I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys. For Example; I have a pretty good 7 band
EQ in PTLE, and it would be helpful to know
what frequencies to notch for a quick starting place if a song was in
the key A or C or whatever.

In article .com,
meandeanmachine says...

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys. For Example; I have a pretty good 7 band
EQ in PTLE, and it would be helpful to know
what frequencies to notch for a quick starting place if a song was in
the key A or C or whatever.


Your question reveals one of the fundamental flaws in the
protools concept. chuckle

meandeanmachine wrote:
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys.

.... Why? The purpose of EQ is to compensate for weaknesses in the
transducers (mike, speakers), the room, or in the
performers/instruments. Those weaknesses don't shift by which key folks
are performing in...

Hey buddy,
My suggestion is:
DON'T DO IT!! There's alot of bull**** out there
about 'set' EQ's.. give the song what it needs
ONLY what it Needs.
Don't use any EQ - if that's what it NEEDS.

Sorry, I'm passionate about this. - 'Been doing
music for a long time. (30 yrs.)

If you get the mic right & the mic pre right... you
should have no worries... except unless the
source sucks.. And you can't make a silk purse
out of a sow's ear.

good luck,
John

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. The EQ and the key of
the song are totally unrelated entities. They're like 'apples' and
'yes'. In a live situation, if you are just on the edge of feedback at
a certain frequency and then the band plays a song in the key that
coresponds to that frequency then you can get some nasty feedback, but
that's all I can think of. If you're trying to notch out notes that
aren't in the key, then ok I guess but I doubt it. As far as I know
(being a professional musician), every key has basically the same
'sound' as far as frequencies are concerned. Many people believe that
certain keys have slightly different moods, like G (major) is happy and
Eb (major) is more mellow, but I don't believe that can be created or
changed using an EQ. But, this is just my two cents.

-steve

In article .com writes:

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys. For Example; I have a pretty good 7 band
EQ in PTLE, and it would be helpful to know
what frequencies to notch for a quick starting place if a song was in
the key A or C or whatever.

Crane Song has an equalizer called Ibis that has the knobs marked in
musical notes rather than frequency. There's a chart on the web page
that might be what you're asking for:

http://www.cranesong.com/IBIS%20FREQUENCY%20CHART.html

However, I don't see what you plan to do with an equalizer, knowing
what key a song is in. If you have a note that sticks out, you might
want to try to knock it down a bit, but you'll need an equalizer with
very good resolution.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Thanks for the reply Mike, I knew if anyone here could figure out what
the hell I was talking about it would be you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not for overdoing EQ either, but in some cases like with a lot of
mids I want to notch out a spot for all the parts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I know something of music theory I don't know much
about the basic physics.

Say a song is in the key of A. I know A on a guitar is 440 vps for the
open string.

Say I had an acousic kick drum, and I might want to sweeten it to the
key of the song...
perhaps I could cut a bit across the board and then do slight + notches
at 55, 110, 220, 440
880 etc. / a chart might be helpful to also throw in some Maj 3rd,
perf 5th overtones etc...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I know all about trusing my ear, and that is the bottom line.
Notwithstanding that
a chart reference to quickly accentuate fundamentals and overtones
would be a great asset as a fast track starting point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would never do what your discussing, but I think you should try it.
Depending on the method of the recording, the key of the song
absolutely will affect the sound you've recorded. For instance, if you
record a guitar with room mics, the room will resonate differently
withe certain frequencies and of course the key will determine what
frequencies you hit and hit most often.

I htink ther's a good chance that the mid frequency ou cut from teh
room will be influcned a bit by the key.

Still, if you ahve every note played translated to a frequency on a
chart infront, I still don't know how you'd know what to boost or cut.
Even if there was a book saying alwyas cut the fundamental or an octave
up, how would you know how much to cut? How do you know that your room
will resonate in a way that the person who wrote the book expects? How
do you know that their taste in results will match yours?

I htink it would be a great excercise to try ebcuase you never know
what you'll learn, but I think iwhat you will probably learn is that
you've got to EQ by ear, not by eye.

By the way Mike, I got that chart and printed it out.
You remain "The Man"
Dean

In article .com writes:

Say a song is in the key of A. I know A on a guitar is 440 vps for the
open string.

Say I had an acousic kick drum, and I might want to sweeten it to the
key of the song...
perhaps I could cut a bit across the board and then do slight + notches
at 55, 110, 220, 440
880 etc. / a chart might be helpful to also throw in some Maj 3rd,
perf 5th overtones etc...

Well, I guess you could try, but it doesn't really work that way.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

meandeanmachine wrote:
Thanks for the reply Mike, I knew if anyone here could figure out
what
the hell I was talking about it would be you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
I am not for overdoing EQ either, but in some cases like with a lot
of
mids I want to notch out a spot for all the parts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
Although I know something of music theory I don't know much
about the basic physics.

Say a song is in the key of A. I know A on a guitar is 440 vps for
the
open string.

