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  #41   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I would have to say that is boost the high, just for the simple reason
that
this amp is more high end'ish then anyof the 6 amps that I have sitting

here.

So the new amp isn't providing a flat response? I'd have it checked out.


The amp works fine.


If it's not providing a flat frequency response then it's not performing to
spec.

There are too many variables to be able to say for certain. That's why

in
order to answer this question it's important to isolate variables so you

can
come to a logically sound conclusion. You didn't isolate the important
variables, such as power, linearity, and listener bias.


Never the less, there is a difference. Dunno what but there is one.


Apparently so.


  #42   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Where you have the gain set has nothing to do with whether or not you're A)
abusing it, or B) overdriving it. Half gain may be WELL into clipping
depending on the output voltage of your HU, which can, over time, hurt your
amp. Just because your Solo lasted (my last one didn't, but I still like
them) doesn't mean squat about how you were treating your amp.

You still seemed to miss the part about Sony and Kicker being different
companies. If you can't get that straight it doesn't surprise me that you
can't figure out how YOU destroyed your amp.



Paul Vina




"Chuck" wrote in message
...
well i didn't kill them they committed suicide..the circuit protections
didn't work...(ah..the little red light didn't come on.. lol) Abuse?..Oh
you mean turning my amp up half way? I don't think so. You see I think
the amps didn't have enuff power and that made them work too hard.
100x4 is what everyone argued me to get ..i said more watt per channel
.and should have listened to myself i guess . You see i have a solo
baric and i turned it up all the way for eight years ..eh guess what it
still works fine. I bet i do find a amp thats worthy. Thanks anyway



  #43   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.



Idiot, in and of itself, is not a derogatory term. It simply means
uneducated. BTW, you ned to start quoting.



Paul Vina




  #44   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Wow. Getting on someone for belittling someone by doing it yourself.
That's funny.



Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a

bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.




  #45   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.


It is not belittling, it is just posting the obvious.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.


No, only the ones who refuse to realize that they do not know what is going on
and keep arguing against the facts, like howdy and pugsly. And those who will
not answer simple questions that would help them understand and keep the
discussion moving foward. You fit both of those.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.


Well, when you are attempting to argue about the scientific and technical stuff
it is a big deal.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.


So I provide reasoning and show you the way it really is repeatedly and that
makes me childish? I attempted to explain to you that I do not doubt you heard
a difference, but what you attributed it too was wrong.
You still, without any proof or logic, continued to argue. Well, I do not have
time for that so I classified you into the only 2 catergories I saw. You are
the one who chose to see yourself as the idiot.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.


You never brought any information to debate with!!!! I even gave you questions
for you to answer to continue the discussion, but you refused to even
acknowledge them. I have no problem debating with people, but when they have
little knowledge of the topic and no desire to learn about it, then the debate
is impossible. If you want to actually discuss the matter then answer the
questions I have already asked, but once you answer those you will probably see
the flaws in your logic.

Les


  #46   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a bas-turd
that he is. LOL



Still desperate for anyone to agree with you? You, like Will, have never
provided any sort of proof or logic to support your argument, yet you still
rally around it. It is sad.

Les
  #47   Report Post  
sancho
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Captain Howdy wrote:

Never the less, there is a difference. Dunno what but there is one.


you'd have a rough idea if you comprehended what you've been reading...
assuming that you've been reading the posts you reply to...
--
sancho
  #48   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

The gain level should be set relative to your HU's line output. By saying
that the amps didn't have enough power are you therefore saying you cranked
it up beyond their ability? If so, I'm sure the amps were being pushed into
clipping delivering distorted sound and thereby generating unneccessary
heat. Heat destroys semiconductors, regardless of the circuit protection
schemes used (they are usually last ditch efforts to try and save the
system, some are better than others at stopping premature failures).
Clipping causes the amp to draw more current then necessary causing the
power supply to work beyond its means and all in all generating more heat.
In any case the user should be operating the amp within its bounds and not
overly rely on the circuit protections. It has nothing to do with the amps
but more so in how you intended to use them. It is an inaccurate statement
then to say that Kicker made crappy amps but a more accurate statement would
be that your demands were not met by those Kicker amps.

And how and where does Sony fit into this picture?

