[sam]

Eeyore wrote:

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

But surely you understand the concept of design purpose?
What do you think?
I think you do, which makes it surprising to me that you think the 802 needs
PFL.

It was YOU who arbitrarily introduced the 802.

How about the Xenyx1222FX ? It has 6 mic inputs and no PFL
http://behringer.com/1222FX/index.cfm?lang=eng

Graham


The 1204 does though, I guess you just buy the feature set you need.

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

George was suggesting they have brightness that varies with signal level. Not my
experience. To be of any use a clip light has to 'fire' before actual clipping
of course.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling of minutiae. Those seriously interested in
understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I say,
"let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload but I
find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a movig
coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a short fall
time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.

Graham

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

and even if the clip meter lights due to someone turning way up on
stage , just bump it back a touch more
the lclip meter is not lighting at clipping
it starts to glow well before asny clipping is occouring

Absolutely NOT true of any mixer design I've ever seen and that's a
fair few.

On the old SM3000 it comes on 5 dB below clipping.

George was suggesting they have brightness that varies with signal
level. Not my experience. To be of any use a clip light has to 'fire'
before actual clipping of course.

I too read him like that the first time around, but if they are anything
like the LED's action on the SM3000 then short threshold events are
perceived as not turning them completely on, not because they aren't fully
on, but because there is no hold circuit. With 5 dB lead ... and with the
mixer being operated in semi-darkness, not really an issue.

The LED's on the MR8HD acts the same way, but they seem to first come on at
0 dB full scale, so for them to be fully perceived the clip has to have a
duration that corresponds to 3+ dB of clipping. It could have been a
dramatically better device if they hadn't wasted development resources on
trying to cram a full production studio into it.

Graham


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
wrote in message
...
So you don't understand the difference between
"metering" (as you originally
stated) and a simple clip "indicator" then.

No but they are metering

Thanks for proving my point, you don't know.

your point being what?
a clip light is a very rudimetairy meter

No, it's not a *meter* at all. Aren't you ashamed to
keep publishing your ignorance?
Ignorance is *not* always bliss you know.

it isa meter. a very basic meter
but still a meter

"Proof by constant assertion" is NOT actual proof.


arn't you ashamed to be so wrong in such a public forum

You're looking in the mirror again George.

Isn't it curious how two of the most self-insulting, volumnous and
illogical posters on the Usenet audio groups are named George? ;-)
Whereas THE worst is called Arny.

Phildo

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:
"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling over minutiae. Those seriously interested
in understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I
say, "let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload
but I find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

Of course, but that's the official BBC/EBU gadget. I don't like it.

You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a
movig coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a
short fall time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.

Graham

Because of the human affinity for angular motion, let the ladder be an arc.
I continue to prefer the VU meter [plus "approaching" and "near" peak LEDs
for those who still are learning to control levels. ;-)]

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Eeyore]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Roy W. Rising" wrote:

I've just read the last 24 hours' posts in this thread. I note that it
has, as often happens, devolved into a handful of folks with broad and
various experience haggling over minutiae. Those seriously interested
in understanding the topic were left in the dust sometime yesterday. I
say, "let's give it a rest"!

Oh ... let me add one useless comment. A PPM displays 90% of peaks of
duration 10ms or greater. That makes it useful for avoiding overload
but I find its ballistics unrelated to what I actually hear.

That's because of its long 'decay' time.

Of course, but that's the official BBC/EBU gadget. I don't like it.

I'm not a fan of the slow fallback time myself.


You can design a peak reading meter to detect those peaks *better* than a
movig coil PPM and still give a reasonable idea of dynamics by using a
short fall time. That's actually what most modern LED ladder meters do.


Because of the human affinity for angular motion, let the ladder be an arc.

Some people have tried this but it never caught on.


I continue to prefer the VU meter [plus "approaching" and "near" peak LEDs
for those who still are learning to control levels. ;-)]

That's an interesting alternative. You don't see it much since VUs are now so
expensive.

