Chris Hornbeck
Don't get hung up on the concept of species. It's just a convenience,
not a physical reality. Our ancestors of 10,000 years ago looked a lot
like us. Our ancestors of 100,000 years ago could be given a modern
haircut and clothes and walk our streets unremarked. Our ancestors
of 1,000,000 years ago would look enough different to be noticed.
Our ancestors of 10,000,000 years ago might not have the legal
standing of a human being nowdays.

Now now Chris. Our ancestors are only 145,000 -200,000 years old (see
below). And this is where you can really stick it to arrogant evolutionary
biologists. Evolutionists like Dr. Richard Leakey claimed as recently as 1977
(and it was taught with certainty), "There is no single center where modern man
was born." Science claimed that man emerged randomly all over the earth.
Until DNA research and - and Bzzzzzt, WRONG! Yesterdays "science" has been
proven false doctrine, and what was called a "religious myth" just _17_ years
ago is now considered "Science"....

- December 4, 1995 issue of "U.S. New & World Report," Michael Hammer of the
University of Arizona :
"...humans have very, very shallow genetic roots which go back very recently to
one ancestor...that indicates that there was an origin in a specific location
on the globe and then it spread out from there..."

- Reader's Digest - "News from the World of Science" reprint from Time
Magazine, "Mother Eve."

"If family trees were traced indefinitely backward, they would converge on a
small group of ancients who were ancestors of us all. Now biochemists from the
University of California at Berkeley think a single female living 200,000 years
ago was an ancestor of everyone on Earth today. Inevitably they began calling
her "Eve".

Prior studies have shown that, over the generations, mtDNA changes at a steady,
known rate of mutation in humans and other primates. To measure this change,
the biochemists examined mtDNA from 147 individuals representing five broad
geographic regions. Analyzing the differences in the mtDNA samples, the
scientists constructed a 'family tree' showing a common ancestral mtDNA. Then
they extrapolated backward to calculate when that mtDNA existed -- when Eve
lived.

Examining the relationships and geographic origins among the 147 people, the
biochemists also determined Eve's home: sub-Saharan Africa."

- October 6, 1999, Daily Insight, a publication of The American Association for
the Advancement of Science. Article titled, "Southern African Eve"

"Twelve years ago scientists at the University of California, Berkeley,
concluded from DNA studies that "Eve," an ancestor common to all modern humans,
was an African. Now scientists in South Africa have tracked "Eve" to the
Khosian peoples, who are the oldest indigenous group in southern Africa.The
findings, presented at a recent human evolution meeting at Cold Spring Harbor
Laboratory in New York, complement data from the male side: Y chromosome
studies had previously pegged the Khosian among a handful of groups with Y
chromosomes most closely resembling those of a common ancestor who lived in
Africa 145,000 years ago (Science, 31 October 1997, p. 804). Mike Hammer of the
University of Arizona, Tucson, who took part in the Y chromosome study, says
the latest mtDNA work provides "important confirmation" of the team's work."


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

JWelsh3374 wrote:

I spoke with God this morning.

He told me to tell you guys to email each other instead of wasting bandwidth
here.

Sorry. God has spoken. Knock it off.

Try the "k" key in your newsreader. God put that there for
a reason.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...

Well, you should be happy then, since we have all that.
*Please* see the summaries at talkorigins.org.

You pompous ass, I addressed the talkorigins site at least a dozen times
in the post that you snipped. For the last time, stop snipping all of the
relevant questions and pointing me to so-called "research" I have already
addressed. Answer the questions, or admit that you cannot.

ryanm

Steven Sullivan wrote:

Then again, how do you know that your concept of what is feasible,
is accurate, and not simply biased?

I don't. This isn't about science to me. As I've said, I
think that science and spirituality are orthogonal.


People commonly underestimate the probabilities of things happening
by chance, and therefore are more impressed than they rationally
should be. Psychological bias and the psychology of estimation and
judgement are fascinating subjects....but don't paint humans in
a particularly flattering light. I wonder how much religious
belief is founded simply on such phenomena.

I agree with you. At some point, however, the stacking of
all the various odds begins to look suspicious. Through my
investigation of the matter, that point has been passed for me.

The only thing that definitely shows a way to beat those
odds is one or more of the possibilities I've mentioned for
exhausting the possibilities and even that speaks ultimately
to design, AFAIC.