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
well i didn't kill them they committed suicide..the circuit protections
didn't work...(ah..the little red light didn't come on.. lol) Abuse?..Oh
you mean turning my amp up half way? I don't think so. You see I think
the amps didn't have enuff power and that made them work too hard.
100x4 is what everyone argued me to get ..i said more watt per channel
..and should have listened to myself i guess . You see i have a solo
baric and i turned it up all the way for eight years ..eh guess what it
still works fine. I bet i do find a amp thats worthy. Thanks anyway



---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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  #49   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


No idea, it isn't due to power output. Is there something that i have missed?

In article , sancho wrote:
Captain Howdy wrote:

Never the less, there is a difference. Dunno what but there is one.


you'd have a rough idea if you comprehended what you've been reading...
assuming that you've been reading the posts you reply to...

  #50   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

You like that huh?


In article x%gUb.176786$sv6.934638@attbi_s52, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Wow. Getting on someone for belittling someone by doing it yourself.
That's funny.



Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Thats right, set the soundgeek str8. The little prick jerkskin of a

bas-turd
that he is. LOL


In article , Will_Skillz
wrote:

Hold up Soundfreak,

you need to calm down with all that belittling stuff.

Just bcuz you may be a caraudio bookworm doesn't mean that people just
starting are idiots.

So I don't know alot about scientific stuff, big deal bit(h.

Though I still don't agree with the others that are posting here, and
they still don't agree with me, we all, well almost all, are still
respecting each other. So keep that childish $hit to yourself.

Better yet, don't respond to anything I post. There is no room for "I
am greater than thou" attitudes.

I don't mind debates, bcuz some are fruitful. But the deragatory BS
your talking doesn't help a damn thing.






  #52   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article oXgUb.177179$5V2.879280@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina" wrote:
Where you have the gain set has nothing to do with whether or not you're A)
abusing it, or B) overdriving it.


Half gain may be WELL into clipping
depending on the output voltage of your HU, which can, over time, hurt your
amp. Just because your


Care to explain how this can hurt your amp ?



Paul Vina


  #53   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!



No, only the ones who refuse to realize that they do not know what is going on
and keep arguing against the facts, like howdy and pugsly. And those who will
not answer simple questions that would help them understand and keep the
discussion moving foward. You fit both of those.


What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then being
on noob and that i agree with.



So I provide reasoning and show you the way it really is repeatedly and that
makes me childish?


Only in your own twisted mind.


I attempted to explain to you that I do not doubt you heard
a difference, but what you attributed it too was wrong.
You still, without any proof or logic, continued to argue. Well, I do not have
time for that so I classified you into the only 2 catergories I saw. You are
the one who chose to see yourself as the idiot.


If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?





You never brought any information to debate with!!!! I even gave you questions
for you to answer to continue the discussion, but you refused to even
acknowledge them. I have no problem debating with people, but when they have
little knowledge of the topic and no desire to learn about it, then the debate
is impossible. If you want to actually discuss the matter then answer the
questions I have already asked, but once you answer those you will probably see
the flaws in your logic.

Les

  #54   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ" remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.

If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to make your
noobie ass look foolish.

So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it" then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe, you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you through
the day.

Les
  #55   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Were is the proof in regard to your argument or anyone else's for that matter

on this topic?



In most of the posts that I make, where is yours?

Les


  #56   Report Post  
Will_Skillz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


I don't doubt you heard a difference, but what you attribute it to i

wrong

What did I attribute it to

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what'
going on in my car. They're not there.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even a
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just soun
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your littl
website, lol

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially whe
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I thin
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neithe
have the people from the site you keep mentioning

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to mak
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different

Feel free to keep calling me a "noob". Webster "verified" that there i
no such word Moohahaha [sneeky

-
Will_Skill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community
http://www.RealCarAudio.co
Will_Skillz's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...nfo&userid=118
View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...?threadid=4551

  #57   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

What did I attribute it to?

You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.


You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows". Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les


  #58   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Where you have the gain set has nothing to do with whether or not you're
A)
abusing it, or B) overdriving it.


Half gain may be WELL into clipping
depending on the output voltage of your HU, which can, over time, hurt

your
amp. Just because your


Care to explain how this can hurt your amp ?


