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#1
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's
not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. I need to find a suitable material for box construction besides MDF, and fiberglass appealed to me. I bought 200 lbs of fiberglass mat, and that should be more than enough. My question is how well will fiberglass cabinets sound? I'm planning on making a minimal frame out of wood, as well as the mounting hole from MDF, covering all of this with canvas, applying hardener, and then applying the fiberglass mat and finishing with a light coat of bondo. Is there something light that I can fill the frame with that will help out with dampening or expect better response? Also, how would I go about figuring out what box volume to shoot for? thanks a million Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
In article ,
justin time wrote: I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. lol What type of xo's are you runnin? I need to find a suitable material for box construction besides MDF, and fiberglass appealed to me. I bought 200 lbs of fiberglass mat, and that should be more than enough. My question is how well will fiberglass cabinets sound? As long as its thick enough, the sound will more depend on volume of the enclosure rather than material used. I'm planning on making a minimal frame out of wood, as well as the mounting hole from MDF, covering all of this with canvas, applying hardener, and then applying the fiberglass mat and finishing with a light coat of bondo. Is there something light that I can fill the frame with that will help out with dampening or expect better response? Some use batting, cotton, polyfill, insulation. IMO Stay away from the pink insulation as the particles can get into VC's. Also, how would I go about figuring out what box volume to shoot for? Depends on drivers, type of enclosure and tuning you're after. thanks a million Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com -- Cyrus *coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough* |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
You've got to be ****ing kidding right? *vomits*
-- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message ... I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. I need to find a suitable material for box construction besides MDF, and fiberglass appealed to me. I bought 200 lbs of fiberglass mat, and that should be more than enough. My question is how well will fiberglass cabinets sound? I'm planning on making a minimal frame out of wood, as well as the mounting hole from MDF, covering all of this with canvas, applying hardener, and then applying the fiberglass mat and finishing with a light coat of bondo. Is there something light that I can fill the frame with that will help out with dampening or expect better response? Also, how would I go about figuring out what box volume to shoot for? thanks a million Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in news:KpTJf.807499
$xm3.471141@attbi_s21: You've got to be ****ing kidding right? *vomits* Not all boxes are made from MDF... I've seen quite a few fiberglass boxes, but the ones I've heard sounded alright. The weight of 4 large MDF boxes and 10 smaller boxes would be a lot to put into a small Honda. Albeit fiberglass isn't the lightest material in the world, even a thick layering would be less weight than MDF. How can you sit there and knock what you don't like? Maybe not everyone wants to have your car and your setup. I'm going to laugh when my system sounds great, and looks a HELL of a lot better than any MDF boxes you could make. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Cyrus wrote in
: In article , justin time wrote: I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. lol What type of xo's are you runnin? I have several amps and speakers. I still haven't decided on which 6x9's I'm going to get, although I already have 4 soundstorm 4-way 6x9's and a BOSS 1000W Ripper amp to run them 2 on each channel at 2ohms, full range. I like Soundstorm 6x9's. They sound VERY good, and I don't care what anyone says. They have crystal clarity when amped well and they have bass support good enough to cover mid-bass and a lot of middle and treble. The two tens I have are BOSS DVC 10's and I'm going to run these also on another BOSS ripper 1000W amp that I have at 2 ohms stereo. I'll be utilizing the amp's built-in crossover for this. But these subs only drop down to about 30hz or so, and I just wanted them for more punch. I'm putting these close to the seats and getting 2 15's for lower bass support. I have another BOSS 1400W ripper amp. I want to get 2 Ultralinear ULX154D subs but I haven't made a final decision on this. I am thinkin about these subs because of the frequency response. They're excellent. And at the price I really don't have to worry about reliability. If they last for at least a year I'll have gotten my money's worth IMO. I'll be utilizing the built-in crossover on the amp for this also. Finally, I was looking at getting some more 6x9's and another amp for more sound reinforcement. I like the sound of sealed boxes better than ported. It's just a personal preference of mine. I don't mind that it's not as efficient or loud as a ported enclosure. Sealed boxes just seem to be a lot smoother at low frequency and not as sharp. I'm not looking for an ultra-loud system. I'm not tryin to blow the roof off my car or make my ears bleed, and I'm not tryin to compete with anyone else's system. I just want superior overall clarity and a broad range of frequencies that can actually be heard and distinguished from one another at high volumes with low distortion. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Yo dude, I am not knocking fiberglass, I like fiberglass enclosures and
customization... You are far from educated on what 'boxes I could make', so don't go there. I was knocking the fact that you will be putting in (10) 6x9's. I just find that amusing. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message .144... "Austin Becker" wrote in news:KpTJf.807499 $xm3.471141@attbi_s21: You've got to be ****ing kidding right? *vomits* Not all boxes are made from MDF... I've seen quite a few fiberglass boxes, but the ones I've heard sounded alright. The weight of 4 large MDF boxes and 10 smaller boxes would be a lot to put into a small Honda. Albeit fiberglass isn't the lightest material in the world, even a thick layering would be less weight than MDF. How can you sit there and knock what you don't like? Maybe not everyone wants to have your car and your setup. I'm going to laugh when my system sounds great, and looks a HELL of a lot better than any MDF boxes you could make. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in news:K6UJf.564688
$084.368953@attbi_s22: rote in message news:Xns976F7166681Cjustintimenospam Alright, my bad... but still, I find that high-wattage amped 6x9's with good EQ are the clearest-sounding mains for the price. More will add clarity and overall sound production so they don't get overloaded and drowned out by the bass frequencies, not to mention car and road noise. So far I've only tried 4 at a time at 2ohms stereo. I basically want a stereo wall of 6x9's. I'm not ALL about bass. 4-way 6x9's support a wider range of frequencies and still have a little mid-bass and a bit of low end punch. I don't want to invest everything into subs and end up with no upper-low end, middle or high end clarity. My brother-in-law does this. His trunk is loaded with subs and you can't even hear his little distorted mains. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in
news:y9UJf.807552$xm3.144187@attbi_s21: Than start by not getting 10 6x9's. That shows that you want to blow your roof off and make your ears bleed. And BOSS audio is ****. That is another reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. I respect critical comments if they're constructive rather than downgrading. I like BOSS amps. They're actually my favorite. In my last setup my ripper amp pumped a consistant load without distortion or overheating. That's why I bought two more. Can't beat the price, either. The only problem I have with the ripper amp is the chrome-plating. Keeping it clean is a bitch. As far as the amount of 6x9's, I explained the reason in another post. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
I did some math....
