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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Hi, My system is as follows: Densen beat b100 mk5 amp Cambridge audio azur 640c cd player Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano speaks QED xtube 300 speaker wire + banana plugs Anyways, recently a freind of mine was selling a pair of audioquest power cords (their best) with "rf stoppers".. Being a sceptic of "power cords" making a difference, etc, I still wanted to try it out so he gave htem to me for an audition... So I tried them out, thinking what could it possibley hurt? I don't if the following effects I've experienced are "placebo" or not: increase and more control in the bass, sweeter more extended treble, more discernable and detailed micro dynamics. It was as if it was a REAL upgrade of some sorts, a new cd player, a better amp ?? It was a pretty good system in the first place, but now the thing sounds like a $30000 setup! I am just thinking that "it's just freakin power, how could this be?" But here comes the most curious part.. The azur cd player made "tak tak tak" mechanical noise on some cd's, very AUDIBLE for instance with the philip glass "koyaanisqatsi" cd, so much that it distracted from the music on quiter passages. But with the audioquest used as power cord on the azur even this mechanical noise disappeared!! ... Now asking you guys (and why not gals?), any educated opinions as to how this is possible?? One last question: taking backup from my old CD's (notibly charlie haden "ballad of the fallen") I've encountered a very annoying problem that make these backups practically useless: On continuous pieces with track numbers changing in the middle my CD player plays the tracks normally, there is no cut off between tracks, the music does not cut, with the original. But with the CD-r versions the player cuts the music to give a two second in-between tracks silence which needles to say divides the music and spoils the whole experience, the whole concept of the CD. Not only the azur, but also a very expensice naim cd5 is doing the same thing with the cd-r? Any ideas as to how I can overcome this problem? SOme software (better then HP record now) or some special tye of cdr made for audio specifically?? Any help much apreeciated, much obliged, happy listening. |
#2
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
The cd bust be burned as "disc-at-once". Don't know what software you're
using. Might have to just specify zero spacing between songs. It certainly can be done. The power cord, on the other hand... I think you realize the power cord on your amp cannot make a mechanical difference in the operation of your cd player. Once in a while one sees a problem like this which is somewhat intermittent or just stops on it's own. I would suggest this is probably what happened. Most of us tech types would not accept any power cord as being able to make a sonic difference under any normal circumstances. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "Fella" wrote in message ... Hi, My system is as follows: Densen beat b100 mk5 amp Cambridge audio azur 640c cd player Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano speaks QED xtube 300 speaker wire + banana plugs Anyways, recently a freind of mine was selling a pair of audioquest power cords (their best) with "rf stoppers".. Being a sceptic of "power cords" making a difference, etc, I still wanted to try it out so he gave htem to me for an audition... So I tried them out, thinking what could it possibley hurt? I don't if the following effects I've experienced are "placebo" or not: increase and more control in the bass, sweeter more extended treble, more discernable and detailed micro dynamics. It was as if it was a REAL upgrade of some sorts, a new cd player, a better amp ?? It was a pretty good system in the first place, but now the thing sounds like a $30000 setup! I am just thinking that "it's just freakin power, how could this be?" But here comes the most curious part.. The azur cd player made "tak tak tak" mechanical noise on some cd's, very AUDIBLE for instance with the philip glass "koyaanisqatsi" cd, so much that it distracted from the music on quiter passages. But with the audioquest used as power cord on the azur even this mechanical noise disappeared!! ... Now asking you guys (and why not gals?), any educated opinions as to how this is possible?? One last question: taking backup from my old CD's (notibly charlie haden "ballad of the fallen") I've encountered a very annoying problem that make these backups practically useless: On continuous pieces with track numbers changing in the middle my CD player plays the tracks normally, there is no cut off between tracks, the music does not cut, with the original. But with the CD-r versions the player cuts the music to give a two second in-between tracks silence which needles to say divides the music and spoils the whole experience, the whole concept of the CD. Not only the azur, but also a very expensice naim cd5 is doing the same thing with the cd-r? Any ideas as to how I can overcome this problem? SOme software (better then HP record now) or some special tye of cdr made for audio specifically?? Any help much apreeciated, much obliged, happy listening. |
#3
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
The cd bust be burned as "disc-at-once". Thanks Mark for the answer. I am using "make an exact copy" option on the hp record now software. I could not see any option to "zero space" on that sofware. The manual does not help either. I guess I need to buy some software that specifically addresses that prob, though I need to find it first. I think you realize the power cord on your amp cannot make a mechanical difference in the operation of your cd player. I have *two* power cords with rf stoppers, one for the amp, the other for the CD player. The CD player is now dead quite mechanically on ALL problematic disks previously. I myself find this hard to beleive.. Most of us tech types would not accept any power cord as being able to make a sonic difference under any normal circumstances. Yes I was very much sceptical also of a power cord making a difference. But they are there. There is no mistaking it. I asked a freind to help me in on this. We did a blind test where the audioquest cords were applied (or not) and every time I knew the difference linstening blinfolded. The reason is that the differences are just huge, like I said, it's like having bought a new amp or some such. Even the presence is smoothed out (which is not all that a positive thing, mind you)... |
#4
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
"Fella" wrote ...