Say I had an acousic kick drum, and I might want to sweeten it to
the
key of the song...
perhaps I could cut a bit across the board and then do slight +
notches at 55, 110, 220, 440
880 etc. / a chart might be helpful to also throw in some Maj 3rd,
perf 5th overtones etc...

Equalization is generally not done in bands that narrow. It's done in
ways that make the difference between various tunings for A
immaterial.

"elecbanana" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm not quite sure I understand your question. The EQ and the key of
the song are totally unrelated entities. They're like 'apples' and
'yes'.

Unfortunately, 'apples' and 'Yes' are not exactly unrelated entities at all,
as witnessed by these lyrics from "Circus of Heaven" from Yes' (possibly
worst album) "Tormato":

"On the dreamy ground we walked upon
I turned to my son and said
'Was that something beautiful, amazing, wonderful, extraordinary beautiful?'
'Oh! it was OK!! But there were no clowns, no tigers, lions or bears,
candy-floss, toffee apples, no clowns.' "


Leave it to Jon Anderson, huh?

Neil Henderson

Someone correct me if I am wrong but...

open A string on the guitar is 220 cps.

The chart from CraneSong is not super accurate but close.

meandeanmachine wrote:
By the way Mike, I got that chart and printed it out.
You remain "The Man"
Dean

Joe Boerst wrote:
Someone correct me if I am wrong but...

open A string on the guitar is 220 cps.

If you aren't Gabby Pahunui.

The chart from CraneSong is not super accurate but close.

We still have an organ in town with A=335. It's no fun for accompanists
who not only have to retune but have to transpose.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Here is a nice chart you can use as a reference :
http://www.drewdaniels.com/FREQ.pdf

And if you have Microsoft Excel you can download his spreadsheet and enter
your own tuning reference frequency :
http://www.drewdaniels.com/freq.xls

There are some other interesting links on Drew's site too :
http://www.drewdaniels.com/

--
John L Rice


"meandeanmachine" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys. For Example; I have a pretty good 7 band
EQ in PTLE, and it would be helpful to know
what frequencies to notch for a quick starting place if a song was in
the key A or C or whatever.

John wrote:

If you get the mic right & the mic pre right... you
should have no worries... except unless the
source sucks.. And you can't make a silk purse
out of a sow's ear.

Especially if the sow's ear is playing in the wrong key! WHich is why
there are kazoos: they can play between the keys.

--
ha

Joe Boerst wrote:

Someone correct me if I am wrong but...

OK

open A string on the guitar is 220 cps.

Assuming standard tuning - high E string, fifth fret = A440; G string,
second fret = 220; open A string = 110.

All in theory, of course. Much depends on the guitar, the strings, and
the player.

--
ha

meandeanmachine wrote:

Say I had an acousic kick drum, and I might want to sweeten it to
the
key of the song...
perhaps I could cut a bit across the board and then do slight +
notches
at 55, 110, 220, 440
880 etc. / a chart might be helpful to also throw in some Maj 3rd,
perf 5th overtones etc...

A drum head (using your example) is a resonant source.
It's just not perfectly resonant.
EQ will not change the resonant frequency.
The drum needs tuned to A if you want it to
harmonize in A. Try to tune it to 55.
Only then will the EQ you are attempting
do any good.

good luck
rd

This begs the question regarding the crane Eq module.

Why does it give you the ability to adjust EQ curves to different keys
if there is no co relation (apples and oranges). Maybe it is a
marketing hoax? I think not.

Of course most eq tools will not allow you to be so specific in
frequencies to boost or cut. But especially on the low to mid end you
have an opportunity to zone into a sweet spot that is related to the
key. This is where the body of most tones reside. If I have a low end
that
I can notch between 40hz and 120, I would have a clue that a good place
to listen to would be around 55hz if it is the key of A and multiple up
the line.

I would defer to the notion that the ear is the arbitrator, but why not
apply
some science to the art? I am not going to get lost in defining every
track
with notch keyed EQs, but it is something to consider on specific
instruments.

Could it be possible the Crane eq is labeled as such because the
user might not know the frequency but he can find the note on a
keyboard or guitar to help him eq whatever it is he's trying to do?
This original posted question reminded me of the studio Steve
Miller built in the 70's that had moving walls that allowed them to
"tune" the room to the key the song was in.

"This original posted question reminded me of the studio Steve
Miller built in the 70's that had moving walls that allowed them to
"tune" the room to the key the song was in. "

That's pretty wild. Was it like one wall they could move in and out to
adjust to the key?

Now that's a hell of a chart.
The stuff about meters is greek to me though.
Thanks. Dean

meandeanmachine wrote:
"This original posted question reminded me of the studio Steve
Miller built in the 70's that had moving walls that allowed them to
"tune" the room to the key the song was in. "

That's pretty wild. Was it like one wall they could move in and out
to
adjust to the key?