4 x Soundstorm 6x9 @ $50 average = $200 2 x UltraLinear ULX154D @ $100 = $200 2 x 10" BOSS (Ripper I assume) @ $30 = $60 1 x 1400W BOSS Ripper amp @ $126 2 x 1000W BOSS Ripper amp @ $96 = $192 That takes you to $778 invested already, and that doesn't include shipping on any of those. These prices were from ebay and google. Then you want to add 6 more 6x9's to make a total of 10. That should be close to $300 taking into the 1000's. Then you want to buy the materials to fiberglass all of this in. That should be at a minimum $300. There's ~$1378 + S&H which for all of that would run around the ball park of another $300 or so. $1600+. And for what??? A bunch of crappy ass swap meet equipment. With that kind of money to invest, you could have a killer system with far less speakers, and less weight. The fact that you are defending that system with $1600 to invest makes me want to vomit which is what stemmed the comment earlier. Reconsider bro. You've got enough to get some really good sound and not waste your interior space and weight your car down. If you do it right, you'll have enough money left over for some cinder blocks if you want to weigh your car down like that. Not to mention you didn't say a word about upgrading your electrical system. LOL I am litterally laughing out loud. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "Austin Becker" wrote in message news:y9UJf.807552$xm3.144187@attbi_s21... Than start by not getting 10 6x9's. That shows that you want to blow your roof off and make your ears bleed. And BOSS audio is ****. That is another reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message .144... Cyrus wrote in : In article , justin time wrote: I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. lol What type of xo's are you runnin? I have several amps and speakers. I still haven't decided on which 6x9's I'm going to get, although I already have 4 soundstorm 4-way 6x9's and a BOSS 1000W Ripper amp to run them 2 on each channel at 2ohms, full range. I like Soundstorm 6x9's. They sound VERY good, and I don't care what anyone says. They have crystal clarity when amped well and they have bass support good enough to cover mid-bass and a lot of middle and treble. The two tens I have are BOSS DVC 10's and I'm going to run these also on another BOSS ripper 1000W amp that I have at 2 ohms stereo. I'll be utilizing the amp's built-in crossover for this. But these subs only drop down to about 30hz or so, and I just wanted them for more punch. I'm putting these close to the seats and getting 2 15's for lower bass support. I have another BOSS 1400W ripper amp. I want to get 2 Ultralinear ULX154D subs but I haven't made a final decision on this. I am thinkin about these subs because of the frequency response. They're excellent. And at the price I really don't have to worry about reliability. If they last for at least a year I'll have gotten my money's worth IMO. I'll be utilizing the built-in crossover on the amp for this also. Finally, I was looking at getting some more 6x9's and another amp for more sound reinforcement. I like the sound of sealed boxes better than ported. It's just a personal preference of mine. I don't mind that it's not as efficient or loud as a ported enclosure. Sealed boxes just seem to be a lot smoother at low frequency and not as sharp. I'm not looking for an ultra-loud system. I'm not tryin to blow the roof off my car or make my ears bleed, and I'm not tryin to compete with anyone else's system. I just want superior overall clarity and a broad range of frequencies that can actually be heard and distinguished from one another at high volumes with low distortion. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Well I wasn't suggesting investing in nothing but subs, but you could get a
killer sub, midbass driver, nice components, and an amp for each for less than you would be spending on that nonsense, and if you've already got the amps all you have to do is get a really nice sub, some components for the front, and use the 6x9's you have for mid range and BLOW the system you described away. Even an Alpine Type R 12" sub @ $110 would probably sound as good as the 2 Boss Audio 10's. And if you really want a 15" you could get one type R 15" for $200 and completely negate the 10's from the picture. If put in the right sized enclosure, and amped properly, you could get plenty of bass without being overwhelming to your front stage. Not to mention the weight it would save you, and space. Then you've plenty of change left over for your components. Since you've got 3 amps, there should be no problem other than Xover, and you said you'll be using the amp's built in for that. You could do way better and get respectable equipment that's not flea market apparel and sound excellent. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message .144... "Austin Becker" wrote in news:K6UJf.564688 $084.368953@attbi_s22: rote in message news:Xns976F7166681Cjustintimenospam Alright, my bad... but still, I find that high-wattage amped 6x9's with good EQ are the clearest-sounding mains for the price. More will add clarity and overall sound production so they don't get overloaded and drowned out by the bass frequencies, not to mention car and road noise. So far I've only tried 4 at a time at 2ohms stereo. I basically want a stereo wall of 6x9's. I'm not ALL about bass. 4-way 6x9's support a wider range of frequencies and still have a little mid-bass and a bit of low end punch. I don't want to invest everything into subs and end up with no upper-low end, middle or high end clarity. My brother-in-law does this. His trunk is loaded with subs and you can't even hear his little distorted mains. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in news:smUJf.807567
$xm3.65106@attbi_s21: I've already bought most of this equipment - the only thing remaining is the two extra subs, 6x9's and another amp, and I don't mind if it's so- called "flea market" equipment. The coverage area of 10 6x9's is going to cover far more area than fewer speakers would. It's just my preference. I know there are higher quality drivers available, but I like what I like. My first amp was a Pyramid. You can't get any cheaper than that, but on a pair of 6x9's it was perfectly clear and had excellent response. I later wired two more into the picture at 2 ohms and I've been doing the same thing ever since because I just fell in love with the increased coverage. Don't get me wrong, I am open to a critically constructive debate here, but I've already invested a lot of money and I'm set to do what I've already started. I already understand that it's not the best setup in the world, but I'd like it to be the best setup for what I have, and I have quite a bit. Much of the fiberglass is already being used on interior components, anyways, and I've bought a lot of it. The drivers I've chosen are definately open to debate. I understand that different drivers have different response and clarity. I've never had BOSS drivers before now, but I figured they be good for handling the basic low end and provide a little punch. I bought them because I had good experiences with BOSS amps and I figured maybe they'd make good driver's, too. As for the 6x9's, however, I've had many name brands that sounded like pure ****, same for the subs, also. The worst investment I made was on two Audiobahn DVC 15's. I've had Pyle subs that sounded better, and I'm not kidding, and I'll never buy another Audiobahn sub for as long as I live, just from that one experience. you didn't say a word about upgrading your electrical system. LOL As far as the electrical is concerned, I already bought a 160 amp alternator, plus a 5 farad capacitor. I might get a deep cycle battery later if I find it's worth it. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
And BOSS audio is ****. That is another
reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. You know, he wasn't asking your opinion about the quality of Boss amps so your "don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want...." argument is really pretty ridiculous. Unless someone is asking your OPINION about something, I really don't think unsolicited comments are called for. IMHO, it seems rude and frankly, petty. If you don't like something about someone's system, simply DON'T ANSWER THEIR QUESTION. Not everyone can afford the best stuff, and yet they are still VERY PROUD OF THEIR SYSTEM. That's what makes this sport great, you don't need tons of money to get into it, and there's COUNTLESS ways to build a system (some will be untraditional). If you don't like this fact, go start your own Usenet group, for instance: rec.audio.high-end.car. MOSFET |
