[Tobiah]

This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.



On 01/23/2015 08:36 PM, JackA wrote:
While I hear a lot of "today's" music is purposely made loud, or as
the say, Brick Walled, I feel it started long ago, way back when.
After a divorce in the 80's, I began collecting vinyl records of past
(Pop) music. I'd listen to the "hit" 45 vinyl single. I'd listen to
the fade-out and always wondered why the audio became cleaner, not
always, but enough to remember. I assume, digital audio editors (I
think you may call the DAWs?) brought about current loudness wars,
since you can better control sound in a digital world than analog.

Also, I tend to think of loudness in more than one way. In other
words, many artists added instrument after instrument to create a
greater dense sound. This density I feel is a form of loudness, since
you don't have to have greater amounts of amplitude, just less quiet
spots.

Your input greatly appreciated.

Sorry for all the question!

Best, Jack

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

Yes, it is a massive pain in the neck for the cutting engineer.

I once cut a morse code practice record. Very loud tones, with a very quiet
background. It took several test cuts to figure out how tight a pitch we
could get away with. Then we got the test pressing back and found out it
was not even that tight. At first I blamed it on print-through on the
master but I was totally wrong.
--scott




On 01/23/2015 08:36 PM, JackA wrote:
While I hear a lot of "today's" music is purposely made loud, or as
the say, Brick Walled, I feel it started long ago, way back when.
After a divorce in the 80's, I began collecting vinyl records of past
(Pop) music. I'd listen to the "hit" 45 vinyl single. I'd listen to
the fade-out and always wondered why the audio became cleaner, not
always, but enough to remember. I assume, digital audio editors (I
think you may call the DAWs?) brought about current loudness wars,
since you can better control sound in a digital world than analog.

Also, I tend to think of loudness in more than one way. In other
words, many artists added instrument after instrument to create a
greater dense sound. This density I feel is a form of loudness, since
you don't have to have greater amounts of amplitude, just less quiet
spots.

Your input greatly appreciated.

Sorry for all the question!

Best, Jack




--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

Tobiah wrote:

This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

"Pre-echo" - slight physical distortion of the groove adjacent to the
the very quiet lead-in groove.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Rick Ruskin]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 12:42:05 -0600, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Tobiah wrote:

This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

"Pre-echo" - slight physical distortion of the groove adjacent to the
the very quiet lead-in groove.

Yet another reason I don't miss vinyl.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music- Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

[Frank Stearns]

(hank alrich) writes:

Tobiah wrote:

This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

"Pre-echo" - slight physical distortion of the groove adjacent to the
the very quiet lead-in groove.

Yup. Sat in on many LP mastering sessions and watched the struggles. As Scott can
probably detail better than me, vinyl was always a series of trade offs.

Cutter head temp too cold and you got noise. Raise temp to reduce noise you then
ran the risk "pushing" rather than cutting, which could lead to groove echo
problems, deformation of grooves if you didn't immediately get to plating, etc.

I know a lot of folks love vinyl, and it's nice that it's stimulating activety in
some quarters, but I'm glad not to have to deal with it any more.

My $0.02.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[geoff]

On 5/02/2015 5:44 a.m., Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

That's a cutting error rather than tape print-through.

geoff

[JackA]

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 3:03:50 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 5/02/2015 5:44 a.m., Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

That's a cutting error rather than tape print-through.

How do YOU know the difference?

Jack

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

JackA wrote:
On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 3:03:50 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 5/02/2015 5:44 a.m., Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

That's a cutting error rather than tape print-through.

How do YOU know the difference?

If it's print-through on the master, it will be synchronized with the
rotation rate of the supply reel, not with the rotation rate of the LP.

Also, if the master is properly wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly pre-echo.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Scott Dorsey wrote: "Also, if the master is properly
wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly
pre-echo.
--scott "


I don't know - I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?

[John Williamson]

On 04/02/2015 21:40, wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "Also, if the master is properly
wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly
pre-echo.
--scott "


I don't know - I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?

Print through caused by long term storage in high temperatures. They
often used cheap, aka thin, tape, and the higher the storage
temperature, the worse the print through. It's common, and is one sign
of high speed duplication. There's also post echo, but that's more
easily masked by the wanted signal.

It's easily avoided by ensuring that you play or fast wind cassette and
open reel tapes from end to end every few months. This changes the
relative positions of the tape on the layers, and the print through
cancels itself out before it gets noticeable.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/4/2015 10:40 PM, wrote:
I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?

Print-through on the cassette. Just because it's minimized on the master
doesn't mean that the cassette itself won't develop print-through. Tape
is tape.

Since most cassettes are recorded in both directions, it's hard to say
what's tails-out.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[None]

short-busser @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote: "Also, if the master is properly
wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly
pre-echo.
--scott "


I don't know - I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?

The dumb****ery continues!

[JackA]

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 4:40:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "Also, if the master is properly
wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly
pre-echo.
--scott "


I don't know - I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?

Only ever heard it on CDs, early songs!!
But, at 1-7/8 IPS you might get half the song echoed!! :-)

Jack

[geoff]

On 5/02/2015 10:40 a.m., wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "Also, if the master is properly
wound-tails out, print-through causes mostly
post-echo while groove deformation causes mostly
pre-echo.
--scott "


I don't know - I own plenty of commercial cassette
tapes with pre-echo on them. Some very noticeable,
others barely. How would that be explained?



Print-through on the master tape, or even on the cassette itself .


geoff

[geoff]

On 5/02/2015 9:46 a.m., JackA wrote:
On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 3:03:50 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 5/02/2015 5:44 a.m., Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

That's a cutting error rather than tape print-through.

How do YOU know the difference?


Because it is physically synchronised to the groove position, you claimed.


geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/4/2015 5:44 PM, Tobiah wrote:
This is unrelated really, but I remember listening to LP's, and hearing
a foreshadowing of each song during the gap between songs. I realized that
the 'silent' portion of the groove was being slightly altered by the loud
part adjacent to it. You could even watch as the record spun, and the song
started at the same rotation position as the foreshadowing started.

Yes, it's known as "groove echo." You actually remove material from the
lacquer master when cutting, so that doesn't have the problem, at least
not as much as a pressing. But when pressing records, the plastic flows
a bit as it's cooling and you get a light impression of the adjacent
groove. Actually it's present all through the record, but it's masked by
the music so you only hear it on the lead-in groove and bands between
songs.

THIS IS NOT A REASON WHY VINYL SOUNDS BETTER THAN A CD. (you really
don't need twice as much music)



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com