Hi all,

I have a pair of Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.5" separates that are currently
running off a 4-channel amp in bridged mode (1+2 channels to left, 3+4
channels to right). The amp is 60w RMS x 4 IIRC, so I'm guessing about 150 x
2 in the bridged mode (right?). The separates are rated (again IIRC) at 90w
per side.

I'm thinking about getting rid of the crossovers that came with the
separates and biamping them instead. Since the tweeters are placed about a
foot away from the woofers, this will allow me to take better advantage of
the time alignment settings on my HU as well as the crossover selections. My
HU is an Eclipse 8443. Also, the parametric EQ on the unit is 5 bands for
the highs and 5 bands for the mids--"highs" being one pair of RCAs and
"mids" being another pair. Since I have the components connected to only one
pair right now, I can only use half the EQ. I would like to know if the
tweeters use significantly less power than the woofers. If so, I'd hate to
use the amp in 4 channel mode and "waste" 2 60w channels on the tweets and
have only 60w left over for the woofers. Would it work out better to keep
the amp in bridged mode driving only the woofers and let the tweeters run
straight off the HU? I believe this unit has a pretty capable amp section,
but I'm not sure if (a) it would sound better than using the amp in 4
channel mode or (b) if the Eclipse keeps it's amp section on in PRO mode.

Sorry if I've left anything out, not sure if I'm being clear enough here.

Thanks!

-Bill

Bill Pallies wrote
Hi all,

I have a pair of Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.5" separates that are currently
running off a 4-channel amp in bridged mode (1+2 channels to left, 3+4
channels to right). The amp is 60w RMS x 4 IIRC, so I'm guessing about 150
x
2 in the bridged mode (right?).

All things being equal you should get ~240 x 2 bridged (60 x 4 @ 4ohm, 120 x
4 @ 2ohm, 240 x 2 @ 4ohm)

The separates are rated (again IIRC) at 90w
per side.

I'm thinking about getting rid of the crossovers that came with the
separates and biamping them instead. Since the tweeters are placed about a
foot away from the woofers, this will allow me to take better advantage of
the time alignment settings on my HU as well as the crossover selections.
My
HU is an Eclipse 8443. Also, the parametric EQ on the unit is 5 bands for
the highs and 5 bands for the mids--"highs" being one pair of RCAs and
"mids" being another pair. Since I have the components connected to only
one
pair right now, I can only use half the EQ. I would like to know if the
tweeters use significantly less power than the woofers. If so, I'd hate to
use the amp in 4 channel mode and "waste" 2 60w channels on the tweets and
have only 60w left over for the woofers.

You won't waste power bi-amping. But you will have more control given the
extra eq available.

Would it work out better to keep
the amp in bridged mode driving only the woofers and let the tweeters run
straight off the HU?

I doubt it would work out better, you could try it to see what it sounds
like though (of course, that would leave you with ~240W for each 6 1/2)

I believe this unit has a pretty capable amp section,
but I'm not sure if (a) it would sound better than using the amp in 4
channel mode or (b) if the Eclipse keeps it's amp section on in PRO mode.

Sorry if I've left anything out, not sure if I'm being clear enough here.

You will have to try running it both ways (for a week at least) to develop a
preference ... then go with what you like best. Your opinion will differ
from everyone else's, so just make yourself happy.
If it were me ... I would bi-amp it (in fact, that will be what I do with my
setup once I get an amp for the sub)

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

I doubt he'll get over 180x2. Very few amps will double in power when you
halve the load.


Paul Vina



"Daniel Snooks" wrote in message
...
Bill Pallies wrote
Hi all,

I have a pair of Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.5" separates that are
currently
running off a 4-channel amp in bridged mode (1+2 channels to left, 3+4
channels to right). The amp is 60w RMS x 4 IIRC, so I'm guessing about
150
x
2 in the bridged mode (right?).