Thanks Mark for the answer. I am using "make an exact copy" option on the hp record now software. I could not see any option to "zero space" on that sofware. The manual does not help either. I guess I need to buy some software that specifically addresses that prob, though I need to find it first. Be aware that many mass-market applications (like the one you seem to be using) do NOT handle this properly (or allow you to manually fix it). There are commercial and shareware apps, however that likely handle it just fine. Yes I was very much sceptical also of a power cord making a difference. But they are there. There is no mistaking it. I asked a freind to help me in on this. We did a blind test where the audioquest cords were applied (or not) and every time I knew the difference linstening blinfolded. The reason is that the differences are just huge, like I said, it's like having bought a new amp or some such. Even the presence is smoothed out (which is not all that a positive thing, mind you)... Did you test the cords on the different componenets independently, CD player vs. power amp, etc.? I find the whole scenario quite preposterous myself unless your original cords are wimpy and/or loose, etc. It is not possible to do a real, valid double-blind a/b (or a/b/x) test with power cords because of the logistics involved. I still believe the effect is psychological. I loved Laurence Payne's statement: "Remembering that the prime objective of audiophile- level sound equipment is not to be good but to be expensive..." Perhaps real engineers are too practical to be willing to spend 4x, 8x, 16x the $$$ for the last 1-2% of improvement. Of course you realize that the equipment that was used to MAKE those recordings didn't include any power cords that cost more than $5. Or any "boutique" massive, gold-plated audio inter- connects either. Hope that doesn't spoil your quest. |
#5
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Richard Crowley wrote:
I find the whole scenario quite preposterous myself unless your original cords are wimpy and/or loose, etc. No they my original cords are perfectly OK, normal stock cords. But with power I was under the imression that either it is there or not. Even if they were "wimpy" isn't it so that they just convey the power, that's it.. ? It is not possible to do a real, valid double-blind a/b (or a/b/x) test with power cords because of the logistics involved. Well actulay a freind of mine helped on this. I was away from the lsitening room and he switched (or not, I didn't know) the audiophile power cords with the original stock ones. Then I came in and listened the same samples, blindfolded of course. And every time I knew which types of cords were being used. We did this some 10 times. Then we got tired of it. "Remembering that the prime objective of audiophile- level sound equipment is not to be good but to be expensive..." I can't speak for all audiophile equipment out there obviously, but for instance my sonus fabers costing around 3000 bucks are worth every penny, and I know just exactly what makes them expensive. If they were to be replaced by some, dunno, cervin wegas, perhaps, I would notice the difference from around the block. There were those days when some people claimed that all CD players sounded the same since it was a stream of ones and zeros in question, data, they said, it's the same thing from every player. Then came the concept of "jitter", something to measure the difference with. Most still would ask "what's jitter", and we're already moving ahead with the traditional CD format. But I digress. Of course you realize that the equipment that was used to MAKE those recordings didn't include any power cords that cost more than $5. Or any "boutique" massive, gold-plated audio inter- connects either. Well I know for a fact that studios, etc, use those b&w nautilus speakers for monitoring, etc, so I wouldn't bet on that. Hope that doesn't spoil your quest. I am not on a quest. Actualy quite distrubed by this audible difference, somewhat big difference this power cord makes. |
#6
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
In article ,
I don't if the following effects I've experienced are "placebo" or not: increase and more control in the bass, sweeter more extended treble, more discernable and detailed micro dynamics. It was as if it was a REAL upgrade of some sorts, a new cd player, a better amp ?? It was a pretty good system in the first place, but now the thing sounds like a $30000 setup! I am just thinking that "it's just freakin power, how could this be?" Unless there's something very odd (broken) about your system, I'd expect that a power-cord upgrade alone could not create any real changes of this sort, and I'd strongly favor the placebo / anticipation effect. It's possible that your system is subject to high levels of RF interference from a nearby transmitter, that the new power cable's "RF stopper" (very probably a $.25 ferrite or two) is helping keep the RF out of the electronics, that the electronics had poor RF rejection capability, and that you're hearing sonic changes which result from a reduction in noise and interference (intermodulation?) in your circuits. If you had disconnected and reconnected any of the interconnect cables when you replaced the power cables, you might be hearing some improvement as a result of the "wiping" of oxides off of the plugs and jacks. Overall, though, I think "placebo effect" is the most likely suspect. But here comes the most curious part.. The azur cd player made "tak tak tak" mechanical noise on some cd's, very AUDIBLE for instance with the philip glass "koyaanisqatsi" cd, so much that it distracted from the music on quiter passages. But with the audioquest used as power cord on the azur even this mechanical noise disappeared!! ... Now asking you guys (and why not gals?), any educated opinions as to how this is possible?? I've observed the tak-tak effect on one or two other players. It occured when the player was on a non-flat surface... the flexing of the chassis due to the player's weight put some twisting stress on the transport mechanism, and the upper portion of the magnetic clamp which holds the CD to the drive spindle was scraping against its retainer. When I moved the CD to a flat-and-level platform, the problem went away - the clamp "floated" far enough above its retainer that it was no longer scraping. I'd guess that your CD player may have a similar issue, and that by moving it (when you swapped cords) you shifted its position, levelling, or flexure enough to eliminate the unwanted contact between some moving and stationary parts. One last question: taking backup from my old CD's (notibly charlie haden "ballad of the fallen") I've encountered a very annoying problem that make these backups practically useless: On continuous pieces with track numbers changing in the middle my CD player plays the tracks normally, there is no cut off between tracks, the music does not cut, with the original. But with the CD-r versions the player cuts the music to give a two second in-between tracks silence which needles to say divides the music and spoils the whole experience, the whole concept of the CD. Not only the azur, but also a very expensice naim cd5 is doing the same thing with the cd-r? Any ideas as to how I can overcome this problem? SOme software (better then HP record now) or some special tye of cdr made for audio specifically?? Better software. You're burning the backup in "track at a time" mode. You need to rip and burn it in "disc at once" mode. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#7
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:53:39 +0300, Fella wrote:
Well actulay a freind of mine helped on this. I was away from the lsitening room and he switched (or not, I didn't know) the audiophile power cords with the original stock ones. Then I came in and listened the same samples, blindfolded of course. And every time I knew which types of cords were being used. We did this some 10 times. Then we got tired of it. Well OK. Repeat the test with ferrite rings, or with a simple capacitor circuit across the power input (can someone point us to a suitable spec?). Then, if the super-leads really still make a difference, buy and enjoy. |
#8
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Power cords improvement scenario (long)
