Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

Hi Charles,

I am afraid that we would need more information to give you any useful
advice, other than to go to;

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

There is another site, but it rates the Carver TX-11 as high as the Sansui
TU-717, I have owned both, I sent my Carver to the factory, they sent it
back saying there was nothing wrong with it, other than the fact that it
sucked! Stereo Review had written a glowing article about it, but it was
absolute junk. It was worse than junk because it cost a lot of money. But I
digress...

None of them sound as good as would be nice out of the box. Some of the
Kenwood's used Elna caps which, while they are not really great caps, gave
them a nice warm sound. One of the biggest questions is what do you desire
most, sound quality, distance reception, or if in a city, multipath
rejection? If you can figure out what you need, http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/
should have the answer for you.

If you buy a tuner and it really does not seem to be as good as they
implied, my guess is that someone either cleaned the tuner with something
that left a sticky residue on it, and then it collected dust, or there is a
problem with the tuner, often people tweak the caps on the tuner, get lost
as they do not know how to tweak electronics, or some such. The guys on that
site, IMO, have always been dead on when they called something. So, if it
does not seem to measure up, it may need to be serviced, and I would use
someone they recommend, were I not a technician myself. :-)
--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01...
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

Look at the link below
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/
The old 70's are the best tuners. But they will only be as good as the
station transmitting in your area.

"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01...
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are
important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting
a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are
distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if
you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an
important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling
prices for many tuners.

And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an
outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner
attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a
super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire
that now comes with most new tuners.

I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the
1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the
tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners
will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum
Dynalab and Fanfare.

In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than
analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as
often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one
of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and
alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase.

There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am
particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of
SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final
design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a
particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The
Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if
it is re-acquainted with James for updates.

If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make
OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will
out-perform them.

Charles Epstein wrote:
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

My favorite sound currently available tuner is the Parasound TDQ150. It is
relatively simple design, using one of the newer Sanyo multiplex decoders
that don't need periodic adjustment of the VCO (a 456kHz ceramic resonator
is used in a variation of a VC XO circuit). It uses a single transistor line
amp; no ICs in the audio path. It is not the most selective tuner around,
but RF performance is fair.
I agree with the other posters, that the older tuners are generally very
good. My favorites are the Luxman T110, T88V, the McIntosh MR78, and some of
the Sansui upper tier tuners.
I can't comment on the Fanfare tuners, but I did have the Magnum Dynalab
MD100 and the MD102, along with the
Linn Kudos, and neither of them sounded as good as either the Luxman tuners,
or the Parasound tuner, for that matter.
Even the Cambridge Audio T500 sounds better than the Dynalab and Linn
tuners, but the stereo separation is nothing to write home about (43dB,
after separation adjustment). The AM broadcast band performance, with the
dual conversion design, however, is very good.
Since folks have different preferences, it is good to actually audition the
tuner in your own system.

Pete

Tim Britt wrote in message
news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52...
A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are
important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting
a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are
distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if
you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an
important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling
prices for many tuners.

And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an
outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner
attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a
super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire
that now comes with most new tuners.

I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the
1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the
tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners
will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum
Dynalab and Fanfare.

In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than
analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as
often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one
of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and
alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase.

There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am
particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of
SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final
design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a
particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The
Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if
it is re-acquainted with James for updates.

If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make
OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will
out-perform them.

Charles Epstein wrote:
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for.
Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right,
though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

In general 1980's and early to mid 90's Denon tuners
give good all around results. They aren't the best at
anything. But they are a very good mix of all design
aspects. Which give a result that is satisfying.

Even the lower end tuners from Denon are not bad at
all.

Dennis

I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my
youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black
Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice
looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more reserved
in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in
particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if
memory serves.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52...
A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are
important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting
a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are
distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if
you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an
important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling
prices for many tuners.

And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an
outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner
attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a
super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire
that now comes with most new tuners.

I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the
1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the
tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners
will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum
Dynalab and Fanfare.

In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than
analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as
often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one
of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and
alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase.

There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am
particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of
SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final
design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a
particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The
Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if
it is re-acquainted with James for updates.

If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make
OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will
out-perform them.

Charles Epstein wrote:
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for.
Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right,
though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

You can get the older FM tuners for peanuts. I have too many. I couldn't
resist a Yamaha CT-810 on e-bay for $35. It sounds great, really super.
On close stations it matches the best Sansui or Magnum Dyanlab I use as
bench marks.

"Lou" wrote in message
...
I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my
youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black
Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice
looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more
reserved
in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in
particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if
memory serves.

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:Iq_ob.63247$9E1.272404@attbi_s52...
A wonderful resource and wealth of information on tuners can be found at
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ This site goes over the specs that are
important and what performance factors you should consider in selecting
a tuner. For example, if you live in the boonies and FM stations are
distant and sparse, sensitivity is an important factor. Conversely, if
you live in an urban area with many FM stations, selectivity is an
important factor. And this site lists the current average eBay selling
prices for many tuners.

And, the most important part of any tuner is hooking it up to an
outdoor, directional FM antenna (if possible). A merely average tuner
attached to a directional outdoor FM antenna will ALWAYS outperform a
super tuner hooked up to just a folded dipole or small piece of wire
that now comes with most new tuners.

I think you'll find general agreement that vintage tuners from the
1970's and 1980's are better-built and will outperform most all the
tuners being built today. In fact, some of the premium vintage tuners
will outperform even the newest current ones from Accuphase, Magnum
Dynalab and Fanfare.

In your price range I am biased towards digital tuners rather than
analog tuners as the digital ones tend to not require alignment as
often, but any used tuner will perform better if re-acquainted with one
of the top techs listed on the FM Tuner Info site for a cleaning and
alignment, but this will add $100 or more to your purchase.

There are many good tuners to be had for under $200 on eBay and I am
particularly fond of the Sony ST-S730ES. Sony hired James Bongiorno of
SAE/GAS/SUMO/Ampzilla fame to review and make some changes to the final
design of this particular tuner and this Sony is regarded as a
particularly good-sounding tuner. And James later designed "Charlie The
Tuner" for SUMO, which is held in high esteem by many, particularly if
it is re-acquainted with James for updates.

