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#1
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Tuner Recommendations
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#2
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Tuner Recommendations
Hi Charles,
I am afraid that we would need more information to give you any useful advice, other than to go to; http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ There is another site, but it rates the Carver TX-11 as high as the Sansui TU-717, I have owned both, I sent my Carver to the factory, they sent it back saying there was nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it sucked! Stereo Review had written a glowing article about it, but it was absolute junk. It was worse than junk because it cost a lot of money. But I digress... None of them sound as good as would be nice out of the box. Some of the Kenwood's used Elna caps which, while they are not really great caps, gave them a nice warm sound. One of the biggest questions is what do you desire most, sound quality, distance reception, or if in a city, multipath rejection? If you can figure out what you need, http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ should have the answer for you. If you buy a tuner and it really does not seem to be as good as they implied, my guess is that someone either cleaned the tuner with something that left a sticky residue on it, and then it collected dust, or there is a problem with the tuner, often people tweak the caps on the tuner, get lost as they do not know how to tweak electronics, or some such. The guys on that site, IMO, have always been dead on when they called something. So, if it does not seem to measure up, it may need to be serviced, and I would use someone they recommend, were I not a technician myself. :-) -- Best Regards, Lou "Charles Epstein" wrote in message news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01... Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#3
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Tuner Recommendations
Look at the link below
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ The old 70's are the best tuners. But they will only be as good as the station transmitting in your area. "Charles Epstein" wrote in message news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01... Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#4
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Tuner Recommendations
A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling prices for many tuners. And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire that now comes with most new tuners. I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the 1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum Dynalab and Fanfare. In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase. There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if it is re-acquainted with James for updates. If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will out-perform them. Charles Epstein wrote: Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#5
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Tuner Recommendations
My favorite sound currently available tuner is the Parasound TDQ150. It is
relatively simple design, using one of the newer Sanyo multiplex decoders that don't need periodic adjustment of the VCO (a 456kHz ceramic resonator is used in a variation of a VC XO circuit). It uses a single transistor line amp; no ICs in the audio path. It is not the most selective tuner around, but RF performance is fair. I agree with the other posters, that the older tuners are generally very good. My favorites are the Luxman T110, T88V, the McIntosh MR78, and some of the Sansui upper tier tuners. I can't comment on the Fanfare tuners, but I did have the Magnum Dynalab MD100 and the MD102, along with the Linn Kudos, and neither of them sounded as good as either the Luxman tuners, or the Parasound tuner, for that matter. Even the Cambridge Audio T500 sounds better than the Dynalab and Linn tuners, but the stereo separation is nothing to write home about (43dB, after separation adjustment). The AM broadcast band performance, with the dual conversion design, however, is very good. Since folks have different preferences, it is good to actually audition the tuner in your own system. Pete Tim Britt wrote in message news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52... A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling prices for many tuners. And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire that now comes with most new tuners. I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the 1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum Dynalab and Fanfare. In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase. There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if it is re-acquainted with James for updates. If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will out-perform them. Charles Epstein wrote: Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#6
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Tuner Recommendations
In general 1980's and early to mid 90's Denon tuners
give good all around results. They aren't the best at anything. But they are a very good mix of all design aspects. Which give a result that is satisfying. Even the lower end tuners from Denon are not bad at all. Dennis |
#7
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Tuner Recommendations
I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my
youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more reserved in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if memory serves. -- Best Regards, Lou "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52... A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling prices for many tuners. And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire that now comes with most new tuners. I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the 1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum Dynalab and Fanfare. In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase. There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if it is re-acquainted with James for updates. If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will out-perform them. Charles Epstein wrote: Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#8
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Tuner Recommendations
You can get the older FM tuners for peanuts. I have too many. I couldn't
resist a Yamaha CT-810 on e-bay for $35. It sounds great, really super. On close stations it matches the best Sansui or Magnum Dyanlab I use as bench marks. "Lou" wrote in message ... I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more reserved in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if memory serves. -- Best Regards, Lou "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52... A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling prices for many tuners. And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire that now comes with most new tuners. I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the 1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum Dynalab and Fanfare. In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase. There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if it is re-acquainted with James for updates. If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will out-perform them. Charles Epstein wrote: Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#9
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Tuner Recommendations
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#10
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Tuner Recommendations
Low,