Fella wrote: stuff deleted I am not on a quest. Actualy quite distrubed by this audible difference, somewhat big difference this power cord makes. The "difference (a) power cord makes" may be a bit of a red herring but I always say that if you are skeptical and seem to be hearing significant differences, then there has to be a reason whatever it may be. I suspect though that in your case, it may have nothing to do with "power" but rather with broadband noise travelling along the power cord and/or its shield. If what you have discribed is really true (and I have no doubt that you are relating your personal experience accurately), it sounds as though you may have a significant ground loop noise problem. I would presume that the so-called "RF stopper" part of the power cord is some kind of ferrite core or set of beads. There is a possibility that simply putting a ferrite clamp on your original power cord may have resulted in similar effects. Here is a possible scenario that you may be experiencing. Imagine a RF loop antenna. It starts in the power supply area of your amp or ground for the power cord, travels to the wall socket, through the wall or that same socket to the power cord of another component (say, your CD player), up the power cord to the component, through the component's ground to its interconnect shields, to the preamp's inputs, through the preamp's grounds to the preamp's output IC shields, and back to the main amp's signal inputs on the shield. Noise on the signal shield can transfer in part to the signal itself. More on this below. The sensitivity of a loop antenna is directly proportional to the area inside the loop. If you have 20 foot ICs going to an amp plugged in on the other side of the room resulting in the power line leg of the loop returning all the way to the service entrance and then back on a different line, it is obviously going to have far more noise levels than if all your components are plugged into the same outlet using short ICs. Anyway, somewhere there is a noise source. It may be external to the loop or it may be internal (CD players are notorious for emitting all kinds of digital/RF noise both directly to the air and through their signal grounds), or even due to inter-chassis potentials. The noise may be getting picked up from the air or is being inserted directly onto the power ground connection in a component supply, etc.. In any event, that noise has a complete loop (i.e., circuit) to follow along the ground loop and is managing to couple to your signal somewhere along that loop. By installing the ferrite RF block, you have basically opened that leg of the loop reducing the noise currents in the signal shields and grounds of your system. If the noise was being picked up in the air, the use of telescoping shields on your ICs or power cords would reduce this as well. Most commercial power cords are not shielded, and the ones that are have the shield connected at both ends. Many high end audio power cords use a telescoping shield that is only grounded at one end which is likely the case with your new one. Most low-end ICs do not use telescoping shields so again, noise picked up on the shield can travel off of both ends of the cable supporting the loop. You may not have telescoping shields on your ICs which would exacerbate the problem if the noise source is airborn. Although in theory, the currents in the shield of a coax due to noise are kept separate from those due to signal, it can be shown that it doesn't take a high amount of ground loop current with even a very low resistance where the RCA plug shell connects to the component's RCA jack, for minute amounts of the RF noise current to couple to the signal. Most audio inputs are not going to be linear up in the MHz region and the potential of Intermodulation distortion producing minute signal in the audible region is possible depending on the design of the component (e.g., 1MHz and 1.001MHz components of an RF hash will produce a 1KHz difference component). Many audio components are not designed to deal with this since, in theory, "there is no RF signal there to worry about" (i.e., everything is shielded). Anyway, the bottom line is that when you add the ferrite in one leg of the loop, you effectively open the loop and reduce the noise current. BTW, this is a systemic thing. It has a lot to do with how all of your components and accessories work together. The signal corruption may not be occuring at the amp although that may be one of the best places to block the RF loop. Also note that even though that cord improves things, if it were moved to another system, under certain circumstances it could actually make things worse since adding inductance to the cord can produce system and loop resonances. Even though the ferrite is eliminating many RF frequencies, if it happens to be that a resonance is close to a noise spectrum that one of your components is suceptable to, you may actually have the effect of increasing the problem. Anyway, I,ve seen some good papers showing the math on these issues (i.e., how a "poor" connection of only fractions of an ohm can still allow a significant amount of ground loop signal to couple to the main audio signal in a coax connection, the affects of ferrite resonances in an audio system power line loop, etc.) although I don't have any online references. An audiophile friend of mine who is also a high-speed digital engineer produced the following report that refers to some of these issues if you are interested: http://www.soundstage.com/articles/pete01.htm I have talked to some audiophile cable DIY types that claim that you can take a standard large guage Belkin shielded cable, disconnect the shield at one end and add a ferrite clamp and it can have effects similar (i.e., significant in many cases on high resolution systems) to some $2K-$3K cables which, to me anyway, makes a lot of sense. Changing cables can make a difference on high resolution systems depending on a lot of items but the biggest effects seem to come from larger guage cables, shielding (any type although telescoping is preferred), and RF blocking of some sort. However, if your cables are already big enough and you don't have ground loop problems, you may not see much (or any) difference. Although I may not have described things as accurately as I would like, I hope this gives you some ideas of what kinds of things might be contributing to the effects that you are hearing. All of this is only IMHO of course :-) - Jeff |
#9
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
"Fella" wrote ...
It is not possible to do a real, valid double-blind a/b (or a/b/x) test with power cords because of the logistics involved. Well actulay a freind of mine helped on this. Double-blind means that neither you nor your friend know which example you are listening to. I was away from the lsitening room and he switched (or not, I didn't know) the audiophile power cords with the original stock ones. Then I came in and listened the same samples, blindfolded of course. If you can't switch back and forth within a few seconds the ability to compare is very questionable. This is the kind of protocol (or lack of it) that makes the claims of the "golden ears" seem so questionable to scientific and engineering types. Of course you realize that the equipment that was used to MAKE those recordings didn't include any power cords that cost more than $5. Or any "boutique" massive, gold-plated audio inter- connects either. Well I know for a fact that studios, etc, use those b&w nautilus speakers for monitoring, etc, so I wouldn't bet on that. Exactly the point. The money is spent where it has the most benefit, on the transducers (microphones and speakers.) NOT on snake-oil boutique cables, etc. Hope that doesn't spoil your quest. I am not on a quest. Actualy quite distrubed by this audible difference, somewhat big difference this power cord makes. Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? |
#10
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Richard Crowley wrote:
Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? "my kind of beliefs" ?? What's with the hostility? If you have nothing to say, or if it is so that actualy are not able to understand what you read, just shut the f. up then. |
#11
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Power cords improvement scenario (long)
Jeff Wiseman wrote:
Changing cables can make a difference on high resolution systems depending on a lot of items but the biggest effects seem to come from larger guage cables, shielding (any type although telescoping is preferred), and RF blocking of some sort. Thank you Jeff. I've read your article (well, why not? and it seems it will eventually save me all that money. I will respond with more detail and update later. But for now, thanks again. |
#12
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:24:43 +0300, Fella wrote:
But here comes the most curious part.. The azur cd player made "tak tak tak" mechanical noise on some cd's, very AUDIBLE for instance with the philip glass "koyaanisqatsi" cd, so much that it distracted from the music on quiter passages. My Denon CD player comes up with that noise from time to time too. It mechanics of that player (CD tray, platter, motors, optics) are made by Sony and a couple of CD players having other brand names will use that too. It is a simple mechanical problem that boils down on a spring that opens the CD clamp when the drawer moves out. Changing the tension of the clamp is one way to cure the problem. But with the audioquest used as power cord on the azur even this mechanical noise disappeared!! ... Now asking you guys (and why not gals?), any educated opinions as to how this is possible?? What happens when you go back to the old cable? Norbert |
#13
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:24:43 +0300, Fella wrote:
... But with the CD-r versions the player cuts the music to give a two second in-between tracks silence which needles to say divides the music and spoils the whole experience, the whole concept of the CD. That's a problem with the software you used to copy or create the CD. I use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) for copying a CD and for extracting a CD to disk, (www.exactaudiocopy.org). It's freeware! Norbert |
#14