Overdriving an amp can be harmful due to excess heat. Most amps hold up
reasonably well though.


  #59   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

No idea, it isn't due to power output.

How do you know? Did you measure it?

Is there something that i have missed?


I already listed them, so yeah.


  #60   Report Post  
Ivan Lopez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

A couple of questions as I am curious:

When you did your comparison were you running just the subs or were you
playing the system with everything (i.e. components and/or coaxials)?
Are the crossovers on the amps in question defeatable, I don't think they
are?

I noticed that each amp in question uses a different crossover slope (18db
for the PG and 24db for the Ultimate). This in of itself (if they're being
used, which I'm making the assumption they are) will lead to different
perceived results. Overlap or the lack of overlap may be occuring between
the components and the subs. This may be 'causing a 'blurring' of the
basslines/drums. Plopping in one amp with the different slope may have
'cleaned up' the overlap so that your components and subs were better
matched.

I would be inclined to think that some tweaking/adjusting between your
component amp crossover and the Ultimate crossover would help 'clean' that
blurring up.


"Will_Skillz" wrote in message
...

I know from personal experience that amps sound different than the next
without clipping.

I went from an Ultimate Digitalis 1300S to a Phoenix Gold Tantrum
1200.1. The difference was night and day.

Same sub, same box, same car, same features, same impedance load
(4ohms). I popped my trunk and listened to the sound of my sub when
powered by the Digitalis, and drums sounded like anything BUT drums.
Recordings with drum hits close together, or with basslines that
fluctuated sounded like TRASH. Everything ran together. While playing a
test tone to adjust my gain properly I could barely tell when it
started distorting, it was that horrible.

On the other hand, when I got my Tantrum amp drums sounded perfect,
even when played close together. And fluctuating basslines were played
perfectly. It just sounded like the Tantrum had better control over my
sub than my Digitalis.

There was a H U G E difference in SQ between the two, even at low
volume.


--
Will_Skillz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
http://www.RealCarAudio.com
Will_Skillz's Profile:
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View this thread:
http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=45516



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  #61   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

You would have to be over-driving the amp for one hell of a longtime before if
would go into melt down even if there was no thermo protection which most amps
have anyways. If anything would hurt the amp would be the speaker that would
get damaged in the process, but that's not the question at hand.

Care to explain how this can hurt your amp ?


Overdriving an amp can be harmful due to excess heat. Most amps hold up
reasonably well though.


  #62   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ" remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.


Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/




If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to make your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.



So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it" then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe, you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you through
the day.

Les

  #63   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference that
changes from one person to the next?





In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.



Since you like me so much that you include me in almost all of your posts, how
about giving up a little head?



You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows". Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les


  #64   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Your first link doesn't appear to say anything soundfreak hasn't said
already.

The second link is stereophile. Enough said. I didn't even click on that.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
In article ,

othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear

a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the

differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others

have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to

avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ"

remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy

and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can

call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes

about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.


Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/




If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely

poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over

and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to

make your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.



So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it"

then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe,

you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious

noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you

through
the day.

Les



  #65   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I guess pushing the outputs past their design limit won't hurt anything,
huh?

I'm sure the power supply would be happy with being overdriven as well.


Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
In article oXgUb.177179$5V2.879280@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina"

wrote:
Where you have the gain set has nothing to do with whether or not you're

A)
abusing it, or B) overdriving it.


Half gain may be WELL into clipping
depending on the output voltage of your HU, which can, over time, hurt

your
amp. Just because your


Care to explain how this can hurt your amp ?



Paul Vina






  #66   Report Post  
Luke Hague
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I hate to break it to you soundfreak, but I don't think will is going to
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters. To him there is a
difference. Don't turn this into a Runner vs. Nousaine post.

"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your

car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those

who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that, crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of amplifiers,

and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only

would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you

are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of those

as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.


You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't

know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less

credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows".

Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one

of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and

maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les




  #67   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

SQ is the accurate reproduction of sound. Period. How we percieve it may
be different, but that's not what's in question.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference

that
changes from one person to the next?





In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What did I attribute it to?


You attributed it to SQ, which unless one amp is faulty it is not.

I couldn't care less who can verify what. They can't verify what's
going on in my car. They're not there.