Several times I've mused over the idea of a LED ladder where the VU and peak
style indications are 'overlaid'. The 'VU' sction might be say green and the
peak (which will always indicate higher except for a sinewave) in say orange.
It's very do-able but would cost more than one style only of course.

Graham

[Mr.T]

"Mickey" wrote in message
...
But it's not hard to make a globe last forever if you don't care about
light
output or efficiency.

And if you don't make a misstep or have a lightning strike or power surge.
I see many more units fail for those reasons than any others.

Easy to make a globe withstand anything bar a direct lightening strike, but
as I said you trade off both light output and efficiency. Not something
worth doing just to make the globe last forever!

MrT.

[Paul Stamler]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

Several times I've mused over the idea of a LED ladder where the VU and
peak
style indications are 'overlaid'. The 'VU' sction might be say green and
the
peak (which will always indicate higher except for a sinewave) in say
orange.
It's very do-able but would cost more than one style only of course.

Keep this up and you'll have the Dorrough level meter.

Peace,
Paul

[Eeyore]

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Mickey" wrote

But it's not hard to make a globe last forever if you don't care about
light output or efficiency.

And if you don't make a misstep or have a lightning strike or power surge.
I see many more units fail for those reasons than any others.

Easy to make a globe withstand anything bar a direct lightening strike, but
as I said you trade off both light output and efficiency. Not something
worth doing just to make the globe last forever!

The word you're looking for is lightning btw (without an E).

Graham

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
I guess we can take away from this interchange that George does not know
that the DCX 2496 is a DSP-based controller.

Since George is claiming that anything with a DSP is necessarily a high
end box, he's obviously quite ignorant about well-known products like the
Behringer DSP 110. I think they DSP 110s are about $70. They fully meet
George's spec of being a "DSP-based controller".

Arny, you are talking crap as usual. Please stop and go back to looking for
FOH.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Phildo" wrote in message
...
But according to Arny 95% of mixing desks only have that
if any metering at all.

I can't imagine how you might define "95% of mixing
desks" for that to be remotely true.

Count all the cheapies.

Still doesn't add up to 95%. Got the balls to admit you made a mistake yet
Arnold or are you still a chicken**** coward?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
OK, if you expect a mixer with a single mic channel to
have PFL, good luck in finding one. :-)

I've definately seen musical performances that used only
one mic, and no other electronic instruments at all. Why
not use an 802 for such a gig?

And you need PFL for that why exactly?

You've completely reversed my position in the matter. Phildo is the big
worshipper of PFL metering, not me.

It is nothing to do with having it, knowing how to use it or anything else,
just your statement that 95% of mixers do not have it. Face it Arnold, you
are wrong and you are just trying to move the goalposts to draw attention
away from the fact you ****ed up yet again and don't have the balls to admit
it.

My position is that PFL metering is a good thing, but one can live
without it.

That's because you claim you can set channel gains better by using your ears
than by using the meters showing your complete lack of live sound
experience.

In at least some cases, religiously relying on metering to the exclusion
of evidence gathered by the ears can be suboptimal.

Basic mixing 101 Arnold. I don't think there is a person here who didn't
know that already yet you try and present it as if it is some great
revelation.

Phildo

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:27:11 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



Marc Amsterdam wrote:

"Ron(UK)" wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Phildo refers my comments, which was based on a
percentage of all mixers,
professional grade and not, including those
jillions of very small mixers
that one sees all over the place.

The only conflct is in Phildo's mind!


This argument is getting sillier by the day

This is not an argument...

Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line of
mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip lights.

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line of
mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.

Phildo

[Bob Howes]

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line
of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip
lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.

Phildo


It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is aimed mainly at
the home studio market, hence the USB audio interface for recording on a PC.
Clearly, some people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it was
designed for and explains a lot about the feature set Behringer included.

Bob

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line of
mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip lights.


geez Arny, Since those stereo channels have NO input trims, metering to set
something that is NOT even adjustable would seem a trifle overkill IMO.

MrT.

[Eeyore]

Bob Howes wrote:

"Phildo" wrote
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.

Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line
of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip
lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.

It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is aimed mainly at
the home studio market, hence the USB audio interface for recording on a PC.
Clearly, some people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it was
designed for and explains a lot about the feature set Behringer included.

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

Graham

[Mr.T]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple of balanced inputs
(and input trims), did IME.

I'm still think it's highly amusing that I commented on Yamaha making 16
balanced channel FOH mixers with no PFL metering, and others need to
complain about 2 or 4 balanced channel mixers designed mainly for home use.

But IME there is always something you want on any mixer, that the
manufacturer chooses to leave out unfortunately.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Bob Howes" wrote in
message
"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the
brand.

They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.


Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights,
as well.

Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there
Arnold.
This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's
largest-selling line of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf

Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking
trash. None of the stereo channels have clip lights.
Only the mono channels have clip lights.

So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all
the channels so they do in fact have some form of PFL
metering. Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed
that 95% of mixing desks did not have PFL metering. Now
admit you were wrong, apologise and move on like your
lord tells you that you should do. Phildo


It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is
aimed mainly at the home studio market, hence the USB
audio interface for recording on a PC.

In fact the USB interface is an optional, external feature for most if not
all of the Xenix models.

Clearly, some
people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it
was designed for and explains a lot about the feature set
Behringer included.

I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a general-purpose
mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable for live sound. I've
been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is not suitable
for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at this opinion after
he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue, and failed to coax
anything out of its main outputs. I guess he knows more about digital
consoles than Yamaha, who describe the 02R96 as being suitable for doing
live sound.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.

Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

It's most, but not by an overwhelming amount. The largest mixer with no PFL
has 8 mic inputs.

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.

Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

It's most, but not by an overwhelming amount. The largest mixer with no
PFL has 8 mic inputs.

So your figure of 95% of mixers not having PFL is looking more dubious by
the minute Arnold.

Care to admit now that you were wrong and apologise to all the good people
of AAPLS for all the trouble you've caused?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a general-purpose
mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable for live sound.

That statement alone speaks volumes about why you should not be posting to
aapls.

I've been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is not
suitable for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at this
opinion after he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue, and failed
to coax anything out of its main outputs.

The guy was right in some respects. While it can be used for live sound, it
is not an ideal desk for a lot of situations sue to its complexity. A
visiting engineer cannot be shown how to use the desk in 5 minutes at a
festival for example. Same goes for the PM1D and to some extent the PM5D.
MC7L is a much better example for live sound use as it is simple to use and
only needs a few minutes for an experienced engineer to find his way around
it. Since you try to pass yourself off as a local live sound eggspurt you
should have known this already but it just shows yet again you know nothing
and are merely pretending.

I guess he knows more about digital consoles than Yamaha, who describe the
02R96 as being suitable for doing live sound.

Yamaha state it is suitable and in some cases (such as for a production show
in a theatre where it will be used by the same engineer all the time) it is
a great desk but there are a lot of examples where a different choice of
desk aimed more at the live sound market would be a better idea.

Phildo

[Eeyore]

Phildo wrote:

Care to admit now that you were wrong and apologise to all the good people
of AAPLS for all the trouble you've caused?

How about you apologising for your very existence ?

Graham

[sam]

Eeyore wrote:

Bob Howes wrote:

"Phildo" wrote
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Indeed. Arny is CORRECT that many mixers don't have
PFL. Just check out the
Behringer offerings since Phildo's so keen on the brand.
They have overload lights which is a form of PFL
metering.
Actually, many Berhinger mixers lack overload lights, as well.
Still doesn't make up 95% of mixing desks out there Arnold.

This manual describes what is arguably Behringer's largest-selling line
of mixers.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/XENY..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf
Oh look , the dimwit knows how to look up a website.

This manual shows that as usual, Phildo is talking trash. None of the
stereo channels have clip lights. Only the mono channels have clip
lights.
So they do actually have clip lights, just not on all the channels so they
do in fact have some form of PFL metering.