If you must have a new tuner, in your price range Marantz and Denon make
OK tuners, but almost any vintage tuner for a similar price will
out-perform them.

Charles Epstein wrote:
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for.
Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right,
though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

"Pete KE9OA" wrote:

My favorite sound currently available tuner is the Parasound TDQ150. It is
relatively simple design, using one of the newer Sanyo multiplex decoders
that don't need periodic adjustment of the VCO (a 456kHz ceramic resonator
is used in a variation of a VC XO circuit). It uses a single transistor line
amp; no ICs in the audio path. It is not the most selective tuner around,
but RF performance is fair.

Sensitivity is reasonable but my 2 year old TDQ 150 is already in need of
service. The 1/2 rack width is a good feature.

Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

Background:

APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We
are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are
multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at
least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise.

Results:

Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations:

1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78
2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up
3 - Sansui TU-919
4 - Pioneer F-91
5 - Kenwood KT-815

Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the
public radio station)

1 - McIntosh MR74
2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74)
3 - Pioneer F-91
4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2)
5 - Sansui TU-919
6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal)

Best Selectivity

1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else)
2 - McIntosh MR74
3 - Sony ST-S730ES
4 - Sansui TU-919
5 - Pioneer F-91
6 - Kenwood KT-815

What we kept:

1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner
2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system
3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system.

What we got rid of:

1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from
2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay
3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay

New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner

Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to
$36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the
Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It
sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it
a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new
"reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he
could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his
equipment could measure.

Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh
MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74
and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by
Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so
it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the
MR74 or the MR78.

The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction
with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the
MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate
sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS
tuner.

Cheers

Lou wrote:
I think Tim has hit on a real winner here, I moded one of these for my
youngest son and with Stealth, Schottky, or soft recovery diodes and Black
Gate caps, the Sony ST-S730ES is a really great sounding tuner, nice
looking, and reasonably inexpensive. Though I still tend to be more reserved
in my recommendations as some tuners are better at this or that in
particular. I think this Sony is less than the best for weak stations if
memory serves.

"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...
Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

Background:

APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We
are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are
multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at
least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise.

Results:

Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations:

1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78
2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up
3 - Sansui TU-919
4 - Pioneer F-91
5 - Kenwood KT-815

Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the
public radio station)

1 - McIntosh MR74
2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74)
3 - Pioneer F-91
4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2)
5 - Sansui TU-919
6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal)

Best Selectivity

1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else)
2 - McIntosh MR74
3 - Sony ST-S730ES
4 - Sansui TU-919
5 - Pioneer F-91
6 - Kenwood KT-815

What we kept:

1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner
2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system
3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system.

What we got rid of:

1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from
2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay
3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay

New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner

Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to
$36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the
Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It
sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it
a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new
"reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he
could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his
equipment could measure.

Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh
MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74
and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by
Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so
it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the
MR74 or the MR78.

The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction
with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the
MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate
sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS
tuner.

Cheers


Tim -

Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver TX-11.
My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in
sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and the
FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have reasonable
sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The FM100c was designed
for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs more. Then of course their
is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good shape (particularly if it has had
cap upgrades) can sound really, really fine.

My experience with 70's and 80's solid state tuners parallels yours...they
could be excellent on sensitivity and selectivity, but usual fall down badly
on sound quality (apparently the SONY is an exception, as is the Carver from
the late 80's.). I did a shootout back in the early '80's against HK,
Gamma, Luxman and other tuners. The Carver TX-11 won (sound quality was my
main criteria). The only SS even in the hunt was an 1974 Citation 14...and
it had a thickness to the upper bass/lower midrange that marred its
otherwise excellent sound.

Like you I am blessed with a plethora of good Public Radio
Stations....Amherst, Albany, Boston, Connecticut. With good jazz,
classical, and folk stations, a good tuner is a constant source of pleasure.

Thanks again....now I know I won't be able to afford a 74. :-)

Harry

Great work. Very interesting test.


"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...
Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a
tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an
interesting thread.

Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even
more confused than when I got this all in motion.

I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/
They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual
suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though each
"mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range.

"Sam Stark" wrote in message
...
Great work. Very interesting test.


"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...
Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a
tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Hi Harry,

I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they
did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to replace,
sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks with
good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though...

--
Best Regards,

Lou
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...
Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

Background:

APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We
are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are
multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at
least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise.

Results:

Most Sensitive and Most Quiet on Weak Stations:

1 - Tie between the MR74 and the MR78
2 - Sony ST-S730ES - A close runner up
3 - Sansui TU-919
4 - Pioneer F-91
5 - Kenwood KT-815

Best Sounding (Criteria was live acoustic music broadcasts from the
public radio station)

1 - McIntosh MR74
2 - Sony ST-S730ES (very close to the MR74)
3 - Pioneer F-91
4 - McIntosh MR78 (ranking surprised us, we thought it would be 1 or 2)
5 - Sansui TU-919
6 - Kenwood KT-815 (it actually sounded pretty transitory and nasal)

Best Selectivity

1 - McIntosh MR78 (significantly better than anything else)
2 - McIntosh MR74
3 - Sony ST-S730ES
4 - Sansui TU-919
5 - Pioneer F-91
6 - Kenwood KT-815

What we kept:

1 - McIntosh MR74 is our primary tuner
2 - Sony ST-S730ES is our tuner in secondary system
3 - Pioneer F-91 is our tuner in our basement system.

What we got rid of:

1 - MR78 - Returned to good friend we borrowed it from
2 - TU-919 - Sold it on eBay
3 - KT-815 - Sold it on eBay

New Undiscovered/Unknown Gem of a Tuner

Sony ST-J75. We've picked up 3 of these, ranging in price from $12 to
$36 on eBay, and we would rank them between the Sony ST-S730ES and the
Pioneer F-91 on the above criteria. An absolute steal at the price. It
sold new for $450, was Sony's top tuner for a while, Len Feldman gave it
a gushingly good review in "Audio" years ago and proclaimed it his new
"reference" tuner (for whatever that meant) - In his original review, he
could not measure the stereo S/N ratio as it was greater than his
equipment could measure.

Final Note: People who's opinion I REALLY RESPECT tell me the McIntosh
MR77 is McIntosh's best sounding SS tuner and blows away both the MR74
and the MR78 in sound quality. It, too, like the MR78 was designed by
Richard Modaferri, but it only had a single 8-pole RIMO filter in it so
it stands to reason it would have less IF distortion than either the
MR74 or the MR78.

