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  #81   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?


In article Iug9c.105008$1p.1511131@attbi_s54 writes:

I think the reason we see so many
"what's the best" questions is for this exact reason. Sometimes people don't
know what sounds best. That's a personal knowledge base you have build up
yourself BY MAKING WRONG CHOICES. Brighter/louder usually wins out to novice
ears. But that is seldom the BEST choice.


I was trying to be polite, but it's the truth. The other truth (which
leads to the same "what's the best?" question) is that while there are
more audio dealers with showrooms today than there were 20 years ago,
the number (and geography) hasn't increased nearly as fast as the
number of buyers of that equipment. Unless you live in a larger city,
you won't be able to vist a dealer who can set up equipment you might
want to audition. How many showrooms can set you up with an RNMP, an
ART, a Grace, and maybe a used Peavey to compare? So a great number of
people want to be able to buy with reasonable confidence based on the
experience of others, without making listening decisions themselves. I
can understand that - well, I can't understand why people would put
themselves in that position, but I understand that a lot of people do.

One of the problems is that beginners need to make A/B/C comparisons
in order to make decisions. They aren't tuned in to what just sounds
good and they don't yet know that when they hear it. So even if they
mail-order one mic preamp, play with it at home, and don't hear any
problems, they still have some doubts as to whether there might be
another choice in their price range that would be better. My take on
this is that it shouldn't matter - that "good enough for me" is good
enough until your ears get bettter.

But it's hard to accept that. Here we have a case where someone said
that he found that the ART was good enough for his application, and a
whole bunch of people telling him that he could do better. I don't
know what more to say.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #82   Report Post  
agent86
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Powell wrote:


"hank alrich" wrote


Have you used an FMR RNP?

No, but I went to the web site and read about the product.
The manufacture states this about the RNP, "WHAT
SUCKS Now I will violate a very important marketing rule
by telling you what I think sucks about the RNP. Why?
Because nothing is perfect and compromises always
have to be made."... I have claimed nothing different.

After reading the product information it doesn’t appear
to be a good candidate for studio use. If used for this
purpose one would need a roll of duck tape to hold it
down in an equipment rack. Weak power supply. It also
only has three LED lights to represent the entire audio
spectrum, that not very useful.



Considering that the GML 8302/8304 have but a single LET per channel, your
logic would seem to indicate that the RNP must be 3 times as good as the
GML.


  #83   Report Post  
Powell
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?


"hank alrich" wrote

Have you tried one? If it's not equal in some specifications
to pres that cost four or more times what it costs,

Also please site specific makes and models of mic.
pre-amps (" four times the price") that the RNP blows
out of the water, which you personal have working
experience with?


You obviously have no professional or high quality
audio experience, you think you can tell what somethng
sounds like by seading specs sheets, and you have not
tried an FMR RNP.

"cost four or more times what it costs"... so you really
have no idea (empirical experience) what is better at
2X, 3X, or 4X. So why make that claim, mr.
Self-importance?

How would you know? What microphone pre-amp/s do
you own that you consider *state of the art*?


If you'd been here more than a day or two you'd already
know the answer to your ignorant question. Shoot yourself
in the other foot now and proclaim your marksmanship.

"Shoot yourself in the other foot now"... hehehe, oh right.
Were are the name of manufactures and specific models
costing four times the expense of the PNR that do
worse? It's you claim, sugar pants.





  #84   Report Post  
 
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Then again, I know folks who like to run transformerless preamps into
clipping on kick drum tracks to get a more clicky sort of sound.


They could just drop a calve smaple into it, combine to taste.


Are you talking about bovine calves or lower-part-of-the-leg calves g

--

Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock
http://www.saqqararecords.com



  #85   Report Post  
agent86
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Mike Rivers wrote:


One of the problems is that beginners need to make A/B/C comparisons
in order to make decisions. They aren't tuned in to what just sounds
good and they don't yet know that when they hear it. So even if they
mail-order one mic preamp, play with it at home, and don't hear any
problems, they still have some doubts as to whether there might be
another choice in their price range that would be better. My take on
this is that it shouldn't matter - that "good enough for me" is good
enough until your ears get bettter.