Noone has to be there. The principles of physics do not change in your

car.

So when I can hear AND feel the lows differently between 2 amps even at
low volume, what in the hell could it be besides the amps just sound
different?! What? Oh, yes I'll hold while you consult your little
website, lol.


Sorry no website, just several years of research and listening to those

who
know more than me. What else could it be? Well, different gain

structures,
different crossover points, pyschoacoustics, more actual power, NOT SQ.
You tell me Will, what factors DO contribute to the "SQ" change as you
describe? Your little "I can hear it and feel it" crap is just that,

crap.

The things you state as "facts" are hilarious. Especially when
everytime I listen to my stereo it contradicts your "facts". I think
the only fact here is that you haven't heard my stereo, and neither
have the people from the site you keep mentioning.


You stuck on some site? Carsound.com does independent tests of

amplifiers, and
they publish the results. If you would have visited the site you not only

would
know what it was but why I referenced it.
ANd the fact still remains that you do not know what in the blue hell you

are
talking about. I have given you several other factors that could be
contributing to the "difference" you describe, yet you ignore all of

those as
it has to be some phantom SQ difference.

I don't care what gadgets anyone uses to adjust my 2 amps to make
everything "equal", their notes will still sound and feel different.



Since you like me so much that you include me in almost all of your posts,

how
about giving up a little head?



You really are an idiot, at first I though maybe just a noob who doesn't

know.
But now you are just an idiot. Your little statement makes you less

credible.
You are unwilling to listen to FACTS because your noobie ass "knows".

Whatever
will, I have seen many noobs come and go and you will just be another one

of
those. Maybe one day you will use your brain, go ahead and keep it up and

maybe
one day you can look like a dumbass like your hero Howdy.


Les




  #68   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Who are you to say what true SQ really is? SQ is nothing but a preference
that
changes from one person to the next?


I am not. But what he is attributed to "SQ" is very likely something else. I
would not tell someone that something sounds good to them, but I will point out
when someone attributes something to SQ of an amp when it is not.

Les
  #69   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm


Well the only time he can attribute to one amp sounding different than the
other is when it is clipped. I have said all along that they sound the same
when they are not clipped and agreed that do sound different when they are. And
since his article focuses mostly on different types of distortion it is fairly
useless to the argument.
But I think this guy knows some stuff, but in the end he is stretching to find
something, much like you. By the end of the article he completey ignores the
facts of pychoacoustics and preconceived notions. He always suggests that amps
do sound different, though he admits that in proper test conditions where it is
controlled they do not. In the end he "hopes" for something that will "prove"
that amps sound different. Alas, he shall be waiting for a long time. I hope
you were not actually using that as reasons for your "amps sound different"
argument, it just makes your case look worse.




http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/


You have got to be kidding me right? You are not actually going to try and use
this for a reference. But I read it anyway. Again, he has a theory that they
sound different yet cannot refute the physics staring him in the face. But one
day physics may change and you can be happy, until then...

Les
  #70   Report Post  
Tony Fernandes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to make
your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.


Howdy,

Yes, he's made you look foolish each and every time. Why are you arguing
with him??? He knows 10 times more about car audio than you!!! WTF??
Trust me, as an outside observer who's just been reading along...you're
never going to win. And I get the feeling that if you did, he would admit
it. But you clearly know just enough about what you're talking about to get
yourself in trouble. Kind of like a brown belt that thinks he knows karate
until he goes out and gets in a fight and gets his ass kicked. HOWDY,
YOU'RE GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED! You need to recognize this and step down.

Tony


Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
In article ,

othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear

a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the

differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others

have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to

avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ"

remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy

and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can

call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes

about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.


Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/




If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely

poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over

and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to

make your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.



So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it"

then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe,

you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious

noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you

through
the day.

Les





  #71   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters.


I have to agree that Will's mind will never be changed. Moreover, there's
really almost no point to Les's side of the argument (no matter how true it may
be or that I agree with him!). In order to prove that Les and Mark and the
others are right (which they are!) you'd need to conduct testing under
conditions that simply do not occur in the real world of car audio. Levels do
not get matched, things do not remain constant. Clean power is clean power and
that'll always be true, but the nature of car audio creates an environment
where sound, or at least -perceived- sound often does change from amp to amp.
This isn't an argument about right or wrong anymore, it's an argument over
pointless bull**** between two sides who both refuse to relinquish. I'm sorry I
started the thread, please forgive me.
  #72   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I hate to break it to you soundfreak, but I don't think will is going to
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters. To him there is a
difference. Don't turn this into a Runner vs. Nousaine post.