We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock Background: APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise. Results: Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations: 1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78 2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up 3 - Sansui TU-919 4 - Pioneer F-91 5 - Kenwood KT-815 Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the public radio station) 1 - McIntosh MR74 2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74) 3 - Pioneer F-91 4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2) 5 - Sansui TU-919 6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal) Best Selectivity 1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else) 2 - McIntosh MR74 3 - Sony ST-S730ES 4 - Sansui TU-919 5 - Pioneer F-91 6 - Kenwood KT-815 What we kept: 1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner 2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system 3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system. What we got rid of: 1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from 2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay 3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to $36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new "reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his equipment could measure. Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74 and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the MR74 or the MR78. The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS tuner. Cheers Lou wrote: I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more reserved in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if memory serves. |
#11
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Tuner Recommendations
"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock Background: APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise. Results: Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations: 1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78 2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up 3 - Sansui TU-919 4 - Pioneer F-91 5 - Kenwood KT-815 Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the public radio station) 1 - McIntosh MR74 2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74) 3 - Pioneer F-91 4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2) 5 - Sansui TU-919 6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal) Best Selectivity 1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else) 2 - McIntosh MR74 3 - Sony ST-S730ES 4 - Sansui TU-919 5 - Pioneer F-91 6 - Kenwood KT-815 What we kept: 1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner 2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system 3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system. What we got rid of: 1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from 2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay 3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to $36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new "reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his equipment could measure. Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74 and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the MR74 or the MR78. The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS tuner. Cheers Tim - Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver TX-11. My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and the FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have reasonable sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The FM100c was designed for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs more. Then of course their is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good shape (particularly if it has had cap upgrades) can sound really, really fine. My experience with 70's and 80's solid state tuners parallels yours...they could be excellent on sensitivity and selectivity, but usual fall down badly on sound quality (apparently the SONY is an exception, as is the Carver from the late 80's.). I did a shootout back in the early '80's against HK, Gamma, Luxman and other tuners. The Carver TX-11 won (sound quality was my main criteria). The only SS even in the hunt was an 1974 Citation 14...and it had a thickness to the upper bass/lower midrange that marred its otherwise excellent sound. Like you I am blessed with a plethora of good Public Radio Stations....Amherst, Albany, Boston, Connecticut. With good jazz, classical, and folk stations, a good tuner is a constant source of pleasure. Thanks again....now I know I won't be able to afford a 74. :-) Harry |
#12
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Tuner Recommendations
Great work. Very interesting test.
"Tim Britt" wrote in message news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock [quoted text deleted -- deb] |
#13
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Tuner Recommendations
Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an
interesting thread. Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even more confused than when I got this all in motion. I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/ They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though each "mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range. "Sam Stark" wrote in message ... Great work. Very interesting test. "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock [quoted text deleted -- deb] |
#14
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Tuner Recommendations
Hi Harry,
I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to replace, sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks with good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though... -- Best Regards, Lou "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock Background: APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise. Results: Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations: 1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78 2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up 3 - Sansui TU-919 4 - Pioneer F-91 5 - Kenwood KT-815 Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the public radio station) 1 - McIntosh MR74 2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74) 3 - Pioneer F-91 4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2) 5 - Sansui TU-919 6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal) Best Selectivity 1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else) 2 - McIntosh MR74 3 - Sony ST-S730ES 4 - Sansui TU-919 5 - Pioneer F-91 6 - Kenwood KT-815 What we kept: 1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner 2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system 3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system. What we got rid of: 1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from 2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay 3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to $36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new "reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his equipment could measure. Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74 and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the MR74 or the MR78. The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS tuner. Cheers Tim - Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver TX-11. My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and the FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have reasonable sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The FM100c was designed for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs more. Then of course their is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good shape (particularly if it has had cap upgrades) can sound really, really fine. My experience with 70's and 80's solid state tuners parallels yours...they could be excellent on sensitivity and selectivity, but usual fall down badly on sound quality (apparently the SONY is an exception, as is the Carver from the late 80's.). I did a shootout back in the early '80's against HK, Gamma, Luxman and other tuners. The Carver TX-11 won (sound quality was my main criteria). The only SS even in the hunt was an 1974 Citation 14...and it had a thickness to the upper bass/lower midrange that marred its otherwise excellent sound. Like you I am blessed with a plethora of good Public Radio Stations....Amherst, Albany, Boston, Connecticut. With good jazz, classical, and folk stations, a good tuner is a constant source of pleasure. Thanks again....now I know I won't be able to afford a 74. :-) Harry |