Yes, Yes, YES! Sometimes "good enough" really is good enough. That's why
pros at the very top of the field still use & recommend SM57s after all
these years.


But it's hard to accept that. Here we have a case where someone said
that he found that the ART was good enough for his application, and a
whole bunch of people telling him that he could do better. I don't
know what more to say.


I don't think he's getting slammed for saying the ART was good enough for
HIS application. He's getting slammed for trying to pass himself off as an
expert & for touting the ART preamp to the original poster as if it were
truly a piece of pro gear. Being rude to Scott surely didn't win him any
friends either. I must say, Scott has shown a lot of class &
professionalism by simply ignoring him once he had shown himself to be a
moron.




  #86   Report Post  
 
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"Powell" wrote in message
Were are the name of manufactures and specific models
costing four times the expense of the PNR that do
worse? It's you claim, sugar pants.


PNR? That must be one of those military designations for that particular
device... Preamp, Nice, Really (1 ea.).


--

Neil Henderson
Progressive Rock
http://www.saqqararecords.com




  #87   Report Post  
Powell
 
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"Monte P McGuire" wrote


After reading the product information it doesn’t appear
to be a good candidate for studio use. If used for this
purpose one would need a roll of duck tape to hold it
down in an equipment rack. Weak power supply. It also
only has three LED lights to represent the entire audio
spectrum, that not very useful. The incomplete
specification sheet is particularly troubling, too.


The important thing you missed was how the RNP sounds.
That's because you've never tried to use one in a real session.
Why not comment after you've used one.

I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


All A/C current is dirty. The only real question is how much and
how audible is it. Running the mic pre-amp and computer, while
recording, through a power conditioner I can see that the
noise floor drops 4-7 dB on the meter while idling. The audio
effect is a blacker/quieter background.


OK, you're an idiot. You're capable of self deception too.

What empirical experiences do you have with power
conditioners that lead you to that conclusion... none?
You just know, right?


It would truly be
“straight wire with gain.” None of the sited manufactures
are working the on bleeding edge of technology.


Have you looked at the Gordon preamp? That design is
completely and radically different than anything I've seen
before and is built with some extremely high quality parts.

Gordon is a new name for me. I found this:
http://www.proaudioreview.com/par/ju...n_micpre.shtml

The Gordon Instrument web site provides this
technical information http://www.gordonaudio.com/specs.htm


Why must you comment on things that you know
nothing about?

Why not, you just did... power line conditioners.


In a
similar technology like phono pre-amps, for example, one
has to invest $2-10 K per channel to reach that level.
There is no market place in the sound recording industry
for that kind of assault.


Honestly, look inside of the Gordon preamp and tell me that
the parts cost for that box isn't at least $1500 a channel. I don't
know how or why that guy can sell the preamp for as little as
he does.

The Gordon Instrument web site provides this
technical information http://www.gordonaudio.com/specs.htm


Would it make you happier if he charged $20K for it instead? What
sort of folks are supposed to pay $10K a channel for a mike preamp?

No, I wouldn't like to pay "$20K", OTOH, one usually
gets what they pay for (no free lunch).


And heck, aren't you the guy who's happy with a $50/channel toy
preamp?

What are you talking about "$50/channel"... it is a typo
for $250? I’m not committed to any particular product.


How can you have it both ways? Any why haven't you spent
real money for a real preamp?

I'm all ears... waiting for enlightment.







  #88   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Powell"
writes:

How would you know? What microphone pre-amp/s do
you own that you consider *state of the art*?


I cant answer for Hank but in my case I own Neve, Manley, Grace, Great River
and quite a few other makes as well. The RNP is right up there with any of them
IMO and it gets daily use in my place.

One thing you dont seem to understand is that there is no completely uncolored
preamp, least of all the ART! The most neutral pre I own is probably the Great
River which is nearly as transparent as the Millenia HV3 (considered my many to
be as neutral a pre as there is).

Rather than dissing something you've never heard you ought to be happy that
someone makes a good pre for this kind of money.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #89   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Powell"
writes:

"Garthrr" wrote



This is how you judge the efficacy of equipment?
I think there are better ways to do it. Try listening.
I have both the RNP and the ART PRO MPA. the
is very little comparison and its not favorable to the
ART.


