[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
wrote in message
...
So do you still claim that 95% of professional
mixing desks do not have
PFL
metering? A yes or no will do fine Arnold.

Many Yamaha desks do not unfortunately!
I guess it depends on who is defining "professional
mixing desks" :-)

I've got a dozen yamaha desks , from mg's to o1v to
the new ls9 they all have pre fade level

The EMX series doesn't.

which yamahas made in the last 10 years are without
even a clip indicator?

You consider a single clip LED to be "metering". You
must be the only one I
imagine.


that is a pre fade level indicator
and I believe even the emx has them , though I would
have to look that up to say with confidence

So you don't understand the difference between "metering"
(as you originally stated) and a simple clip "indicator"
then.

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is clipping or at best
potential clipping. To put this in perspective, the clipping point for most
pro audio gear is in a braod range from maybe +10 to +30 dBu.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at least 10 dB
below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping light is always dark,
and unlikely to ever light.

So, George basically is claiming that people should set levels using a
indicator that should always be dark. Now I know either George or Phildo are
the world's greatest sound guys, but setting levels using an indicator that
is always dark should be difficult, even for them. ;-)

Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators,
nothing to do specifically with the PFL bus (as you
stated) in any case.

The clip indicator in most consoles immediately follows the mic preamp. PFL
is usually taken after all active components, equalization, and
amplification in the channel strip. By equating the clipping indicator with
PFL, George is saying that all of the active stages in the channel strip
except the mic preamp have no effect on the operation of the console. ;-)

Basically, George is talking trash. But, what's new about that?

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Phildo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Phildo" wrote in message


The same amount of children
you've had kill themselves because of the shame of
having you as a father (or maybe the abuse you put him
through).

Phildo, this is well beyond the pale, but it is typical
of the terrible lies you habitually tell.

You brought up the car wreck I was involved in (which as
you know was VERY traumatic for me and I was totally
blameless in)

That's not true at all Phildo. Anybody who can read the
thread a few posts back can see that someone else
brought the matter up. I just asked a question to
clarify a minor point.

I only saw your post. I have assillon killfiled.

Very lame and deceptive Phildo - because Phil's post was properly quoted in
my post. Therefore Phildo, if you had the reading ability of a smart second
grader, you would have stille known that Phil was the one who brought the
issue up, not me.

Phildo, you owe me an apology, and you owe the whole of RAP an apology for
insulting their intetelligence with this lame deception of yours about
having Phil killfiled.

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message




If this were a moderated forum you'd be booted
off in an instant.

LOL!

So Phildo you want to everybody to believe that you'd ride free on a
moderated forum after your false claims blaming me for the death of my son?

[Wog George]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

snip

insulting their intetelligence...

Irony prevails

--
George
"Dolphins, Eskimos, who cares?! It's all a bunch of tree hugging hippie
crap!" - Eric Cartman - 20 August 1997

Why do you insist it is YOUR decision to make on the customers behalf?
You assume ALL your customers are too incompetent to decide for
themselves?

MrT.

the FACT ius behriger has a world class repair network ad desires ay repairs
of thier products to meet thier standards
if you cant abide by that
buy something else
its really that simple
george

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

wrote in message
...
So do you still claim that 95% of professional mixing desks do not
have
PFL
metering? A yes or no will do fine Arnold.

Many Yamaha desks do not unfortunately!
I guess it depends on who is defining "professional mixing desks"
:-)

I've got a dozen yamaha desks , from mg's to o1v to the new ls9
they all have pre fade level

The EMX series doesn't.

which yamahas made in the last 10 years are without even a clip
indicator?

You consider a single clip LED to be "metering". You must be the only
one
I
imagine.


that is a pre fade level indicator
and I believe even the emx has them , though I would have to look that up
to
say with confidence


So you don't understand the difference between "metering" (as you
originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.
Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators, nothing to do
specifically with the PFL bus (as you stated) in any case.