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
In article smUJf.807567$xm3.65106@attbi_s21,
"Austin Becker" wrote: I did some math.... 4 x Soundstorm 6x9 @ $50 average = $200 2 x UltraLinear ULX154D @ $100 = $200 2 x 10" BOSS (Ripper I assume) @ $30 = $60 1 x 1400W BOSS Ripper amp @ $126 2 x 1000W BOSS Ripper amp @ $96 = $192 That takes you to $778 invested already, and that doesn't include shipping on any of those. These prices were from ebay and google. Then you want to add 6 more 6x9's to make a total of 10. That should be close to $300 taking into the 1000's. Then you want to buy the materials to fiberglass all of this in. That should be at a minimum $300. There's ~$1378 + S&H which for all of that would run around the ball park of another $300 or so. $1600+. And for what??? A bunch of crappy ass swap meet equipment. With that kind of money to invest, you could have a killer system with far less speakers, and less weight. The fact that you are defending that system with $1600 to invest makes me want to vomit which is what stemmed the comment earlier. Reconsider bro. You've got enough to get some really good sound and not waste your interior space and weight your car down. If you do it right, you'll have enough money left over for some cinder blocks if you want to weigh your car down like that. Not to mention you didn't say a word about upgrading your electrical system. LOL I am litterally laughing out loud. Damn, it's like the dot-bomb people who went all luxury by gold leafing everything in their yard. Austin, your highly specialized setup would do MUCH better by purchasing specialized equipment. A truckload of junk from the local tire store won't do it. You need to research your equipment better. Soundstorm/Boss is cheap garbage with ridiculously exaggerated specifications. You'll be lucky if the power specifications are overstated by only 10x. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "Austin Becker" wrote in message news:y9UJf.807552$xm3.144187@attbi_s21... Than start by not getting 10 6x9's. That shows that you want to blow your roof off and make your ears bleed. And BOSS audio is ****. That is another reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message .144... Cyrus wrote in : In article , justin time wrote: I have a lot of speakers to install in my car. Unfortunately the engine's not that strong and building MDF speaker cabinets for all of them would probably weigh at least 300 pounds or more. I'm going for 10 6x9's, 2 10'' subs and 2 15'' subs. lol What type of xo's are you runnin? I have several amps and speakers. I still haven't decided on which 6x9's I'm going to get, although I already have 4 soundstorm 4-way 6x9's and a BOSS 1000W Ripper amp to run them 2 on each channel at 2ohms, full range. I like Soundstorm 6x9's. They sound VERY good, and I don't care what anyone says. They have crystal clarity when amped well and they have bass support good enough to cover mid-bass and a lot of middle and treble. The two tens I have are BOSS DVC 10's and I'm going to run these also on another BOSS ripper 1000W amp that I have at 2 ohms stereo. I'll be utilizing the amp's built-in crossover for this. But these subs only drop down to about 30hz or so, and I just wanted them for more punch. I'm putting these close to the seats and getting 2 15's for lower bass support. I have another BOSS 1400W ripper amp. I want to get 2 Ultralinear ULX154D subs but I haven't made a final decision on this. I am thinkin about these subs because of the frequency response. They're excellent. And at the price I really don't have to worry about reliability. If they last for at least a year I'll have gotten my money's worth IMO. I'll be utilizing the built-in crossover on the amp for this also. Finally, I was looking at getting some more 6x9's and another amp for more sound reinforcement. I like the sound of sealed boxes better than ported. It's just a personal preference of mine. I don't mind that it's not as efficient or loud as a ported enclosure. Sealed boxes just seem to be a lot smoother at low frequency and not as sharp. I'm not looking for an ultra-loud system. I'm not tryin to blow the roof off my car or make my ears bleed, and I'm not tryin to compete with anyone else's system. I just want superior overall clarity and a broad range of frequencies that can actually be heard and distinguished from one another at high volumes with low distortion. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Austin, your highly specialized setup would do MUCH better by purchasing specialized equipment. A truckload of junk from the local tire store won't do it. You need to research your equipment better. Soundstorm/Boss is cheap garbage with ridiculously exaggerated specifications. You'll be lucky if the power specifications are overstated by only 10x. It's not his, it's mine. And it's not junk because I like it. Furthermore, the power ratings are not overstated. They drive fine for me. Seems like a user error if people can't figure out how to get it to work correctly. Sorry I don't have a million dollars to buy the best of the best. If it sounds good enough, that's good enough for me. I'm not planning on hitting any stereo competitions, you know? I just want wide distribution. I want to hear my music clearly, hearing nothing else - no road noise, no car engine, no wind - and I want to hear the whole band. If it satisfies all those requirements, I'm satisfied. Cheap, junk, whatever... It'll still sound better than a lot of people's systems out there running all bass and a few tweeters causing an earthquake of distorted nonsense. I don't care what you say, BOSS makes good amps. Maybe if you tried one you could say something about them. Have you even HEARD one? If so, maybe it wasn't set up optimally, or it wasn't pushing its maximum load. Mine has produced consistantly clear sound at even the highest volumes with nearly no distortion and I've never overheated it once. More than I can say for the people I've known with those "high quality" amps that ended up rolling smoke. Also, I am ECSTATICALLY pleased with Soundstorm's 6x9's. They sound excellent. If you have such a great ear that you can interpret the difference between their sound and another company than YOU buy the other speakers. I like them and I'll continue using them. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Also, I am ECSTATICALLY pleased with Soundstorm's 6x9's. They sound
excellent. If you have such a great ear that you can interpret the difference between their sound and another company than YOU buy the other speakers. I like them and I'll continue using them. Here, here. Well said, Justin! You know, I think some people fall into the trap of thinking that there is only one right way to do things. If you are into competing, then that tends to be true. I used to compete in IASCA back in the day (I used to do pretty well, actually) and there were countless rules to follow and an accepted way a stereo should sound. But as I get older, I realize that the only thing that matters is if I LIKE IT!!! For instance, I always thought that rear-fill should be barely audible. But over the years I have come to realize that I LIKE my music to sound like it is coming from all around me (like headphones). So that's how I set-up my system. If you are happy with your gear and it's sound, that's ALL THAT MATTERS! Furthermore, you are absolutely right about your comment regarding setting up the Boss amps correctly. Boss has been in business a while and if they TRULY built crap, they would not have lasted this long. The simple truth with amplifiers is that THEY ALL SOUND THE SAME. Sure, the specs may be a little different, but to the human ear, no one can tell the difference from one to the next. If they say they can, they ARE LYING (or mistaken, the mind can play tricks on a person, making you THINK you hear a difference). I believe it was Julian Hirsch (I could be wrong) who offered $10,000 to anyone who could tell the difference between a mulit-kilobuck tube amp, a VERY expensive solid-state amp, and a cheapo solid state amp. In a carefully set-up test environment, no one has been able to do it (I'm quite sure that no one has yet claimed the prize). I have a Soundstream amp and a Fosgate amp, as well as a Jensen amp, and they ALL SOUND THE SAME TO ME. MOSFET |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"MOSFET" wrote in