That's an opinion you get to have.


As do many others who have actually heard the two pieces in question.
Apparently you have not so your ignorance is understandable.


Two more errors: First, it's "duct" tape, not
"duck" tape. Its used for taping heat ducts.



For your lacking education: "Is it Duct or Duck?
We don't want you to be confused, so we will
explain. The first name for Duct Tape was DUCK.
During World War II the U.S. Military needed a
waterproof tape to keep the moisture out of
ammunition cases. So, they enlisted the Johnson
and Johnson Permacel Division to manufacture
the tape. Because it was waterproof, everyone
referred to it as "duck" tape (like water off a
duck's back).


I had not heard that. Thanks for the info.


Secondly, the RNP can be easily mounted to a
UTR1 rack tray which costs $20. I have three
of them in one rack space.


That's nice.


Yes it is. My racks are very crowded and any way to cram more functionality
into the available space is much appreciated. But the main point that you seem
so illogically resistant to is that the RNP is an extraordinarily good piece of
kit at an astonishing price. Your prejidice is really only hurting you. Have
fun with your ART.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #90   Report Post  
Powell
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?


"Garthrr" wrote

This is how you judge the efficacy of equipment?
I think there are better ways to do it. Try listening.
I have both the RNP and the ART PRO MPA. the
is very little comparison and its not favorable to the
ART.


That's an opinion you get to have.


As do many others who have actually heard the two
pieces in question. Apparently you have not so your
ignorance is understandable.

So, let me see if I’m have the right message here.
ART manufactures only junk and they have no market
share in comparison to FMR, and everyone knows
this?







  #91   Report Post  
Ricky W. Hunt
 
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1080403010k@trad...


One of the problems is that beginners need to make A/B/C comparisons
in order to make decisions. They aren't tuned in to what just sounds
good and they don't yet know that when they hear it.


That's about the best I've ever heard it put.


  #94   Report Post  
Powell
 
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"Garthrr" wrote

How would you know? What microphone pre-amp/s do
you own that you consider *state of the art*?


I cant answer for Hank but in my case I own Neve, Manley,
Grace, Great River and quite a few other makes as well.
The RNP is right up there with any of them IMO and it gets
daily use in my place.

So, in other words Neve, Manley, Grace, Great River are
poor price performers in comparison, right? I’m not
paying for superior performance across the board but
only slight nuances.


One thing you dont seem to understand is that there is
no completely uncolored preamp, least of all the ART!

No, I get that.


The most neutral pre I own is probably the Great River
which is nearly as transparent as the Millenia HV3 (considered
my many to be as neutral a pre as there is).

But you've indicated that RNP is at the same price
performance level.


Rather than dissing something you've never heard
you ought to be happy that someone makes a good
pre for this kind of money.

Sorry, I don't buy the "it has no competition" mantra.

We wouldn’t be having this conversation if the high end
companies I’m most familiar with built mic.
Pre-amps... I would have purchased one from them.
Instead, I find an niche market in an industry of largely
shoddy products. Why is that? Why don’t major
manufactures enter this market. I don’t know the
answer but would suspect that it’s either profit related
or an uneducated buyer demographic (no money).





  #95   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Powell"
writes:

So, let me see if Im have the right message here.
ART manufactures only junk and they have no market
share in comparison to FMR, and everyone knows
this?


Are you serious?? ART probably has many times the market share that FMR (RNP
manufacturer) has. So what? FMR is a tiny micro business. Surely you arent
implying any relationship between market share and quality. I give even you
more credit than that. There's probably an inverse relationship if one at all.
McDonalds has a big marketshare. Do they make high quality food?

Look, its very simple--The RNP is a very good sounding piece. Its made by a guy
who does good work and is a nice guy. You ought to be supporting him if you
care about good gear and good prices.
The ART is not in the same league soundwise. I am not aware of anything ART
makes that is of particularly high quality. I have a PRO VLA compressor that I
like on some stuff but its certainly not an uncolored or clean sounding piece.
Its also probably the best thing they make.