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Norbert Hahn wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:24:43 +0300, Fella wrote: What happens when you go back to the old cable? As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. My freind changed the cables 7 times and left the audioquests where they were 3 times. He didin't say anything just started the sample songs with my que. All other variables were the same (volume, speaker placement, etc). I was able differentiatewhich cords were being used each time without *any* hesitation. It seems I really do have a problem with the mains outlets in my living room (they do not have ground, for instance). THough they work perfectly OK for the TV, etc, and they do work for the intial system also. Jeff Wisemann had some sound ideas and I will be implementing them. Anyways, the phenomenon is so disturbing that I am seriously considering selling the "high end" stuff I have (though I like the way sonus fabers look) altogether and getting some off the shelf sony cd casette recorder with "detachable" speakers and mp3 compatibility, whatever, and get on with life. Amongst others the idea of putting a couple thousand dollars to some equipment that do not contains proper power cords with the package is disturbing. That these equipment are so sensitive that changing power cords alters their performance this much is also unnerving. |
#15
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:15:44 +0300, Fella wrote:
As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. My freind changed the cables 7 times and left the audioquests where they were 3 times. He didin't say anything just started the sample songs with my que. All other variables were the same (volume, speaker placement, etc). I was able differentiatewhich cords were being used each time without *any* hesitation. You obviously have Golden Ears. Have you considered a career writing for "Hi-Fi News" or whatever the favourite audiophile comic is called? |
#16
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Fella wrote:
snip It seems I really do have a problem with the mains outlets in my living room (they do not have ground, for instance). THough they work perfectly OK for the TV, etc, and they do work for the intial system also. snip That should wave a red flag. Do you have three prong sockets or two prong? Are your cords three prong or two? If two prong, are they polarized (one prong large)? There is the possibility for some really bad ground loops in a worst case situation with very unpredictable results. You ought to get the grounding straightened out and then repeat the listening tests. Could be all power cords will then have the equipment sounding the same; as they should. |
#17
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Richard Crowley wrote:
Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? "Fella" wrote ... "my kind of beliefs" ?? What's with the hostility? Not trying to be hostile. Perhaps you didn't notice the word "tech" in the name of this newsgroup. Just suggesting that you are more likely to find people who share your beliefs in botique power cables over in news:rec.audio.high-end or news:rec.audio.opinion etc. |
#18
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Richard Crowley wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote: Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? "Fella" wrote ... "my kind of beliefs" ?? What's with the hostility? Not trying to be hostile. Perhaps you didn't notice the word "tech" in the name of this newsgroup. Just suggesting that you are more likely to find people who share your beliefs in botique power cables over in news:rec.audio.high-end or news:rec.audio.opinion etc. I don't beleive in "botique" power cables. That's exactly why I am here to ask these questions. Learn to *read* or better just put me on killfile, OK? |
#19
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:24:43 +0300, Fella wrote:
Hi, My system is as follows: Densen beat b100 mk5 amp Cambridge audio azur 640c cd player Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano speaks QED xtube 300 speaker wire + banana plugs Anyways, recently a freind of mine was selling a pair of audioquest power cords (their best) with "rf stoppers".. Being a sceptic of "power cords" making a difference, etc, I still wanted to try it out so he gave htem to me for an audition... So I tried them out, thinking what could it possibley hurt? I don't if the following effects I've experienced are "placebo" or not: increase and more control in the bass, sweeter more extended treble, more discernable and detailed micro dynamics. It was as if it was a REAL upgrade of some sorts, a new cd player, a better amp ?? It was a pretty good system in the first place, but now the thing sounds like a $30000 setup! I am just thinking that "it's just freakin power, how could this be?" But here comes the most curious part.. The azur cd player made "tak tak tak" mechanical noise on some cd's, very AUDIBLE for instance with the philip glass "koyaanisqatsi" cd, so much that it distracted from the music on quiter passages. But with the audioquest used as power cord on the azur even this mechanical noise disappeared!! ... Now asking you guys (and why not gals?), any educated opinions as to how this is possible?? One last question: taking backup from my old CD's (notibly charlie haden "ballad of the fallen") I've encountered a very annoying problem that make these backups practically useless: On continuous pieces with track numbers changing in the middle my CD player plays the tracks normally, there is no cut off between tracks, the music does not cut, with the original. But with the CD-r versions the player cuts the music to give a two second in-between tracks silence which needles to say divides the music and spoils the whole experience, the whole concept of the CD. Not only the azur, but also a very expensice naim cd5 is doing the same thing with the cd-r? Any ideas as to how I can overcome this problem? SOme software (better then HP record now) or some special tye of cdr made for audio specifically?? Any help much apreeciated, much obliged, happy listening. Q1. If you want to test the effect of the RF stoppers on the power cables, turn the volume up and listen with no music playing. That is where the difference will lie - anything you hear in the music itself is you fooling yourself, I'm afraid. As to the question of the gaps between tracks on your CDR, when you record a CDR, inter-track gap is one of the parameters you specify - you must set it to zero, or this is what will happen. I don't know what software you are using, and whether it offers this facility - if it doesn't, you must find some that does. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#20
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Don Pearce wrote:
Q1. If you want to test the effect of the RF stoppers on the power cables, turn the volume up and listen with no music playing. With our without the audiophile cables there is dead, complete silence. |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:24:33 +0300, Fella wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: Q1. If you want to test the effect of the RF stoppers on the power cables, turn the volume up and listen with no music playing. With our without the audiophile cables there is dead, complete silence. Then with or without the audiophile cables, you have no problem. So the choice boils down to the way you see the world. Do you like value for money, or do you like to gaze fondly at an expensive purchase and bask? d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Fella wrote:
As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. I'm sure you verified this with a metrognome. (sic) |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:24:33 +0300, Fella wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Q1. If you want to test the effect of the RF stoppers on the power cables, turn the volume up and listen with no music playing. With our without the audiophile cables there is dead, complete silence. Do you like value for money, or do you like to gaze fondly at an expensive purchase and bask? If I did I wouldn't be asking these questions here. I hear a difference, though *I do not want* to hear it, even my freind (the one helped me do the blind tests) which thinks his ghettoblaster is "just fine" says I have a point. In anycase, thanks to everyone answering both the questions, both I deem as having been answered. Thanks for all the help. |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:15:44 +0300, Fella wrote:
It seems I really do have a problem with the mains outlets in my living room (they do not have ground, for instance). THough they work perfectly OK for the TV, etc, and they do work for the intial system also. Ah. Now, here in the UK we would never DREAM of using a power connection without a separate ground. In fact, there aren't any :-) Maybe the US system is different. But maybe it isn't THAT different. A properly organised grounding system is a first-resource weapon against the sort of noise that "veils" the sound. I wonder how many people who claim results from magic power cables are plugging into ungrounded power outlets? This is one area where some simple circuitry might actually make a notable difference. |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:09:24 +0300, Fella wrote:
I don't beleive in "botique" power cables. That's exactly why I am here to ask these questions. Learn to *read* or better just put me on killfile, OK? It's OK. Mention "magic" audiophile items, some people here just switch into attack mode. They don't listen long enough to discover what you're actually SAYING about the gear :-) |
#26
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Fella wrote in message . ..