: Also, I am ECSTATICALLY pleased with Soundstorm's 6x9's. They sound excellent. If you have such a great ear that you can interpret the difference between their sound and another company than YOU buy the other speakers. I like them and I'll continue using them. Here, here. Well said, Justin! You know, I think some people fall into the trap of thinking that there is only one right way to do things. If you are into competing, then that tends to be true. I used to compete in IASCA back in the day (I used to do pretty well, actually) and there were countless rules to follow and an accepted way a stereo should sound. But as I get older, I realize that the only thing that matters is if I LIKE IT!!! For instance, I always thought that rear-fill should be barely audible. But over the years I have come to realize that I LIKE my music to sound like it is coming from all around me (like headphones). So that's how I set-up my system. If you are happy with your gear and it's sound, that's ALL THAT MATTERS! Furthermore, you are absolutely right about your comment regarding setting up the Boss amps correctly. Boss has been in business a while and if they TRULY built crap, they would not have lasted this long. The simple truth with amplifiers is that THEY ALL SOUND THE SAME. Sure, the specs may be a little different, but to the human ear, no one can tell the difference from one to the next. If they say they can, they ARE LYING (or mistaken, the mind can play tricks on a person, making you THINK you hear a difference). I believe it was Julian Hirsch (I could be wrong) who offered $10,000 to anyone who could tell the difference between a mulit-kilobuck tube amp, a VERY expensive solid-state amp, and a cheapo solid state amp. In a carefully set-up test environment, no one has been able to do it (I'm quite sure that no one has yet claimed the prize). I have a Soundstream amp and a Fosgate amp, as well as a Jensen amp, and they ALL SOUND THE SAME TO ME. MOSFET Thanks for the support. It just seems to me like common sense. I have found these amps to have true quality in MY experience and I favor them. It's almost as stupid as the kids who make fun of people for not wearing the most expensive clothes. A better analogy would be someone telling me that I shouldn't eat my favorite food - tacos - because it's not their favorite, and then downgrade me for doing so. I got so many compliments from the clarity and response of a set of 4- way Soundstorm 6x9's running on a PYRAMID CRYSTAL AMP it's rediculous; and from how I hear it, the sound COULD NOT be better for the price I paid for them. Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
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#17
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Justin,
I'm not going to knock your selection of brands, because I thought you defended your decisions rather well and I agree that you're the only one that you need to make happy. HOWEVER. I don't care what brand you like, you DON'T need 10 6x9s to get crystal-clear sound. You can buy them if you want, it's your life, but don't kid yourself by thinking you need a bunch of speakers to do the same job a few well-installed ones will. Soundstorm or Soundstream, Boss or Boston Acoustics...you don't "need" 10 of them to overcome road noise and "hear the band". And that holds true for subs, too. I realize you've already purchased some of your equipment, but unless you're just looking for the challenge of a complicated install...think "less is more" or "more is not always better". It's so, so true. Tony -- 2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1 Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub |
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#18
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Tony F" wrote in
: Justin, I'm not going to knock your selection of brands, because I thought you defended your decisions rather well and I agree that you're the only one that you need to make happy. HOWEVER. I don't care what brand you like, you DON'T need 10 6x9s to get crystal-clear sound. You can buy them if you want, it's your life, but don't kid yourself by thinking you need a bunch of speakers to do the same job a few well-installed ones will. Soundstorm or Soundstream, Boss or Boston Acoustics...you don't "need" 10 of them to overcome road noise and "hear the band". And that holds true for subs, too. I realize you've already purchased some of your equipment, but unless you're just looking for the challenge of a complicated install...think "less is more" or "more is not always better". It's so, so true. Tony Thanks for the complement and the criticism. I think I may have left out one vital element that factors into all this, though. My car was once tore down and a lot of it was fiberglassed to make it lighter for racing. At the moment, there is no dash, no carpet, no back seat, door panels or window seals. Because of this there is a lot of road and wind noise and even the higher-end speakers will get drowned out quite a bit. Although I'm in the process of fixing all that, I would like the stereo to overpower these noises as it is now. That way it can only be that much better whenever I reinstall new interior and dampening materials. |
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#19
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
justin time wrote:
"Tony F" wrote in : Justin, I'm not going to knock your selection of brands, because I thought you defended your decisions rather well and I agree that you're the only one that you need to make happy. HOWEVER. I don't care what brand you like, you DON'T need 10 6x9s to get crystal-clear sound. You can buy them if you want, it's your life, but don't kid yourself by thinking you need a bunch of speakers to do the same job a few well-installed ones will. Soundstorm or Soundstream, Boss or Boston Acoustics...you don't "need" 10 of them to overcome road noise and "hear the band". And that holds true for subs, too. I realize you've already purchased some of your equipment, but unless you're just looking for the challenge of a complicated install...think "less is more" or "more is not always better". It's so, so true. Tony Thanks for the complement and the criticism. I think I may have left out one vital element that factors into all this, though. My car was once tore down and a lot of it was fiberglassed to make it lighter for racing. At the moment, there is no dash, no carpet, no back seat, door panels or window seals. Because of this there is a lot of road and wind noise and even the higher-end speakers will get drowned out quite a bit. Although I'm in the process of fixing all that, I would like the stereo to overpower these noises as it is now. That way it can only be that much better whenever I reinstall new interior and dampening materials. Nevertheless, Tony's statement stands: you DON'T need THAT MANY speakers to do the job. A pair of good 6.5" three-ways in the front and another in the rear with sufficient power is enough to bleed your ears. And while you may "like" your 6x9s, any oval speaker design - 6x9, 4x6, 4x10 - is inherantly defective, non-linear, and inaccurate. They are simply a stupid and pointless design that was not invented by a speaker manufacturer, but by an auto manufacturer who wanted to put bigger speakers in a narrower deck, and should have died out 30 years ago. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0607-2, 02/16/2006 Tested on: 2/19/2006 6:08:35 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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#20
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Fiberglass speaker construction
You know, Tony, I didn't think the multi-6x9 approach was that bad an idea.