The MR74 used the same 8-pole RIMO filter as the MR77 in conjunction
with a 2 pole IC filter in the wide mode, and the extra filters in the
MR78 resulted in more IF group delay than in the MR77. So for ultimate
sound quality, the MR77 seems to be the one to target if you want a SS
tuner.

Cheers


Tim -

Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver
TX-11.
My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in
sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and the
FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have reasonable
sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The FM100c was designed
for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs more. Then of course their
is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good shape (particularly if it has had
cap upgrades) can sound really, really fine.

My experience with 70's and 80's solid state tuners parallels yours...they
could be excellent on sensitivity and selectivity, but usual fall down
badly
on sound quality (apparently the SONY is an exception, as is the Carver
from
the late 80's.). I did a shootout back in the early '80's against HK,
Gamma, Luxman and other tuners. The Carver TX-11 won (sound quality was
my
main criteria). The only SS even in the hunt was an 1974 Citation
14...and
it had a thickness to the upper bass/lower midrange that marred its
otherwise excellent sound.

Like you I am blessed with a plethora of good Public Radio
Stations....Amherst, Albany, Boston, Connecticut. With good jazz,
classical, and folk stations, a good tuner is a constant source of
pleasure.

Thanks again....now I know I won't be able to afford a 74. :-)

Harry

"Lou" wrote in message
news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04...
Hi Harry,

I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out, they
did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to
replace,
sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks
with
good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though...

--
Best Regards,

Lou

snip, no longer relevant

Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting to
get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give a
listen. Anywhere near Western Mass?

It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me. I'm
looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced music. I
want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most tube
equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state.

All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all his
tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his
system.

Yeah, Harry,

I wasn't going to say anything. But I have heard and owned
these TX-11 tuners. I thought your original statement was
accidentally typed in backwards. They generally gave very
good selectivity and great sensitivity. And pretty transistory
sound, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

Maybe yours sounds better, but I cannot really think of a
tuner I have tried that sounded worse than the 3 TX-11's
I have used. Not trying to be nasty here Harry, seriously
I am not. Just a differing opinion.

The best sounding I have heard are the McIntosh tube units.
With Mac solid state along with Magnum Dynalabs being next.
Also have enjoyed a couple of Denon's (which I still have).
Some of the better Sansui and Pioneers are pretty good too.
And a Nakamichi was very nice probably up there with the
solid state Mac's.

What I like about the Denon is the way it handles things. By
this I mean if you manually switch in and out of stereo or
engage hi-blend or not etc. etc. the Denon almost always
makes the same choices I would make myself based upon
the signal quality. It sounds pretty nice, and is decent RF wise.
Others are nicer, but didn't have the quality of making
choices automatically that would match my own. And obviously
I cannot say whether someone else would make choices
as I would in that regard.

Dennis

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
"Lou" wrote in message
news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04...
Hi Harry,

I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out,
they
did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to
replace,
sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks
with
good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though...

--
Best Regards,

Lou

snip, no longer relevant

Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting to
get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give a
listen. Anywhere near Western Mass?

It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me.
I'm
looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced music.
I
want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most tube
equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state.

All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all
his
tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his
system.

I had most tuners, except from the costly Kenwoods, and consider McIntosh
MR78 the best sounding, I heard - had the MR74 as well. At least that
particular unit was inferior to all the MR78's I had. In the price range of
2-400 you might look for any Accuphase; the T-101 is within your limit and
close to the MR78 - just missing a bit of the warmth.
"Charles Epstein" skrev i en meddelelse
news:kLSob.77372$HS4.654397@attbi_s01...
Can anyone steer me toward several tuners to look into? I'd also be
interested in knowing what specs and such to be on the lookout for. Thanks
in advance. (I'm on a modest budget -- $200-400 sounds about right, though
closer to 200 than 400.) Thanks in advance.

"Dennis Moore" wrote in message
news:Hd0qb.110295$Fm2.98289@attbi_s04...
Yeah, Harry,

I wasn't going to say anything. But I have heard and owned
these TX-11 tuners. I thought your original statement was
accidentally typed in backwards. They generally gave very
good selectivity and great sensitivity. And pretty transistory
sound, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

Maybe yours sounds better, but I cannot really think of a
tuner I have tried that sounded worse than the 3 TX-11's
I have used. Not trying to be nasty here Harry, seriously
I am not. Just a differing opinion.

The best sounding I have heard are the McIntosh tube units.
With Mac solid state along with Magnum Dynalabs being next.
Also have enjoyed a couple of Denon's (which I still have).
Some of the better Sansui and Pioneers are pretty good too.
And a Nakamichi was very nice probably up there with the
solid state Mac's.

What I like about the Denon is the way it handles things. By
this I mean if you manually switch in and out of stereo or
engage hi-blend or not etc. etc. the Denon almost always
makes the same choices I would make myself based upon
the signal quality. It sounds pretty nice, and is decent RF wise.
Others are nicer, but didn't have the quality of making
choices automatically that would match my own. And obviously
I cannot say whether someone else would make choices
as I would in that regard.

Dennis


Now I'm really intrigued. I've actually a-b'd my Carver versus one of my
two Fisher FM90B's in my main system. The FM90B I have actually auditioned
next to a MAC (not sure which, I believe a 74 o4 78 but it may have been
another) and thought the Fisher sounded slightly more neutral while still
retaining "tube warmth". In my system, level matched and only requiring a
switch from Aux 1 to Aux 2, the two tuners sounded so close I would have had
difficulty deciding "blind". Careful back-and-forthing (I was trying to
decide which to leave in the main system) led me to conclude that the Carver
had just a touch more transient attack and "openess" that made it just a
smidge more "real" sounding...eg. "they are here"...than the FM90B. I
used very fine classical and jazz transmissions from WFCR, our local
(Western Mass) public radio station. At one point the station was playing a
selection from Brubeck's "Time Out" so I whipped out my CD version and
flipped to the CD, which sounded very closely matched in volume (although I
can't be sure). I was unable to tell the "over-the-air" cd from the station
from the local cd in character of sound when switching back and forth.