And yes, most of us already know this stuff.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney


  #96   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Powell"
writes:

So, in other words Neve, Manley, Grace, Great River are
poor price performers in comparison, right? Im not
paying for superior performance across the board but
only slight nuances.


The Manley costs about $2500, The Grace and Great River are somewhere in the
same ballpark pricewise I think. The RNP costs $500. There are times when I
prefer the RNP to any of the others. Sometimes I like the Grace. It depends on
the individual app. They all sound a little different but all very good.
The RNP has some price-related drawbacks: It has stepped gain in 6dB
increments, its noise floor is higher than the Grace although still
respectable, it has a wallwart power supply (I only refer to the inconvenience
of the wallwart, not to any deficiency in its operation.) Those are the
trade-offs that are made to keep the price low. I have no problem with that.


The most neutral pre I own is probably the Great River
which is nearly as transparent as the Millenia HV3 (considered
my many to be as neutral a pre as there is).


But you've indicated that RNP is at the same price
performance level.


No, I didnt. The Great River costs about 4 times as much. It has a slightly
lower noise floor than the RNP. Its more neutral souinding I think. Sound
quality-wise they are peers IMO.


Rather than dissing something you've never heard
you ought to be happy that someone makes a good
pre for this kind of money.


Sorry, I don't buy the "it has no competition" mantra.


Well, I sure cant think of any. And I'm aware of most of the products out there
right now. For instance, I have a Presonus MP20 (which kicks the ART's ass BTW)
which cost about $450 as I recall and it doesnt hold a candle to the RNP.

We wouldnt be having this conversation if the high end
companies Im most familiar with built mic.
Pre-amps...


Who are you thinking of?

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #97   Report Post  
Steve King
 
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"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Monte P McGuire" wrote

Snip

The important thing you missed was how the RNP sounds.
That's because you've never tried to use one in a real session.
Why not comment after you've used one.


To which the idiot replied...

I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


Right. You have already indicated that crap is just right for you. Sorry.
Forgot that for a moment.

Steve King




  #98   Report Post  
Monte P McGuire
 
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In article ,
Powell wrote:

"Monte P McGuire" wrote

Powell wrote:
After reading the product information it doesn’t appear
to be a good candidate for studio use. If used for this
purpose one would need a roll of duck tape to hold it
down in an equipment rack. Weak power supply. It also
only has three LED lights to represent the entire audio
spectrum, that not very useful. The incomplete
specification sheet is particularly troubling, too.


The important thing you missed was how the RNP sounds.
That's because you've never tried to use one in a real session.
Why not comment after you've used one.

I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


....but yet you make this grand pronouncement that a particular device
isn't suitable for studio use, because it doesn't have a complete spec
sheet, the chassis is too small and it doesn't have enough LEDs.

I guess that sort of puts your opinions as to the 'studio worthiness'
of a piece of gear into perspective.

All A/C current is dirty. The only real question is how much and
how audible is it. Running the mic pre-amp and computer, while
recording, through a power conditioner I can see that the
noise floor drops 4-7 dB on the meter while idling. The audio
effect is a blacker/quieter background.


OK, you're an idiot. You're capable of self deception too.

What empirical experiences do you have with power
conditioners that lead you to that conclusion... none?
You just know, right?


Yes, I do know. I have done a lot of amplifier design and testing
using an Audio Precision test set and I theoretically and practically
know of nothing that could be done to any sort of power supply, unless
it was broken to start with, that will give you 4 to 7dB less noise
out of an amplifier. Forget about power conditioners, I'm talking
complete supply redesign, which I have done a few times to various
pieces of commercial gear, and it didn't provide any such benefits,
nor did I expect it to.

Why you claim to get 4-7dB less noise by adding some crap to the line
cord and expect _us_ to believe it is the real question. Why should I
trust your measurements? Do you even have a way to make a calibrated
measurement of any sort?

OK, just to be fair, name the exact model of preamp and power
conditioner and if I can find them, then I'll put them on the test set
and compare the two measurements, with and without conditioner. Maybe
you do have some magical device that really does work, but you have to
refer to it precisely. You can't just call it a 'power conditioner'.
You must be more specific.

Why must you comment on things that you know
nothing about?

Why not, you just did... power line conditioners.