MrT.

lets go back , way back,

is the clip light pre or post fade on the 95% of live soud mixig desks?

this should be easy, even for you
george

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is clipping or at best
potential clipping. To put this in perspective, the clipping point
for most pro audio gear is in a braod range from maybe +10 to +30 dBu.

That's the irrelevant info, the relevant info is whether the indicator has
lead and if so, how much and indeed whether its indication is credible.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum signal to
noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic range.

To do that efficiently you of course need to know what you are doing.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
If you have need
for service give Jim Savery a call
he is the WORLD customer service manager at behringer (email me or
google
him, he is all over them web)I think you will be surprised at how
friendly
a
nd resposive he, and behriger is
its a pity you slag what you have not experianced

I never slagged their service at all (I have never used it, and I own
dozens
of Behringer items), just their attitude which you find necessary to
stick
up for with massive amounts of spin.

which you try to derail, even though you've ever used it

You see, I CHOOSE not to use it. You simply want to FORCE me against my
wishes.


and you want to force behringer to do something against thier wishes or the
intrest of the vast majority of thier customers, the vast majority of thier
customers have no interest in being bech jockeys
they perfer quality factory authorized service
I know this from conversations with the people at behringer who decide the
service policy

I am not forceing you to do anything
get qualified ad the information is available
get skilled and do it without diagrams
or buy something else

How does MY choice derail anything?

do anythig you want
but if you want behringer schematics you will first have to prove to
behringer your qualified to have them


We are ALL aware of the alternative, ie. buying new equipment. I admit
is
isusually the most viable option.
Now simply admit that is their goal and lets move on!

thier goal is to provide the best product at the best price

OK, the main service option for Behringer is to junk everything and buy
new
then.
That's what I've been saying all along.

I would junk anythig that is not worth repairing
I would repair anything that is
behringer has serviced my gear many times
very high quality work



from my point of vier when a company works so hard to provide the best
repairs possible there is no reason to let all the hacks access to
bunging
up thier stuff.

At least you admit to being a hack. You are making wild assumptions about
others abilities though.

behriger isn't makeig assumptions
all they ask is you show them your up to thier requirments by gettig
authorized

if your not willig to show behringer your not a "hack" then you will not
have access to the behringer
papers and tech notes

behriger is not saying you cant putz around in your gear
what they do say is we want to insure the quality.

either get authorized or buy something else
just quit your whining about not being allowed to play with the big boys
George

MrT.

lets go back , way back,

is the clip light pre or post fade on the 95% of live soud mixig desks?

this should be easy, even for you

he would not know as he sets it by ear....

Thats arii who dosent use meters to set his gain structure
I am trying to school Mr.T o the very most basic concepts of settig gain
structure on live sound desks
it seems he has never used oe and seeing as how he has invaded the live
sound newsgroup its about time for him to get with the program
george


george

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

As anyone who does repairs on stage and PA gear knows - nearly all
breakdowns are the direct result of customer abuse

Whilst generally true, it sems that a lot of Behringer stuff just expires all on
its own without any provovation. Like the crossover I mentioned, installed in a
rack in a permanent install so not even trucked around and hardly ever touched
aside from the on-off switch !

Graham

[Phil Allison]

"Eeyore"
Phil Allison wrote:

As anyone who does repairs on stage and PA gear knows - nearly all
breakdowns are the direct result of customer abuse

Whilst generally true, it sems that a lot of Behringer stuff just expires
all on
its own without any provovation.


** Irrelevant to the FACT that exact the SAME people who carry out the
low paid warranty repairs get to decide what IS and is NOT a warranty
job.

Ever heard of a kangaroo court ???

****wit.




...... Phil

[Eeyore]

wrote:

Why do you insist it is YOUR decision to make on the customers behalf?
You assume ALL your customers are too incompetent to decide for
themselves?


the FACT ius behriger has a world class repair network ad desires ay repairs
of thier products to meet thier standards

£50 including return postage and packing ro replace an op-amp ?

That's world class SOMETHING for sure !