I hate to break it to you Luke, but physics doesn't change in Will's car and
Will will likely never actually know anything about car audio. There are 2
points that I have constantly made.
Point one: Drive an amp within its limits and they sound the same, assuming you
have a properly functioning amp.
Point two: There are far more important things to consider when purchasing an
amp.

He percieves a difference and I, and others, pointed out to him that the
difference was not what he attributed it too. But him being a noob he decided
to challenge it without logic or evidence and well, this is what you get. I
gave up on Will as ever being knowledgeable around the 3rd post he made, but
others are still reading this thread and they will see the evidence for
themselves.
Did you even have a point to your post?

Les

  #73   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

I have to agree that Will's mind will never be changed. Moreover, there's
really almost no point to Les's side of the argument (no matter how true it
may
be or that I agree with him!).


Steve, there is a point to what I have been saying all along. I listed it in a
previous post but will relist it.
1) When operating an amp within it's designed limits, they will sound the same.

2) There are far more important things to consider than an amps "SQ", which
have been listed several times.

Number 2 is the most important one imo, But you cannot understand or get that
without first understanding number 1.
That is why I gave the advice at the start that I did.

In order to prove that Les and Mark and the
others are right (which they are!) you'd need to conduct testing under
conditions that simply do not occur in the real world of car audio.


No need. The testing has already been done. And you are right those conditions
do not readily occur in a daily driver. But it is still important to understand
the results of those contolled tests and what they mean for you!
It is not an argument over right or wrong, it is can you look at the data that
is there and use it to your advantage. Then actually make intelligent desicions
based on facts and logic rather than audio myths. Your system, and likely bank
account, will be most happy. But, obviously howdy and will cannot, they will
continue to be suckered by marketing gimmicks and overlook the important
things. Oh well, thier loss.

Les


  #74   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

The purpose of the discussion is to dispell the common myth that you need to
buy a "high end" amplifier for good sound. The fact remains that a "high
end" (read: expensive) amp gives you NOTHING that a lower priced amp gives
you. In fact, there are several cases where people decline the mid-priced
amp, which has better features for that particular user, in favor of a
high-priced "high end" amp. Therefore, they're making the wrong decision.

If you don't think this is common, then you haven't hung around in here long
enough.

"Steve Grauman" wrote in message
...
change his mind about it, he knows, or in your opinion "precieves" a
difference, and that's really all that matters.


I have to agree that Will's mind will never be changed. Moreover, there's
really almost no point to Les's side of the argument (no matter how true

it may
be or that I agree with him!). In order to prove that Les and Mark and the
others are right (which they are!) you'd need to conduct testing under
conditions that simply do not occur in the real world of car audio. Levels

do
not get matched, things do not remain constant. Clean power is clean power

and
that'll always be true, but the nature of car audio creates an environment
where sound, or at least -perceived- sound often does change from amp to

amp.
This isn't an argument about right or wrong anymore, it's an argument over
pointless bull**** between two sides who both refuse to relinquish. I'm

sorry I
started the thread, please forgive me.



  #75   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

Steve, there is a point to what I have been saying all along.

I know, that's not really what I meant. I agree with you, and I know you're
correct. I'm simply saying that there's no convinving the daft, and having a
battle of the wits with an unarmed opponent is no fun.


  #76   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

The purpose of the discussion is to dispell the common myth that you need to
buy a "high end" amplifier for good sound.


I understand all that, and I'm not saying you're wrong (in fact, I've agreed
with you). I'm simply saying that there's no convincing some people, even when
you have truth on your side. Will is obviously unwilling to make the leap from
perception to reality, and realizing that would end the debate and the waste of
bandwidth.
  #77   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

It seems that people do hear differences between amplifiers, why don't you and
soundgeek?


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Your first link doesn't appear to say anything soundfreak hasn't said
already.

The second link is stereophile. Enough said. I didn't even click on that.