All things being equal you should get ~240 x 2 bridged (60 x 4 @ 4ohm, 120
x
4 @ 2ohm, 240 x 2 @ 4ohm)

The separates are rated (again IIRC) at 90w
per side.

I'm thinking about getting rid of the crossovers that came with the
separates and biamping them instead. Since the tweeters are placed about
a
foot away from the woofers, this will allow me to take better advantage
of
the time alignment settings on my HU as well as the crossover
selections.
My
HU is an Eclipse 8443. Also, the parametric EQ on the unit is 5 bands
for
the highs and 5 bands for the mids--"highs" being one pair of RCAs and
"mids" being another pair. Since I have the components connected to only
one
pair right now, I can only use half the EQ. I would like to know if the
tweeters use significantly less power than the woofers. If so, I'd hate
to
use the amp in 4 channel mode and "waste" 2 60w channels on the tweets
and
have only 60w left over for the woofers.

You won't waste power bi-amping. But you will have more control given the
extra eq available.

Would it work out better to keep
the amp in bridged mode driving only the woofers and let the tweeters
run
straight off the HU?

I doubt it would work out better, you could try it to see what it sounds
like though (of course, that would leave you with ~240W for each 6 1/2)

I believe this unit has a pretty capable amp section,
but I'm not sure if (a) it would sound better than using the amp in 4
channel mode or (b) if the Eclipse keeps it's amp section on in PRO
mode.

Sorry if I've left anything out, not sure if I'm being clear enough
here.

You will have to try running it both ways (for a week at least) to develop
a
preference ... then go with what you like best. Your opinion will differ
from everyone else's, so just make yourself happy.
If it were me ... I would bi-amp it (in fact, that will be what I do with
my
setup once I get an amp for the sub)

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Paul Vina wrote
I doubt he'll get over 180x2. Very few amps will double in power when you
halve the load.


Paul Vina

Very few? That's a bit harsh. Besides, we are throwing ratings around, which
is significantly different than what may happen with real world output. It
would help if the OP let us know who makes the amp he has.

I know that my two amps are rated conservatively at :

Zapco AG200 - 50 x 2 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 2 @ 2ohm
- 195 x 1 @ 4ohm

PPI PC450 - 50 x 4 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 4 @ 2ohm
- 200 x 2 @ 4ohm

You are suggesting that he will only realize ~75% power when bridging (180
instead of 240). I very much doubt my Zapco is only good for 145 x 1 @ 4ohm,
despite the ratings given.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

It's been proven in just about every product test done on an amp. Look at
the online reviews at CarSound for instance. Very few off them will double.
I'm not saying that none of them do, but it's only the very best amps that
will do it. Most mid and low end amp will current limit and prevent a
doubling.



Paul Vina




"Daniel Snooks" wrote in message
...
Paul Vina wrote
I doubt he'll get over 180x2. Very few amps will double in power when
you
halve the load.


Paul Vina

Very few? That's a bit harsh. Besides, we are throwing ratings around,
which
is significantly different than what may happen with real world output. It
would help if the OP let us know who makes the amp he has.

I know that my two amps are rated conservatively at :

Zapco AG200 - 50 x 2 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 2 @ 2ohm
- 195 x 1 @ 4ohm

PPI PC450 - 50 x 4 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 4 @ 2ohm
- 200 x 2 @ 4ohm

You are suggesting that he will only realize ~75% power when bridging (180
instead of 240). I very much doubt my Zapco is only good for 145 x 1 @
4ohm,
despite the ratings given.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

For some reason it didn't occur to me to actually look up the numbers when I
first posted. The specs state 180w x 2 when bridged.

The amp is a Kenwood by the way. http://tinyurl.com/ub1b

-Bill

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
news:Gawrb.113194$275.321464@attbi_s53...
It's been proven in just about every product test done on an amp. Look at
the online reviews at CarSound for instance. Very few off them will
double.
I'm not saying that none of them do, but it's only the very best amps that
will do it. Most mid and low end amp will current limit and prevent a
doubling.