I don't know any other way short of absolutely rigorous blind testing to
decide a component is "musical" and "neutral". It was enough for me, and it
has been in my system ever since with the two Fisher FM90B's doing duty in
my second system and as backup respectively.

I guess one might mistake the transparency and quickness of this unit for
transistory, but its sound character so mimics the FM90B's sound (including
body and dimensionality) that I would never have thought to discribe it that
way.

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
"Lou" wrote in message
news:7HXpb.108099$Fm2.92955@attbi_s04...
Hi Harry,

I bought a Carver TX-11, not the later one, when they were first out,
they
did not sound that good, my Sansui TU-S9, which it was supposed to
replace,
sounded much better... I have since moded a TU-S9, and it really kicks
with
good caps, I like the looks of my 717 better though...

--
Best Regards,

Lou

snip, no longer relevant

Well, I guess that makes it a a horserace :-). Would be interesting
to
get the two tuners and our two pair of ears together some night and give
a
listen. Anywhere near Western Mass?

It is conceivable you might be looking for something different than me.
I'm
looking for a sense of "body" and dimensionality to the reproduced
music.
I
want it to sound at least as good as a good cd. I get this with most
tube
equipment. I get it only occasionally with solid state.

All I can say is, my brother-in-law, who owns four systems threw out all
his
tuners and bought four TX-11's off eBay after hearing my tuner in his
system.

It is an interesting thread.

As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an
uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around for
great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off stations
that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these old
tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service
manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a
Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record
off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound great-
about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to
really image the sound from them.

"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:GlWpb.77162$mZ5.493712@attbi_s54...
Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an
interesting thread.

Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even
more confused than when I got this all in motion.

I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/
They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual
suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though
each
"mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range.

"Sam Stark" wrote in message
...
Great work. Very interesting test.


"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...
Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a
tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

The problem with all tuner shootouts, recommendations, etc. is that
there's nothing to listen to that is broadcast with even modest
fidelity. The 2 stations I might listen to are both so compressed
that there seems no point in searching out the best in tuners.

Norm Strong

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone, so now let me explain our
particular selfish reasons for doing what we did and why some tuners
were excluded from our little "shoot-out" And we'll try and answer some
questions here we've received from many of you off-line.

We had been using a Kenwood KT-815 right after we moved here and its
sound got to the point where it was not as enjoyable for us to listen to
it as before. Maybe the stations here put out a better quality signal
than in the D/FW area we moved from (not many NPR stations there anyway)
or maybe our ears got better. So we went to a dealer in Raleigh, NC we
trust and borrowed a Pioneer F-91 and whatever the top Magnum tuner was
at the time (it was in 195 and we don't remember the model number). In
our location, the Magnum sounded a teensy bit better but the Pioneer
F-91 was much more sensitive and picked more of the NPR stations we
listen to with less background hiss and noise, and this was with
everything set in the regular stereo mode, no hi-blend or anything
activated, so we got the F-91 in 1995.

In 2001, we wondered if there was anything better out there, so we
bought some tuners off eBay and AudioGon to try. Our reasoning was that
we could resell the ones that we didn't want and only be out the
shipping charges and this seemed a small price to pay to get to try a
bunch of tuners.

Now, there were some tuners we purposely excluded from our test:

1. All tube tuners were excluded. I worked at a high-end store in
Chapel Hill in the 1970's and I remember we had some customers with
tube Fisher, Scott, Eico and even a few with Marantz 10 and 10B
tuners. We saw most of their tuners at least once a year for
alignments and an occasional tube replacement.

In our system, it takes a good 4 hours of work to get a tuner
inserted into our equipment closet and hooked up. We didn't want
to have to pull it out every year or so and be without it for
several weeks for routine maintenance.

2. All Carver tuners were excluded. Some of you are very passionate
about Carver tuners, but we thought there was too much unit to unit
variability in them and they didn't seem as well designed as his
other electronics. Our feeling is if you have one you really like,
you ended up with a good one, so keep it and enjoy it and disregard
what we think. After all, it's only our opinion - We are not RF
engineers.

3. All NAIM tuners - Not sensitive enough.

4. All Linn tuners - We were told by many the Kremlin was the only
really good tuner they made and they are almost impossible to find.

5. All Yamaha tuners - We had owned a CT-1010 in the past that was a
lemon and we hated the "auto lock tuning" feature it had. So we
were biased against another Yamaha.

6. All Nikko tuners - We think the company had folded by 1995 and we
were not sure how much support would be available for Nikko, even
though many consider the Gamma V to be a very good tuner.

Tuners we would have like to test but could not find one at the time:

1. McIntosh MR77
2. Accuphase T-100
3. Pioneer F-26
4. Kenwood L-O2T
5. Onkyo T-9090 Mk. II
6. Marantz 2130 or an ST-7/ST-8
7. Sansui TU-X1
8. Technics ST-9030
9. Updated "Charlie The Tuner" by SUMO

So we went with the six we had on hand. We figured the range of what we
were testing would tell us our primary objective, which "Was there
another tuner that would work better in our specific location?"

We found two, the McIntosh MR74 and the Sony ST-S730ES (and later, the
Sony ST-J75, to a degree), and the MR74 sounded a bit better to us, so
the McIntosh MR74 took up permanent residence here. Perhaps we cheated
though: Our MR74 had been rebuilt and aligned by McIntosh Labs and they
did a super job and we would hesitate to recommend any McIntosh tuner
owner send their tuner to McIntosh, though we've heard they will only
work on SS tuners now. Later, Tom Manley of Audio Refurbishers in
Knoxville asked to borrow our MR74, so we lent it to him (he's a great
guy to deal with). When we went back to pick it up, he said his tech
had gone through it, squeezed 3 dB more separation out of it and made it
a little bit more sensitive, and then he really, really tried hard to
buy it from us, even offering us either a McIntosh MR75 or an MR71 in an
even trade. We figured if he wanted it this badly, we should really
hang on to it, so we did.

Yes, we wish we could have tried some of the other tuners listed above,
particularly the McIntosh MR77 as there seem to be a general consensus
it sounds better than either a McIntosh MR78 or the MR74. We've read
great things about the Sansui TU-X1, updated "Charlies," and the Onkyo
T-9090 Mk.II, and the Tuner Info Group ranks the Kenwood L-02T as the
one to beat. And we would have like to have tried an Accuphase T-100 -
in some private correspondence with James Bongiorno, he noted he was not
fond of most Japanese tuners, but he thought the Accuphase T-100 was a
particularly good one.