We all know that, all things being equal, your typical 6x9 is comparable to your typical 8" subwoofer. As most car makers have moved away from the 6x9, I imagine prices have gone down consideribly for these types of speakers. So, if you are the type who likes LOTS of sound coming from behind you, 6x9's may give you THE MOST bang for the buck. Again, it's like buying an 8' subwoofer, midrange and tweeter all in one low-price package. I can CERTAINLY see this being the best way to go for some people. MOSFET |
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#21
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
A pair of good 6.5" three-ways in the front and another
in the rear with sufficient power is enough to bleed your ears. With treble, perhaps. But I have used many different top-of-the-line 6.5" SEPARATES (not coaxials) including Boston Acoustics, MB Quart and JL, with very powerful amplifiers and none have ever even COME CLOSE to providing enough bass for even moderate listening. Of course, I do listen to techno, rap, and my wife thinks I am going deaf  .MOSFET |
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#22
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
You can't use the "not everyone can afford" argument with me when they guy
is blatantly going out to buy ridiculous amounts of gear. I already posted the math on this stuff. The argument that I am making with this kid is that just because you add more speakers does not mean the clarity will get better. In fact, this will lead to ALL KINDS of phase issues creating cancellation he's never even dreamed about. He wants to fiberglass this setup in, which is going to be far more laborious and expensive than fiberglassing maybe the 4 6x9's and the subs. The fact that the opening thread specifically mentioned the savings in weight that he would be getting using fiberglass over MDF becomes null and void when you buy as many speakers as you can fit in the car. If every comment the kid makes didn't contradict the last comment he made, I would be less inclined to say much. Typically I could care less if someone is buying cheap equipment for a "great" system, because they usually aren't going to put 85 speakers in one car either (sarcasm). But the fact that this guy is actually saying things like "I want two 10's, and two 15's but I don't want to blow the roof off" is asinine, as well as the fact that since "soundstorm 6x9's have crystal clarity, I am going to add 6 more 6x9's to my setup and put 1400W amplifiers on them." Does this not seem like fallacious reasoning to you? And not to mention that those figures are for max power, not for RMS, so in reality it's 700W RMS which is likely blown far out of reality. It's easy for someone who hasn't heard really nice equipment to say that their setup is great, but the fact that this kid actually has compared Pyle and audiobahn to one another confirms my theories. Who ever said audiobahn is a good speaker is what I'd like to know. Talk about ratings blown from reality. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "MOSFET" wrote in message m... And BOSS audio is ****. That is another reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. You know, he wasn't asking your opinion about the quality of Boss amps so your "don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want...." argument is really pretty ridiculous. Unless someone is asking your OPINION about something, I really don't think unsolicited comments are called for. IMHO, it seems rude and frankly, petty. If you don't like something about someone's system, simply DON'T ANSWER THEIR QUESTION. Not everyone can afford the best stuff, and yet they are still VERY PROUD OF THEIR SYSTEM. That's what makes this sport great, you don't need tons of money to get into it, and there's COUNTLESS ways to build a system (some will be untraditional). If you don't like this fact, go start your own Usenet group, for instance: rec.audio.high-end.car. MOSFET |
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#23
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
That is not their intention. Unless you bought them to be a dedicated mid
bass driver. Component speakers are not designed for bass, they're designed for range. Components, Midbass and subs should be fine, but he is right about the 6x9's and other oval speakers. Speaker manufacturers had to design their own because of auto manufacturers making stupid decisions like this. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "MOSFET" wrote in message m... A pair of good 6.5" three-ways in the front and another in the rear with sufficient power is enough to bleed your ears. With treble, perhaps. But I have used many different top-of-the-line 6.5" SEPARATES (not coaxials) including Boston Acoustics, MB Quart and JL, with very powerful amplifiers and none have ever even COME CLOSE to providing enough bass for even moderate listening. Of course, I do listen to techno, rap, and my wife thinks I am going deaf .MOSFET |
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#24
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Well, OK, I see your point and I can't really argue with anything you've
said. But, again, he wasn't asking if his system was a good idea or not. I just don't think unsolicited snipes at someone's gear, install or judgment is really necessary in this forum. It just creates an atmosphere of hostility where the next guy may not ask his question because he's too afraid people will start knocking his system. I hope you can see this. MOSFET "Austin Becker" wrote in message news:Ah2Kf.565406$084.186693@attbi_s22... You can't use the "not everyone can afford" argument with me when they guy is blatantly going out to buy ridiculous amounts of gear. I already posted the math on this stuff. The argument that I am making with this kid is that just because you add more speakers does not mean the clarity will get better. In fact, this will lead to ALL KINDS of phase issues creating cancellation he's never even dreamed about. He wants to fiberglass this setup in, which is going to be far more laborious and expensive than fiberglassing maybe the 4 6x9's and the subs. The fact that the opening thread specifically mentioned the savings in weight that he would be getting using fiberglass over MDF becomes null and void when you buy as many speakers as you can fit in the car. If every comment the kid makes didn't contradict the last comment he made, I would be less inclined to say much. Typically I could care less if someone is buying cheap equipment for a "great" system, because they usually aren't going to put 85 speakers in one car either (sarcasm). But the fact that this guy is actually saying things like "I want two 10's, and two 15's but I don't want to blow the roof off" is asinine, as well as the fact that since "soundstorm 6x9's have crystal clarity, I am going to add 6 more 6x9's to my setup and put 1400W amplifiers on them." Does this not seem like fallacious reasoning to you? And not to mention that those figures are for max power, not for RMS, so in reality it's 700W RMS which is likely blown far out of reality. It's easy for someone who hasn't heard really nice equipment to say that their setup is great, but the fact that this kid actually has compared Pyle and audiobahn to one another confirms my theories. Who ever said audiobahn is a good speaker is what I'd like to know. Talk about ratings blown from reality. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "MOSFET" wrote in message m... And BOSS audio is ****. That is another reason that I think that you've no idea what you're talking about. You could spend the same amount of money on far less speakers of superior quality and have twice the clarity (in my opinion) than that ****. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want someone else's input be it critical or complimentary. You know, he wasn't asking your opinion about the quality of Boss amps so your "don't post on public newsgroups if you don't want...." argument is really pretty ridiculous. Unless someone is asking your OPINION about something, I really don't think unsolicited comments are called for. IMHO, it seems rude and frankly, petty. If you don't like something about someone's system, simply DON'T ANSWER THEIR QUESTION. Not everyone can afford the best stuff, and yet they are still VERY PROUD OF THEIR SYSTEM. That's what makes this sport great, you don't need tons of money to get into it, and there's COUNTLESS ways to build a system (some will be untraditional). If you don't like this fact, go start your own Usenet group, for instance: rec.audio.high-end.car. MOSFET |
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#25
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"MOSFET" wrote in
: You know, Tony, I didn't think the multi-6x9 approach was that bad an idea. We all know that, all things being equal, your typical 6x9 is comparable to your typical 8" subwoofer. As most car makers have moved away from the 6x9, I imagine prices have gone down consideribly for these types of speakers. So, if you are the type who likes LOTS of sound coming from behind you, 6x9's may give you THE MOST bang for the buck. Again, it's like buying an 8' subwoofer, midrange and tweeter all in one low-price package. I can CERTAINLY see this being the best way to go for some people. MOSFET My sentiments exactly. Driver "walls" don't just apply to subwoofers. I'd like a large array of full-range speakers. I'm not THAT concerned with the bass production of the 6x9's, but even still, the little bass that they do produce has different sound characteristics that I actually like. IMO it's complimentary to the bass you get from subwoofers. |
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#26
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in