Paul Vina


"Daniel Snooks" wrote in message
...
Paul Vina wrote
I doubt he'll get over 180x2. Very few amps will double in power when
you
halve the load.


Paul Vina

Very few? That's a bit harsh. Besides, we are throwing ratings around,
which
is significantly different than what may happen with real world output.
It
would help if the OP let us know who makes the amp he has.

I know that my two amps are rated conservatively at :

Zapco AG200 - 50 x 2 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 2 @ 2ohm
- 195 x 1 @ 4ohm

PPI PC450 - 50 x 4 @ 4ohm
- 100 x 4 @ 2ohm
- 200 x 2 @ 4ohm

You are suggesting that he will only realize ~75% power when bridging
(180
instead of 240). I very much doubt my Zapco is only good for 145 x 1 @
4ohm,
despite the ratings given.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Bill Pallies wrote
For some reason it didn't occur to me to actually look up the numbers when
I
first posted. The specs state 180w x 2 when bridged.

The amp is a Kenwood by the way. http://tinyurl.com/ub1b

-Bill

Heh ... well, there you have it :-)

The good news is that I don't have to change my advice from my previous
reply.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
news:Gawrb.113194$275.321464@attbi_s53...
It's been proven in just about every product test done on an amp.
Look at
the online reviews at CarSound for instance. Very few off them will
double.
I'm not saying that none of them do, but it's only the very best amps
that
will do it. Most mid and low end amp will current limit and prevent a
doubling.

Paul Vina

Very true indeed! Home amplifiers don't always do this either. Nelsen
Pass has a saying about amps and it deals with weight per wattage. A
mild mannered amp should weigh at least 75-80 pounds due to the amount
of copper in it. If its light, you aint getting what you think and a
great amp will double as the load halves. Digital and Class D amps are
all they're cracked up to be either...yet. I've heard the big dollar
bel~Cantos and a few of the others. I'll keep my house vice the two
mono-blocks.
John

Amps (home and car) dont have a specific way to rate them.

If I were an amp manufacturer I could rate my amps at .002%
or .02% or .2% or 2.0% or RMS or PEAK or whatever I wanted.
(or any other numbers you wanted to make up) (each rating
would give me a different power!!!!!)

comparing an amp rated at 100watts @ 0.0004% @ 4 ohms
to an amp rated at 400watts @ 0.2% @ 4 ohms
isnt a fair comparison without knowing alot more.

SO,
comparing an amp BRIDGED and NONBRIDGED could be the
same discrepency.... A manufacturer has the right (as does and amp
tester in a review) to rate the amp at any distortion and power output
they want to choose...

EVEN THOUGH an amp may ACTUALLY double its power
the ratings (or the ones that choose which ratings to publish) can
and usually do, show other wise.

Typicly bridging an amp is just hooking it up differently, if there is
10 volts on one channel and 10 volts on the other channel, then when
bridged there is 20 volts on one channel... NO OTHER CHANGE.

So, 10 volts into 4 ohms is 25watts
and, 20 volts into 4 ohms is 100watts

This is a simple matter of unhooking a 4 ohm speaker (or dummy load)
from one set of terminals and hooking it up to a different set of
terminals... WOULD THE
OUTPUT VOLTAGE DROP WHEN YOU DO THIS???
probably not.....

But on the other hand...
When a manufacture rates an amp or when a tech bench checks an amp
he hooks it up to a proper power supply and dummy load then reads output
voltage on one meter and percentage of distortion on another meter...He
usually chooses a high power rating while still a low distortion and he
chooses
when to stop turning up the volume knob and he writes down the rating.

THEN,
he hooks the amp up in a bridged configureation and does the same test over
again... He again chooses a point that suits him to stop turning the amp up
and
writes down the rating HE CHOOSES..... It may or may not be DOUBLE
the unbridged power..... but that doesnt mean the amp CANT double the power
(or more) if the tech had continued to turn up the volume and disreguaring
the
distortion ratings ect....