Some of you have emailed us off the list and asked about our antenna amp
and cabling. Because of the way our house is built and the fact we
wanted the APS-13 mounted on our single chimney, we have about a 150'
run of RG-6 from the antenna to the tuner. We tried it first without
any antenna amp and barely got a listenable signal. We then inserted
the amp on the antenna and it made an astounding difference and there
ARE signal strength variations between the stations we pick up. We also
tried the antenna amp at the END of the cable run and we got a lot of
noise - It was not much better than using no amp, so placing one on the
receiving antenna seem to be critical. The amp is a Wineguard (can't
see the model number on it) that we paid about $50 for and we "think" it
has about 17 or 19 dB gain. It is powered by a "wall wart" power supply
and we had to run a power cable to it clipped to the RG-6.

We've read all the negatives about using antenna amps, but all we can
say it that when we placed ours AT THE ANTENNA (it's actually mounted on
our rotor motor box), it worked, and when we tried it at the end of the
cable run from the antenna, it really sucked.

As for testing other tuners, we're done.

We're very happy with the MR74, but we are considering "maybe" trying a
MR67 or MR71 because so many people tell us they sound so much better
than any of the McIntosh SS tuners. We have reservations, though,
because we're really concerned about sensitivity given our remote
location. And please note we're not saying the MR74 is the best tuner
out there. There are other tuners that are more sensitive and there are
other tuners like the MR78 that are more selective. The MR74 just
happens to work for us and we like its "sound" quite a bit, so it's not
leaving.

And with the growing "Great Satan" of DAB, we're thinking that quality
FM broadcasting may be in its golden years, like vinyl, and that DAB may
soon render analog FM tuners obsolete just like the CD replaced the LP
in the mass market. So we don't want to have too large an investment in
a potentially obsolete technology. We read some of the UK publications
and the audiophile community there seems to uniformly condemn and hate
the BBC's DAB broadcasts compared to the BBC's analog FM broadcasts.

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:gCQpb.76893$275.205849@attbi_s53...

Low,

We live in the NW mountains of NC and about 18 months ago we did a tuner
"shutout" at casa Britt/Weatherwax.

Here's what we tested:

McIntosh MR78 - 6 Months out from a Modaferri mod
McIntosh MR74 - Stock, but rebuilt/aligned by McIntosh Labs
Sony ST-S730ES - Stock
Pioneer F-91 - Stock
Sansui TU-919 - Stock
Kenwood KT-815 - Stock

Background:

APS-13 antenna with a Wineguard antenna amp located at the antenna. We
are not within line-of-light of ANY FM towers, so all we get are
multipath reflections off the nearby mountains. But we can pull in at
least 10 public radio stations with very little or no noise.

Excellent, useful post. If you do another shootout, include a Carver
TX-11.
My guess it will rank very high in sound quality and get creamed in
sensitivity and selectivity. Also, if possible the Fisher FM100C and
the FM90B. The latter can be had on eBay for under $100 and have
reasonable sensitivity/selectivity and superb sound quality. The
FM100c was designed for greater sensitivity but is rarer and costs
more. Then of course their is the classic Dyna FM3 which if in good
shape (particularly if it has had cap upgrades) can sound really,
really fine.

"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01...
It is an interesting thread.

As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an
uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around
for
great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off
stations
that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these
old
tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service
manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a
Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record
off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound
great-
about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to
really image the sound from them.


Depends a lot on which Magnum Dynalab model. I compared the 'Etude' to the
lower model 101 (I believe that was the number) many years ago using the
signal sleuth. I recall the Etude had considerably better audio performance
which IMO easily justified the additional cost. I've been a happy owner of
the Etude/Sleuth combination now for many years...well worth searching out.
A good aerial/antenna is a must, I use a roof mounted Yagi array. I don't
know the present used market price though.

Part of the joy and bane of analog is its inconsistency. Once you leave
digital audio reproduction one tube can make the sine waves musical or
create a whole lot of static. FM tuners as much as LP turntables and phono
cartridges are so individual that I've found jewels among cast-offs and
dross among the supposed best.

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
news:VJaqb.112057$HS4.969971@attbi_s01...
"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01...
It is an interesting thread.

As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an
uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around
for
great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off
stations
that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these
old
tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service
manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a
Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do
record
off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound
great-
about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to
really image the sound from them.


Depends a lot on which Magnum Dynalab model. I compared the 'Etude' to the
lower model 101 (I believe that was the number) many years ago using the
signal sleuth. I recall the Etude had considerably better audio
performance
which IMO easily justified the additional cost. I've been a happy owner of
the Etude/Sleuth combination now for many years...well worth searching
out.
A good aerial/antenna is a must, I use a roof mounted Yagi array. I don't
know the present used market price though.

You apparently live in an RF poor environment, from a programming
standpoint.

Are there no public radio stations you can pick up? They generally
broadcast a higher quality signal because they generally cannot afford
to purchase the equipment that compresses the signal.

Or you could move ;-)

normanstrong wrote:
The problem with all tuner shootouts, recommendations, etc. is that
there's nothing to listen to that is broadcast with even modest
fidelity. The 2 stations I might listen to are both so compressed
that there seems no point in searching out the best in tuners.