What makes you think I know nothing about them? Do you even own any
real test equipment? Do you know what end of a soldering iron to
hold? Do you know _anything_ about analog electronics at all? I find
it hard to believe that if you make these fantastic claims about
getting 4-7dB less noise from a mike amp by adding crap to the power
cord.

I'm all ears... waiting for enlightment.


Then start talking less and listening more around here. You've done
little more than **** a bunch of people off with some half assed
theories and haven't offered anything useful in return. Read a bit
more and you might walk away with some useful information.


Best of luck to you...

Monte McGuire

  #99   Report Post  
John La Grou
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:58:31 -0500, "Powell"
wrote:

I recently enjoyed a casual comparison of four truly excellent preamps
(Gordon Model 3, Grace Lunatec V. 3, Great River MP2-MH and Millennia
Media HV-3D), all with admirable linearity to 100 KHz or well beyond,
all with admirable phase coherence and extremely low noise floors
bumping theoretical minimum, and they all sounded different.


"extremely low noise floors bumping theoretical minimum"... not
likely.



Yes, near the theoretical minimum. It's not wildly difficult to
achieve. In fact, "excellent specfications" in general are pretty
common any more. But virtually all micamps, like different
microphones, sound different. "Specs" and "sound" often do not
correlate.

Bottom line -- rent, borrow, demo, do whatever it takes to get a bunch
of candidate micamps into your room, with your mics, on your program,
and make your own analysis.

JL
  #100   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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colon ducksbutt Powel grunted:

I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


Mainly because you'd rather pay half that for outright crap. You
probably enjoy eating secondhand kitty litter and calling it caviar.

The RNP is so much better than your feces of ART that you wouldn't have
a clue what to do with it. Man, if dirt was half as dumb as you are
there would be no land-based lifeforms.

Wait... your mom just called to say you're supposed to get out of the
sheep dip tub and go clean the catbox.

--
ha


  #101   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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neil.hendersonwrote:

"hank alrich" wrotet...


Scott Dorsey wrote:


Then again, I know folks who like to run transformerless preamps into
clipping on kick drum tracks to get a more clicky sort of sound.


They could just drop a calve smaple into it, combine to taste.


Are you talking about bovine calves or lower-part-of-the-leg calves g


Claves, Hank, claves... g

Mehaps me typing was moooving too fast for my so-called brain.

--
ha
  #102   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Monte P McGuire wrote:

Why must you comment on things that you know
nothing about?


Then colon Poweel sputumed:

Why not, you just did... power line conditioners.


What makes you think I know nothing about them? Do you even own any
real test equipment? Do you know what end of a soldering iron to
hold? Do you know _anything_ about analog electronics at all? I find
it hard to believe that if you make these fantastic claims about
getting 4-7dB less noise from a mike amp by adding crap to the power
cord.


Monte,

Unlikely as it seems considering how litle I know technically, I've
figured it out: his power conditioner doesn't pass juice and his amp
noise went down 4 to 7 dB as soon as he hooked it to the conditioner.
Pretty simple, hunh? The solution is for him to buy a ten thousand
dollar AC cord for the power conditioner.

--
ha
  #103   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
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Powell wrote:

The important thing you missed was how the RNP sounds.
That's because you've never tried to use one in a real session.
Why not comment after you've used one.



I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


Isn't "that price point" what your subject line asks for?

The performance level is what we are discussing. Several of us have recommended the RNP as a good option at thae price and you are insisting (without ever having heard one) that it doesn't perform well.




  #104   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
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Powell wrote:

We wouldn’t be having this conversation if the high end
companies I’m most familiar with built mic.
Pre-amps... I would have purchased one from them.


Companies selling high end consumer gear which make mic preamps?

Offhand--I can think of Manley, FM Acuostics, and EAR.



I find an niche market in an industry of largely
shoddy products. Why is that?


Why are you calling them shoddy? Have you ever seen the inside of a Great River preamp?


Why don’t major manufactures enter this market?


Major is a rather loose term, but if you are thinking volume--Mackie will shortly be selling an 8-channel preamp under their Onyx label. Aphex, Symmetrix, Presonus, and DBX are in the standalone preamp market.