SO, in sumary, I think its kind of missleading to say an amp WONT double
its
power when bridging if you only look at the RATED SPECS.... The rated specs
are simply a rating and no indication of whether an amp CAN DOUBLE (or
more)..

Hope you guys can follow this....

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/


Midlant wrote:

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
news:Gawrb.113194$275.321464@attbi_s53...
It's been proven in just about every product test done on an amp.
Look at
the online reviews at CarSound for instance. Very few off them will
double.
I'm not saying that none of them do, but it's only the very best amps
that
will do it. Most mid and low end amp will current limit and prevent a
doubling.

Paul Vina

Very true indeed! Home amplifiers don't always do this either. Nelsen
Pass has a saying about amps and it deals with weight per wattage. A
mild mannered amp should weigh at least 75-80 pounds due to the amount
of copper in it. If its light, you aint getting what you think and a
great amp will double as the load halves. Digital and Class D amps are
all they're cracked up to be either...yet. I've heard the big dollar
bel~Cantos and a few of the others. I'll keep my house vice the two
mono-blocks.
John

Eddie Runner wrote
Amps (home and car) dont have a specific way to rate them.

If I were an amp manufacturer I could rate my amps at .002%
or .02% or .2% or 2.0% or RMS or PEAK or whatever I wanted.
(or any other numbers you wanted to make up) (each rating
would give me a different power!!!!!)

comparing an amp rated at 100watts @ 0.0004% @ 4 ohms
to an amp rated at 400watts @ 0.2% @ 4 ohms
isnt a fair comparison without knowing alot more.

SO,
comparing an amp BRIDGED and NONBRIDGED could be the
same discrepency.... A manufacturer has the right (as does and amp
tester in a review) to rate the amp at any distortion and power output
they want to choose...

EVEN THOUGH an amp may ACTUALLY double its power
the ratings (or the ones that choose which ratings to publish) can
and usually do, show other wise.

Typicly bridging an amp is just hooking it up differently, if there is
10 volts on one channel and 10 volts on the other channel, then when
bridged there is 20 volts on one channel... NO OTHER CHANGE.

So, 10 volts into 4 ohms is 25watts
and, 20 volts into 4 ohms is 100watts

This is a simple matter of unhooking a 4 ohm speaker (or dummy load)
from one set of terminals and hooking it up to a different set of
terminals... WOULD THE
OUTPUT VOLTAGE DROP WHEN YOU DO THIS???
probably not.....

But on the other hand...
When a manufacture rates an amp or when a tech bench checks an amp
he hooks it up to a proper power supply and dummy load then reads output
voltage on one meter and percentage of distortion on another meter...He
usually chooses a high power rating while still a low distortion and he
chooses
when to stop turning up the volume knob and he writes down the rating.

THEN,
he hooks the amp up in a bridged configureation and does the same test
over
again... He again chooses a point that suits him to stop turning the amp
up
and
writes down the rating HE CHOOSES..... It may or may not be DOUBLE
the unbridged power..... but that doesnt mean the amp CANT double the
power
(or more) if the tech had continued to turn up the volume and disreguaring
the
distortion ratings ect....

SO, in sumary, I think its kind of missleading to say an amp WONT double
its
power when bridging if you only look at the RATED SPECS.... The rated
specs
are simply a rating and no indication of whether an amp CAN DOUBLE (or
more)..

Hope you guys can follow this....

Thanks Eddie, followed it very well ... and the truth is that both my Zapco
and PPI are rated with a higher distortion allowance when bridged then in
stereo.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks

Followed that perfectly. Thanks Eddie!

So, um, if the component set is rated to handle 100w RMS, I'm still
wondering if I'm better off keeping the bridged configuration and thus
having plenty of power available to the speaker, or if I should give 60w to
the woofer and 60w to the tweeters (which is a lot for a tweeter, no?). This
is what I mean by "wasting" power.