As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. Really? So, you should be able to, using a good digital stopwatch with a 1/100th second resolution, precisely time the length of songs and show how, with one power cord, a song took, oh, 04:29.67, and that same song with a different power cord took maybe 04:15.83? This seems to be a rather extraordinary claim. I am wondering if you would not mind, in fact, doing these timings and posting the results for us to see. At the same time, if you would also not mind listing the specific pieces of music you used to do the timing. It just so happens that I have several different power cords here as well, and I am fortunate enough to have been lended a high-priced audiophile cable to evaluate. I have also done timings of this sort and have the data in hand and would be happy to present them. However, since you've already hinted that a power cord can make a difference in, to use your words, the timing and the beat, I am more than happy to wait until you post your results, because I don't want to seem like I'm trying to upstage you with my data when, certainly, you can provide good timing data of your own that would support these extraordinary claims. Most assuredly, we can say with great certainty that if the timing and beat changes, then the duration MUST change as well. Presenting clear timing differences like this will certainly lend enormous credence to these claims. We look forward to your timing measurements. What marvelous times we live in when just a power cable can change how fast something plays! |
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
Richard Crowley wrote: "Fella" wrote ... It is not possible to do a real, valid double-blind a/b (or a/b/x) test with power cords because of the logistics involved. Well actulay a freind of mine helped on this. Double-blind means that neither you nor your friend know which example you are listening to. That's true, I believe the OP had performed what would be called a simple "blind test". I was away from the lsitening room and he switched (or not, I didn't know) the audiophile power cords with the original stock ones. Then I came in and listened the same samples, blindfolded of course. If you can't switch back and forth within a few seconds the ability to compare is very questionable. This is the kind of protocol (or lack of it) that makes the claims of the "golden ears" seem so questionable to scientific and engineering types. I respectfully disagree. The longer the time between tests with a 100% match rate INCREASES the reliability. You want the high success rate with as much handicap added as possible. You add the blindfold as a handicap. You increase the time between tests as a handicap. For example, if you only sat down for 2 minutes each day and listened to the system not knowing which item was being used and could still identify what was being used 100% of the time, this would be a good indication that there was in fact a difference and it could be easily heard IMHO. If one day you were to hook up a set of 3way floor standing speakers and listen to them blind, and then the next day replace them with 2inch speakers out of an old transistor radio, most people would immediately tell the difference. Saying that the ability to compare the 2 inch speakers with the 3way systems is "very questionable" because "you couldn't switch back and forth within a few seconds" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The fact is that the difference would be so noticable that it didn't matter how long between tests, you could still tell. stuff deleted Hope that doesn't spoil your quest. I am not on a quest. Actualy quite distrubed by this audible difference, somewhat big difference this power cord makes. Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? The issue of hospitality on this group unfortunately appears to be a regular issue here :-S however, his choice to come here with the question would make sense. He has experienced a significant effect on his system when he changes out a cord. The effect is stiking enough to him, and so far has been 100% repeatable under a simple blind test for him where he seems to recognize that there must be a physical reason for it. Since he himself was skeptical to start with, he has come to a tech group where other skeptics would exist in the hopes of finding some physical clues as to why this "thing" really happens. Unfortunately, many critics who have never experienced some of these "effects" and have chosen not to believe that they can exist in any way, shape, or form, can only surmise that it is all a phsychologic preconception in the head of the listener--even when that listener was a skeptic himself to start with! To me, that seems quite unscientific. With extrememly small and subtle differences, yes, you need to deal with the phsychoacoustics of the situation. That just doesn't seem to be the experience of the OP To imply that the only reason he can correctly guess the cord in use 100% of the time in a blind test (even if it is not an ultra-controlled one) is totally due to his "beliefs" or some phsychological misdirection also doesn't seem to address any of his experiences very well--at least not as he described them. The real issue so often doesn't seem to be the OP "beliefs" but rather others who believe their theory-based knowledge totally compensates for their lack of experience in a given situation (or that their given experience can be extrapolated to ALL other experiences). I have yet to see a skeptic who hasn't had a major change in attitude when sat down in front of a significantly high resolving and well balanced audio system and given the opportunity to experience comparing different components that "shouldn't" affect the sound. Also, there is a lot of "snake-oil" components in the industry and many charlitans. This ticks off a lot of people understandibly and I expect that is what may drive some of the hostility when certain "magic" components are discussed. But when a person with an $80K system decides to add a $3K power cord, just because someone thinks that it is a total extravegance and waste of money does NOT mean that cord won't enhance or change the sound of that system in a desirable way. It can (and does) in many cases make a difference. The original poster's belief has nothing to do with the original questions. He came to this forum to find some clues as to why he got a particular effect on his system. A lot of what he is being told is, in so many words, "you imagined it". From my personal experience with high-end systems, I doubt that very much. - Jeff |
#28
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Fella wrote: Norbert Hahn wrote: On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:24:43 +0300, Fella wrote: What happens when you go back to the old cable? As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. My freind changed the cables 7 times and left the audioquests where they were 3 times. He didin't say anything just started the sample songs with my que. All other variables were the same (volume, speaker placement, etc). I was able differentiatewhich cords were being used each time without *any* hesitation. As has been asked already, have you actually measured the timing issues? Timing is something that is easy to mistake without some kind of reference to measure from. There seems to be a bunch of possible noise sensitive attributes of your CD player. Borrow a different type from someone else and try it in your system. See if you get similar results. A flakey supply might be exacerbating other issues. Just a guess though. It seems I really do have a problem with the mains outlets in my living room (they do not have ground, for instance). THough they work perfectly OK for the TV, etc, and they do work for the intial system also. This does lend some fuel to the ground loop theories. Anyways, the phenomenon is so disturbing that I am seriously considering selling the "high end" stuff I have (though I like the way sonus fabers look) altogether and getting some off the shelf sony cd casette recorder with "detachable" speakers and mp3 compatibility, whatever, and get on with life. The sonus fabers, in a way, may be part of your "problem" as they are excellant (and fairly revealing) speakers. If you had far lesser speakers, you might not be hearing the audible differences. But if you like their sound, giving them up would be a shame. If you can live with the sound of MP3 though, that could same you some grief (and a lot of $$ too) Amongst others the idea of putting a couple thousand dollars to some equipment that do not contains proper power cords with the package is disturbing. That these equipment are so sensitive that changing power cords alters their performance this much is also unnerving. Remember, if it is a noise loop problem (possibly RF in nature), it's not so much changing the cord as adding some RF protection. How many components come with surge supressors built in? A lot of audio stuff isn't set up to handle large amounts of ground loop noise. - Jeff |
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