I do have a degree in EE and applied physics, as well as a
lifelong interest in theoretical physics, so I'm not
completely maladept at selecting or evaluating what I read,
and that's been pretty extensive if not inclusive.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

anthony.gosnell wrote:

The problem with introducing a "God entity" is that it makes things more
complicated because now you have to work out how a God can self assemble.


Not for me. I see it as the ultimate simplification and
don't believe that our concepts and processes need apply.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"JWelsh3374" wrote in message
...
I spoke with God this morning.

He told me to tell you guys to email each other instead of wasting
bandwidth
here.

Sorry. God has spoken. Knock it off.


searching for peace, love and quality footwear
guido

But since George doesn't believe in God, he can still post on this subject?
g

Steven Sullivan wrote:


Essential point. Forever it has been "the God of the gaps"
and I too think that approach has been discredited, to a
point. We are now running up against things that are
unknowable in principle yet must be known to wrap things up.
To state it as simply as possible (and to leave you an
easy target), it is beyond this boundry that I find God.


...which is to say, you *do* embrace "god of the gaps".


I anticipated that you would see that. :-)

Yes, in the end I do. The gap I see, however, is
qualtiatively and quantitatively different than the ones to
which religion has traditionally, and very unsuccessfully,
appealed. It is fundamental and inescapable. Behind that
curtain I glimpse the Wizard.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

ryanm wrote:
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...

Well, you should be happy then, since we have all that.
*Please* see the summaries at talkorigins.org.

You pompous ass, I addressed the talkorigins site at least a dozen times
in the post that you snipped.

I saw no evidence that you'd even visited the site. If you did, you
don't seem to ahve read it. And if you did, you don't seem to have
understood what you read. OPtherwise you could never claim that
there's no speciation, no transitional fossils.

Now, go over to talk.origins, the newsgroup, and continue your
education there, in the appropriate forum. The regulars
will be more than happy to help you out...but are going to
actually have to read and understand stuff.





--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

WillStG wrote:

It is intellectually dishonest to just make a blanket judgement that all
people who bear witness to having experienced spiritual phenomena are not
credible witnesses, and that is not a form of "proof".

Will, please pay attention. I agree having a "spiritual" experience is
real in the sense that feeling love, joy, sadness or longing is real.
But having one isn't proof there is an external spirit power that can
influence events.


out of body near death experiences people have
had has been extensively researched and verified, people accurately reported
they saw and heard away from their body while "dead". Tell me your simpler
explanation for that. And you cannot give a simpler, more logical explanation
for the many varieties of spiritual phenomena people have personally
experienced either.

There's medical evidence that a part of our brain controls these
experiences. Only pseudo science of paranormal insists there's a spirit
entity that can travel beyond the the physical one based only on
empirical proof.

You can prove what is true or not *by your own personal experience*.
People who tell you you NOT to trust your own experiences on such matters are
insecure, bigoted or have their own agendas to advance. The point is after
all, not to merely beleive what someone else says is true, but to find out by
your personal experience.

Personal experiences are not up to the standards required as proof for
any claims you or I make. What is required are repeatable tests for
stated outcome. I don't even have to perform the tests personally to
trust the results.

There is too much phenomena, the mechanics of which cannot be explained by
human need.

So how do you handle new evidence that contradicts your beliefs? Do you
re-evaluate to modify and adapt, or do you reject it, or just pick out
the pieces that support your beliefs and reject the rest?

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...

I saw no evidence that you'd even visited the site.

You would've had to have actually read my response. But what's the
point? Congratulations on being the first jackass to be added to my killfile
in over 7 years.

PLONK

ryanm

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...

I do have a degree in EE and applied physics, as well as a
lifelong interest in theoretical physics, so I'm not
completely maladept at selecting or evaluating what I read,
and that's been pretty extensive if not inclusive.

You're wasting your breath on him...

ryanm

Try the "k" key in your newsreader. God put that there for
a reason.


Try posting audio related topics.

God says "learn to read".






searching for peace, love and quality footwear
guido

http://www.guidotoons.com
http://www.theloniousmoog.com
http://www.luckymanclark.com

Find a Jesus and God chat room, fellas.

E-****ing-nough already.

WWJD? Shut the **** up.


searching for peace, love and quality footwear
guido

http://www.guidotoons.com
http://www.theloniousmoog.com
http://www.luckymanclark.com

ryanm wrote:
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...

I saw no evidence that you'd even visited the site.

You would've had to have actually read my response. But what's the
point? Congratulations on being the first jackass to be added to my killfile
in over 7 years.

PLONK

Well, as the Scientific American link I posted amusingly demonstrates
(http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...49809EC588EEDF),
you offer the *exact same* arguments that 'ID' folks have been spouting for
years now. Those arguments have been addressed time and time again; I've pointed
you to several resources where you can see the by-now-standard answers. You
offer absolultely no acknowledgement of this rather key history, instead
acting as if there was actually something *so* new or unique or compelling
about your argumetns, and for some reason demanding a point-for-point rebuttal
in *my* own words, on *my* part ,i.e., from my POV, a reinvention of the wheel.
From this I conclude that you simply aren't aware of what's out there,
*except* on the ID side of things. Meanwhile , I *have* read Behe's book,
I *have* read the standard creationist tropes dozens of times over, I *have*
waded through the appalling muck that is sites like 'Answers in Genesis',
I *have* read the Bible.

I've done my part. So, go do yours I've certainly given you, or anyone else
reading, enough suggestions for starting points, talkorigins.org being
an excellent one. Here;s a few more
Web-based ones anyway:

National Center for Science Education
www.natcenscied.org

EvC forum
http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000044.html

The usual list with the usual answers, again:
http://www.swcp.com/%7Ediamond/evolution_answers.shtml

And another, even more detailed, with references:
http://www.vuletic.com/hume/cefec/index.html

On the will to believe:
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

Fallacy spotting:
http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/c...allacies.shtml

Omnium gatherum of scientific AND creationist sites (lots of dead
links, unfortuantely)
http://www.apokolips.com/evolution.html




--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

Bob Cain wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote:

Then again, how do you know that your concept of what is feasible,
is accurate, and not simply biased?

I don't. This isn't about science to me. As I've said, I
think that science and spirituality are orthogonal.

Then whence comes your concept of 'feasibility'? You might ask
yorself, if you beleive 'spirituality-based' answers are feasible, then are
there *any* limits to what is feasible -- does 'feasible' mean anything?


People commonly underestimate the probabilities of things happening
by chance, and therefore are more impressed than they rationally
should be. Psychological bias and the psychology of estimation and
judgement are fascinating subjects....but don't paint humans in
a particularly flattering light. I wonder how much religious
belief is founded simply on such phenomena.

I agree with you. At some point, however, the stacking of
all the various odds begins to look suspicious.

And *again*, that sense of 'suspicion' is not necessarily
warranted...how well-calibrated to real probabilities is
your sense of 'suspicion'?

I'm done with this thread; I *suspect* that Jesus wants us to
talk about audio instead, here. For evo/biogenesis talk,
I urge you to psot to the talk.origins Usenet newsgroup instead.




--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

JWelsh3374 wrote:

Try the "k" key in your newsreader. God put that there for
a reason.


Try posting audio related topics.

God says "learn to read".

Impasse.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Yes I got more from religion than most
if it was a bit less obnoxious I might never opened my eyes to its sins

Define "sins."..and I mean of the religion, not of the acts performed by those
claiming to follow it.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"anthony.gosnell" The problem with
introducing a "God entity" is that it makes things more
complicated because now you have to work out how a God can self assemble.

If you reject the idea of a Prime existence/creator you still have explain
how the Universe can "self-assemble", which is a quite tortured construct that
ends up eventually with there being a Prime force, or a pre-existing
*something*. The idea of a Prime being is a much simpler explanation.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

are you infering this is , or should be considered a christian
controlled state?

No..

this thought is truly scary ****, why can't you just honor your god myth
privatly, or perhaps show it some respect

So an avowed unbeliever is telling others how to honor "their" God myth?
You must be pretty smart!


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


Yes I got more from religion than most
if it was a bit less obnoxious I might never opened my eyes to its sins

Define "sins."..and I mean of the religion, not of the acts performed by those
claiming to follow it.




a religion is what the adherants of it do
unless of course your saying that there is all this religion, yet nobody
gives a damn and just does anything they want regardless of thier
religion
the religion is manifested in the people who embrace it
the ultimate measure of a religion is in the acts of its faithful, not
the paper with the words man wrote
George

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

"anthony.gosnell" The problem with
introducing a "God entity" is that it makes things more
complicated because now you have to work out how a God can self assemble.

If you reject the idea of a Prime existence/creator you still have explain
how the Universe can "self-assemble", which is a quite tortured construct that
ends up eventually with there being a Prime force, or a pre-existing
*something*. The idea of a Prime being is a much simpler explanation.

I guess you see it as simplier beacuse nothing will ever be able to
prove its non-existance, you are free to stick you head in the sand and
carry on with your ignorance
where as if you were to say the planet mars does not exist I could drag
you by your ear out to a feild and show it to you
really scary you baseyour faith on a entity that on the best day can
only be substantiated by the lack of evidence of it not being there
rather than strive to find the truth
george

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

are you infering this is , or should be considered a christian
controlled state?

No..

this thought is truly scary ****, why can't you just honor your god myth
privatly, or perhaps show it some respect

So an avowed unbeliever is telling others how to honor "their" God myth?
You must be pretty smart!

John I have as much knowledge of the christian God as anyone posting here
I understand the way the faith is to be held
I held that faith
and yes I am encouraging you to live by your God myth, privatly
God is not some sideshow freek dragged down main street to boost your
own ego
you are showing your god myth great disrespect, by simply useing it as a
ball to kick around here
you are not going to make me accept faith in a myth
all you are doing is using your god to belittle others
where as I am specificly not invoking a belief in god to point out the
lunacy in your claims
George

"ryanm"

WIllStg Because people who were clinically dead have observed out of body
what
was going on outside the room their dead body was in. Conversations,
events,
and recounting them verbatim after being revived.

Ryan Brain activity doesn't stop with your heartbeat. Your brain can
continue
to collect information from your eyes and ears for several minutes after you
are clinically dead.

Duh. Read my lips Ryan. What you can't explain is how clinically dead
eyes under clinically dead eyelids could see events happening with family
members OUTSIDE the room one's clinically dead body was in. Or how one could
hear conversations OUTSIDE the room the clinically dead body was in either.
Not physically possible to do so, and certainly not explainable by chemical
process. And many documented cases of it.

WillStG They have even visited people out of body and the person they
visited has
seen their spirit, some even had a conversation in a dream that both parties
could recount. How could chemical reactions in the dead person's brain
account
for "remote viewing" of this kind, or for a third person have a correlating
experience? They can't.

Ryan I would have to review those case by case in order to give them any
weight.

Please do. Or watch PAX TV, plenty of real life stories like that on that
network... g



Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I understand the way the faith is to be held
I held that faith
and yes I am encouraging you to live by your God myth, privatly
God is not some sideshow freek dragged down main street to boost your
own ego
you are showing your god myth great disrespect, by simply useing it as a
ball to kick around here
you are not going to make me accept faith in a myth
all you are doing is using your god to belittle others
where as I am specificly not invoking a belief in god to point out the
lunacy in your claims

I am belittling noone..I'm just not ashamed to admit that I don't know all
there is to know...a universal human strength..if recognized as such...because
to think otherwise is..well...


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

a religion is what the adherants of it do
unless of course your saying that there is all this religion, yet nobody
gives a damn and just does anything they want regardless of thier
religion
the religion is manifested in the people who embrace it
the ultimate measure of a religion is in the acts of its faithful, not
the paper with the words man wrote

I don't buy that Islam is only defined by the terrorist participants...but
your definition above seems to say that.






John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

George wrote:

why can't you just honor your god myth
privatly, or perhaps show it some respect
George

That's an odd sentiment from you, George. You seem not only
to have no respect for it at all but also none for the
people that do honor it and you say so quite publicly in a
lot of deprecating ways. That's behavior I've seen from
only one of us who do and in that case you've just gotta
consider the source.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
a religion is what the adherants of it do
unless of course your saying that there is all this religion, yet nobody
gives a damn and just does anything they want regardless of thier
religion
the religion is manifested in the people who embrace it
the ultimate measure of a religion is in the acts of its faithful, not
the paper with the words man wrote

I don't buy that Islam is only defined by the terrorist
participants...but
your definition above seems to say that.

Those are the most fundamental keeps of the faith
other muslims may not be so fundamentaly driven
I refuse to define all catholics by molesting preists
but they are part of the religion
a religion is what it followers do
and when bad outweighs the good then the religion is serving evil, as the
christian religion is doing with its moralistic vengence for control of our
media and government
and by forcing its self on other people and cultures but domestic and
foriegn

my entire argument for the elimination of religion is based on those who
choose to do Gods work by slaughter, coersion ,guilt,fear,subservance

Most people in religion are passive bystanders not really following, or even
knowing what thier religion calls for them to do

so we need to look to the ones who are actually doing something in the name
of God to see how the religion effects its followers

Are you being faithful to the call of your religion by your twisting God
to serve your desire to banter on in this thread?
George





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"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

why can't you just honor your god myth
privatly, or perhaps show it some respect
George

That's an odd sentiment from you, George. You seem not only
to have no respect for it at all but also none for the
people that do honor it and you say so quite publicly in a
lot of deprecating ways. That's behavior I've seen from
only one of us who do and in that case you've just gotta
consider the source.


I have not seen God given any respect, by those of faith here.
I have no desire to be beaten into giving respect to something that does not
exist
to do so would be hipocracy at its zenith
george


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"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

why can't you just honor your god myth
privatly, or perhaps show it some respect
George

That's an odd sentiment from you, George. You seem not only
to have no respect for it at all but also none for the
people that do honor it and you say so quite publicly in a
lot of deprecating ways. That's behavior I've seen from
only one of us who do and in that case you've just gotta
consider the source.

BTW Bob
I most likely do more to respect the various religions of the world than any
10 people you know though donating my professional skills and services for
free or vastly discounted rates to any church that calls
presbytian, baptist, korean christian, catholic, universilist,methodist
have provide free sound systems to each of these religions in the last 6
months
about the only "religion" I have not priveledged to donate my professional
services to is MINE
respecting a religion is not the same as defending it or God in a usenet
forum
george


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"George Gleason"

most likely do more to respect the various religions of the world than any
10 people you know though donating my professional skills and services for
free or vastly discounted rates to any church that calls
presbytian, baptist, korean christian, catholic, universilist,methodist
have provide free sound systems to each of these religions in the last 6
months

Nobody said you were going to hell for being a lapsed Catholic George.
What I said was if it wasn't working why did it take you 40 years to try
something else? If you had you might be less bitter about your experience, and
if you could recognize your own responsibility in that you might be a bit more
temperate in your off-hand remarks.

Sure, Ty might consider this a more "On Topic" "Off Topic" if I said you
were gonna be "Barbequed" in hell and what sauce was best for that, but it's
not that I'm not sympathetic. It's just that you project your own approach to
faith that didn't work for you on others, and tell them that's how it _should_
be done! Ouch.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
"George Gleason"

most likely do more to respect the various religions of the world than
any
10 people you know though donating my professional skills and services
for
free or vastly discounted rates to any church that calls
presbytian, baptist, korean christian, catholic, universilist,methodist
have provide free sound systems to each of these religions in the last 6
months

Nobody said you were going to hell for being a lapsed Catholic George

I am not a lapsed catholic, I am a non believer.

What I said was if it wasn't working why did it take you 40 years to try
something else?

Religion is a mighty powerful thing to purge from ones life
It takes LOTS and LOTS of evidence against religion before one is ready to
take that step

If you had you might be less bitter about your experience,

I have no bitterness, if you wern't try to create a image of me that does
not exist you would not have said that

and
if you could recognize your own responsibility in that you might be a bit
more
temperate in your off-hand remarks.

we started temopered, I respond in kind to what is delivered

Sure, Ty might consider this a more "On Topic" "Off Topic" if I said
you
were gonna be "Barbequed" in hell and what sauce was best for that, but
it's
not that I'm not sympathetic. It's just that you project your own
approach to
faith that didn't work for you on others, and tell them that's how it
_should_
be done! Ouch.

I have not once suggested anyone give up thier Religion or adopt my view
point
I have ask people to examine thier beliefs and faith, then think about what
isn truly happening
in the worlds religions today
then draw thier own conclusion as to what serves them best
Many people never question thier religion or government
All I ask is for people to take off the blinders and see the whole picture,
not just the world filtered through stained glass house they have been
living in

I offer a chance to open ones mind
religion offers one the chance to reject anything they are uncomfortable
with
even that man created god , if they wish
george


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits





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Religion is a mighty powerful thing to purge from ones life
It takes LOTS and LOTS of evidence against religion before one is ready to
take that step

Whoa!!! The proper word is is "you"..not ""one."

I have not once suggested anyone give up thier Religion or adopt my view
point
I have ask people to examine thier beliefs and faith, then think about what
isn truly happening
in the worlds religions today
then draw thier own conclusion as to what serves them best
Many people never question thier religion or government

You've made the naive mistake of assuming you know what others think and
believe by what YOU see.



I offer a chance to open ones mind
religion offers one the chance to reject anything they are uncomfortable
with
even that man created god , if they wish

YOU OFFER!!???
Lay it out so we can see the plan.
You're offering nothing in place of something.
A hard sell.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

I refuse to define all catholics by molesting preists
but they are part of the religion
a religion is what it followers do
and when bad outweighs the good then the religion is serving evil

A religion is what it's followers FOLLOW...their success in that may vary. The
molesting priests call themselves catholics but obviously are not following the
faith.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
I refuse to define all catholics by molesting preists
but they are part of the religion
a religion is what it followers do
and when bad outweighs the good then the religion is serving evil

A religion is what it's followers FOLLOW...their success in that may vary.
The
molesting priests call themselves catholics but obviously are not
following the
faith.

So please point to me someone who does follow every dictate
or are we talking about which parts of the religion are more important tahn
other parts and it is ok to call yourself a follower even though you choose
to ignore a great deal of what the religiopn says it stands for
why should anyone else be judged as wrong for not following even more of
that religion?
I am sure I could be accused of following parts of christianity even though
I reject it at it very core
so in actual;ity where is this religion if it is not followed? or the
faithful can do as they will and still find comfort in calling themselves
faithful?
how can they say they have God when they do not do as thier God orders them
to do?
are you religious if your not following your religion?
George


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"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
Religion is a mighty powerful thing to purge from ones life
It takes LOTS and LOTS of evidence against religion before one is ready
to
take that step

Whoa!!! The proper word is is "you"..not ""one."

please explane, I am not as well versed in syntax, and linguistics as you
are
I meant if one(anyone) has been breed in a religion it is a huge deal, takes
lots of eveidence to the lies and double standards of that religion before
one questions what they were taught
and once one questions then the mind begins to open
once you are free from the guilt and fear of god, then you can accept or
reject that religion/god from a informed decision
if you have not questioned your religion then you are not worthy of a
conversation aqbout those questions
I know your a pretty smart guy John, and I am guess you have questioned your
faith
but those questions so upset your reality you shut them down, and you feel
threatened by being asked to agian question what you were taught
this is why you argue but not defend

I have not once suggested anyone give up thier Religion or adopt my view
point
I have ask people to examine thier beliefs and faith, then think about
what
isn truly happening
in the worlds religions today
then draw thier own conclusion as to what serves them best
Many people never question thier religion or government

You've made the naive mistake of assuming you know what others think and
believe by what YOU see.

????
I know you think there is a god, is this incorrect? I see your posts that
made me believe this
am I wrong???



I offer a chance to open ones mind
religion offers one the chance to reject anything they are uncomfortable
with
even that man created god , if they wish

YOU OFFER!!???

as in make available to those who have not considered this ,Yes I have
offered


Lay it out so we can see the plan.
You're offering nothing in place of something.
A hard sell.

I offer arguments that point to the non-existence of God, though just as
with your arguments for the existence of God, neither can be established as
difinitive
I offered thinking points so that one might look about and try to find God
or find no god
my observations have brought be to put my faith in myself rather than some
MYTH
or theroy beacsue the result of investigateing all that is has brought me to
find a definite lack of God , and a overwhelming majority of people who use
the myth of God to further thier own agendas, be it banter on newsgroups or
fly planes into buildings, but none of this is bringing peace, love ,or
comfort into the world, so I must deduce that either God is argumentive to
a fault or down right evil
but by the faithful here I have not seen any love or acceptance, only
judgement and predjuice

I put forth that to lose the God myth eliminates one layer of hate and
predjuice from mankind
I can't see that as a bad thing
\be aware I do not hate you for believeing in God
but i also believe you , if you believe in god ougth to take your religion
more seriously and act in a more christ like manner, instead of lashing out
at the non-believer you should be demonstrating Gods good will and grace,
leading by example
you are not giving good testament for your faith
but if you do not care to act in a faithful manner, that does not really
surprise me.
george


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On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:40 PM, WillStG wrote:
Nobody said you were going to hell for being a lapsed Catholic
George.
What I said was if it wasn't working why did it take you 40 years
to try
something else?


Why did George W Bush stop drinking and doing cocaine?

We all change you know.

Tell us about your 23rd year epiphany Will.




---------------------------------------------------------
-----
"You Teach a Child to Read, and He or Her will be able to Pass a Literacy
Test" - George W Bush - Townsend Tn . Feb 21rst-2001
---------------------------------------------------------

So please point to me someone who does follow every dictate
or are we talking about which parts of the religion are more important tahn
other parts and it is ok to call yourself a follower even though you choose
to ignore a great deal of what the religiopn says it stands for
why should anyone else be judged as wrong for not following even more of
that religion?

OK..I'm not gonna go any further with this..we all need a rest..soooo..
You say you followed some form of Christianity for years..the questions you
just asked are simply answered by a believer. In my following I asked all these
things and got quick answers..maybe you never asked the right questions before.
Christianity is based on faith..not acts. This is what accounts for the joy
that Christians so often enjoy..unlike other systems that a based on deeds and
guilt. A believer aspires to Christlike behavior but we all fall short. How
each deals with this is a personal thing...and the elders of the clergy guide
us. Seems pretty staightforward. It's a walk..not a accomplishment.






John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Whoa!!! The proper word is is "you"..not ""one."

please explane, I am not as well versed in syntax, and linguistics as you
are
I meant if one(anyone) has been breed in a religion it is a huge deal, takes
lots of eveidence to the lies and double standards of that religion before
one questions what they were taught
and once one questions then the mind begins to open
once you are free from the guilt and fear of god, then you can accept or
reject that religion/god from a informed decision

I meant this may have been your experience but not others'.
That is exactly why I am where I am today..different strokes. I have been
actively involved in other education that has freed me from many normal
hinderances humans let drive their lives..and I find that faith fits quite
comfortably within that context.


if you have not questioned your religion then you are not worthy of a
conversation aqbout those questions

I was away from the church for 30 years ..and came back...so far it's been a
very rewarding experience.


You've made the naive mistake of assuming you know what others think and
believe by what YOU see.

????
I know you think there is a god, is this incorrect? I see your posts that
made me believe this
am I wrong???


I meant that you assumed that some act to serve themselves best and most people
I know often make choices based on convictions of faith..which is often to
serve others.

and a overwhelming majority of people who use
the myth of God to further thier own agendas, be it banter on newsgroups or
fly planes into buildings, but none of this is bringing peace, love ,or
comfort into the world, so I must deduce that either God is argumentive to
a fault or down right evil
but by the faithful here I have not seen any love or acceptance, only
judgement and predjuice

I think perhaps this is because you insist on observing the results of faith in
terms of the things you mention here..evil things. Again.. I'm sure if you took
a poll of all the active criminals in the world..faith is not their driving
force..and also not a deterent. I know some who obsess on the evil but I do
not.



but i also believe you , if you believe in god ougth to take your religion
more seriously and act in a more christ like manner, instead of lashing out
at the non-believer you should be demonstrating Gods good will and grace,
leading by example

You're right..as I have said we all fall short..I just don't plan on quitting
the team because I don't finish every race. BUT...a better way for a non
believer to perhaps approach this kind of discussion..is to realize..as you
have said.. that
neither side can be proven. I am saying I see benefits in many of my friends
who are believers..you say my faith is based on an evil lie.
I don't see how anyone could react in a way you would find acceptable as your
premise is that we are fools.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

.. I am saying I see benefits in many of my friends
who are believers..you say my faith is based on an evil lie.
I don't see how anyone could react in a way you would find acceptable as
your
premise is that we are fools.

just say I accept my faith and will do what I can to keep it private
I will not make laws or censor media based on my religious convictions, but
rather on preventing one person from harming another
I will allow people to do with thier bodies and minds what they choose
Homosexuality is fine, as it does not affect me, I support thier right to
marry
just keep your faith to yourself do not feel your answers need to become
universial thruth, beacuse many , many , many people see your faith is one
based on lies and double standards and have no interest in being governened
by the "Do what I say, not what I do crowd" or the
"do it beacuse God said to do it" crowd
G


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"reddred" wrote in message
...

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...

things and got quick answers..maybe you never asked the right questions
before.
Christianity is based on faith..not acts.

Certain types of -protestant- christainity are based on faith, not acts.

so one can not hold the church accountable for the actions of its preists
that line of thinking didn't fly in Boston
the church is / religion is what it does
not what it says
Just as I am what I do
not what I say

of course you try to do what you say
but ultimatly you are what you do
george


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