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Soundfreak03) wrote:
What facts are you taking about? You didn't produce any facts other then
being
on noob and that i agree with.


How about the fact that a properly working amplifier has insignifigant
differences in it's measurements from another amplifier. How can you hear

a
difference that is not there? When all of the data shows that the

differences
are below the threshold of our hearing, especially in a car enviroment.
Carsound.com can verify that, as well as measurements that I and others

have
taken. I have made that point repeatedly. Yet, you and others continue to

avoid
the simple question. If all of the parameters that factor into "SQ"

remain
largely the same then how can you hear a difference? Answer that Howdy

and
maybe you can have a discussion. Until then you are just a noob, you can

call
me one but my posts suggest otherwise, and well, your posts speak volumes

about
how confused you really are on virtually any topic.


Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/




If you don't have the time to post, then why even bother?


Ah yes, I forget that your reading comprehension skills are extremely

poor. The
implication is that I do not have the time to post the same thing over

and over
again to a noob who refuses to listen, but I will always have time to

make your
noobie ass look foolish.


You can sure try.You haven't done it yet.



So, Howdy, until you can actually offer something besides "I heard it"

then
your point is moot. Bring something to the table and maybe, just maybe,

you can
get someone to consider your point. But as long as you have the obvious

noobs
on your side you seem to be happy, hey, whatever you need to get you

through
the day.

Les



  #78   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

In article , othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
Try this link and tell me what you think
http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm


Well the only time he can attribute to one amp sounding different than the
other is when it is clipped. I have said all along that they sound the same
when they are not clipped and agreed that do sound different when they are. And
since his article focuses mostly on different types of distortion it is fairly
useless to the argument.


If all amps shared the same levels of distortion and x-over distortion, and
other factors, you'de be right about the above, but that is not the case.


But I think this guy knows some stuff, but in the end he is stretching to find
something, much like you. By the end of the article he completey ignores the
facts of pychoacoustics and preconceived notions. He always suggests that amps
do sound different, though he admits that in proper test conditions where it is
controlled they do not. In the end he "hopes" for something that will "prove"
that amps sound different. Alas, he shall be waiting for a long time. I hope
you were not actually using that as reasons for your "amps sound different"
argument, it just makes your case look worse.


It shows that people do hear a difference in amps even under normal use.
That's my point.





http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/


You have got to be kidding me right? You are not actually going to try and use
this for a reference. But I read it anyway. Again, he has a theory that they
sound different yet cannot refute the physics staring him in the face. But one
day physics may change and you can be happy, until then...

Les

  #79   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!


My question is, what would it hurt ?

In article eeBUb.184584$sv6.952735@attbi_s52, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
I guess pushing the outputs past their design limit won't hurt anything,
huh?

I'm sure the power supply would be happy with being overdriven as well.


Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
In article oXgUb.177179$5V2.879280@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina"

wrote:
Where you have the gain set has nothing to do with whether or not you're

A)
abusing it, or B) overdriving it.


Half gain may be WELL into clipping
depending on the output voltage of your HU, which can, over time, hurt

your
amp. Just because your


Care to explain how this can hurt your amp ?



Paul Vina




  #80   Report Post  
Steve Grauman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Amps, more argument!

It seems that people do hear differences between amplifiers, why don't you
and
soundgeek?


The question isn't really wether people hear a difference, it's about if
there's actually a difference or if you're simply hearing the things you want
to. I've always thought that I could detect a difference in sound between home
A/V recievers, but I always attributed the differences to the unit's DACs and
power output more than the amp itself. Even if there really is a sonic
difference between those A/V recievers (and I'm not entirely positive it wasn't
just my mind playing tricks on me), car audio amps don't have DACs that can
color the sound, and if the THD is below .10%, than it's inaudible and won't
have an effect. You can swap between an Audiobahn amp and a Zapco competition
series- if everything else remains consistant (like crossover points, the
speakers used, amp-power output, etc...) there should be no detecable sonic
differences between the amps. Obviously, going from a 75x2 amp to a 125x2 will
yield some difference, especially if you drove the less powerful unit into
clipping, but we're talking about equally matched units here. Would Richard
Clark really be gambling $10,000 on this if he thought there was a significant
chance of his "theory" being wrong?
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