Skirt round the issue all you like Arnold, you claimed that 95% of mixing
desks did not have PFL metering. Now admit you were wrong, apologise and
move on like your lord tells you that you should do.
It's worth pointing out that the Behringer Xenyx range is aimed mainly at
the home studio market, hence the USB audio interface for recording on a PC.
Clearly, some people are using the mixers live, but that's not what it was
designed for and explains a lot about the feature set Behringer included.

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

Graham

I've always found that "USB audio interface" feature of the Xenyx range
a bit of a giggle.
They just chuck an external RCA to USB converter in the box

[Robert Orban]

In article ,
says...

we listen to each others recordings at monthly meets. My contribution that
month was a sample of intentionally clipped audio with differing amount of
clipping. The material was classical choir. The first 2 dB of clipping was
inaudible to all, I just made the demonstration to get people to understand
that it is possible to worry too much about technical perfection, so I
didn't make any notes, but I think it was around some 4 dB of clipping that
it was perceived as audibly deteriorated. What matters is not the amount of
clipping, but rather the duration. A couple of milliseconds tends to be
inaudible, this based on information provided at some AES event here in
Copenhagen.

It's *very* program-dependent. You can't hard-clip classical piano at all
without hearing clicks. Indeed, the original BBC delay line limiter was
inspired by the observation that even a fast attack time limiter would cause
audible clicks on piano. The delay line limiter allowed them to decrease the
slope of the limiter attack to the point where the modulation distortion was
psychoacoustically masked.

Bob Orban

[Robert Orban]

In article , says...


Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote:
How would you design a unit - say the crossover under discussion - to
self-destruct after 3 years? Do you really believe Behringer has
designed it this way? What model did it replace 3 years (or less)
ago?

You use the cheapest possible unsealed pots. You use TRS jacks instead
of XLRs or screw terminals, and you make sure to use the cheapest short
frame ones you can get. You use cheap unsealed switches on everything.
You use power transformers that are just barely rated for the current
they pass. You omit the schematic inside the box and in the owner's
manual, and remove the test points from the board. You use a flimsy
stamped box instead of something heavy and die-cast.

ALL consumer gear is designed this way. Look inside the box, then look
inside a Marchand or Manley. The difference in ruggedness and reliability
is phenomenal.

I don't know if Behringer introduced this model to replace something on
their line, or if it got added as their line expanded. But in a couple
years something else will be replacing it.

Though we're arguing over the wrong unit, surely? With a street price
around 150 USD, of course any but the simplest repair will be
uneconomic.

Precisely. All the consumer gear is built this way. It's not Behringer's
fault and they're not even a particularly bad offender. For a really
shocking example, look at the difference in service and support as well as
the difference in construction between Sony consumer and broadcast gear.

What is worrisome is the possibility that the growth of tin whiskers from
lead-free solder will destroy all RoHS-compliant electronics in just a few
years of powered-on operation, regardless of their initial build quality.
In this brave new world, *all* electronics may end up being throw-away.

I am typing this on a RoHS-compliant Dell computer that is now about 2
years old. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts :-(

Bob Orban

[BOB Urz]

Robert Orban wrote:

In article , says...


Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote:
How would you design a unit - say the crossover under discussion - to
self-destruct after 3 years? Do you really believe Behringer has
designed it this way? What model did it replace 3 years (or less)
ago?

You use the cheapest possible unsealed pots. You use TRS jacks instead
of XLRs or screw terminals, and you make sure to use the cheapest short
frame ones you can get. You use cheap unsealed switches on everything.
You use power transformers that are just barely rated for the current
they pass. You omit the schematic inside the box and in the owner's
manual, and remove the test points from the board. You use a flimsy
stamped box instead of something heavy and die-cast.

ALL consumer gear is designed this way. Look inside the box, then look
inside a Marchand or Manley. The difference in ruggedness and reliability
is phenomenal.

I don't know if Behringer introduced this model to replace something on
their line, or if it got added as their line expanded. But in a couple
years something else will be replacing it.

Though we're arguing over the wrong unit, surely? With a street price
around 150 USD, of course any but the simplest repair will be
uneconomic.