That's hardly wild in this day and age. I know of two recital halls in
this metro area that have adjustable acoustics. There are probably
more. One is Varner Hall and is at least a decade old, and the other
is in the new addition to Orchestra Hall.

meandeanmachine wrote:
This begs the question regarding the crane Eq module.

Why does it give you the ability to adjust EQ curves to different keys
if there is no co relation (apples and oranges). Maybe it is a
marketing hoax? I think not.

It doesn't. It allows you to adjust them to different NOTES.

You can think of a pure tone as either having a frequency or a pitch...
they are two different ways of thinking about the same thing in that
case. A complex note will have one pitch and several different
frequency components.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

That's pretty wild. Was it like one wall they could move in and out
to adjust to the key?

I don't recall the exact details, but one moving wall would be the
simplest. I can only imagine the hydraulic controls for that one, A,
B, C#, Gb...

Joe Kesselman wrote:
meandeanmachine wrote:
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a chart that is a
correlation
of EQ settings to song Keys.

... Why? The purpose of EQ is to compensate for weaknesses in the
transducers (mike, speakers), the room, or in the
performers/instruments. Those weaknesses don't shift by which key
folks
are performing in...

Has anyone experienced this situation: say you're running sound at a
square dance with an oldtime band and the fiddler is possibly
crosstuned in A, or is just leaning extra hard on the open string drone
double stop, and it starts sounding like all you're hearing is that
note building up, with help of course from the guitar and banjo? I
have. A single tune can go on for quite a while too. This is one place
where I sometimes use EQ in the manner the OP suggests - to notch out a
pitch in the mix that is represented in excess by the band.

Albert

"meandeanmachine" wrote in message
ups.com...
Now that's a hell of a chart.
The stuff about meters is greek to me though.
Thanks. Dean


I believe the meters/feet etc refers to the length of one complete wave at
that frequency. Most likely valuable info for tuning a room or constructing
speaker cabinets and musical instruments.

--
John L Rice

In article . com,
"Albert" wrote:

Has anyone experienced this situation: say you're running sound at a
square dance with an oldtime band and the fiddler is possibly
crosstuned in A, or is just leaning extra hard on the open string drone
double stop, and it starts sounding like all you're hearing is that
note building up, with help of course from the guitar and banjo? I
have. A single tune can go on for quite a while too. This is one place
where I sometimes use EQ in the manner the OP suggests - to notch out a
pitch in the mix that is represented in excess by the band.

Yeah, my double bass has a resonant frequency on the open A string. That
one note can build and is louder than any others on the instrument.

"It doesn't. It allows you to adjust them to different NOTES.

You can think of a pure tone as either having a frequency or a pitch...

they are two different ways of thinking about the same thing in that
case. A complex note will have one pitch and several different
frequency components.
--scott "

Without a doubt. I guess the application would be for working on
individual
drums/cymbals, or as someone ointed out to pull down a note that is
always sticking out (probably a lot easier applying gain reduction in
daw).

I am thinking though; eq dialed into a key with tonic a perf 4th a
perf 5th maybe a maj 3rd or minor 3rd harmonic (major or minor keyed
song) could give an optimal resonance throughout the scale.

I don't think an aural exciter works on this principal ...something
about even harmonics, but maybe there is another rack device or
software plug in that might work on this concept. If not, then it is
something to be considered by an entrepreneur. Could be a great plug
in.
Dean

Here's just another thing to consider. Instruments are played certain
ways because of the frequency patterns they emit. Just one very basic
example of this is that there are more guitar solos than non-slapped
bass solos. Bass sounds kind of dumb in that function, due to the
frequencies is uses. When dealing with people who just kind of know
how to play their instruments you may try the tweaking, but top-notch
professionals have adapted to the frequency content of their
instrument. For example, guitarists will pluck their strings at
different distances away from the bridge to control how strong the
upper harmonics are. Also, pianists (at least jazz pianists) voice
their chords in such a way that there is enough harmonic identity
without bombarding the listener with the tonic of the key (the latter
could also be known as power chords). If there's too much 'A' in an A
chord, it sounds lame, but if not even the bass player is playing an A,
it can sometimes get confusing as to what chord is actually going on.
This is responsible for many scary moments at jazz shows. Anyway, I
know this isn't really where you guys were taking this, but it may be
something to think about.

-steve

"Also, pianists (at least jazz pianists) voice
their chords in such a way that there is enough harmonic identity
without bombarding the listener with the tonic of the key (the latter
could also be known as power chords). If there's too much 'A' in an A
chord, it sounds lame, but if not even the bass player is playing an A,

it can sometimes get confusing as to what chord is actually going on.
This is responsible for many scary moments at jazz shows. Anyway, I
know this isn't really where you guys were taking this, but it may be
something to think about.
-steve "

I see what you are saying. Voicing considerations are often overlooked
by a lot of "musicians". Amazing the number of songs in which the bass
just parallels the roots of the chords. I had a music teacher (Juliard
educated) who said it didn't make much sense to him paying two players
to play the same line.

Little comments like that sick with you.