#15
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Tuner Recommendations
"Lou" wrote in message
news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04... Hi Harry, I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to replace, sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks with good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though... -- Best Regards, Lou snip, no longer relevant Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting to get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give a listen. Anywhere near Western Mass? It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me. I'm looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced music. I want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most tube equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state. All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all his tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his system. |
#16
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Tuner Recommendations
Yeah, Harry,
I wasn't going to say anything. But I have heard and owned these TX-11 tuners. I thought your original statement was accidentally typed in backwards. They generally gave very good selectivity and great sensitivity. And pretty transistory sound, and I don't mean that as a compliment. Maybe yours sounds better, but I cannot really think of a tuner I have tried that sounded worse than the 3 TX-11's I have used. Not trying to be nasty here Harry, seriously I am not. Just a differing opinion. The best sounding I have heard are the McIntosh tube units. With Mac solid state along with Magnum Dynalabs being next. Also have enjoyed a couple of Denon's (which I still have). Some of the better Sansui and Pioneers are pretty good too. And a Nakamichi was very nice probably up there with the solid state Mac's. What I like about the Denon is the way it handles things. By this I mean if you manually switch in and out of stereo or engage hi-blend or not etc. etc. the Denon almost always makes the same choices I would make myself based upon the signal quality. It sounds pretty nice, and is decent RF wise. Others are nicer, but didn't have the quality of making choices automatically that would match my own. And obviously I cannot say whether someone else would make choices as I would in that regard. Dennis "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... "Lou" wrote in message news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04... Hi Harry, I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to replace, sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks with good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though... -- Best Regards, Lou snip, no longer relevant Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting to get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give a listen. Anywhere near Western Mass? It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me. I'm looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced music. I want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most tube equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state. All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all his tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his system. |
#17
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Tuner Recommendations
I had most tuners, except from the costly Kenwoods, and consider McIntosh
MR78 the best sounding, I heard - had the MR74 as well. At least that particular unit was inferior to all the MR78's I had. In the price range of 2-400 you might look for any Accuphase; the T-101 is within your limit and close to the MR78 - just missing a bit of the warmth. "Charles Epstein" skrev i en meddelelse news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01... Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance. |
#18
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Tuner Recommendations
"Dennis Moore" wrote in message
news:Hd0qb.110295$Fm2.98289@attbi_s04... Yeah, Harry, I wasn't going to say anything. But I have heard and owned these TX-11 tuners. I thought your original statement was accidentally typed in backwards. They generally gave very good selectivity and great sensitivity. And pretty transistory sound, and I don't mean that as a compliment. Maybe yours sounds better, but I cannot really think of a tuner I have tried that sounded worse than the 3 TX-11's I have used. Not trying to be nasty here Harry, seriously I am not. Just a differing opinion. The best sounding I have heard are the McIntosh tube units. With Mac solid state along with Magnum Dynalabs being next. Also have enjoyed a couple of Denon's (which I still have). Some of the better Sansui and Pioneers are pretty good too. And a Nakamichi was very nice probably up there with the solid state Mac's. What I like about the Denon is the way it handles things. By this I mean if you manually switch in and out of stereo or engage hi-blend or not etc. etc. the Denon almost always makes the same choices I would make myself based upon the signal quality. It sounds pretty nice, and is decent RF wise. Others are nicer, but didn't have the quality of making choices automatically that would match my own. And obviously I cannot say whether someone else would make choices as I would in that regard. Dennis Now I'm really intrigued. I've actually a-b'd my Carver versus one of my two Fisher FM90B's in my main system. The FM90B I have actually auditioned next to a MAC (not sure which, I believe a 74 o4 78 but it may have been another) and thought the Fisher sounded slightly more neutral while still retaining "tube warmth". In my system, level matched and only requiring a switch from Aux 1 to Aux 2, the two tuners sounded so close I would have had difficulty deciding "blind". Careful back-and-forthing (I was trying to decide which to leave in the main system) led me to conclude that the Carver had just a touch more transient attack and "openess" that made it just a smidge more "real" sounding...eg. "they are here"...than the FM90B. I used very fine classical and jazz transmissions from WFCR, our local (Western Mass) public radio station. At one point the station was playing a selection from Brubeck's "Time Out" so I whipped out my CD version and flipped to the CD, which sounded very closely matched in volume (although I can't be sure). I was unable to tell the "over-the-air" cd from the station from the local cd in character of sound when switching back and forth. I don't know any other way short of absolutely rigorous blind testing to decide a component is "musical" and "neutral". It was enough for me, and it has been in my system ever since with the two Fisher FM90B's doing duty in my second system and as backup respectively. I guess one might mistake the transparency and quickness of this unit for transistory, but its sound character so mimics the FM90B's sound (including body and dimensionality) that I would never have thought to discribe it that way. "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... "Lou" wrote in message news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04... Hi Harry, I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to replace, sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks with good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though... -- Best Regards, Lou snip, no longer relevant Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting to get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give a listen. Anywhere near Western Mass? It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me. I'm looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced music. I want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most tube equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state. All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all his tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his system. |
#19
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Tuner Recommendations
It is an interesting thread.