news:xk2Kf.808327$xm3.106140@attbi_s21: That is not their intention. Unless you bought them to be a dedicated mid bass driver. Component speakers are not designed for bass, they're designed for range. Components, Midbass and subs should be fine, but he is right about the 6x9's and other oval speakers. Speaker manufacturers had to design their own because of auto manufacturers making stupid decisions like this. You have to look at it from an economical standpoint, too. 4-way 6x9's - although not "perfect" by any means - are do-it-all speakers, and they do it well all things considering. Give or take, you can safely say that most well-amplified 6x9's are going to far outperform similar 5.25'' drivers, especially the ones that are running off the deck amp, and you can't beat all that sound coming from one little compact package. Just my opinion. |
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#27
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in
news:Ah2Kf.565406$084.186693@attbi_s22: Nobody seems to understand my logic in this, so I'll break it down and try to explain it a little better... this kid First of all, I'm not a "kid." I'm 25 years old. just because you add more speakers does not mean the clarity will get better. The clarity of the frequency response will NOT get better, no. You are correct. BUT, it will help with sound reinforcement and allow the clarity that IS there to push thru the rest of the noise, like road noise and wind. You can't deny this. That is my main logic in all this. which is going to be far more laborious and expensive than fiberglassing maybe the 4 6x9's and the subs. How do you know how much fiberglass I can get for how much money, and how much I already have? Fiberglass fabrication is a hobby for me. I even made my car's body kit. The fact that the opening thread specifically mentioned the savings in weight that he would be getting using fiberglass over MDF becomes null and void when you buy as many speakers as you can fit in the car. Actually, no, it doesn't. If I'm intent on putting x amount of speakers in my car, they're going to require x amount of boxes. x amount of fiberglass boxes is going to weigh far less than the same amount of MDF boxes. I'll assume you already understood that. If every comment the kid makes didn't contradict the last comment he made, I would be less inclined to say much. I'm not a "kid," and I haven't contradicted myself. I know what I want in my car and I have a rough idea on how I'm going to do it. Typically I could care less if someone is buying cheap equipment for a "great" system, because they usually aren't going to put 85 speakers in one car either (sarcasm). You might like having 2 or 4 mains, but I want more. See my argument for "reinforcement" above. But the fact that this guy is actually saying things like "I want two 10's, and two 15's but I don't want to blow the roof off" is asinine, If I wanted to blow the roof off, I would have bought competition subwoofers and amps, wouldn't I? Naturally, you can understand that with 10 6x9's, you're going to need a significant amount of bass to back that up and cut through the mix. It doesn't necessarily have to be loud, it's just reinforcement that I am worried about. The main issue here is sound quality. The subs are there just to reinforce the low-end of the spectrum, not to go around mexi-thumping in my neighborhood with my hat on backwards letting everyone know how cool I am. I drive a LOT, and I want excellent sound reproduction, not competition volumes. I chose my subwoofers for frequency response. The 10's that I selected respond down to 30hz. I want another set to respond around 20hz. Run them together and they should make a nice compliment to each other. as well as the fact that since "soundstorm 6x9's have crystal clarity, I am going to add 6 more 6x9's to my setup and put 1400W amplifiers on them." Does this not seem like fallacious reasoning to you? Again, reinforcement. And not to mention that those figures are for max power, not for RMS, so in reality it's 700W RMS which is likely blown far out of reality. RMS on my amp is AS STATED when run at 2 ohms stereo. Thanks. It's easy for someone who hasn't heard really nice equipment to say that their setup is great, but the fact that this kid actually has compared Pyle and audiobahn to one another confirms my theories. Who ever said audiobahn is a good speaker is what I'd like to know. Talk about ratings blown from reality. Lots of people claim Audiobahn to be badass speakers. I've always thought they were junk ever since I bought my first. And I was simply stating that you can make Pyle's sound good if you have them in a good configuration, depending on what you wanted to do with them. Now that you're finished calling me "kid" and all that bull****, just tell me how you expected to run spongehead's SVC subs bridged into 2ohms. That's what I thought. Okay, thanks, bye  |
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#28
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
You know, Justin, I get the idea that many here have never heard a good set
of 6X9's in proper enclosures driven by ample power. I have and the effects are startling. A 6.5" driver just can't produce much usable bass below about 60-70Hz, where a car's transfer function really kicks in. Most 6x9's CAN. Therefore, IN A CAR, the difference between a 6x9 and a 6.5" driver is VERY DRAMATIC. Unless you have ever heard this, I just don't think you realize how dramatic this effect is. I heard a car once with just a pair of 6x9's and I could SWEAR it had a pair of 10's!!! In high-school, a friend of mine had a wall of 4 6x9's in a tiny Datsun and the bass massaged your back and guts. It's all about the transfer function and being able to use those magic frequencies. MOSFET |
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#29
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
I overlooked the 2 channel portion of that... my fault.
-- - AUSTIN BECKER just tell me how you expected to run spongehead's SVC subs bridged into 2ohms. |
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#30
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
"Austin Becker" wrote in news:%X3Kf.565766
$084.492310@attbi_s22: I overlooked the 2 channel portion of that... my fault. Sorry for arguin, I just get aggrivated sometimes when people call me "kid." |
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#31
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Are you familiar with recording techniques and how music is recorded to
recreate the image of a stage in front of you with the musicians playing as if you were at a concert? You say you are more interested in the overall sound quality rather than the pressure level, but putting a wall of mid/full range speakers behind you is far from similar to putting a wall of subwoofers behind you. A wall of subwoofers is there to add volume (3db per subwoofer assuming they are all utilizing the same power and are the same subwoofer). The same type of thing will happen with your speakers, they will get louder, however the music will be coming from behind you, and I will make the assumption that you will have speakers in front of you as well. This will created quite the phasing/cancellation problem and an enormous amount of midrange pressure, so I hope you are ready to engage that issue. Also, with music coming from the front of you, and behind you, this causes your brain to tell you ears which speakers to listen to as they compete with each other for volume. This becomes very fatiguing on the brain and the ears, and can lead to other problems. Now with having 4 way 6x9's (several of them) there will be a full array of frequencies coming from behind you, and will definitely cause some hearing issues/cancellation problems, and your front stage is going to be severely lacking. This is assuming that you still plan to go with two 10's and two 15's. That will produce a good amount of bass, and will definitely overwhelm your front stage. Just something to chew on. -- - AUSTIN BECKER "justin time" wrote in message ... "MOSFET" wrote in : You know, Tony, I didn't think the multi-6x9 approach was that bad an idea. We all know that, all things being equal, your typical 6x9 is comparable to your typical 8" subwoofer. As most car makers have moved away from the 6x9, I imagine prices have gone down consideribly for these types of speakers. So, if you are the type who likes LOTS of sound coming from behind you, 6x9's may give you THE MOST bang for the buck. Again, it's like buying an 8' subwoofer, midrange and tweeter all in one low-price package. I can CERTAINLY see this being the best way to go for some people. MOSFET My sentiments exactly. Driver "walls" don't just apply to subwoofers. I'd like a large array of full-range speakers. I'm not THAT concerned with the bass production of the 6x9's, but even still, the little bass that they do produce has different sound characteristics that I actually like. IMO it's complimentary to the bass you get from subwoofers. |
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#32
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Sorry for arguin, I just get aggrivated sometimes when people call me
"kid." That's OK, son. |
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#33
Posted to rec.audio.car
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"Austin Becker" wrote in