Precisely. All the consumer gear is built this way. It's not Behringer's
fault and they're not even a particularly bad offender. For a really
shocking example, look at the difference in service and support as well as
the difference in construction between Sony consumer and broadcast gear.

What is worrisome is the possibility that the growth of tin whiskers from
lead-free solder will destroy all RoHS-compliant electronics in just a few
years of powered-on operation, regardless of their initial build quality.
In this brave new world, *all* electronics may end up being throw-away.

I am typing this on a RoHS-compliant Dell computer that is now about 2
years old. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts :-(

Bob Orban

What i find even more bizarre is failures in computer rooms caused by tin
whiskers falling off of raised computer floors panels and grids.
Some disturbance stirs them up, and they get in the air and the game is on. Who
knew?

Bob


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[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Robert Orban wrote:

In article ,
says...

we listen to each others recordings at monthly meets. My
contribution that month was a sample of intentionally clipped audio
with differing amount of clipping. The material was classical choir.
The first 2 dB of clipping was inaudible to all, I just made the
demonstration to get people to understand that it is possible to
worry too much about technical perfection, so I didn't make any
notes, but I think it was around some 4 dB of clipping that it was
perceived as audibly deteriorated. What matters is not the amount of
clipping, but rather the duration. A couple of milliseconds tends to
be inaudible, this based on information provided at some AES event
here in Copenhagen.

It's *very* program-dependent.

Agreed. Choir in a reverberant room is not what I would consider "forgiving"
in this regards.

You can't hard-clip classical piano at
all without hearing clicks. Indeed, the original BBC delay line
limiter was inspired by the observation that even a fast attack time
limiter would cause audible clicks on piano.

How many milliseconds is "at all"?

The delay line limiter
allowed them to decrease the slope of the limiter attack to the point
where the modulation distortion was psychoacoustically masked.

Thank you!

Bob Orban


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.

Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL


And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.

Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had
PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

That's your qualification, not mine. Also, you hand-picked just a certain
line of mixers.

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a general-purpose
mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable for live sound.

That statement alone speaks volumes about why you should not be posting to
aapls.

No Phildo, the absence of such a thing shows how arbitrarily claims like
this are tossed around. This post notwitstanding, you have given no logical
reason why an 02R96 shouldn't be used for live sound, given that it has
enough channels, etc.

I've been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is not
suitable for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at this
opinion after he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue, and
failed to coax anything out of its main outputs.

The guy was right in some respects. While it can be used for live sound,
it is not an ideal desk for a lot of situations sue to its complexity.

What complexity? Does a simple thing like layers blow your mind that much?
Does input and output patching confuse your little feeble brain? Are
parametric equalizers too much for you to learn how to use, except with
great difficulty?

Maybe complex to you, Phildo. To me the 02R96 is hardly complex at all. I
have taught 4 people how to use it. Two had never used a mixing console
before, and mixed a show using 20 or so channels only an hour or two after
they first saw it. The other one was experienced and virtually taught
himself. There's a girl, a junior in high school that just learned how to
use our 02R96 to mix a program with video and recorded music as well as a
mic, in less than 1.5 hours from the first time she ever looked seriously at
any mixer in her whole life.

A visiting engineer cannot be shown how to use the desk in 5 minutes at
a festival for example.

Maybe that's true of the grade of sound tech that you hang with Phildo, as
well as your sweet self.

An experienced engineer should not need to be shown anything about an 02R96
in order to use it to almost immediately mix a show if they even have just
heard how digital mixers work from a friend. Faders are faders, mutes are
mutes, etc.

Same goes for the PM1D and to some extent the PM5D.

Those are just 02R96s for people who have to see every fader at the same
time in order to keep things straight in their head. ;-)

MC7L is a much better example for live sound use as it is simple to use
and only needs a few minutes for an experienced engineer to find his way
around it.

Been there, done that. See my comment above. My learning curve on first
sight of a M7CL was about was about 30 seconds.