Norm Strong

5. All Yamaha tuners - We had owned a CT-1010 in the past that was a
lemon and we hated the "auto lock tuning" feature it had. So we
were biased against another Yamaha.

great read on your shoot out. but it's a shame that you were biased
against Yamaha. At least for my unit, the auto lock tuning feature is
easy to disable.

i actually was biased against Yamaha when i was looking because i didn't
think that Yamaha could build anything beyond "mid-fi". but, i was
wrong...

when looking for a sub $400 tuner many years ago (1995?), i tried out a
lot of different tuners including the Yamaha, Sony ES, Denon, Rotel, NAD,
low end Mag-Dyna, Marantz (used), Adcom and Parasound units of the day.
(note: the only used unit i could audition at home was the
Marantz...other stores wouldn't allow me to do that for the time i
required (i lived on Cape Cod and needed to trek very far for many of
these audition units).

anyway, in the end, i was shocked to end up with the Yamaha TX-950. i
cost me around $350 (retailed for $450 or so) and it has been a gem in all
the years i've owned it. Besides sounding gorgeous, it pulled in stations
that the others could not (incredible sensitivity) , and had many spiffy
features that only a few of the above had portions of:

- adjustable IF filter
- mono/stereo switch
- ultra fine tuning (down to 0.01 mhz!)...believe it or not, this really
helped while living on cape cod.
- blend circuitry
- 2 antenna inputs (extremely useful)

of course, as everyone probably knows (but is worth mentioning again), the
ultimate fidelity of the tuner will come down to the source material (ie,
low compression broadcasts) and antenna strength. i now live the SF Bay
Area, and only a few stations are up to snuff at showing what my Yamaha
tuner is capable of doing. with the right material, a tuner can be truly
hi end.

anyway, bottom line: i give a high recommendation to my Yamaha tuner
(which i believe at some point ended up on Stereophile's recommended
list...not that it matters though). i know of a few friends that managed
to snag them on the used market and have been very pleased.

my 2nd favorite tuner (which ran around $400...pity i don't recall the
model number) was one made by Adcom...not as featureful and sensitive as
the Yamaha, but first rate sound....

cheers, Derek

APS is owned and run by one of the brightest RF engineers in the
business, Ed Hanlon, and he's also got a stellar reputation as an honest
and ethical businessperson.

You really get what you pay for when Ed mods one of your tuners. He is
a frequent poster to the FM Tuner group in my.yahoo.com.

And what I really like about Ed is that if he thinks you happen to be an
assh$*e, we will not do business nor sell you anything.

Ed does some fantastic mods on certain Realistic (yes, you read Radio
Shack) tuners and can make them outperform almost any new tuner you can
purchase today.

I think one of his favourite tuners he like to mod is the Sansui TU-919,
but the last two have sold on eBay for $1005 and $920, unmodded,
respectively, so the market for this model is a little inflated right now.

Charles Epstein wrote:
Little did I think when I wrote my original email that I'd spark such an
interesting thread.

Thanks to all for such detailed and informed responses. Naturally I'm even
more confused than when I got this all in motion.

I came across an interesting site: http://www.antennaperformance.com/
They do modifications to vintage units -- Sansui, Kenwood, the usual
suspects. Seems like they do first rate work (I'm speculating), though each
"mod" tends to push the unit beyond my intended price range.

Derek,

Many would argue it's impossible to be a real audiophile WITHOUT bias
(pun intended) ;-)

The FM Tuner Group site at http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/yamaha.html has a
brief write up on the Yamaha TX-950 that you may or may not agree with.
They do say it is a very sensitive tuner.

Derek Fong wrote:

great read on your shoot out. but it's a shame that you were biased
against Yamaha. At least for my unit, the auto lock tuning feature is
easy to disable.

"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01...
It is an interesting thread.

As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an
uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around
for
great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off
stations
that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these
old
tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service
manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a
Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do record
off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound
great-
about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to
really image the sound from them.


Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I am
doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the
Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my
experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC 6B
preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one
years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play a
"flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear
sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as
"rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have tried
this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional"
everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My
bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for
repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The
difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in
this regard I have ever heard.)

In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have systems
that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare
among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does
have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end Magnums
and was disappointed to find they did not.

snip, not relevant to this post

You've hit upon a truth and it should not be minimized. The advantage of
the FM tuner is the analog "noise" which I agree, the musicality of which,
can be heightened by tubes. I've always used tubes in the playback cycle.
I've heard CD's on the radio, preserved and recorded with a Nak on tape,
which sounded better than listening to the same CD on a usual CD player.
I've recorded digitally off the radio and it never matches the Nak deck.
What we normally hear is analog not sampled. Note there are CD players
that put that analog "noise" back in- some are spectacularly expensive but
there are a couple that are real bargains.

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news:5ucqb.113283$Fm2.101428@attbi_s04...
"Sam Stark" wrote in message
news:K0aqb.111855$HS4.966845@attbi_s01...
It is an interesting thread.

As long as the PBS college stations continue to broadcast FM in an
uncompromising manner these vintage tuners are the best bargains around
for
great sound. I don't DX I just like to listen to those farther off
stations
that also broadcast great music. I have bought and tinkered with these
old
tuners and of course antennas over the years, even found the service
manuals, and now my favorites, among many, in 2 different systems are a
Magnum Dynalab w/ matched Signal Sleuth and a Sansui TU9900. I do
record
off them both at times like Opera broadcasts and I find both to sound
great-
about equal no favorite. I have found a tube preamp is a necessity to
really image the sound from them.


Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I
am
doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the
Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my
experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC
6B
preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one
years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play
a
"flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear
sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as
"rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have
tried
this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional"
everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My
bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for
repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The
difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in
this regard I have ever heard.)

In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have
systems
that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare
among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does
have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end
Magnums
and was disappointed to find they did not.

snip, not relevant to this post

Harry,

When I had the TX-11 on my premises the system was
Conrad-Johnson pre-amp, VTL 75/75 in triode driving
Quad ESL-63's. It wasn't a 2D system. It was a very
2D tuner. Now for a 3 dimensional tuner, which I believe
created the effect out of whole cloth, try a Fisher 50B.
Be sure to let it warm up an hour or it won't sound that
good.

I don't know, maybe as someone else mentioned, the
TX-11's varied quite alot from sample to sample. If so
you have gotten lucky with a good one. The Carver Tuners
were pretty good RF machines if it sounds good too,
you have a good item there.

Dennis

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message news:5u
Your comment the tube preamp above is relevant to the puzzling out I
am
doing over the difference in results I and others are getting from the
Carver TX-11 (see other posts). I forgot to add in describing my
experiments with the TX-11 that my main chain was all tube (modified ARC
6B
preamp, VTL ST-85, Thiel 2 2). I stay with this chain (and a similar one
years ago) because it allows "dimensionality" to get through. When I play
a
"flat" sounding (e.g. two-dimensional) piece of gear through it, the gear
sounds flat. When I play a piece of gear which can be characterized as
"rounded" or "dimensional" or "3-D", that effect remains. When I have
tried
this in a system with components that tend to be "two-dimensional"
everything (including my prized tube tuners) come out sounding flat. (My
bedroom system is currently in this state, as my Fisher KX-200 is out for
repair and I have an Onkyo R1 stereo integrated doing duty instead. The
difference is pretty noticeable, although the Onkyo is hardly the worst in
this regard I have ever heard.)