news  34Kf.565817$084.62215@attbi_s22:Are you familiar with recording techniques and how music is recorded to recreate the image of a stage in front of you with the musicians playing as if you were at a concert? You say you are more interested in the overall sound quality rather than the pressure level, but putting a wall of mid/full range speakers behind you is far from similar to putting a wall of subwoofers behind you. A wall of subwoofers is there to add volume (3db per subwoofer assuming they are all utilizing the same power and are the same subwoofer). The same type of thing will happen with your speakers, they will get louder, however the music will be coming from behind you, and I will make the assumption that you will have speakers in front of you as well. This will created quite the phasing/cancellation problem and an enormous amount of midrange pressure, so I hope you are ready to engage that issue. Also, with music coming from the front of you, and behind you, this causes your brain to tell you ears which speakers to listen to as they compete with each other for volume. This becomes very fatiguing on the brain and the ears, and can lead to other problems. Now with having 4 way 6x9's (several of them) there will be a full array of frequencies coming from behind you, and will definitely cause some hearing issues/cancellation problems, and your front stage is going to be severely lacking. This is assuming that you still plan to go with two 10's and two 15's. That will produce a good amount of bass, and will definitely overwhelm your front stage. Just something to chew on. I've thought about that, and I haven't decided on how I'm going to deal with it or make it work, but the general idea was to have all of the 6x9's mounted behind. I want to have two mounted to the ceiling on each side and two mounted on top of the 10'' cabs on each side, all directly behind the seats. |
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#34
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
justin time wrote:
"MOSFET" wrote in : You know, Tony, I didn't think the multi-6x9 approach was that bad an idea. We all know that, all things being equal, your typical 6x9 is comparable to your typical 8" subwoofer. As most car makers have moved away from the 6x9, I imagine prices have gone down consideribly for these types of speakers. So, if you are the type who likes LOTS of sound coming from behind you, 6x9's may give you THE MOST bang for the buck. Again, it's like buying an 8' subwoofer, midrange and tweeter all in one low-price package. I can CERTAINLY see this being the best way to go for some people. MOSFET My sentiments exactly. Driver "walls" don't just apply to subwoofers. I'd like a large array of full-range speakers. I'm not THAT concerned with the bass production of the 6x9's, but even still, the little bass that they do produce has different sound characteristics that I actually like. IMO it's complimentary to the bass you get from subwoofers. Well if you're trying to pack in as many speakers as possible, ditch the 6x9s and go for the 4x10s, you'll be able to achieve a much higher density and you'll be the King of the Trailer Park. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0607-2, 02/16/2006 Tested on: 2/19/2006 1:02:04 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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#35
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Reply below...
MOSFET wrote: The simple truth with amplifiers is that THEY ALL SOUND THE SAME. Sure, the specs may be a little different, but to the human ear, no one can tell the difference from one to the next. If they say they can, they ARE LYING (or mistaken, the mind can play tricks on a person, making you THINK you hear a difference). I believe it was Julian Hirsch (I could be wrong) who offered $10,000 to anyone who could tell the difference between a mulit-kilobuck tube amp, a VERY expensive solid-state amp, and a cheapo solid state amp. In a carefully set-up test environment, no one has been able to do it (I'm quite sure that no one has yet claimed the prize). I have a Soundstream amp and a Fosgate amp, as well as a Jensen amp, and they ALL SOUND THE SAME TO ME. MOSFET It is Richard Clark from Carsound that offered the $10,000 prize, but it is a bit different than you state. Below are the rules. And its not quite that "all amps sound the same", but that all amps will sound the same when within their linear range, without being driven to clipping, and with and features that change the sound disabled, like crossovers, EQs, etc. Essentially it comes down to a watt is a watt. Many of the "cheaper" brands overrate their equipment which is what gives them their "junk" nickname. When they say "1000 watts" but it is only really capable of maybe 100-200 watts in real-life use, that's the thing that irks most people. A general way to know approximately how much watts an amplifier will do is to add the fuse ratings together (inside the amp, not on the wire, and multiply by voltage. That won't account for efficiency, but i'll likely get you closer than what is printed on the box. Brandonb THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000} By Richard Clark There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier performance and our ability to hear performance differences. It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems. Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible. What differences are Audible? I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psyco-acoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Comparing Amps The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers with consecutive serial numbers. For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs." Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a balanced amp. Right? Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section. Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions 1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- ..05 dB. 2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -) 3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above. 4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance. 5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those circuits bypassed. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one (only one and the listener can decide which) of the amps to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in one signal path only should make the test even easier. 6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI). 7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem. 8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp. 9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener. 10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched. 11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. Page 1 of 2 In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according to the following rules. Amplifier Test Comparison Rules 1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the listener can provide any commercially available speaker system as long as it uses dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot exceed the rated load impedance of the amplifiers tested. If, however, the tester would like to perform the test in a car, we will use a car, however, it will have to be provided by the test subject. For practicality we will have to limit the number of amplifier channels to four or less. 2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal 14 volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both amps) 3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the power capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less) 4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music. 5. The listener can compare two amps at a time for as long as desired. For practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than a few hours. A test session will consist of 12 A/B sequences. Passing the test will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12 sequences. Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of 12. If the differences are so great, and a subject can really hear the difference, then he/she should be able to do so for all 12 sequences. 6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions of 12 comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The amp of choice can be compared to the same or a different amp in each session - challengers choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo inventory such as, but not limited to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX, Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, etc. You can pick any of them or bring your own. 7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system." 8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test will require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or cooling of the amp. This means that the entire test session will have to be repeated. 9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage or current requirement. 10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial session to qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money prize. Any 2 amps can be used for this test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6 out of 8 correct answers. 11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be acceptable for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers would give it away.) 12. Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the $10,000.00 prize. 13. Cost to take the test is $100.00. $300.00 for people representing companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done correctly the test takes several hours and I don’t have the time if you aren’t serious. * Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct listening but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy listening. The way people describe the differences is that they are like night and day. I would certainly not have any trouble choosing between an apple and an orange 12 times in a row. When compared fairly I believe the differences in amps are much too small to audibly detect and certainly too small to pay large sums of extra money for. If I am wrong someone should be able to carefully take this test and win my money. Even if I am right, if enough people take the test eventually someone will take my money due to random chance. This is the reason for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily pass this test but 12 sequences will give you "listening fatigue" I am willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered is a challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let a confident challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are willing to make this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to drop 1 sequence for every thousand dollars put up by the challenger against my money. This would mean: ____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to win__ $10,000 to $0 = 12 Tries $9,000 to $1,000 = 11 Tries $8,000 to $2,000 = 10 Tries $7,000 to $3,000 = 9 Tries $6,000 to $4,000 = 8 Tries $5,000 to $5,000 = 7 Tries $4,000 to $6,000 = 6 Tries I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be statistically meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling. |