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote
wrote

I never slagged their service at all (I have never used it, and I own
dozens of Behringer items), just their attitude which you find necessary
to
stick up for with massive amounts of spin.

which you try to derail, even though you've ever used it

You see, I CHOOSE not to use it. You simply want to FORCE me against my
wishes.

and you want to force behringer to do something against thier wishes or the
intrest of the vast majority of thier customers, the vast majority of thier
customers have no interest in being bech jockeys

Indeed, they use local repairers for most of their repairs (except Behringer).

No-one ever said all the customers want to their OWN repairs you fathead.


they perfer quality factory authorized service

Not if its more expensive.


I know this from conversations with the people at behringer who decide the
service policy

You KNOW nothing of the sort.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Marc Amsterdam wrote:

wrote:

is the clip light pre or post fade on the 95% of live soud mixig desks?

this should be easy, even for you

he would not know as he sets it by ear....

Don't YOU mix by ear ? I know I don't mix using the clip lights (or meters for
that matter).

Graham

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is clipping or at best
potential clipping. To put this in perspective, the clipping point
for most pro audio gear is in a braod range from maybe +10 to +30 dBu.

That's the irrelevant info, the relevant info is whether the indicator has
lead and if so, how much and indeed whether its indication is credible.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum signal to
noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic range.

Sometimes, for specmanship, the available maximum level is SO high (e.g. +30dBu)
it would be nuts to try to use it.

Graham

[Phildo]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...
Why do you insist it is YOUR decision to make on the customers behalf?

George is not Behringer. It is their decision not his. If that is what they
want then it is up to them and if you don't like it then tough, don't buy
their gear.

You assume ALL your customers are too incompetent to decide for
themselves?

How many times do you have to have the reasons for Behringer's decision
explained to you before it penetrates your thick skull?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...
So you don't understand the difference between "metering" (as you
originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.
Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators, nothing to do
specifically with the PFL bus (as you stated) in any case.

No but they are metering and are used to set channel gains. Mr Kruger claims
he can set channel gains using his ears better than he can by using any form
of metering. Suffice to say it is just another example of how arrogant and
clueless he is.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...
I never slagged their service at all (I have never used it, and I own
dozens
of Behringer items), just their attitude which you find necessary to
stick
up for with massive amounts of spin.

which you try to derail, even though you've ever used it

You see, I CHOOSE not to use it. You simply want to FORCE me against my
wishes.

George cannot force you to do anything. It seems you are now confusing
George with Behringer. Here's a hint for you - Behringer is a massive
company that manufactures and sells audio equipment. George is a big beardy
muppet who runs a very succesful sound company, plays the mandolin very
well, drinks beer and apparently sets off chemical weapon alerts every time
he farts.

How does MY choice derail anything?

You don't get a choice for reasons that have been explained to you many
times. Deal with it.

We are ALL aware of the alternative, ie. buying new equipment. I admit
is
isusually the most viable option.
Now simply admit that is their goal and lets move on!

thier goal is to provide the best product at the best price

OK, the main service option for Behringer is to junk everything and buy
new
then.

No, that is what you say, not what has been said to you.

That's what I've been saying all along.

You've been making it up as you go along.

from my point of vier when a company works so hard to provide the best
repairs possible there is no reason to let all the hacks access to
bunging
up thier stuff.

At least you admit to being a hack. You are making wild assumptions about
others abilities though.

If they are not hacks then let them become authorised Behringer service
agents.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is clipping or at best
potential clipping. To put this in perspective, the clipping point
for most pro audio gear is in a braod range from maybe +10 to +30 dBu.

That's the irrelevant info, the relevant info is whether the indicator has
lead and if so, how much and indeed whether its indication is credible.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum signal to
noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic range.

To do that efficiently you of course need to know what you are doing.

That rules Arny out then.

Phildo

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum
signal to noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic
range.

Sometimes, for specmanship, the available maximum level is SO high
(e.g. +30dBu) it would be nuts to try to use it.