As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great- about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to really image the sound from them. "Charles Epstein" wrote in message news:GlWpb.77162$mZ5.493712@attbi_s54... Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an interesting thread. Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even more confused than when I got this all in motion. I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/ They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though each "mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range. "Sam Stark" wrote in message ... Great work. Very interesting test. "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock [quoted text deleted -- deb] |
#20
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Tuner Recommendations
The problem with all tuner shootouts, recommendations, etc. is that
there's nothing to listen to that is broadcast with even modest fidelity. The 2 stations I might listen to are both so compressed that there seems no point in searching out the best in tuners. Norm Strong |
#21
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Tuner Recommendations - LONG
Thanks for all the feedback from everyone, so now let me explain our
particular selfish reasons for doing what we did and why some tuners were excluded from our little "shoot-out" And we'll try and answer some questions here we've received from many of you off-line. We had been using a Kenwood KT-815 right after we moved here and its sound got to the point where it was not as enjoyable for us to listen to it as before. Maybe the stations here put out a better quality signal than in the D/FW area we moved from (not many NPR stations there anyway) or maybe our ears got better. So we went to a dealer in Raleigh, NC we trust and borrowed a Pioneer F-91 and whatever the top Magnum tuner was at the time (it was in 195 and we don't remember the model number). In our location, the Magnum sounded a teensy bit better but the Pioneer F-91 was much more sensitive and picked more of the NPR stations we listen to with less background hiss and noise, and this was with everything set in the regular stereo mode, no hi-blend or anything activated, so we got the F-91 in 1995. In 2001, we wondered if there was anything better out there, so we bought some tuners off eBay and AudioGon to try. Our reasoning was that we could resell the ones that we didn't want and only be out the shipping charges and this seemed a small price to pay to get to try a bunch of tuners. Now, there were some tuners we purposely excluded from our test: 1. All tube tuners were excluded. I worked at a high-end store in Chapel Hill in the 1970's and I remember we had some customers with tube Fisher, Scott, Eico and even a few with Marantz 10 and 10B tuners. We saw most of their tuners at least once a year for alignments and an occasional tube replacement. In our system, it takes a good 4 hours of work to get a tuner inserted into our equipment closet and hooked up. We didn't want to have to pull it out every year or so and be without it for several weeks for routine maintenance. 2. All Carver tuners were excluded. Some of you are very passionate about Carver tuners, but we thought there was too much unit to unit variability in them and they didn't seem as well designed as his other electronics. Our feeling is if you have one you really like, you ended up with a good one, so keep it and enjoy it and disregard what we think. After all, it's only our opinion - We are not RF engineers. 3. All NAIM tuners - Not sensitive enough. 4. All Linn tuners - We were told by many the Kremlin was the only really good tuner they made and they are almost impossible to find. 5. All Yamaha tuners - We had owned a CT-1010 in the past that was a lemon and we hated the "auto lock tuning" feature it had. So we were biased against another Yamaha. 6. All Nikko tuners - We think the company had folded by 1995 and we were not sure how much support would be available for Nikko, even though many consider the Gamma V to be a very good tuner. Tuners we would have like to test but could not find one at the time: 1. McIntosh MR77 2. Accuphase T-100 3. Pioneer F-26 4. Kenwood L-O2T 5. Onkyo T-9090 Mk. II 6. Marantz 2130 or an ST-7/ST-8 7. Sansui TU-X1 8. Technics ST-9030 9. Updated "Charlie The Tuner" by SUMO So we went with the six we had on hand. We figured the range of what we were testing would tell us our primary objective, which "Was there another tuner that would work better in our specific location?" We found two, the McIntosh MR74 and the Sony ST-S730ES (and later, the Sony ST-J75, to a degree), and the MR74 sounded a bit better to us, so the McIntosh MR74 took up permanent residence here. Perhaps we cheated though: Our MR74 had been rebuilt and aligned by McIntosh Labs and they did a super job and we would hesitate to recommend any McIntosh tuner owner send their tuner to McIntosh, though we've heard they will only work on SS tuners now. Later, Tom Manley of Audio Refurbishers in Knoxville asked to borrow our MR74, so we lent it to him (he's a great guy to deal with). When we went back to pick it up, he said his tech had gone through it, squeezed 3 dB more separation out of it and made it a little bit more sensitive, and then he really, really tried hard to buy it from us, even offering us either a McIntosh MR75 or an MR71 in an even trade. We figured if he wanted it this badly, we should really hang on to it, so we did. Yes, we wish we could have tried some of the other tuners listed above, particularly the McIntosh MR77 as there seem to be a general consensus it sounds better than either a McIntosh MR78 or the MR74. We've read great things about the Sansui TU-X1, updated "Charlies," and the Onkyo T-9090 Mk.II, and the Tuner Info Group ranks the Kenwood L-02T as the one to beat. And we would have like to have tried an Accuphase T-100 - in some private correspondence with James Bongiorno, he noted he was not fond of most Japanese tuners, but he thought the Accuphase T-100 was a particularly good one. Some of you have emailed us off the list and asked about our antenna amp and cabling. Because of the way our house is built and the fact we wanted the APS-13 mounted on our single chimney, we have about a 150' run of RG-6 from the antenna to the tuner. We tried it first without any antenna amp and barely got a listenable signal. We then inserted the amp on the antenna and it made an astounding difference and there ARE signal strength variations between the stations we pick up. We also tried the antenna amp at the END of the cable run and we got a lot of noise - It was not much better than using no amp, so placing one on the receiving antenna seem to be critical. The amp is a Wineguard (can't see the model number on it) that we paid about $50 for and we "think" it has about 17 or 19 dB gain. It is powered by a "wall wart" power supply and we had to run a power cable to it clipped to the RG-6. We've read all the negatives about using antenna amps, but