Then there's the LS9 - a little harder to use because it lacks the
touch-sensitive faders. Another 30 second learning curve.

Yamaha state it is suitable...

That's exactly right Phildo - Yamaha says that the 02R96 is recommended by
them for live sound, and you can't give a reason why not, except that maybe
for some odd reason it scares you and the people you hang with.

The 02R96 worked out great for us because it has the channels we need (32)
with a reasonable allowance for expansion, is easy to use, and is narrower
than most if not all of the Yamaha digital consoles with a comparable number
of channels. The fact that we picked one up with a new equipment warranty
for less than $8K was very sweet.

[Ron(UK)]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...
Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.
In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.
Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had
PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

That's your qualification, not mine. Also, you hand-picked just a certain
line of mixers.



Now why the hell have you raked up this old thread? I think you're just
trying to get yet another flamefest going!

Why don't you grow up?


Ron(UK)

[Arny Krueger]

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...
Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.
In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.
Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had
PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

That's your qualification, not mine. Also, you hand-picked just a
certain line of mixers.

Now why the hell have you raked up this old thread?

I've been on vacation. Just catching up with posts from just before I left
town.

I think you're just trying to get yet another flamefest going!

As if comments like this don't serve that crappy purpose well!

Why don't you grow up?

Ditto.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

That's your qualification, not mine.

Yes, and a fair one IMO.

Also, you hand-picked just a certain line of mixers.

That wasn't me.

MrT.

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
"Eeyore" wrote
in message ...

Most of the 'Eurorack' range also don't have PFL.

In fact many/most of the models with more than a couple
of balanced inputs (and input trims), did IME.

Here's the box score for the whole Eurorack product line:

MX602 - no PFL 2 mic inputs
MX400 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is line mixer
MX2004A - PFL
MX 882 - no PFL no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer. I wish mine had
PFL
as that would help with cuing media
MX2682 - PFL
RX1602 - - no PFL - no mic inputs, as it is a line mixer
MX3242 - PFL
MX9000 - PFL
SL2442FX - PFL
SL3242FX - PFL
RX1202 FX - no PFL, 8 mic inputs

5 with no PFL
7 with PFL

And as I said, far and away most of the models with more than a few mic
inputs.

That's your qualification, not mine. Also, you hand-picked just a certain
line of mixers.

One that you yourself quoted to try to back up your point.

Care to admit you were wrong yet Arnold or are you happy to carry on proving
yourself to be a liar in front of everyone for a little while longer?

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a
general-purpose mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable for
live sound.

That statement alone speaks volumes about why you should not be posting
to aapls.

No Phildo, the absence of such a thing shows how arbitrarily claims like
this are tossed around.

No Arnold, I was right the first time. You don't know enough to be trying to
dispense advice on live sound.

This post notwitstanding, you have given no logical reason why an 02R96
shouldn't be used for live sound, given that it has enough channels, etc.

I never said it shouldn't be used, just that it was not ideal. I've even
given you the reasons Arnold. Maybe I should try again using words of one
syllable?

I've been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is
not suitable for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at
this opinion after he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue, and
failed to coax anything out of its main outputs.

The guy was right in some respects. While it can be used for live sound,
it is not an ideal desk for a lot of situations sue to its complexity.

What complexity? Does a simple thing like layers blow your mind that much?

Not mine but a visiting engineer only used to analogue boards would have
real trouble using a board.

Does input and output patching confuse your little feeble brain?

Arnold, I use a PM1D, a waaaaaaay more complicated desk than your puny
little offering, one you can only dream about using but which is reserved
for us real sound engineers.

Are parametric equalizers too much for you to learn how to use, except
with great difficulty?

I use them every single day Arnold. I also use meters to set the channel
gains, something you still haven't learned to do.

Maybe complex to you, Phildo. To me the 02R96 is hardly complex at all.

You already admitted yourself you don't have a clue how to use it. Setting
channel gains by using your ears instead of the meters is a recipe for
trouble on a digital board.

I have taught 4 people how to use it.

How can you do that when you don't know how to use it yourself? Talk about
the blind leading the blind.