In the case of the Carver, perhaps those who have not liked it have
systems
that do not reveal the "dimensionality" that this tuner can provide (rare
among SS tuners, or SS in general, in my experience.) If your Etude does
have this characteristic, congratulations! I've heard the lower-end
Magnums
and was disappointed to find they did not.

snip, not relevant to this post

"Dennis Moore" wrote in message
news:Ldeqb.115589$e01.419905@attbi_s02...
Harry,

When I had the TX-11 on my premises the system was
Conrad-Johnson pre-amp, VTL 75/75 in triode driving
Quad ESL-63's. It wasn't a 2D system. It was a very
2D tuner. Now for a 3 dimensional tuner, which I believe
created the effect out of whole cloth, try a Fisher 50B.
Be sure to let it warm up an hour or it won't sound that
good.

I don't know, maybe as someone else mentioned, the
TX-11's varied quite alot from sample to sample. If so
you have gotten lucky with a good one. The Carver Tuners
were pretty good RF machines if it sounds good too,
you have a good item there.

Dennis


Perhaps you are right. In which case, my brother-in-law also got lucky
because the TX-11 in his main system (Krell 300, Snell B's) also sounds very
fine with a "they are here" presence. He's a big jazz fan and with a really
good jazz recording being played by the station, the jazz is right there in
the room.

BTW, the Fisher FM50B is the precursor to the FM90B that I have raved about.
The 90B and the 100C were the last tube tuners Fisher built. They had solid
state power supplies but otherwise were tube...and they had extraordinary
sound. Since demand has driven the prices of Marantz's and McIntoshes out
of my range, I am thrilled that I can still find very finding Fisher gear at
great prices. Some people like Scott (I have owned both tube and transistor
in the past) but I prefer by Fishers by a large margin.

While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on
www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications:

-- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter Boards,
doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been
greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality.
-- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer "auto-mutes"
when in stereo.
-- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the tuner
exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been modified
and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and
gloms on to the stronger station - no more!

They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All things
being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly, etc --
which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699 it's
far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts?

Charles,

Ed Hanlon at APS is one of the top tuner techs and RF engineers in the
world.

If it were me, I'd buy the Sansui T-80 or the Sansui T-60 AM/FM Stereo
Tuner he has modified and selling for $199.95 if budget is important.

One thing Ed does that is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is he individually
measures each and every ceramic filter he puts in his modded tuners.
Very few tuner techs do this as it is time consuming, requires expensive
measurement equipment, and most modders just accept their filter
supplier's word their filters meet factory specs. The ugly truth is
that many ceramic filters DO NOT MEET factory specs, and Ed measures
each and every filter that goes into a tuner he works on so all of the
filters will be matched for optimal performance. Matching the bandwidth
of the filter is critical, so if you are putting in say, narrow
bandwidth 150kHz filters, they need to be matched pairs so the bandwidth
on both filters is 150kHz and not 130kHz on one filter and 180kHz on the
other filter. Mismatched filters really screw up the FM sound quality.

So much of what you are paying for with Ed's mods is his expertise and
care in matching the components so you get a quality product and not
just a tuner some hack had supposedly "modded."

And I am not a relative of nor have any financial interest in Ed's
business: I just know he's been around for a long time and has a
stellar reputation in the tuner and antenna business.

Finally, you haven't said anything about the FM environment you're going
to be listening in. Your FM environment should dictate what kind of
tuner you're going to get. First and foremost, you absolutely MUST
install an outdoor antenna with a rotor if you are going to get a
quality signal to your tuner (or hang one with fishing line from your
ceiling in a room in your home - don't laugh, some people really do this).

The $25 Radio Shack FM-only antenna is not a bad way to begin, with a
Radio Shack rotor if you're on a budget. If you can spend about $80
plus UPS shipping for an antenna, then the Wineguard HD-6065 is an
excellent FM-only antenna. And then there's the APS-9 and the APS-13 if
you want top of the line FM-only antennae.

Next, if most of your stations are local and broadcast strong signals,
and are not closely spaced together, the Sansui T-60 or T-80 will work
great for you.

OTOH, if you need to listen to distant stations or stations that are
next to each other on the dial (say 91.5 and 91.7), then you need a
tuner with good sensitivity and selectivity. Here, the Sansui TU-717
would be the one to get, even though it's way more than you want to spend.

Yes, ours is an expensive hobby, but there's still real magic and great
sound quality in the airwaves, for free, if you've got access to a good
public radio station and a good tuner and outdoor antenna.

Let us know what you decide.

Tim Britt

Charles Epstein wrote:
While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on
www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications:

-- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter Boards,
doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been
greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality.
-- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer "auto-mutes"
when in stereo.
-- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the tuner
exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been modified
and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and
gloms on to the stronger station - no more!

They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All things
being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly, etc --
which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699 it's
far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts?

Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25 miles
north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR station
and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good
jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not sure I
need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed indoor
antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor
variety (?)

Charles.

"Tim Britt" wrote in message
news:bOkqb.85208$mZ5.588564@attbi_s54...
Charles,

Ed Hanlon at APS is one of the top tuner techs and RF engineers in the
world.

If it were me, I'd buy the Sansui T-80 or the Sansui T-60 AM/FM Stereo
Tuner he has modified and selling for $199.95 if budget is important.

One thing Ed does that is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is he individually
measures each and every ceramic filter he puts in his modded tuners.
Very few tuner techs do this as it is time consuming, requires expensive
measurement equipment, and most modders just accept their filter
supplier's word their filters meet factory specs. The ugly truth is
that many ceramic filters DO NOT MEET factory specs, and Ed measures
each and every filter that goes into a tuner he works on so all of the
filters will be matched for optimal performance. Matching the bandwidth
of the filter is critical, so if you are putting in say, narrow
bandwidth 150kHz filters, they need to be matched pairs so the bandwidth
on both filters is 150kHz and not 130kHz on one filter and 180kHz on the
other filter. Mismatched filters really screw up the FM sound quality.