all we can say it that when we placed ours AT THE ANTENNA (it's actually mounted on our rotor motor box), it worked, and when we tried it at the end of the cable run from the antenna, it really sucked. As for testing other tuners, we're done. We're very happy with the MR74, but we are considering "maybe" trying a MR67 or MR71 because so many people tell us they sound so much better than any of the McIntosh SS tuners. We have reservations, though, because we're really concerned about sensitivity given our remote location. And please note we're not saying the MR74 is the best tuner out there. There are other tuners that are more sensitive and there are other tuners like the MR78 that are more selective. The MR74 just happens to work for us and we like its "sound" quite a bit, so it's not leaving. And with the growing "Great Satan" of DAB, we're thinking that quality FM broadcasting may be in its golden years, like vinyl, and that DAB may soon render analog FM tuners obsolete just like the CD replaced the LP in the mass market. So we don't want to have too large an investment in a potentially obsolete technology. We read some of the UK publications and the audiophile community there seems to uniformly condemn and hate the BBC's DAB broadcasts compared to the BBC's analog FM broadcasts. Harry Lavo wrote: "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53... Low, We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner "shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax. Here's what we tested: McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs Sony ST-S730ES - Stock Pioneer F-91 - Stock Sansui TU-919 - Stock Kenwood KT-815 - Stock Background: APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise. Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver TX-11. My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and the FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have reasonable sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The FM100c was designed for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs more. Then of course their is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good shape (particularly if it has had cap upgrades) can sound really, really fine. |
#22
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Tuner Recommendations
"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01... It is an interesting thread. As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great- about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to really image the sound from them. Depends a lot on which Magnum Dynalab model. I compared the 'Etude' to the lower model 101 (I believe that was the number) many years ago using the signal sleuth. I recall the Etude had considerably better audio performance which IMO easily justified the additional cost. I've been a happy owner of the Etude/Sleuth combination now for many years...well worth searching out. A good aerial/antenna is a must, I use a roof mounted Yagi array. I don't know the present used market price though. |
#23
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Tuner Recommendations
Part of the joy and bane of analog is its inconsistency. Once you leave
digital audio reproduction one tube can make the sine waves musical or create a whole lot of static. FM tuners as much as LP turntables and phono cartridges are so individual that I've found jewels among cast-offs and dross among the supposed best. "Mike Gilmour" wrote in message news:VJaqb.112057$HS4.969971@attbi_s01... "Sam Stark" wrote in message news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01... It is an interesting thread. As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great- about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to really image the sound from them. Depends a lot on which Magnum Dynalab model. I compared the 'Etude' to the lower model 101 (I believe that was the number) many years ago using the signal sleuth. I recall the Etude had considerably better audio performance which IMO easily justified the additional cost. I've been a happy owner of the Etude/Sleuth combination now for many years...well worth searching out. A good aerial/antenna is a must, I use a roof mounted Yagi array. I don't know the present used market price though. |
#24
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Tuner Recommendations
You apparently live in an RF poor environment, from a programming
standpoint. Are there no public radio stations you can pick up? They generally broadcast a higher quality signal because they generally cannot afford to purchase the equipment that compresses the signal. Or you could move ;-) normanstrong wrote: The problem with all tuner shootouts, recommendations, etc. is that there's nothing to listen to that is broadcast with even modest fidelity. The 2 stations I might listen to are both so compressed that there seems no point in searching out the best in tuners. Norm Strong |
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Tuner Recommendations - LONG
5. All Yamaha tuners - We had owned a CT-1010 in the past that was a
lemon and we hated the "auto lock tuning" feature it had. So we were biased against another Yamaha. great read on your shoot out. but it's a shame that you were biased against Yamaha. At least for my unit, the auto lock tuning feature is easy to disable. i actually was biased against Yamaha when i was looking because i didn't think that Yamaha could build anything beyond "mid-fi". but, i was wrong... when looking for a sub $400 tuner many years ago (1995?), i tried out a lot of different tuners including the Yamaha, Sony ES, Denon, Rotel, NAD, low end Mag-Dyna, Marantz (used), Adcom and Parasound units of the day. (note: the only used unit i could audition at home was the Marantz...other stores wouldn't allow me to do that for the time i required (i lived on Cape Cod and needed to trek very far for many of these audition units). anyway, in the end, i was shocked to end up with the Yamaha TX-950. i cost me around $350 (retailed for $450 or so) and it has been a gem in all the years i've owned it. Besides sounding gorgeous, it pulled in stations that the others could not (incredible sensitivity) , and had many spiffy features that only a few of the above had portions of: - adjustable IF filter - mono/stereo switch - ultra fine tuning (down to 0.01 mhz!)...believe it or not, this really helped while living on cape cod. - blend circuitry - 2 antenna inputs (extremely useful) of course, as everyone probably knows (but is worth mentioning again), the ultimate fidelity of the tuner will come down to the source material (ie, low compression broadcasts) and antenna strength. i now live the SF Bay Area, and only a few stations are up to snuff at showing what my Yamaha tuner is capable of doing. with the right material, a tuner can be truly hi end. anyway, bottom line: i give a high recommendation to my Yamaha tuner (which i believe at some point ended up on Stereophile's recommended list...not that it matters though). i know of a few friends that managed to snag them on the used market and have been very pleased. my 2nd favorite tuner (which ran around $400...pity i don't recall the model number) was one made by Adcom...not as featureful and sensitive as the Yamaha, but first rate sound.... cheers, Derek |