Jeff Wiseman wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote: "Fella" wrote ... It is not possible to do a real, valid double-blind a/b (or a/b/x) test with power cords because of the logistics involved. Well actulay a freind of mine helped on this. Double-blind means that neither you nor your friend know which example you are listening to. That's true, I believe the OP had performed what would be called a simple "blind test". It is possible to do a real, valid DBT with power cords. I was away from the lsitening room and he switched (or not, I didn't know) the audiophile power cords with the original stock ones. Then I came in and listened the same samples, blindfolded of course. If you can't switch back and forth within a few seconds the ability to compare is very questionable. This is the kind of protocol (or lack of it) that makes the claims of the "golden ears" seem so questionable to scientific and engineering types. I respectfully disagree. The longer the time between tests with a 100% match rate INCREASES the reliability. You want the high success rate with as much handicap added as possible. You add the blindfold as a handicap. You increase the time between tests as a handicap. For example, if you only sat down for 2 minutes each day and listened to the system not knowing which item was being used and could still identify what was being used 100% of the time, this would be a good indication that there was in fact a difference and it could be easily heard IMHO. If one day you were to hook up a set of 3way floor standing speakers and listen to them blind, and then the next day replace them with 2inch speakers out of an old transistor radio, most people would immediately tell the difference. Saying that the ability to compare the 2 inch speakers with the 3way systems is "very questionable" because "you couldn't switch back and forth within a few seconds" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The fact is that the difference would be so noticable that it didn't matter how long between tests, you could still tell. 'Quick switching' means that the time it takes to do the switch from A to B, is very short. It does not refer to the amount of time one listens to A or B. Quick switching has been shown to be a more sensitive means for detecting subtle differences, as it maximizes the power of audio memory. Similarly, short listening times, using the same material for A and B, are usually used in studies of audio perception. But there is no 'rule' that says you can't use a listening session (A) that is hours or days long, before switching to the second listening session (B). Nor does the switching have to be quick. Speakers can be expected to sound different; blind comparison is used by Harman-Kardon/JBL in speaker development, to sidestep the effects of appearance and foreknowledge on perception of *quality* as well as difference. H-K has a rather elaborate facility for doing such comparisons, involving relatively 'quick' switching, where speakers meachanically swapped into the listening positoin. stuff deleted Hope that doesn't spoil your quest. I am not on a quest. Actualy quite distrubed by this audible difference, somewhat big difference this power cord makes. Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? The issue of hospitality on this group unfortunately appears to be a regular issue here :-S however, his choice to come here with the question would make sense. He has experienced a significant effect on his system when he changes out a cord. The effect is stiking enough to him, and so far has been 100% repeatable under a simple blind test for him where he seems to recognize that there must be a physical reason for it. Since he himself was skeptical to start with, he has come to a tech group where other skeptics would exist in the hopes of finding some physical clues as to why this "thing" really happens. INdeed, and if he is skeptical, he will remain skeptical that a 'simple blind test' is sufficient to settle the matter. 100% repeatable ID could be a real, obvious difference -- or it could be a real bias. Both could easily render 100% repeatability. Two avenues of further investigation would be 1) make the test more stringent (double blind) 2) measure the characterstics of the cords. A real, obvious difference should have a real, obvious measurable effect. It's not rocket science, it's a power cord. Unfortunately, many critics who have never experienced some of these "effects" and have chosen not to believe that they can exist in any way, shape, or form, can only surmise that it is all a phsychologic preconception in the head of the listener--even when that listener was a skeptic himself to start with! To me, that seems quite unscientific. If so, then you don't understand the nature of perceptual biases. THey need not be conscious, and usually aren't. With extrememly small and subtle differences, yes, you need to deal with the phsychoacoustics of the situation. That just doesn't seem to be the experience of the OP Competent power cords are not expected from basic acoustic/electical principles to sound different; speakers are. To imply that the only reason he can correctly guess the cord in use 100% of the time in a blind test (even if it is not an ultra-controlled one) is totally due to his "beliefs" or some phsychological misdirection also doesn't seem to address any of his experiences very well--at least not as he described them. To imply that that's the *only* reason is incorrect; to imply that it is a reason that hasn't yet been adequately ruled out, is correct. As for the rest, the vast majority of audiophile forums, led by the mainstream high-end press, are *hostile* to the idea of controlled comparison...they consider a protocol which has been scientifically vetted for decades in the field of psychoacoustics, to be *suspect*. -- -S. "We started to see evidence of the professional groupie in the early 80's. Alarmingly, these girls bore a striking resemblance to Motley Crue." -- David Lee Roth |
#30
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Richard Crowley wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote: Are you aware that there are other forums (newsgroups, mailing-lists, blogs, etc.) where people with your kind of beliefs find it more hospitable? "Fella" wrote ... "my kind of beliefs" ?? What's with the hostility? Not trying to be hostile. Perhaps you didn't notice the word "tech" in the name of this newsgroup. Just suggesting that you are more likely to find people who share your beliefs in botique power cables over in news:rec.audio.high-end I can assure you that such beleifs would not go unchallenged on rec.audio.high-end, which hosts a vigorous skeptical subcommmunity. or news:rec.audio.opinion A completely different kettle of kooks from r.a.h-e ; -- -S. "We started to see evidence of the professional groupie in the early 80's. Alarmingly, these girls bore a striking resemblance to Motley Crue." -- David Lee Roth |
#31
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Fella wrote:
As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. I need to slow down some banjo pieces so I can transcribe them. What power cord would result in a 50% speed decrease? - Village Idiot |
#32
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
wrote:
Fella wrote: As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. I need to slow down some banjo pieces so I can transcribe them. What power cord would result in a 50% speed decrease? - Village Idiot This is one of the most common questions we get at the Electrical Institution. It's in the Electrical Institution FAQ (http://powertothepeople.com/FAQ), but I'll repeat it he Q10.15: Why do I need two wires to only carry one voltage? A10.15: You don't - each wire only carries 1/2 the required voltage. That way, we at the electric company can sell you twice the wire you'd need if it all came thru one bigger wire. Just use one of the two wires in the power cord (that go to the flat blade thingies). Leave the one going to the round thingy alone, since it's a ground wire for your safety and protection. Only the two wires going to the flat blades carry the electricity - all 120 volts of it. If you only use one wire instead of two, simple math says you will only get half the electricity, therby decreasing the speed of the music. Make sure you disconnect the wire from the wall socket BEFORE attempting this modification. If the wire only has two flat blades of equal size, it's called a balanced system, and either blade may be safely cut, which will indeed result in a noticable difference to your sound, improving much of the music being offered these days. If one blade is noticably bigger than the other, it's an unbalanced system; the big blade puts out 70 volts and the little blade puts out 50 volts, so you'll hafta retune your banjo. Most hardware stores sell a little balanced to unbalanced orange or gray converter for about 79 cents. The Audioquest version is black and sells for $899 and is a much better value than the cheapie 79 cent unit. (I tried to be the Village Idiot, but the test was too hard.) Finally, before you all jump my ass, this is supposed to humor. If you took me seriously, you have no business being around electricity of any type. The only thing that wasn't nonsense was about not cutting the wire going to the round thingy; that was serious. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ |
#33
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
"Jeff Wiseman" wrote ...