-Bill

P.S. Also, I've heard that underpowering a speaker will blow it more than
overpowering one, right guys?

..... Guys?

.... Hello?

:-)



"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Amps (home and car) dont have a specific way to rate them.

If I were an amp manufacturer I could rate my amps at .002%
or .02% or .2% or 2.0% or RMS or PEAK or whatever I wanted.
(or any other numbers you wanted to make up) (each rating
would give me a different power!!!!!)

comparing an amp rated at 100watts @ 0.0004% @ 4 ohms
to an amp rated at 400watts @ 0.2% @ 4 ohms
isnt a fair comparison without knowing alot more.

SO,
comparing an amp BRIDGED and NONBRIDGED could be the
same discrepency.... A manufacturer has the right (as does and amp
tester in a review) to rate the amp at any distortion and power output
they want to choose...

EVEN THOUGH an amp may ACTUALLY double its power
the ratings (or the ones that choose which ratings to publish) can
and usually do, show other wise.

Typicly bridging an amp is just hooking it up differently, if there is
10 volts on one channel and 10 volts on the other channel, then when
bridged there is 20 volts on one channel... NO OTHER CHANGE.

So, 10 volts into 4 ohms is 25watts
and, 20 volts into 4 ohms is 100watts

This is a simple matter of unhooking a 4 ohm speaker (or dummy load)
from one set of terminals and hooking it up to a different set of
terminals... WOULD THE
OUTPUT VOLTAGE DROP WHEN YOU DO THIS???
probably not.....

But on the other hand...
When a manufacture rates an amp or when a tech bench checks an amp
he hooks it up to a proper power supply and dummy load then reads output
voltage on one meter and percentage of distortion on another meter...He
usually chooses a high power rating while still a low distortion and he
chooses
when to stop turning up the volume knob and he writes down the rating.

THEN,
he hooks the amp up in a bridged configureation and does the same test
over
again... He again chooses a point that suits him to stop turning the amp
up
and
writes down the rating HE CHOOSES..... It may or may not be DOUBLE
the unbridged power..... but that doesnt mean the amp CANT double the
power
(or more) if the tech had continued to turn up the volume and disreguaring
the
distortion ratings ect....

SO, in sumary, I think its kind of missleading to say an amp WONT double
its
power when bridging if you only look at the RATED SPECS.... The rated
specs
are simply a rating and no indication of whether an amp CAN DOUBLE (or
more)..

Hope you guys can follow this....

Eddie Runner
http://www.installer.com/tech/


Midlant wrote:

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
news:Gawrb.113194$275.321464@attbi_s53...
It's been proven in just about every product test done on an amp.
Look at
the online reviews at CarSound for instance. Very few off them will
double.
I'm not saying that none of them do, but it's only the very best amps
that
will do it. Most mid and low end amp will current limit and prevent a
doubling.

Paul Vina

Very true indeed! Home amplifiers don't always do this either. Nelsen
Pass has a saying about amps and it deals with weight per wattage. A
mild mannered amp should weigh at least 75-80 pounds due to the amount
of copper in it. If its light, you aint getting what you think and a
great amp will double as the load halves. Digital and Class D amps are
all they're cracked up to be either...yet. I've heard the big dollar
bel~Cantos and a few of the others. I'll keep my house vice the two
mono-blocks.
John

Bill Pallies wrote:

So, um, if the component set is rated to handle 100w RMS,

Speaker ratings are another thing that MAY or MAYNOT be worth
anything at all....

PRO speaker ratings will have a POWER and a frequency (pink noise)
and a time (1 hour or more) that the speaker can withstand that rated
power before they burn up.

CAR speakers generally are nothing like that at all, usually the power
ratings are mostly MADE UP and PLASTERED all over the box as
a selling tool.... If one company puts 150 watts on the front of the box
the next company may put 200 watts just for marketing purposes....