There is always some special case - extremely high supply rail voltage comes
to mind - but the general recommendation surely would be to use resistive
attenuation so as to get clip levels reasonably aligned. Things that
temporarily didn't matter in the "16 bit era" has begun mattering again,
ref. the recent thread about the DCX.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

wrote:

the FACT ius behriger has a world class repair network ad desires ay
repairs of thier products to meet thier standards

£50 including return postage and packing ro replace an op-amp ?

That's world class SOMETHING for sure !

Welcome to the insanities in the early part of the third millenium. The
sparepart for the "non-diy repair" or the "non 6 pack repair" is another
CX3400. From a resource viewpoint it is insane .... also because a likely
explanation of the low cost of manufacturing is that true environmental
costs of production are not paid.

That said, some of the time it may well be true that the resource cost of a
full sparepart supply chain would be larger than the environmental cost of
say a new ink jet printer constituting the smallest sparepart. But I do
wonder whether the money and resource math always gives the same result.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Phildo" wrote in message




If this were a moderated forum you'd be booted
off in an instant.

LOL!

Laugh all you want Arny. Doesn't make it any less true.

So Phildo you want to everybody to believe that you'd ride free on a
moderated forum after your false claims blaming me for the death of my
son?

False claims? That's what you would like the world to believe Arny.

Anyway, the whole point of a moderated forum is to get rid of ****s like you
so there wouldn't be any need to post about you butt-****ing your son in
response to an equally upsetting post you made.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
So, George basically is claiming that people should set levels using a
indicator that should always be dark. Now I know either George or Phildo
are the world's greatest sound guys, but setting levels using an indicator
that is always dark should be difficult, even for them. ;-)

That's right Arnold. If you knew how to set channel gains properly then you
would know exactly how to do it. Do you really have to have me explain it to
you?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I only saw your post. I have assillon killfiled.

Very lame and deceptive Phildo

But completely true

- because Phil's post was properly quoted in my post. Therefore Phildo, if
you had the reading ability of a smart second grader, you would have
stille known that Phil was the one who brought the issue up, not me.

Assillon brought it up, you made sure I saw it.

Phildo, you owe me an apology, and you owe the whole of RAP an apology for
insulting their intetelligence with this lame deception of yours about
having Phil killfiled.

******** to that. You owe both groups huge apologies for all the bull****
you're posted over the years. Add to that the church sound forum at PSW
(which you got banned from for life in just a few posts), RAO and pretty
much every group you have ever posted to.

You have a nerve demanding an apology when you cannot even admit you are
wrong, let alone apologise.

Go **** yourself Arnold.

Phildo

[Lumpy]

Eeyore wrote:
... it sems that a lot of Behringer stuff just
expires all on its own without any provovation...

My Chevrolet, my teeth and my horse all do the same.
And I spend a lot more on maintenence on those three
than I do on my Behringer stuff.


Lumpy

How come you didn't star on Star Trek?
Because Clint Howard beat me for the part of Balok.

www.lumpyvoice.org

"Lumpy" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:
... it sems that a lot of Behringer stuff just
expires all on its own without any provovation...


this from a self admitted thief who stole qsc's mechaical designs, helped
studio master steal phase linear designs
also a liar as he publicly announced he was sending lawyers after me
none have arrived
your simply a **** bag eyesore
with all due respect
George

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

wrote:

the FACT ius behriger has a world class repair network ad desires ay
repairs of thier products to meet thier standards

£50 including return postage and packing ro replace an op-amp ?


so just replace the ****ing thing already
I could have replace100 of them in less time tha you spent whining here
you sound like baby who can't get his diaper change
george

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
So, George basically is claiming that people should set levels using a
indicator that should always be dark. Now I know either George or Phildo
are the world's greatest sound guys, but setting levels using an
indicator that is always dark should be difficult, even for them. ;-)


yes arii turn it up till it bliks
then turn it back just enough so it doesn't
or haven't you ever worked o low end desks where you had to understand how
to use the clip meter to set your gain
I guess all the world doesn't get to play with the expensive toys you
cheated the congregation out of thier money to buy for your ego.

maybe spend some time in the real world of audio , ot on your fancy
installed system and you would have understood this
George

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is clipping or at best
potential clipping. To put this in perspective, the clipping point
for most pro audio gear is in a braod range from maybe +10 to +30
dBu.

That's the irrelevant info, the relevant info is whether the indicator
has lead and if so, how much and indeed whether its indication is
credible.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum signal
to noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic range.

Sometimes, for specmanship, the available maximum level is SO high (e.g.
+30dBu) it would be nuts to try to use it.

Graham


There are many Distribution Amplifiers (DAs) with +30dBm (yes, *m*) output
capability.

Good systems design requires 18dB headroom throughout the chain. For +4
dBm environments, that's +22dBm. In the days of +8 dBm systems, +26dBm was
needed. +30 dBm happens to be One Watt. It's a tidy number, and not just
"specmanship".

We used to describe operators as VU "Meter Minders" or "Pin Pounders". For
the latter, some downstream forgiveness saves a gaggle of problems.

There have been many discussions about the level at which the "peak"
indicator should light. Certainly it should be *before* clipping. A good
suggestion is an amber LED 6dB below clipping, and a red one 3dB below.
Good operation would see some occassional ambers and almost never a red.

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

There have been many discussions about the level at which the "peak"
indicator should light. Certainly it should be *before* clipping. A good
suggestion is an amber LED 6dB below clipping, and a red one 3dB below.
Good operation would see some occassional ambers and almost never a red.

and most manuals will give you the headroom once the peak blinks so it is a
valid way of setting pfl, if others ways are not providied
george

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Arny Krueger]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good point. All a clipping indicator indicates is
clipping or at best potential clipping. To put this in
perspective, the clipping point for most pro audio gear
is in a broad range from maybe +10 to +30 dBu.

That's the irrelevant info,

?????????

the relevant info is whether
the indicator has lead and if so, how much and indeed
whether its indication is credible.

Which varies.

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp
should be at least 10 dB below clipping. Under those
conditions, the clipping light is always dark, and
unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation.

A new commandment I give unto you:

Blessed are they who operate without headroom, for they shall be known as
producers of clipped sounds.

If you want
maximum signal to noise ratio then you need to use the
available dynamic range.

Mixing consoles have from about 90 dB (cheap analog) to 144 dB (24 bit
digital) dynamic range. The signals they amplify come from sources that
have residual noise in both the acoustical and electrical domains. Rarely
does the signal being amplified have more then about 75 dB dynamic range.
That means that it is practical to allow from 15 to 69 dB for headroom,
without significant reduction of the signal's dynamic range.

To do that efficiently you of course need to know what
you are doing.

Exactly. It is a very common mistake to fail to leave enough headroom, and
end up with unintended clipping when artists become a little extra
exhuberant, etc.

[Eeyore]

Phildo wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote

Why do you insist it is YOUR decision to make on the customers behalf?

George is not Behringer. It is their decision not his. If that is what they
want then it is up to them and if you don't like it then tough, don't buy
their gear.

You assume ALL your customers are too incompetent to decide for
themselves?

How many times do you have to have the reasons for Behringer's decision
explained to you before it penetrates your thick skull?

It seems to me he understands Behringer's reasons better than you do.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Marc Amsterdam" wrote in message


course i mix by ear, i just dont set the gains by ear.

How do you set the gain, when the console has no PFL metering?

Not checking your metering when mixing is like not
checking the speedometer when driving, or altitude when
flying, NOT a good idea!

Agreed - providing of course that there is a PFL meter to check with.

[Eeyore]

Phildo wrote:

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

So you don't understand the difference between "metering" (as you
originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.
Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators, nothing to do
specifically with the PFL bus (as you stated) in any case.

No but they are metering and are used to set channel gains. Mr Kruger claims
he can set channel gains using his ears better than he can by using any form
of metering. Suffice to say it is just another example of how arrogant and
clueless he is.