The issue of hospitality on this group unfortunately appears to be a regular issue here :-S however, his choice to come here with the question would make sense. He has experienced a significant effect on his system when he changes out a cord. Unless you believe his posting from this morning in r.a.p where he appears to reveal himself as a troll by saying "Naa, I was just kidding you guys...." |
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Jeff Wiseman" wrote ... The issue of hospitality on this group unfortunately appears to be a regular issue here :-S however, his choice to come here with the question would make sense. He has experienced a significant effect on his system when he changes out a cord. Unless you believe his posting from this morning in r.a.p where he appears to reveal himself as a troll by saying "Naa, I was just kidding you guys...." What is with this animosity!!?? You *deliberately* quote me out of context! You know for sure that that reply was directed towards people actually making fun of the high-end music setup I had listed. You must know that since you've read my reply to the two clowns, you must know what those clowns wrote. WHY!!!!!!!??????? are you bent on turning this into a flame war?? What a disgusting, small-soul little fart extension you turned out to be! BE GONE!! you vile cockroach! IN ANY CASE! I got my answer from Jeff. I am in the process of implementing a grounded extension (from the kitchen) to the living room exclusively for the stereo system. I thanked Jeff. THAT'S IT! I am gone. NEVER will I ask anything here again. But if you keep up with this foul play I will beat you senseless with a crazy stick. |
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:41:14 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: I respectfully disagree. The longer the time between tests with a 100% match rate INCREASES the reliability. You want the high success rate with as much handicap added as possible. You add the blindfold as a handicap. You increase the time between tests as a handicap. For example, if you only sat down for 2 minutes each day and listened to the system not knowing which item was being used and could still identify what was being used 100% of the time, this would be a good indication that there was in fact a difference and it could be easily heard IMHO. You have misunderstood the function of double blind testing. A properly run double blind test is set up to make hearing a difference as *easy* as possible. If that means rapid switching, then so be it. If you deliberately introduce impediments like delays, then you can't be sure if a null result is real, or due to interfering factors. Your reference to a blindfold above is *not* the same handicap as increasing the time between tests. All you are trying to prevent in a double blind test is sighted bias, either from the subject or the proctor. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#36
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Dick Pierce wrote:
Fella wrote in message . .. As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. Really? We look forward to your timing measurements. What marvelous times we live in when just a power cable can change how fast something plays! Before bidding a fond farewell to you cross bunch of know-it-all electrical prodigy einstein wannabees (whatever) this "beat" and "timing" issue which you obvioulsy gladly misunderstood, and stretched to the opposite end with stopwatches, etc, is ... or *was* about wow & flutter per se (I guess) and not about actual duration of any of the songs on CD. The "timing" the inner timing, of the songs became right, (werre not right) as it were. Reading the words "wow % flutter" on CD I know some of you out there will be very very angry indeed and deem me a troll again, but I just wanted to perhaps say my say on this point (as I see some smart ass(hole) replies out there asking "what kind of a power cord I need to use to make a song %50 slower" gobbledygook) and clarify it for those who *might* be inclined to treat it as some communique to understand and not something to go all haywire and VERY VERY ANGRY about. In anycase, I am happy to report that a heavy-duty, well shielded and *grounded* extension cord strecthed in from a grounded outlet in kitchen has made all the difference. I know the audiophile cord was not mysteriously adding grounding to the equation but it no longer has an audible effect on the system. And yes, the system sounds sweet, it sounds good, it sounds detailed, and precise and involving and musical. So there. PS: I will try so that this is my last message here but any intentional provocations, misrepresentations, below-the-belt demogogy might get me reactional enough to trigger a response. I'd much rather end this thread here and thank those who helped out on the issue. |
#37
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Beliefs and hospitality for blind testing :-)
"Jeff Wiseman" wrote in message
That's true, I believe the OP had performed what would be called a simple "blind test". Agreed. Therefore the so-called test was critically flawed and its results are irrelevant to a discussion of improvements in sound quality. Richard Crowley wrote: If you can't switch back and forth within a few seconds the ability to compare is very questionable. This is the kind of protocol (or lack of it) that makes the claims of the "golden ears" seem so questionable to scientific and engineering types. Agreed. It is well known that amazingly-large differences can go undetected when the time between presentation of alternatives is more than a few seconds. I respectfully disagree. The following pargraph is just a straw man argument, and shows zero respect for anybody's viewpoint: If one day you were to hook up a set of 3way floor standing speakers and listen to them blind, and then the next day replace them with 2inch speakers out of an old transistor radio, most people would immediately tell the difference. Saying that the ability to compare the 2 inch speakers with the 3way systems is "very questionable" because "you couldn't switch back and forth within a few seconds" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The fact is that the difference would be so noticable that it didn't matter how long between tests, you could still tell. Please let me *respectfully* point out that this thread started out as discussion of power cords, not transistor radio speakers versus good speaker systems. The longer the time between tests with a 100% match rate INCREASES the reliability. Say what? You want the high success rate with as much handicap added as possible. I think that first we'd like to see *any* success rate at all, in a power cord comparison. You add the blindfold as a handicap. What blindfold? You increase the time between tests as a handicap. Since when are we trying to get a negative result by bogus means? For example, if you only sat down for 2 minutes each day and listened to the system not knowing which item was being used and could still identify what was being used 100% of the time, this would be a good indication that there was in fact a difference and it could be easily heard IMHO. But that's irrelevant to the problem at hand. The discussion at hand is about power cords, and it is well known that if you do a proper listening test, power cords comparisions yield negative results. The issue of hospitality on this group unfortunately appears to be a regular issue here That might be because some people have an odd idea of hospitality. They equate hospitality with going out of your way to convince someone of a false fact. :-S however, his choice to come here with the question would make sense. He has experienced a significant effect on his system when he changes out a cord. Wrong. He did a bogus listening test and is no doubt deceiving himself as a result. The effect is stiking enough to him, and so far has been 100% repeatable under a simple blind test for him where he seems to recognize that there must be a physical reason for it. But, as a rule, single blind tests aren't blind tests at all. They have a built-in defect. Since he himself was skeptical to start with, he has come to a tech group where other skeptics would exist in the hopes of finding some physical clues as to why this "thing" really happens. The most likely explanation has been given. He did not do a proper listening test. Unfortunately, many critics who have never experienced some of these "effects" and have chosen not to believe that they can exist in any way, shape, or form, can only surmise that it is all a phsychologic preconception in the head of the listener--even when that listener was a skeptic himself to start with! One major reason why many critics have not heard these effects is that they did proper listening tests. Remember, the OP was talking about power cords, not comparing transistor radio speakers to proper high fidelity speakers. To me, that seems quite unscientific. To me, equating a comparison of power cords to a comparison of transistor radio speakers to proper high fidelity speakers is worse than unscientific - it's just a word game that wastes our time and efforts. With extrememly small and subtle differences, yes, you need to deal with the psychoacoustics of the situation. We're not really talking about psychoacoustics here, we're talking about experimental design. Therefore, introduction of a widely-divergent topic such as psychoacoustics would appear to be a red herring. That just doesn't seem to be the experience of the OP The experience of the OP was based on a grossly flawed listening test. 