If you are thinking reputation, then the players most of us would consider Major have already been named. Is George Massenburg major enough for you?



I don’t know the
answer but would suspect that it’s either profit related
or an uneducated buyer demographic (no money).


It's always profit related if you're in business to make money. Understand that until recently, consoles (real consoles, like those used in real studios) had good quality preamps in them. Massenburg's was the first standalone preamp I recall using in a studio--maybe in '85 or '86? John Hardy started running ads not long after that IIRC.

The whole boutique preamp craze really started in the mid-90s and there is still precious little original thinking being done on the matter. You've been pointed at most of it during this thread.


  #105   Report Post  
Sugarite
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Anyone have a good recommendation for a warm, tube, 2-channel mic preamp
for
around four hundred clams?


The only inexpensive tube *circuit* with a healthy plate voltage is in the
DBX silver-face stuff, which is quite well designed, but unfortunately some
jackass executive decided to use cheap parts like aluminum electrolytic
capacitors. I have a DBX 386, which is a dual mic preamp (solid state dual
servo, possibly class A), with tube circuit (2 12AX7's with 200V plates),
and a 24/96 A/D converter based on an AKM 5383 chip, same as in the Digi002.
The preamp section is somewhat trashy on treble, but I've used it just for
its tube circuit before and it achieves the desired effect without
butchering the treble. The A/D is pretty clean too, and has a digital peak
limiter that simulates tape saturation, though I generally avoid it. 386's
generally go for around $300-350 used.




  #106   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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"Monte P McGuire" wrote ...
??? Done a lot of studio work?


Save r.a.p Please don't feed the troll.


  #107   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?


"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
Powell wrote:

The important thing you missed was how the RNP sounds.
That's because you've never tried to use one in a real session.
Why not comment after you've used one.



I'm not interested in that price point or performance level.


Isn't "that price point" what your subject line asks for?


Save r.a.p Please don't feed the troll.


  #108   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

"hank alrich" wrote...
Wait... your mom just called to say you're supposed to get out of the
sheep dip tub and go clean the catbox.


Save r.a.p Please don't feed the troll.


  #109   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?


"Steve King" wrote in message
...
The Troll is stinking up the place.

Steve King
"Powell" wrote in message
...

(drivel)



Well, thats the end of the useful lifespan of this thread.


  #111   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Powell wrote:

They sure do get jumpy over here when you challenge
their notions of fidelity/accuracy. I don’t see any potential
pledges for the r.a.o. fraternity. As a group they are
delicate wall flowers by comparison .


That's because, on the whole, people here tend to actually listen to
equipment.

You might be better off back in r.a.o.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #112   Report Post  
Richard Kuschel
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Anyone have a good recommendation for a warm, tube, 2-channel mic preamp for
around four hundred clams?

--


Doesn't exist.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
  #113   Report Post  
Richard Kuschel
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

From: "Powell"
Date: Fri, Mar 26, 2004 9:58 PM
Message-id:


"hank alrich" wrote

High level "midrange detail"... is not available at three
times the price point base on manufacturing costs to
produce really high level detail. Consumers have
little choice but to comprise in one form or another, in
the low end market.


Have you used an FMR RNP?

No, but I went to the web site and read about the product.
The manufacture states this about the RNP, "WHAT
SUCKS Now I will violate a very important marketing rule
by telling you what I think sucks about the RNP. Why?
Because nothing is perfect and compromises always
have to be made."... I have claimed nothing different.

After reading the product information it doesnt appear
to be a good candidate for studio use. If used for this
purpose one would need a roll of duck tape to hold it
down in an equipment rack. Weak power supply. It also
only has three LED lights to represent the entire audio
spectrum, that not very useful. The incomplete
specification sheet is particularly troubling, too.



The very best preamps that have have absolutely no LED's (or meters either) to
represent tha audio spectrum. but I do have ears that seem to work very well
for that purpose.

OTOH, I use a Audio Power conditioner with the MPA
Pro and find the midrange accuracy to be suitable for
critical work.


Whoopee doo! Try a Great River next to that MPA with or without a power
conditioner.

Listen to the results and then tell me about critical work.