Also many companies have a 100watt, a 120 watt, a 175 watt and a 200
watt 6x9 all on the same motor, so you have to know the power ratings
are just for customers to say I WANT THE 200WATT.... ha ha ha

I'm still
wondering if I'm better off keeping the bridged configuration and thus
having plenty of power available to the speaker, or if I should give 60w to
the woofer and 60w to the tweeters (which is a lot for a tweeter, no?). This
is what I mean by "wasting" power.

With most component systems (woofer, xover and tweeter) you would NOT
want to hook a 60 watt amp to the woofer and a 60 watt amp to the tweeter.
the one 60 watt channel should work fine through the xover distributing the
sound correctly over the component set...

P.S. Also, I've heard that underpowering a speaker will blow it more than
overpowering one, right guys?

I wouldnt say that.
I might say that clipping blows more speakers that not clipping...!!
ha ha ha

Eddie Runner

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:04:36 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

With most component systems (woofer, xover and tweeter) you would NOT
want to hook a 60 watt amp to the woofer and a 60 watt amp to the tweeter.
the one 60 watt channel should work fine through the xover distributing the
sound correctly over the component set...

Eddie Runner

Speaking of crossovers:
As one Eddie to another, ( forgive a newbie ) why do I need
crossovers with the componet speakers and a crossover in the HU ?
Should I leave the HU crossover off and just let the speaker
crossovers connected to the external amp do the work?
The amp has high and low pass filters. Are those redundant with
speaker crossovers too?

TIA

Eddie

The speaker crossovers only take care of the mid/high transition. The ones
in the HU and the amp would be a low pass for the sub or a high pass to
protect the mid fromlow bass. The crossovers in the HU and the amp are also
basically the same except the units in the amp are usually a lot more
flexible.


Paul Vina



"Eddie" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:04:36 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

With most component systems (woofer, xover and tweeter) you would NOT
want to hook a 60 watt amp to the woofer and a 60 watt amp to the
tweeter.
the one 60 watt channel should work fine through the xover distributing
the
sound correctly over the component set...

Eddie Runner

Speaking of crossovers:
As one Eddie to another, ( forgive a newbie ) why do I need
crossovers with the componet speakers and a crossover in the HU ?
Should I leave the HU crossover off and just let the speaker
crossovers connected to the external amp do the work?
The amp has high and low pass filters. Are those redundant with
speaker crossovers too?

TIA

Eddie

Very few off them will double.
I'm not saying that none of them do,

Well I am.

Paul, you're absolutely right. Speakers will not double their output
because of the nonzero output impedance of every single amplifier on the
planet. Even if you were using superconductors, there'd still be an
output impedance.

And Daniel, 75% is hardly unreasonable.

The exception is the type of amplifier that adjusts its output voltage
based on switches and current demands (eg. JL amps).

Followed that perfectly. Thanks Eddie!

So, um, if the component set is rated to handle 100w RMS, I'm still
wondering if I'm better off keeping the bridged configuration and thus
having plenty of power available to the speaker, or if I should give 60w to
the woofer and 60w to the tweeters (which is a lot for a tweeter, no?). This
is what I mean by "wasting" power.

Yes, I understand what you meant by wasting power. Though it's not a
technically precise nomenclature, I'm sure everyone hear gets what
you're saying. So you're correct that the bridged situation is optimal
in that it provides more power to the speakers. The only benefit to
biamping in such a case is to have the ability to adjust crossovers and
level controls between the components. This ability shouldn't be
overlooked. But if it's not a feature you anticipate needing, then bridge.



-Bill

P.S. Also, I've heard that underpowering a speaker will blow it more than
overpowering one, right guys?

.... Guys?

... Hello?

:-)

Sarcasm detected.

Mark Zarella wrote
And Daniel, 75% is hardly unreasonable.

Point taken ... if measurments were taken with care to match the distortion
levels, I might only get 145W bridged.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks