[hank alrich]

John O wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
John O wrote:

OK, mics. He needs a decent general purpose mic for about $100. It'll be
used mainly for overhead drums, acoustic guitar and vocals.

MCA SP-1 $39.99 from http://www.pssl.com

Get two of them, so he can learn how to use stereo overheads.

If you search the r.a.p archives you can find plenty good talk about
this silly cheap mic, a freak of nature. It is ridiculously better than
it has any right to be.

I have Schoeps, Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG, etc., and I have a pair of
these, too.

I tried searching, but the results are overwhelming! Thanks Hank, I do
recall seeing these mentioned before, and I had them in mind when I posted
this morning.

BTW, John, I think your boy is hot enough on this that if you possibly
can get him the ProTools LE rig you will not regret it. Yes, there are
many other options, some cheaper, etc., but PT is ubiquitous and
learning it will serve him well, IMO.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[John O[_2_]]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
John O wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
John O wrote:

OK, mics. He needs a decent general purpose mic for about $100. It'll
be
used mainly for overhead drums, acoustic guitar and vocals.

MCA SP-1 $39.99 from http://www.pssl.com

Get two of them, so he can learn how to use stereo overheads.

If you search the r.a.p archives you can find plenty good talk about
this silly cheap mic, a freak of nature. It is ridiculously better than
it has any right to be.

I have Schoeps, Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG, etc., and I have a pair of
these, too.

I tried searching, but the results are overwhelming! Thanks Hank, I do
recall seeing these mentioned before, and I had them in mind when I
posted
this morning.

BTW, John, I think your boy is hot enough on this that if you possibly
can get him the ProTools LE rig you will not regret it. Yes, there are
many other options, some cheaper, etc., but PT is ubiquitous and
learning it will serve him well, IMO.

--

Thanks again. I looked at that MBox2 pretty seriously, the ProTools bundle
is attractive. Thing is, he's been wanting a small mixer for quite a while.
The Alesis seems to be a good balance of features and price, and allows him
to use it standalone. The discussion about the Behringer having a module
that isn't fully matched turned me off, although that's the same as buying
any old mixer and adding a USB sound card, I suppose. I'll be buying after I
pay the IRS, and all options are still viable. :-)

Thanks guys, you took me from knowing nothing about this stuff all the way
up to having a clue.

-John O

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

RD Jones wrote:

"The MultiMix mixers also have USB audio, which allows
direct computer audio interfacing for 16-bit simultaneous
stereo input and output using standard recording
software." This is an important distinction. I wonder which is
correct ?

Alesis has both USB and Firewire mixers. The Firewire
ones have individual channel outputs as well as a mix
output. The USB ones have only the stereo mix output.

Hmm, that's not what their web site says. See my quote from them a few posts
back in this thread. Is their web site in error?

[John O[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

RD Jones wrote:

"The MultiMix mixers also have USB audio, which allows
direct computer audio interfacing for 16-bit simultaneous
stereo input and output using standard recording
software." This is an important distinction. I wonder which is
correct ?

Alesis has both USB and Firewire mixers. The Firewire
ones have individual channel outputs as well as a mix
output. The USB ones have only the stereo mix output.

Hmm, that's not what their web site says. See my quote from them a few
posts back in this thread. Is their web site in error?

The Multimix 8 USB: http://www.alesis.com/multimix8usb
USB 1.1 Stereo input/Output

I think the info you quoted was for the MultiMix 8 USB 2.0 model, but the
specs on their site are thin. And their frackin site won't work with Firefox
to get manuals. Bastids. Some reviews confirm that the 2.0 model sends eight
channels in via USB and two out. Being as my kid is primarily a drummer, he
wants to use that feature. He can buy his own mics for all that. ;-)

-John O

[Mike Rivers]

John O wrote:

I looked at that MBox2 pretty seriously, the ProTools bundle
is attractive. Thing is, he's been wanting a small mixer for quite a while.
The Alesis seems to be a good balance of features and price, and allows him
to use it standalone.

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other unless money is REALLY tight.
There's
an advantage to working with ProTools in that it's so standard that it's
really a good
idea to learn about it. If he takes a class or school program in
recording, chances
are ProTools will be involved.

The discussion about the Behringer having a module
that isn't fully matched turned me off, although that's the same as buying
any old mixer and adding a USB sound card, I suppose.

Yup. It's a pet peeve of mine that when it comes to cost cutting, input and
output level controls are the first to go. But you can deal with this. A
box
with a pad is a good first home construction project (a skill that every
recording engineer should have) and if you don't want ot get into that, a
pair of in-line attenuators is an overpriced but still inexpensive
solution.

http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-.../dp/B0006N41B0



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[John O[_2_]]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
John O wrote:

I looked at that MBox2 pretty seriously, the ProTools bundle is
attractive. Thing is, he's been wanting a small mixer for quite a while.
The Alesis seems to be a good balance of features and price, and allows
him to use it standalone.

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other unless money is REALLY tight.
There's
an advantage to working with ProTools in that it's so standard that it's
really a good
idea to learn about it. If he takes a class or school program in
recording, chances
are ProTools will be involved.

So, you're saying that an MBox2 could be used as the interface for a regular
console? I'm guess I'm not seeing the advantage in that other than ProTools,
which is a big thing. What part of the $350 price is Pro-Tools?

Regarding the USB 2.0 system from Alesis...the eight-channel path into the
computer sounds like an important feature, but I'm still vulnerable to
marketing hype.




The discussion about the Behringer having a module
that isn't fully matched turned me off, although that's the same as
buying any old mixer and adding a USB sound card, I suppose.

Yup. It's a pet peeve of mine that when it comes to cost cutting, input
and
output level controls are the first to go. But you can deal with this. A
box
with a pad is a good first home construction project (a skill that every
recording engineer should have) and if you don't want ot get into that, a
pair of in-line attenuators is an overpriced but still inexpensive
solution.

http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-.../dp/B0006N41B0


Great idea to build some stuff...I could make him take a few of the Heathkit
home-study electronics courses over the summer...I have a ton of test
equipment and parts.

-John O

[[email protected]]

On Apr 1, 9:52*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
snip

Yup. It's a pet peeve of mine that when it comes to cost cutting, input and
output level controls are the first to go. But you can deal with this. A
box
with a pad is a good first home construction project (a skill that every
recording engineer should have) and if you don't want ot get into that, a
pair of in-line attenuators is an overpriced but still inexpensive
solution.

Are you implying that an engineer should know which end of a soldering
iron to pick up and actually be hands-on? You Philistine! :-)

[Mike Rivers]

John O wrote:

So, you're saying that an MBox2 could be used as the interface for a regular
console?

Yes. Connect the Main outputs of the mixer to the Line Inputs of the MBox.

I'm guess I'm not seeing the advantage in that other than ProTools,
which is a big thing. What part of the $350 price is Pro-Tools?

It's really hard to say. Since ProTools only runs on specific hardware, you
really can't separate the price. While I don't have a specific model in
mind,
a USB interface with two analog mic/line/instrument inputs, two analog line
outputs, stereo digital input and MIDI in/out for about $200-$250, with
maybe a
copy of Cubase or Sonar (Limited editions) thrown in. The MBox2 has a
rudimentary mixer that lets you monitor (via its headphone jack) a mix of
whatever you're sending it (mics, etc.) and a mix of previously recorded
tracks played back from the computer.

Regarding the USB 2.0 system from Alesis...the eight-channel path
into the
computer sounds like an important feature, but I'm still vulnerable to
marketing hype.

I'm not really up on the Alesis models, but you made me look. From the
manual
(which, by the way, you should download and study):

Channels sent from the MultiMix to the computer

The USB2.0 port sends every individual mixer channel as well as
the MultiMix’s MAIN OUT/2-TRACK OUT left and right signals
to the computer. This means that, for the MultiMix 8 USB2.0, 8
individual channels are sent to the computer along with the MAIN
stereo pair (10 channels in total).

Great idea to build some stuff...I could make him take a few of the Heathkit
home-study electronics courses over the summer...I have a ton of test
equipment and parts.

Is that what Heathkit is doing these days? I think I was 12 when I built my
first Heathkit, a communications receiver. I didn't even know Heath was
still in business, but they had a really good market share from the mid
1950s and for the next 30 years or so.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[John O[_2_]]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
John O wrote:

So, you're saying that an MBox2 could be used as the interface for a
regular console?

Yes. Connect the Main outputs of the mixer to the Line Inputs of the MBox.

I'm guess I'm not seeing the advantage in that other than ProTools, which
is a big thing. What part of the $350 price is Pro-Tools?

It's really hard to say. Since ProTools only runs on specific hardware,
you
really can't separate the price. While I don't have a specific model in
mind,
a USB interface with two analog mic/line/instrument inputs, two analog
line
outputs, stereo digital input and MIDI in/out for about $200-$250, with
maybe a
copy of Cubase or Sonar (Limited editions) thrown in. The MBox2 has a
rudimentary mixer that lets you monitor (via its headphone jack) a mix of
whatever you're sending it (mics, etc.) and a mix of previously recorded
tracks played back from the computer.

Regarding the USB 2.0 system from Alesis...the eight-channel path into
the
computer sounds like an important feature, but I'm still vulnerable to
marketing hype.

I'm not really up on the Alesis models, but you made me look. From the
manual
(which, by the way, you should download and study):

Channels sent from the MultiMix to the computer

The USB2.0 port sends every individual mixer channel as well as
the MultiMix’s MAIN OUT/2-TRACK OUT left and right signals
to the computer. This means that, for the MultiMix 8 USB2.0, 8
individual channels are sent to the computer along with the MAIN
stereo pair (10 channels in total).

I'll fire up IE and get the manual, had to do that last week and swore at
them then, too. :-)

The MBox2 has just two inputs, where the Alesis has eight. Setting aside the
software and preamp differences, how important are the extra inputs? Depends
on what's being recorded I suppose, eh? A nice feature than nobody really
uses?



Great idea to build some stuff...I could make him take a few of the
Heathkit home-study electronics courses over the summer...I have a ton of
test equipment and parts.

Is that what Heathkit is doing these days? I think I was 12 when I built
my
first Heathkit, a communications receiver. I didn't even know Heath was
still in business, but they had a really good market share from the mid
1950s and for the next 30 years or so.

Educational courseware is all we do now. A stealth business...we sell to
tech high schools and colleges, so you never hear about it. I'm in the
middle of writing a course about mobile robots. Anthropomorphism is making
my robot crazy.

-John O

[Arny Krueger]

"John O" wrote in
message

The MBox2 has just two inputs, where the Alesis has
eight. Setting aside the software and preamp differences,
how important are the extra inputs? Depends on what's
being recorded I suppose, eh? A nice feature than nobody
really uses?

I guess it depends on whether our budding recording engineer is going to be
a one man show forever, or whether he's going to want to have some friends
playing along at the same time.

[Mike Rivers]

John O wrote:

The MBox2 has just two inputs, where the Alesis has eight. Setting aside the
software and preamp differences, how important are the extra inputs? Depends
on what's being recorded I suppose, eh? A nice feature than nobody really
uses?

Yes, it depends on how you use it. If you only own two microphones and
that's
all you'll ever use, then an 8 input mixer isn't going to do you a lot
of good. But
if you want to record the whole rhythm section at once, or you want to have
separate mics on each one of the drums, you'll need a bunch of inputs. A
mixer,
as long as it has decent preamps (and most of today's mixers have at least
acceptable preamps) is an economical way to get what you need.


A lot of people, too, use a mixer as a switcher. They have a bunch of
instruments that they keep plugged in to the mixer inputs. That way when
someone wants to play this keyboard, he just pushes up that fader, and if
he wants to play another keyboard, he pushes up this fader, but he doesn't
play both keyboards at the same time, so he's not really mixing.

You'd do well to get a copy of The Mackie Compact Mixer Reference Manual.
It's built around Mackie mixers, but it's very informative. You can download
it chapter by chapter, or order a printed copy at:
http://www.mackie.com/support/compactmixer/index.html

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[RD Jones]

John O wrote:

So, you're saying that an MBox2 could be used as the interface for a
regular console?

Any interface that accepts standard line levels can be used with any
mixer (or other device) that outputs standard line levels.
The problem arises when a pair of connected devices don't operate
at similar levels or can't be adjusted to accomodate each other.

I'm guess I'm not seeing the advantage in that other than ProTools, which
is a big thing. What part of the $350 price is Pro-Tools?

The hardware is probably about a hunderd bucks.
The rest is the licensing fee they charge you to be able to run
their included "free" software ;;-

The MBox2 has just two inputs, where the Alesis has eight. Setting aside the
software and preamp differences, how important are the extra inputs? Depends
on what's being recorded I suppose, eh? A nice feature than nobody really
uses?

It's really nice to have at least 4 channels to track a drumset.
2 overheads, one on kick and a spot mic on snare.
A minimal jazz style setup could get good results without the snare
spot.
But for pop-rock, etc the spot mic lets you have more control over
effects
added to the snare.

For 3 guys jamming with vocals (that's the eventual goal here, isn't
it?)
8 channels is filled up right away.

rd

[Phil W]

John O wrote:

I think a USB mixer is just the ticket, this gives him recording and
remote mixing all in one package. I like the price, too.

Walmart?
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10333985

Beh or Alesis?
http://www.wwbw.com/Alesis-MultiMix-...-i1153370.wwbw

I would definitely go with Behringer in this case! Some friends of mine use
an "Alesis Multimix16 Firewire" in the rehearsal space. The fact, that each
channel is routed to an individual output channel is nice, but that´s about
the only good thing about this mixer. They use it as a classic small mixer
for vocals when rehearsing and plan to use it for DIY drum recordings etc.
As far as I´m concerned, I have recorded some rehearsals for them over the
last year and got the chance to play a bit with this mixer. I´ve used quite
a few Behringer mixers in similar situations, so I can somehow compare
both...
Well, the Alesis Multimix feels like a cheap toy and the EQ is so crappy,
that I usually try not to use it if possible. Every Behringer mixer I´ve had
hands-on experience with felt more stable and sounded better. That isn´t
meaning to say the small Behringer mixers are really great, but they are a
much better choice than the Alesis Multimix series. IMHO in the price range
up to 200$ or so, Behringer is probably the best you can get.

If you want 8 mic channels with direct outs, you will have to spend more
than 200$ on the mixer alone. Besides the mixer, you will also need an audio
interface for the computer with 8 input channels. This is, where it starts
to get pricey...

Anyway, I also want to mention, that I have experienced single faders fail
on several Behringer MX mixers. And these were only used very lightly in
home-studios or rehearsal spaces - they never were abused on the road.
Someday some faders only had contact, when a finger was pressed on it. For
the price, one can´t expect best quality... usually, they work long enough
to be worth their money and it´s also possible to replace the faders.
Besides that, if one channel´s fader start to fail, there are others you can
use...
This applies *only* to slide faders for channels, I´ve never experienced any
problems with any pots on small Behringer mixers.
And, this can happen on every mixer, since it´s rather a mechanical problem.
The question is, WHEN it will happen, not IF...

Still, I would choose any Behringer mixer over this utter crap that Alesis
puts its name on. They have so many other products, which gave them a good
reputation. But this "Multimix" is simply not worth the parts it´s built of.
:-\ It somehow works, but that´s about it.


Phil

[Phil W]

RD Jones wrote:
John O wrote:

So, you're saying that an MBox2 could be used as the interface for
a regular console?

Any interface that accepts standard line levels can be used with any
mixer (or other device) that outputs standard line levels.
The problem arises when a pair of connected devices don't operate
at similar levels or can't be adjusted to accomodate each other.

This applies to the Mbox as well as any other audio interface for
computers...

The MBox2 has just two inputs, where the Alesis has eight. Setting
aside the software and preamp differences, how important are the
extra inputs? Depends on what's being recorded I suppose, eh? A nice
feature than nobody really uses?


Well, read my other post in this thread on the Alesis Multimix16 Firewire.
Then take a look at the market for such external USB (and maybe Firewire,
too) audio interfaces. Most are in the same price range. So, go figure why
Alesis can offer 8 individual outputs for a similar price that other
manufacturers want for a 2 output device... There´s a difference in quality.
And this difference is already noticable in the home-recording/hobbyist
league.
Another *very* important thing is driver support for devices, that are used
with computers! Alesis obviously doesn´t really care about "older" products
as the Multimix16 Firewire - which is about 2 years "old" now - the newest
driver they offer is in their "archived products" support. I would assume,
the same will happen for their current interfaces in 2 years down the road.
The real problem is, that the latest driver for Windows is a bunch off
crap - most of the time it records okay, but if you playback your
recordings, there´s digital terror in the form of constant crackles etc. -
sounds like a buffer problem or so. This happens with various computers, so
it´s not due to a system failure in the computer. At least my notebook works
flawlessly with a MOTU 828 mk2 regularly in a different small project
studio.
Last sunday, I´ve just recorded a rehearsal through that Alesis mixer and
after 5 or 6 songs - which were recorded as single "takes" in the same
project file - that stupid driver issue even messed up the recorded files
with heavy crackles in the individual .WAV files!!! It took 3 complete
Windows reboots and a switch off and back on of the mixer/interface to get
rid of the problem!
This is something I´ve never experienced before with any other soundcard or
external audio interface, I´ve used since 2003 (when I started doing this
kind of stuff)...

It's really nice to have at least 4 channels to track a drumset.
2 overheads, one on kick and a spot mic on snare.
A minimal jazz style setup could get good results without the snare
spot.
But for pop-rock, etc the spot mic lets you have more control over
effects added to the snare.

For this approach, a 4 channel interface like the M-Audio "Fast Track Pro"
would be sufficient.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...rackUltra.html

M-Audio has a reputation for good drivers and you can also use the device as
a basic "mixer" (pre-amps only, no individual channel EQs) in stand-alone
mode. Besides that, any M-Audio interface can also be used with "ProTools
M-Powered", since M-Audio has been bought by Digidesign. The downside is,
that this software has to be bought separately, but it will give you the
option of getting into the PT world, if you want to go that route.

For 3 guys jamming with vocals (that's the eventual goal here, isn't
it?)
8 channels is filled up right away.

Definitely true, e. g.: 4 channels for drums (kick, snare, 2 overheads), 1
channel for bass, 1 channel for guitar, 2 channels for vocals. Of course,
this setup can be alternated, but that would be a typical situation. If you
have a second guitar or a keyboard (recorded in mono), there´s only one
channel less left for vocals...


Phil