So much of what you are paying for with Ed's mods is his expertise and
care in matching the components so you get a quality product and not
just a tuner some hack had supposedly "modded."

And I am not a relative of nor have any financial interest in Ed's
business: I just know he's been around for a long time and has a
stellar reputation in the tuner and antenna business.

Finally, you haven't said anything about the FM environment you're going
to be listening in. Your FM environment should dictate what kind of
tuner you're going to get. First and foremost, you absolutely MUST
install an outdoor antenna with a rotor if you are going to get a
quality signal to your tuner (or hang one with fishing line from your
ceiling in a room in your home - don't laugh, some people really do this).

The $25 Radio Shack FM-only antenna is not a bad way to begin, with a
Radio Shack rotor if you're on a budget. If you can spend about $80
plus UPS shipping for an antenna, then the Wineguard HD-6065 is an
excellent FM-only antenna. And then there's the APS-9 and the APS-13 if
you want top of the line FM-only antennae.

Next, if most of your stations are local and broadcast strong signals,
and are not closely spaced together, the Sansui T-60 or T-80 will work
great for you.

OTOH, if you need to listen to distant stations or stations that are
next to each other on the dial (say 91.5 and 91.7), then you need a
tuner with good sensitivity and selectivity. Here, the Sansui TU-717
would be the one to get, even though it's way more than you want to spend.

Yes, ours is an expensive hobby, but there's still real magic and great
sound quality in the airwaves, for free, if you've got access to a good
public radio station and a good tuner and outdoor antenna.

Let us know what you decide.

Tim Britt

Charles Epstein wrote:
While I have a bid in for the Sansui 517, I came across a Sansui T-80 on
www.antennaperformance.com. The T-80 has the following modifications:

-- The two ceramic filters have been replaced with Amplified Filter
Boards,
doubling the filter total to four. Sensitivity and selectivity have been
greatly improved, while preserving this unit's superb sound quality.
-- The muting circuit has been defeated, so the tuner no longer
"auto-mutes"
when in stereo.
-- The Quartz Lock circuit has been neutralized. Before mods, when the
tuner
exhibits poor selectivity, QL is fine. But when this unit has been
modified
and takes a quantum leap in selectivity, the QL just gets in the way and
gloms on to the stronger station - no more!

They are asking $250 (ballpark for a 517 over ebay is 150-200). All
things
being equal -- price (roughly), cosmetics, each packaged properly,
etc --
which is the better bet? (The modified 717 is seductive, but at $699
it's
far more than I want to spend.) Thoughts?

"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:XBtqb.129677$Tr4.335689@attbi_s03...
Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25
miles
north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR station
and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good
jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not sure
I
need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed indoor
antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor
variety (?)

Charles.


Actually, with stations that close in a flat state like Florida, you can
easily get buy with a $3 folded dipole from your radio shack. Get a thin
strip of wood, tack the "arms" of the dipole to the wood, and experiment
with orientation to find the best signal. Once found, try to find a place
to hide it (preferably up high behind a bookcase or something) and you are
set. Or you can find other less obtrusive ways to mount it...a clear 300ohm
cable dipole thumbtacked up against a top molding is not too obtrusive.

On the other hand, if you want to find that jazz station, follow Ed's advice
and get one of the ARS antennas and a good roof mount and rotor....you
should be able to pull in more than seventy-five miles...much further under
some weather conditions. And if you really want to DX, you can buy two
antennas, mount them one above the other about a quarter wavelength apart
(about 11 ft if I remember correctly) and go to it. I did this back in the
early seventies from a house in a shallow valley in North Stamford, CT. and
easily picked up Albany 130 miles to the northwest and Philadelphia more
than 150 miles to the southwest. In stereo and no noise. God, how I wished
I had lived atop of the hill rather than in the valley.

not relevant to this discussion

A thought: if a modified vintage tuner could pull in vintage broadcasts from
the 70s, price would be no object. How I miss the long, pregnant pauses
after listening to a side of Gentle Giant's latest...followed by a dramatic
exhale, as though the deejay just let out a cloud bank of bong smoke. Ah.
Those were the days.

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news:wMuqb.90681$mZ5.599557@attbi_s54...
"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:XBtqb.129677$Tr4.335689@attbi_s03...
Tim...thanks, you make a lot of sense. I live in S. Florida, about 25
miles
north of Miami. I typically listen to two stations: the local NPR
station
and one with an eclectic rock/progressive format (I haven't found a good
jazz station yet). The signals for both are pretty strong, so I'm not
sure
I
need something ultra selective/sensitive. Ed in an email dismissed
indoor
antennas as "gimmicks"; I assume the ones you mention are the outdoor
variety (?)

Charles.


Actually, with stations that close in a flat state like Florida, you can
easily get buy with a $3 folded dipole from your radio shack. Get a thin
strip of wood, tack the "arms" of the dipole to the wood, and experiment
with orientation to find the best signal. Once found, try to find a place
to hide it (preferably up high behind a bookcase or something) and you are
set. Or you can find other less obtrusive ways to mount it...a clear
300ohm
cable dipole thumbtacked up against a top molding is not too obtrusive.

On the other hand, if you want to find that jazz station, follow Ed's
advice
and get one of the ARS antennas and a good roof mount and rotor....you
should be able to pull in more than seventy-five miles...much further
under
some weather conditions. And if you really want to DX, you can buy two
antennas, mount them one above the other about a quarter wavelength apart
(about 11 ft if I remember correctly) and go to it. I did this back in
the
early seventies from a house in a shallow valley in North Stamford, CT.
and
easily picked up Albany 130 miles to the northwest and Philadelphia more
than 150 miles to the southwest. In stereo and no noise. God, how I
wished
I had lived atop of the hill rather than in the valley.

not relevant to this discussion

"Charles Epstein" wrote in message
news:q7vqb.128866$HS4.1023310@attbi_s01...
A thought: if a modified vintage tuner could pull in vintage broadcasts
from
the 70s, price would be no object. How I miss the long, pregnant pauses
after listening to a side of Gentle Giant's latest...followed by a
dramatic
exhale, as though the deejay just let out a cloud bank of bong smoke. Ah.
Those were the days.


Bigggg Smiiiiiiillee!

snip, not relevant