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Tuner Recommendations
APS is owned and run by one of the brightest RF engineers in the
business, Ed Hanlon, and he's also got a stellar reputation as an honest and ethical businessperson. You really get what you pay for when Ed mods one of your tuners. He is a frequent poster to the FM Tuner group in my.yahoo.com. And what I really like about Ed is that if he thinks you happen to be an assh$*e, we will not do business nor sell you anything. Ed does some fantastic mods on certain Realistic (yes, you read Radio Shack) tuners and can make them outperform almost any new tuner you can purchase today. I think one of his favourite tuners he like to mod is the Sansui TU-919, but the last two have sold on eBay for $1005 and $920, unmodded, respectively, so the market for this model is a little inflated right now. Charles Epstein wrote: Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an interesting thread. Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even more confused than when I got this all in motion. I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/ They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though each "mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range. |
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Tuner Recommendations - LONG
Derek,
Many would argue it's impossible to be a real audiophile WITHOUT bias (pun intended) ;-) The FM Tuner Group site at http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/yamaha.html has a brief write up on the Yamaha TX-950 that you may or may not agree with. They do say it is a very sensitive tuner. Derek Fong wrote: great read on your shoot out. but it's a shame that you were biased against Yamaha. At least for my unit, the auto lock tuning feature is easy to disable. |
#28
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Tuner Recommendations
"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01... It is an interesting thread. As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great- about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to really image the sound from them. Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I am doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC 6B preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play a "flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as "rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have tried this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional" everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in this regard I have ever heard.) In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have systems that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end Magnums and was disappointed to find they did not. snip, not relevant to this post |
#29
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Tuner Recommendations
You've hit upon a truth and it should not be minimized. The advantage of
the FM tuner is the analog "noise" which I agree, the musicality of which, can be heightened by tubes. I've always used tubes in the playback cycle. I've heard CD's on the radio, preserved and recorded with a Nak on tape, which sounded better than listening to the same CD on a usual CD player. I've recorded digitally off the radio and it never matches the Nak deck. What we normally hear is analog not sampled. Note there are CD players that put that analog "noise" back in- some are spectacularly expensive but there are a couple that are real bargains. "Harry Lavo" wrote in message news:5ucqb.113283$Fm2.101428@attbi_s04... "Sam Stark" wrote in message news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01... It is an interesting thread. As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great- about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to really image the sound from them. Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I am doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC 6B preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play a "flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as "rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have tried this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional" everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in this regard I have ever heard.) In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have systems that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end Magnums and was disappointed to find they did not. snip, not relevant to this post |
#30
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Tuner Recommendations
Harry,
When I had the TX-11 on my premises the system was Conrad-Johnson pre-amp, VTL 75/75 in triode driving Quad ESL-63's. It wasn't a 2D system. It was a very 2D tuner. Now for a 3 dimensional tuner, which I believe created the effect out of whole cloth, try a Fisher 50B. Be sure to let it warm up an hour or it won't sound that good. I don't know, maybe as someone else mentioned, the TX-11's varied quite alot from sample to sample. If so you have gotten lucky with a good one. The Carver Tuners were pretty good RF machines if it sounds good too, you have a good item there. Dennis "Harry Lavo" wrote in message news:5u Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I am doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC 6B preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play a "flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as "rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have tried this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional" everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in this regard I have ever heard.) In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have systems that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end Magnums and was disappointed to find they did not. snip, not relevant to this post |
#31
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Tuner Recommendations
"Dennis Moore" wrote in message
news:Ldeqb.115589$e01.419905@attbi_s02... Harry, When I had the TX-11 on my premises the system was Conrad-Johnson pre-amp, VTL 75/75 in triode driving Quad ESL-63's. It wasn't a 2D system. It was a very 2D tuner. Now for a 3 dimensional tuner, which I believe created the effect out of whole cloth, try a Fisher 50B. Be sure to let it warm up an hour or it won't sound that good. I don't know, maybe as someone else mentioned, the TX-11's varied quite alot from sample to sample. If so you have gotten lucky with a good one. The Carver Tuners were pretty good RF machines if it sounds good too, you have a good item there. Dennis Perhaps you are right. In which case, my brother-in-law also got lucky because the TX-11 in his main system (Krell 300, Snell B's) also sounds very fine with a "they are here" presence. He's a big jazz fan and with a really good jazz recording being played by the station, the jazz is right there in the room. BTW, the Fisher FM50B is the precursor to the FM90B that I have raved about. The 90B and the 100C were the last tube tuners Fisher built. They had solid state power supplies but otherwise were tube...and they had extraordinary sound. Since demand has driven the prices of Marantz's and McIntoshes out of my range, I am thrilled that I can still find very finding Fisher gear at great prices. Some people like Scott (I have owned both tube and transistor in the past) but I prefer by Fishers by a large margin. |
#32
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Tuner Recommendations
While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on
www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications: -- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter Boards, doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality. -- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer "auto-mutes" when in stereo. -- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the tuner exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been modified and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and gloms on to the stronger station - no more! They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All things being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly, etc -- which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699 it's far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts? |
#33
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Tuner Recommendations
Charles,
Ed Hanlon at APS is one of the top tuner techs and RF engineers in the world. If it were me, I'd buy the Sansui T-80 or the Sansui T-60 AM/FM Stereo Tuner he has modified and selling for $199.95 if budget is important. One thing Ed does that is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is he individually measures each and every ceramic filter he puts in his modded tuners. Very few tuner techs do this as it is time consuming, requires expensive measurement equipment, and most modders just accept their filter supplier's word their filters meet factory specs. The ugly truth is that many ceramic filters DO NOT MEET factory specs, and Ed measures each and every filter that goes into a tuner he works on so all of the filters will be matched for optimal performance. Matching the bandwidth of the filter is critical, so if you are putting in say, narrow bandwidth 150kHz filters, they need to be matched pairs so the bandwidth on both filters is 150kHz and not 130kHz on one filter and 180kHz on the other filter. Mismatched filters really screw up the FM sound quality. So much of what you are paying for with Ed's mods is his expertise and care in matching the components so you get a quality product and not just a tuner some hack had supposedly "modded." And I am not a relative of nor have any financial interest in Ed's business: I just know he's been around for a long time and has a stellar reputation in the tuner and antenna business. Finally, you haven't said anything about the FM environment you're going to be listening in. Your FM environment should dictate what kind of tuner you're going to get. First and foremost, you absolutely MUST install an outdoor antenna with a rotor if you are going to get a quality signal to your tuner (or hang one with fishing line from your ceiling in a room in your home - don't laugh, some people really do this). The $25 Radio Shack FM-only antenna is not a bad way to begin, with a Radio Shack rotor if you're on a budget. If you can spend about $80 plus UPS shipping for an antenna, then the Wineguard HD-6065 is an excellent FM-only antenna. And then there's the APS-9 and the APS-13 if you want top of the line FM-only antennae. Next, if most of your stations are local and broadcast strong signals, and are not closely spaced together, the Sansui T-60 or T-80 will work great for you. OTOH, if you need to listen to distant stations or stations that are next to each other on the dial (say 91.5 and 91.7), then you need a tuner with good sensitivity and selectivity. Here, the Sansui TU-717 would be the one to get, even though it's way more than you want to spend. Yes, ours is an expensive hobby, but there's still real magic and great sound quality in the airwaves, for free, if you've got access to a good public radio station and a good tuner and outdoor antenna. Let us know what you decide. Tim Britt Charles Epstein wrote: While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications: -- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter Boards, doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality. -- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer "auto-mutes" when in stereo. -- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the tuner exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been modified and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and gloms on to the stronger station - no more! They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All things being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly, etc -- which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699 it's far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts? |
#34
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Tuner Recommendations
Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25 miles
north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR station and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not sure I need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed indoor antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor variety (?) Charles. "Tim Britt" wrote in message news:bOkqb.85208$mZ5.588564@attbi_s54... Charles, Ed Hanlon at APS is one of the top tuner techs and RF engineers in the world. If it were me, I'd buy the Sansui T-80 or the Sansui T-60 AM/FM Stereo Tuner he has modified and selling for $199.95 if budget is important. One thing Ed does that is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is he individually measures each and every ceramic filter he puts in his modded tuners. Very few tuner techs do this as it is time consuming, requires expensive measurement equipment, and most modders just accept their filter supplier's word their filters meet factory specs. The ugly truth is that many ceramic filters DO NOT MEET factory specs, and Ed measures each and every filter that goes into a tuner he works on so all of the filters will be matched for optimal performance. Matching the bandwidth of the filter is critical, so if you are putting in say, narrow bandwidth 150kHz filters, they need to be matched pairs so the bandwidth on both filters is 150kHz and not 130kHz on one filter and 180kHz on the other filter. Mismatched filters really screw up the FM sound quality. So much of what you are paying for with Ed's mods is his expertise