SNIP

Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
  #114   Report Post  
Paul Stamler
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

"Powell" wrote in message
...

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the high end
companies I'm most familiar with built mic.
Pre-amps... I would have purchased one from them.
Instead, I find an niche market in an industry of largely
shoddy products. Why is that? Why don't major
manufactures enter this market. I don't know the
answer but would suspect that it's either profit related
or an uneducated buyer demographic (no money).


You have now asked an interesting question. There is, I think, one primary
reason: pro and semi-pro recording gear is sold to a different market than
home audio gear (including high-end), through different dealers. For a
high-end audio manufacturer to go into the recording market would require
setting up an entirely new dealer network, and these days most home audio
manufaturers have their hands full already. The work and money involved in
diversifying into this new area would be, I think, too much of a risk for
most of them. The ones who are doing well (like Conrad-Johnson, Audio
Research and Krell) are keeping on doing what they're doing, and the ones
who aren't doing well are struggling just to stay afloat.

All that said, a few high-end audio people *have* marketed recording gear
over the years. Manley is a corporate descendant of David Manley's Vacuum
Tube Logic company, an outfit from England. They've been back and forth a
number of times: David M. started out designing studio gear, decided to
apply his skills to designing home gear, and did reasonably well. From
there, he went back to selling recording gear, and did quite well, but
(Scott, you can correct me if I got this wrong) he and his wife got a
divorce, and she got the company in the settlement. They still make pro
audio gear, including microphones and preamps, and their preamps are
excellent; I've used them.

Tim de Paravicini, another high-end audio guy, made some very fancy and
expensive microphones and marketed them; I think he used capsules from the
Swedish Pearl firm, and whopping huge transformers. He also built custom
preamps, but I don't know whether he marketed them or not. He was pretty
much a one-man firm, and I don't think he's doing it any more; his stuff was
so pricey that his market was quite limited.

Mark Levinson (the person, not the company that now owns the name) has
designed some high-end recording gear, and issued some very good-sounding
recordings. I don't think he markets the equipment any more, though. He made
a very nice analog tape recorder for a while. He has designed an equalizer
for Cello that, although it was originally intended for high-end home users,
has found a home in quite a few mastering studios.

Peace,
Paul


  #115   Report Post  
Paul Stamler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

"Monte P McGuire" wrote in message
...
In article znr1080328791k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
You might want to look
at Monte McGuire's three-issue mic preamp construction article that
was in Recording a few years ago. He'd be happy to hear that someone
has actually built one, I'll bet.


I'm pretty sure that was Paul Stamler's article, but I'm certain it
wasn't mine. The design looked good too IIRC...


I think it was too. I'm working, rather slowly, on a followup design, one
which will include some compromises for the sake of getting eight channels
into a 2U cabinet. Still costing it out.

A couple of folks have built them, by the way, and the ones I've heard from
have liked them. One guy has had oscillation problems, and I'm working with
him now to try and figure out why, and how to fix it.

Peace,
Paul




  #116   Report Post  
Paul Stamler
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

"Monte P McGuire" wrote in message
...

Yes, I do know. I have done a lot of amplifier design and testing
using an Audio Precision test set and I theoretically and practically
know of nothing that could be done to any sort of power supply, unless
it was broken to start with, that will give you 4 to 7dB less noise
out of an amplifier. Forget about power conditioners, I'm talking
complete supply redesign, which I have done a few times to various
pieces of commercial gear, and it didn't provide any such benefits,
nor did I expect it to.

Why you claim to get 4-7dB less noise by adding some crap to the line
cord and expect _us_ to believe it is the real question. Why should I
trust your measurements? Do you even have a way to make a calibrated
measurement of any sort?

OK, just to be fair, name the exact model of preamp and power
conditioner and if I can find them, then I'll put them on the test set
and compare the two measurements, with and without conditioner. Maybe
you do have some magical device that really does work, but you have to
refer to it precisely. You can't just call it a 'power conditioner'.
You must be more specific.