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#36
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
I could really care less about what brand of speakers are used or how
much was paid, etc. But Austin does bring up a good point here for any system. The more speakers introduced, the more phase issues become probable and very likely, problematic. Just verifying positive and negative on each speaker may not be enough, in and of itself. All ten 6x9s (discounting all other point-sources) would need to be equidistant from the listener. If some are closer than others, it could create a problem. I'll have more in another post in this thread. Brandonb Austin Becker wrote: The argument that I am making with this kid is that just because you add more speakers does not mean the clarity will get better. In fact, this will lead to ALL KINDS of phase issues creating cancellation he's never even dreamed about. |
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#37
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Inline...and OP snipped slightly
justin time wrote: The clarity of the frequency response will NOT get better, no. You are correct. BUT, it will help with sound reinforcement and allow the clarity that IS there to push thru the rest of the noise, like road noise and wind. You can't deny this. That is my main logic in all this. If your prime objective is overpowering or to "push thru" the road noises, you may wish to focus your energies on ways to minimize those instead. For instance, sound deadening and dampening. Products like Dynamat and similar work great... for rattles and resonating surfaces. It'll do jack for road noise though. For that, dampening is what you'd want to do. For a good example, try pulling up your vehicle's carpet some time. You'll notice a funky foam/fabric cushiony underlining. This stuff is pretty similar to what you'd find under carpet in a house also. You can buy this stuff at carpet stores or online, etc and for pretty cheap. Like 15 cents a square foot or less. It comes in different thicknesses as well. Find where most of the noise is coming through and put some in. It wouldn't hurt to add some deadening in those spots as well, expecially in doors and on backs of interior panels. Windshields are of course the weakness in this plan. How do you know how much fiberglass I can get for how much money, and how much I already have? Fiberglass fabrication is a hobby for me. I even made my car's body kit. I envy you. You can even use your fiberglassing skills to beef up the deadening and dampening. A couple layers on the backs of interior paneling for instance. Actually, no, it doesn't. If I'm intent on putting x amount of speakers in my car, they're going to require x amount of boxes. x amount of fiberglass boxes is going to weigh far less than the same amount of MDF boxes. I'll assume you already understood that. The main argument here, from my standpoint at least, is a matter of quantity over quality. Some people are thinking quality of speakers, but I don't care about that. The quality I'm talking about is of the install. You can make the world's best and most expensive speakers sound like the world's worst speakers in a ****ty install. The opposite is true also. You can make cheap speakers sound great in a good install as long as they aren't damaged. The idea is to give them an enclosure they are designed for, with proper volume and tuning if applicable, and enough power without too much power. The power is the easy part. get one that can at least do what is recommended, and even more if within budget. An amp can always be turned down, but it can only be turned up so far. Naturally, you can understand that with 10 6x9's, you're going to need a significant amount of bass to back that up and cut through the mix. It doesn't necessarily have to be loud, it's just reinforcement that I am worried about. The main issue here is sound quality. The subs are there just to reinforce the low-end of the spectrum, not to go around mexi-thumping in my neighborhood with my hat on backwards letting everyone know how cool I am. I drive a LOT, and I want excellent sound reproduction, not competition volumes. I think you'd be surprised with how much bass you will end up getting with 10 6x9s. My factory 6x9s in my front doors sound like 1 or 2 10" subs in a sealed box now that I have them externally amped. That's just two paper-cone speakers that came with the car, but they designers actually did a decent job with the door enclosure. Since you do fiberglass work for a hobby and seem to be rather astute at it, I suggest you make an enclosure for your 4 current 6x9s, equidistant from listener or time-corrected accordingly, and test it out before dropping the cash of the other 6. You may be very pleased with the result. Try the dampening idea with it also. I chose my subwoofers for frequency response. The 10's that I selected respond down to 30hz. I want another set to respond around 20hz. Run them together and they should make a nice compliment to each other. Getting 2 10" subs and 2 15" subs may be detrimental also. The 10" subs will likely play just as low as the 15" subs. However, because of pure cone area and efficiency, the 15" subs will sound louder at those lower frequencies. Which means the 10's will be focusing on slightly higher bass frequencies, which the 15's will do fine at, and will basically be overrun by the 6x9's, which with the sheer number will get the midbass you're wanting, but not the low-end extension. You keep stating you don't want competition bass. Well.... stop adding equipment like you do then .And I was simply stating that you can make Pyle's sound good if you have them in a good configuration, depending on what you wanted to do with them. Bravo. Good answer. Brandonb |
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#38
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Brandonb wrote:
I could really care less about what brand of speakers are used or how much was paid, etc. But Austin does bring up a good point here for any system. The more speakers introduced, the more phase issues become probable and very likely, problematic. Just verifying positive and negative on each speaker may not be enough, in and of itself. All ten 6x9s (discounting all other point-sources) would need to be equidistant from the listener. If some are closer than others, it could create a problem. I'll have more in another post in this thread. Brandonb Austin Becker wrote: The argument that I am making with this kid is that just because you add more speakers does not mean the clarity will get better. In fact, this will lead to ALL KINDS of phase issues creating cancellation he's never even dreamed about. "justin time" noted that "The clarity of the frequency response will NOT get better, no. You are correct. BUT, it will help with sound reinforcement and allow the clarity that IS there to push thru the rest of the noise, like road noise and wind. You can't deny this. That is my main logic in all this." The fact is, phase issues will directly affect combined output. The most extreme case, of course, is putting two speakers side-by-side and wiring them in opposite phase, with the result that you'll hear very little output from the pair as the two signals cancel each other out. With a huge bank of 10 speakers spread across the width of the car, the phase problems will not only affect the quality of the sound, but could potentially greatly affect the output level of the array, thus completely negating the OP's main reaason for this little exercise, ie. "sound reinforcement". --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0607-2, 02/16/2006 Tested on: 2/19/2006 3:16:48 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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#39
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Ooh! Just think of this as having all the mundane pain in the ass work
of removing all that to put down dampening and deadening done for you already. Now that all that is out, drop the cash for the extra 6x9s into dampening and deadening and a really kick-ass fiberglass interior. Take my word for it, if you drop it all on a so-so system to get you by until you do the big part, you'll never get to the big part or delay and procrastinate for a lot longer than expected. Just jump in at the bottom and work your way up to a kick-ass install by the time you get the sound equipment in place. Brandonb justin time wrote: Thanks for the complement and the criticism. I think I may have left out one vital element that factors into all this, though. My car was once tore down and a lot of it was fiberglassed to make it lighter for racing. At the moment, there is no dash, no carpet, no back seat, door panels or window seals. Because of this there is a lot of road and wind noise and even the higher-end speakers will get drowned out quite a bit. Although I'm in the process of fixing all that, I would like the stereo to overpower these noises as it is now. That way it can only be that much better whenever I reinstall new interior and dampening materials. |
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#40
Posted to rec.audio.car
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Fiberglass speaker construction
Brandonb, thanks for including that. I read it many years ago and forgot
the details. Of course the parameters have to be carfuly controled, but I think it puts to rest the notion that tube amps "sound warm" and so on, and so forth (tube amps DO sound different than solid state amps when they begin to clip which is most likely what people are reffering to by "tube sound"). But you are right, a watt is a watt. MOSFET |
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