and care in matching the components so you get a quality product and not just a tuner some hack had supposedly "modded." And I am not a relative of nor have any financial interest in Ed's business: I just know he's been around for a long time and has a stellar reputation in the tuner and antenna business. Finally, you haven't said anything about the FM environment you're going to be listening in. Your FM environment should dictate what kind of tuner you're going to get. First and foremost, you absolutely MUST install an outdoor antenna with a rotor if you are going to get a quality signal to your tuner (or hang one with fishing line from your ceiling in a room in your home - don't laugh, some people really do this). The $25 Radio Shack FM-only antenna is not a bad way to begin, with a Radio Shack rotor if you're on a budget. If you can spend about $80 plus UPS shipping for an antenna, then the Wineguard HD-6065 is an excellent FM-only antenna. And then there's the APS-9 and the APS-13 if you want top of the line FM-only antennae. Next, if most of your stations are local and broadcast strong signals, and are not closely spaced together, the Sansui T-60 or T-80 will work great for you. OTOH, if you need to listen to distant stations or stations that are next to each other on the dial (say 91.5 and 91.7), then you need a tuner with good sensitivity and selectivity. Here, the Sansui TU-717 would be the one to get, even though it's way more than you want to spend. Yes, ours is an expensive hobby, but there's still real magic and great sound quality in the airwaves, for free, if you've got access to a good public radio station and a good tuner and outdoor antenna. Let us know what you decide. Tim Britt Charles Epstein wrote: While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications: -- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter Boards, doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality. -- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer "auto-mutes" when in stereo. -- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the tuner exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been modified and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and gloms on to the stronger station - no more! They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All things being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly, etc -- which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699 it's far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts? |
#35
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Tuner Recommendations
"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:XBtqb.129677$Tr4.335689@attbi_s03... Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25 miles north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR station and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not sure I need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed indoor antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor variety (?) Charles. Actually, with stations that close in a flat state like Florida, you can easily get buy with a $3 folded dipole from your radio shack. Get a thin strip of wood, tack the "arms" of the dipole to the wood, and experiment with orientation to find the best signal. Once found, try to find a place to hide it (preferably up high behind a bookcase or something) and you are set. Or you can find other less obtrusive ways to mount it...a clear 300ohm cable dipole thumbtacked up against a top molding is not too obtrusive. On the other hand, if you want to find that jazz station, follow Ed's advice and get one of the ARS antennas and a good roof mount and rotor....you should be able to pull in more than seventy-five miles...much further under some weather conditions. And if you really want to DX, you can buy two antennas, mount them one above the other about a quarter wavelength apart (about 11 ft if I remember correctly) and go to it. I did this back in the early seventies from a house in a shallow valley in North Stamford, CT. and easily picked up Albany 130 miles to the northwest and Philadelphia more than 150 miles to the southwest. In stereo and no noise. God, how I wished I had lived atop of the hill rather than in the valley. not relevant to this discussion |
#36
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Tuner Recommendations
A thought: if a modified vintage tuner could pull in vintage broadcasts from
the 70s, price would be no object. How I miss the long, pregnant pauses after listening to a side of Gentle Giant's latest...followed by a dramatic exhale, as though the deejay just let out a cloud bank of bong smoke. Ah. Those were the days. "Harry Lavo" wrote in message news:wMuqb.90681$mZ5.599557@attbi_s54... "Charles Epstein" wrote in message news:XBtqb.129677$Tr4.335689@attbi_s03... Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25 miles north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR station and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not sure I need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed indoor antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor variety (?) Charles. Actually, with stations that close in a flat state like Florida, you can easily get buy with a $3 folded dipole from your radio shack. Get a thin strip of wood, tack the "arms" of the dipole to the wood, and experiment with orientation to find the best signal. Once found, try to find a place to hide it (preferably up high behind a bookcase or something) and you are set. Or you can find other less obtrusive ways to mount it...a clear 300ohm cable dipole thumbtacked up against a top molding is not too obtrusive. On the other hand, if you want to find that jazz station, follow Ed's advice and get one of the ARS antennas and a good roof mount and rotor....you should be able to pull in more than seventy-five miles...much further under some weather conditions. And if you really want to DX, you can buy two antennas, mount them one above the other about a quarter wavelength apart (about 11 ft if I remember correctly) and go to it. I did this back in the early seventies from a house in a shallow valley in North Stamford, CT. and easily picked up Albany 130 miles to the northwest and Philadelphia more than 150 miles to the southwest. In stereo and no noise. God, how I wished I had lived atop of the hill rather than in the valley. not relevant to this discussion |
#37
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Tuner Recommendations
"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:q7vqb.128866$HS4.1023310@attbi_s01... A thought: if a modified vintage tuner could pull in vintage broadcasts from the 70s, price would be no object. How I miss the long, pregnant pauses after listening to a side of Gentle Giant's latest...followed by a dramatic exhale, as though the deejay just let out a cloud bank of bong smoke. Ah. Those were the days. Bigggg Smiiiiiiillee! snip, not relevant |
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