Monte, while I think you're right and the troll is wrong, I also have
dramatically lowered noise in preamps by adding various things to the power
supply, the same sorts of things that a power conditioner adds -- serious
RFI filtering. In an extremely high RFI field, it can make a difference. The
two examples that were most dramatic were the temporary studio in the
transmitter shack at KDHX, ten feet from an 18kW FM transmitter, that we
used for two years before we got our studios finished, and my father's
apartment, which is two blocks from an antenna farm on the near north side
of Chicago.

Wendy Carlos also has an interesting story about how she built a Faraday
cage around her studio in Manhattan, did a really thorough job of it, and
she claims something like 10dB reduction in overall noise level.

Mind you, I think Powell is talking nonsense about 90% of the time. But if
he's operating in a real RFI jumgle, that power conditioner may be making a
real difference.

Peace,
Paul


  #117   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Monte P McGuire wrote:

Why you claim to get 4-7dB less noise by adding some crap to the line
cord and expect _us_ to believe it is the real question. Why should I
trust your measurements? Do you even have a way to make a calibrated
measurement of any sort?


I've got years of experience with Powell. Jim Johnson (then of AT&T labs)
and I went around in circles with Powell many times on RAO back in the days
when it was an audio forum. Powell tried to get AT&T to fire JJ.

You've already vastly exceeded Powell's ability to hold a factual
conversation.

It's highly likely that this Art MPA Gold is the only mic preamp that Powell
has ever had his hands on in his life.


  #118   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

Powell wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote

You're new here, aren't you?

I've posted a few times on r.a.o over the years. We have
a different accent in our conversations over there .

Why am I not surprised?


Oh, Powell outed himself.


They sure do get jumpy over here when you challenge
their notions of fidelity/accuracy.


You still don't get what a Art MPA Gold is, do you Powell?

Ironically, I tried to straighten you out about this POS months ago, but did
you listen to me? No!

I don't see any potential pledges for the r.a.o. fraternity.


RAO - that's a political talk show, right? News flash Powell, there is no
RAO fraternity any more - just a bunch of political pundits.

As a group they are delicate wall flowers by comparison .


Powell, you really still don't understand how thoroughly you've already
discredited yourself, right? Comparing a Art MPA Gold to a Great River,
forget your hatchet job on the RNP, has to be the stuff that Usenet audio
legends are made out of. BTW, that's not the good kind of legend.

Powell, you're about as big of a hoot as the guy over in 4-track who is so
thoroughly MIDI-fied that he couldn't even spell *cardiod*.

BTW Powell, cardiod is a type of microphone. I think that might help you,
given where you are right now.


  #119   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:

It's highly likely that this Art MPA Gold is the only mic preamp that Powell
has ever had his hands on in his life.


So, if he has that little experience why is he so convinced he knows more than
people who do this stuff everyday for a living and have thousands of hours on
the gear in question? Its sad to see him walk into the middle of a gun store
and start flailing with a butter knife.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #120   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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Default Recommend a ~$400 2-channel tube mic-preamp?

In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:

Ironically, I tried to straighten you out about this POS months ago, but did
you listen to me? No!


You mean he had prior warning about this and still stepped in the poop with
both feet and one hand? Talk about not listening...


I don't see any potential pledges for the r.a.o. fraternity.


RAO - that's a political talk show, right? News flash Powell, there is no
RAO fraternity any more - just a bunch of political pundits.


I havent looked at that group for a few years actually so earlier today I
popped in for a minute. I think I found one audio-related thread. After seeing
this I think I'm beginning to see why Ty Ford was so adamant about off-topic
posting. My god, RAO is a wasteland. Its sad.

As a group they are delicate wall flowers by comparison .

Powell, you really still don't understand how thoroughly you've already
discredited yourself, right? Comparing a Art MPA Gold to a Great River,
forget your hatchet job on the RNP, has to be the stuff that Usenet audio
legends are made out of. BTW, that's not the good kind of legend.


I think only a couple times in the past 7 or 8 years have I seen somebody
appear and so thoroughly alienate the regulars in a day or two.


Powell, you're about as big of a hoot as the guy over in 4-track who is so
thoroughly MIDI-fied that he couldn't even spell *cardiod*.

BTW Powell, cardiod is a type of microphone. I think that might help you,
given where you are right now.


Ahh... Arny, I dont know if you were kidding but I think its "cardioid".

Garth~




"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
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