'Nuff said. To imply that the only reason he can correctly guess the cord in use 100% of the time in a blind test (even if it is not an ultra-controlled one) is totally due to his "beliefs" or some phsychological misdirection also doesn't seem to address any of his experiences very well--at least not as he described them. Wrong. The OP did not have the reliable experience that he seems to have thought he did, because he did an inherently-flawed listening test. The real issue so often doesn't seem to be the OP "beliefs" but rather others who believe their theory-based knowledge totally compensates for their lack of experience in a given situation (or that their given experience can be extrapolated to ALL other experiences). I've done so-called listening tests that produced positive outcomes that disagreed with established audio theories as I understood them at the time. Then I realized that the listening test in question was not a proper listening test. When I repeated the exprience under proper, relevant test conditions the outcome changed dramatically. When I improved my understanding of audio theory by independent means, the theory and my observations agreed. I have yet to see a skeptic who hasn't had a major change in attitude when sat down in front of a significantly high resolving and well balanced audio system and given the opportunity to experience comparing different components that "shouldn't" affect the sound. You've obviously been dealing with the wrong people. Also, there is a lot of "snake-oil" components in the industry and many charlitans. This ticks off a lot of people understandibly and I expect that is what may drive some of the hostility when certain "magic" components are discussed. But when a person with an $80K system decides to add a $3K power cord, just because someone thinks that it is a total extravegance and waste of money does NOT mean that cord won't enhance or change the sound of that system in a desirable way. Now that's true. What is relevant is the fact that power cords are rarely a source of audible problems in audio systems. It can (and does) in many cases make a difference. Not at all. In a few rare circumstances it might make a difference. However, in those cases there can be serious questions about system design and setup. The original poster's belief has nothing to do with the original questions. Sure it does. It biased him towards perceiving a postive outcome in a defective listening test. The nature of the listening test defect is that it is prone to be affected by the beliefs of the people performing it. He came to this forum to find some clues as to why he got a particular effect on his system. The most likely reason is the obvious defect in the so-called listening test. A lot of what he is being told is, in so many words, "you imagined it". No, its more like "you did a listening test that is prone to tell you that your pre-existing beliefs are correct". From my personal experience with high-end systems, I doubt that very much. Jeff, you've already admitted to your lack of experience to high end systems doing proper listening tests, so your experience is irrelevant to a discussion of sound quality. |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:49:36 +0300, Fella wrote:
Dick Pierce wrote: Fella wrote in message . .. As curious as it may seem, the problem reappears. The timing of the songs change also from cable to cable, the beat changes, with the audioquest some songs slow down, others fasten up. This was one of the contributing reasons why I was able to discern with 100 certainty everytime which cable was being used in the blind tests. Really? We look forward to your timing measurements. What marvelous times we live in when just a power cable can change how fast something plays! Before bidding a fond farewell to you cross bunch of know-it-all electrical prodigy einstein wannabees (whatever) this "beat" and "timing" issue which you obvioulsy gladly misunderstood, and stretched to the opposite end with stopwatches, etc, is ... or *was* about wow & flutter per se (I guess) and not about actual duration of any of the songs on CD. The "timing" the inner timing, of the songs became right, (werre not right) as it were. Reading the words "wow % flutter" on CD I know some of you out there will be very very angry indeed and deem me a troll again, but I just wanted to perhaps say my say on this point (as I see some smart ass(hole) replies out there asking "what kind of a power cord I need to use to make a song %50 slower" gobbledygook) and clarify it for those who *might* be inclined to treat it as some communique to understand and not something to go all haywire and VERY VERY ANGRY about. In anycase, I am happy to report that a heavy-duty, well shielded and *grounded* extension cord strecthed in from a grounded outlet in kitchen has made all the difference. I know the audiophile cord was not mysteriously adding grounding to the equation but it no longer has an audible effect on the system. And yes, the system sounds sweet, it sounds good, it sounds detailed, and precise and involving and musical. So there. PS: I will try so that this is my last message here but any intentional provocations, misrepresentations, below-the-belt demogogy might get me reactional enough to trigger a response. I'd much rather end this thread here and thank those who helped out on the issue. I think it would probably better for your self esteem, and everybody else's aching ribs if you steered clear of ec.audio.tech. This is clearly a forum in which you are way out of your depth, and no amount of angry yelling at everybody else who can swim is going to help you. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
Don Pearce wrote:
I think it would probably better...if you steered clear of ec.audio.tech. Wow! We agree on something. This is clearly a forum in which you are way out of your depth, Well obviously I am not an electrical engineer and that was the *reason* in the first place why I came to ask these questions. Being a cross bunch of insincere never-will-be's *of course* my sincerity was questioned and agnry retaliations, ridicule, whatever was spewn forth. In matters of "self esteem" I suggest that you guys take a long hard look in the mirror before tending to your ribs, since I somehow sense an unhealthy amount of "envy" (more or less) behind the ridicule and anger that my "trolling" provoked. |
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A Couple of questions on audioquest power cords and CD-Rs
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:32:23 +0300, Fella wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: I think it would probably better...if you steered clear of ec.audio.tech. Wow! We agree on something. This is clearly a forum in which you are way out of your depth, Well obviously I am not an electrical engineer and that was the *reason* in the first place why I came to ask these questions. Being a cross bunch of insincere never-will-be's *of course* my sincerity was questioned and agnry retaliations, ridicule, whatever was spewn forth. In matters of "self esteem" I suggest that you guys take a long hard look in the mirror before tending to your ribs, since I somehow sense an unhealthy amount of "envy" (more or less) behind the ridicule and anger that my "trolling" provoked. No, I don't think so. The point is that it should have been clear to you within a very few posts that you wee suggesting things that were patently ridiculous. At that point, a sensible person would have stepped back and gone to do some homework. Instead you persisted and peopled got ****ed off with you. Quite some time ago I gave you a sensible answer to your power cord question, and suggested a test that would establish whether it made things better. You did it (well done) and reported back that there was no difference with or without the AQ power cord. This was as everybody here would have predicted. But you couldn't let it go at that and persisted with semi-mystical claims of effects that could never be attributable to the cord and were clearly a figment of your imagination; and I'm not being insulting - I guarantee that everybody here has fallen victim to this at some time or other. It is just that as your technical knowledge grows, you understand better what can cause which effect and you know when to doubt your sensual interpretations. So consider this a lesson learned - boutique power cords do nothing. Everybody here knows they do nothing. Everybody who makes them knows they do nothing. We here get annoyed with the vendors of such things, and we get annoyed with the victims of such vendors when they appear here extolling the virtues of these cords. When you persist in the face of the evidence, and assurances of the experts here (and there are a few) then yes, you can expect ultimately to have ridicule heaped on you. There are two ways you can deal with it. Unfortunately you appear to be adopting plan B. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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