".

Your primary group data analysis with the 52% number didn't show any
statistical measure of confidence. Either that, or I overlooked it. Do you
have that data available?


  #118   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

ESX Q1752. New.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

What amp is it? Did you buy it new, used or stolen?


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Um...well, I guess I was being illogical and wasteful when I bought my

sub
amp for under $200.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Bull****


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Let me rephrase that. It's not cost effective nor is it logical.

Yes it is and yes it is.






  #119   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
I have nothing to sell. If you or anyone else agrees or disagrees, I couldn't

care less. Anyone that is unsure of what to think of this topic can simply
walk into any audio store and crank up a few amps using the same speakers and

form their own opinion.


How assinine of a statement is that. That is exactly one of the points I am
trying to make!!! Howdy, what part of there are more important things to
consider when purchasing an amp that SQ? The customer that walks in without
knowing will just go in and get which one "sounds better" but what they will
fail to realize is that they could probably have gotten more amp for less
money!!!!


Yeah if they bought of that was stolen.


You have people like soundgeek doing a song and dance
about all amps sounding the same as long as they are not clipped, but none of

these people seem to mention that clipping for the most part especially when
powering subs is not avoidable and even more so with cheaper over-rated amps.


Like hell it is not avoidable!! Not 100% of the time but it is enough of the
times to make your argument pointless. You are doing nothing but hurting the
average listener, filling thier heads that they have to buy an expensive amp to
get good SQ, it is simply not the case.


If it's not avoidable 100% of the time, then by all means it's not avoidable.
You can't have it both ways.



None of this foolishness applies to any average car audio system or any
amp and sub recommendation that these people make.


There you go making up your "statistics" again.
Don't lump me into that catergory, I rarely give people specific examples of
amps. Rather I tell them to get a powerful one, more power than they will ever
need.

And this very much applies to the average customer. It dispells the audio myths
surrounding amplifiers so the customer can make informed, educated desicions
instead of buying an amp because it "sounds better". Do you not see that point?
Are you that dumb?

What are you a saleman for SparkOmatic? LOL


Les

  #120   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

since most people do and will clip
their amplifiers


How do you know that "most people" will do this? What percentage of car

audio
installs in this country have you seen? Do you have facts and stats to

back
this claim up?

Read marks post about how easy it is to clip an amp.


I do agree that many people drive their amplifiers into clipping. It's not
difficult. This is easily avoidable, however. The problem is that people
either buy amps that are too small for their needs or base their listening
habits on the limitations of their equipment (especially bassheads - there's
no such thing as "enough" for them).


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