And you mix with meters rather than your ears do you ? Bwahahahahahahaa !

The only reason I need a channel PFL is if I need to 'troubleshoot'.

Any decent modern mixer with a sensible gain struture (and operated
proficiently) is in no danger whatever of clipping a channel under normal mix
conditions. As such, fretting over channel levels is a pointless and futile
exercise.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...
So you don't understand the difference between
"metering" (as you originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.
Besides the clip indicators are channel indicators,
nothing to do specifically with the PFL bus (as you
stated) in any case.

No but they are metering

Nope, they are warning lights. I guess Phildo this means that you always
shift your car by revving it up while waiting for the oil pressure light to
come on.

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Peak operating levels through a console or a preamp should be at
least 10 dB below clipping. Under those conditions, the clipping
light is always dark, and unlikely to ever light.

I don't get the point in that speculation. If you want maximum
signal to noise ratio then you need to use the available dynamic
range.

Sometimes, for specmanship, the available maximum level is SO high
(e.g. +30dBu) it would be nuts to try to use it.

There is always some special case - extremely high supply rail voltage comes
to mind - but the general recommendation surely would be to use resistive
attenuation so as to get clip levels reasonably aligned. Things that
temporarily didn't matter in the "16 bit era" has begun mattering again,
ref. the recent thread about the DCX.

If the DCX is as noisy as suggested, that's due to indifferent design, not any
issue with overload levels.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wrote:

the FACT ius behriger has a world class repair network ad desires ay
repairs of thier products to meet thier standards

£50 including return postage and packing ro replace an op-amp ?

That's world class SOMETHING for sure !

Welcome to the insanities in the early part of the third millenium. The
sparepart for the "non-diy repair" or the "non 6 pack repair" is another
CX3400. From a resource viewpoint it is insane .... also because a likely
explanation of the low cost of manufacturing is that true environmental
costs of production are not paid.

That said, some of the time it may well be true that the resource cost of a
full sparepart supply chain would be larger than the environmental cost of
say a new ink jet printer constituting the smallest sparepart. But I do
wonder whether the money and resource math always gives the same result.

Behringer uses no 'fancy' parts. I can readily get any required spares at low
cost. These are generic parts that 'everyone' uses like dual op-amps for
example.

The hindrance is the absence of a schematic which will likely add an hour or
more to the time required to service it.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Phildo wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

So, George basically is claiming that people should set levels using a
indicator that should always be dark. Now I know either George or Phildo
are the world's greatest sound guys, but setting levels using an indicator
that is always dark should be difficult, even for them. ;-)

That's right Arnold. If you knew how to set channel gains properly then you
would know exactly how to do it. Do you really have to have me explain it to
you?

Anyone with half a clue can set channel gains without PFL metering. I rarely
need to resort to it.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Marc Amsterdam wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Marc Amsterdam wrote:
wrote:

is the clip light pre or post fade on the 95% of live soud mixig desks?

this should be easy, even for you

he would not know as he sets it by ear....

Don't YOU mix by ear ? I know I don't mix using the clip lights (or meters for
that matter).

course i mix by ear,

Fine

i just dont set the gains by ear.

What's the point when you know how loud you want a channel in the mix using your
ears ?

Would you for example trim a channel according to the meters to get a nice strong
signal and then operate the fader at -20 because you don't need to add much of that
signal ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

wrote:

"Lumpy" wrote
Eeyore wrote:
... it sems that a lot of Behringer stuff just
expires all on its own without any provovation...


this from a self admitted thief who stole qsc's mechaical designs

Bwahahahahahahaaa !

Show me anything I STOLE. My designs are out there for anyone to see. They're
not hidden away. It's time for you to back up your allegations with facts you
utter ****bag.


, helped studio master steal phase linear designs

Total and complete fabrication. The Phase Linear designs were crap. I'd never
have anything to do with them.

Do you just make this stuff up to amuse yourself.

Graham