Two had never used a mixing console before, and mixed a show using 20 or
so channels only an hour or two after they first saw it.

Pushing faders up and down is the easy bit. Ask him to set up the board from
scratch and it would be a different story.

The other one was experienced and virtually taught himself. There's a
girl, a junior in high school that just learned how to use our 02R96 to
mix a program with video and recorded music as well as a mic, in less than
1.5 hours from the first time she ever looked seriously at any mixer in
her whole life.

So? It took her 1.5 hours to learn to use the board better than you with all
your claimed (lied) years of pro live sound experience.

A visiting engineer cannot be shown how to use the desk in 5 minutes at
a festival for example.

Maybe that's true of the grade of sound tech that you hang with Phildo, as
well as your sweet self.

No Arnold, it is true of engineers all over the world, real engineers, not
just wannabes like yourself.

An experienced engineer should not need to be shown anything about an
02R96 in order to use it to almost immediately mix a show if they even
have just heard how digital mixers work from a friend. Faders are faders,
mutes are mutes, etc.

The O2R96 is not an ideal live desk. If you knew anything about live sound
then you would know that Arnold. All you are doing is showing everybody here
how little you know. Keep it up as there may be some tribes in the remotest
parts of the world who still don't know what a dumbass the Krueger is.

Same goes for the PM1D and to some extent the PM5D.

Those are just 02R96s for people who have to see every fader at the same
time in order to keep things straight in their head. ;-)

You wish Arnold. The PM1D is a board you have wet dreams about, one reserved
for the real engineers you are so desperately jealous of and want to be
like. All your comments show are that you know nothing about how the board
operates.

MC7L is a much better example for live sound use as it is simple to use
and only needs a few minutes for an experienced engineer to find his way
around it.

Been there, done that. See my comment above. My learning curve on first
sight of a M7CL was about was about 30 seconds.

Me too but if you understand that then you should also understandd why the
96 is not a very good choice for a live board (hence the reason they are
very rarely found at live gigs).

Then there's the LS9 - a little harder to use because it lacks the
touch-sensitive faders. Another 30 second learning curve.

Bull****. The LS9 is even easier to use then the MC7L.

Yamaha state it is suitable...

That's exactly right Phildo - Yamaha says that the 02R96 is recommended by
them for live sound, and you can't give a reason why not, except that
maybe for some odd reason it scares you and the people you hang with.

It is suitable. It is not ideal and there are much better choices out there.
You just don't want the people in your church to know you wasted their money
on a flash toy that you don't know how to use.

The 02R96 worked out great for us because it has the channels we need (32)
with a reasonable allowance for expansion, is easy to use, and is narrower
than most if not all of the Yamaha digital consoles with a comparable
number of channels. The fact that we picked one up with a new equipment
warranty for less than $8K was very sweet.

If it works for you then all well and good (although they still need someone
who knows how to use it). There is a reason that board is very rarely used
for live gigs and the fact you cannot see what that reason is just shows
everybody here why you shouldn't be posting about live sound.

Phildo

Maybe complex to you, Phildo. To me the 02R96 is hardly complex at all.

for arnii fiding Foh is so complex he need 3 or 4 days of argueing about it
location on this board before he tucked tail and ran for cover.
things like meters are too complex for arnii, he doesnt use them
wasteing money on a fancy desk while not repositioning a horn that was
causeing feedback is how arnii serves his church

there is one good thing I can say about arnii
he's not debony, or eyesore
george

[Arny Krueger]

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a
general-purpose mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable
for live sound.

That statement alone speaks volumes about why you should not be posting
to aapls.

No Phildo, the absence of such a thing shows how arbitrarily claims like
this are tossed around.

No Arnold, I was right the first time.

Phildo, everybody knows that you are never wrong, even when you are totally
out-to-lunch. Remember your imagninary phenolic circuit boards in QSC amps?
LOL!

You don't know enough to be trying to dispense advice on live sound.

Actually Phildo, I do pretty well giving advice about live sound. I've
already affected a few $100,000's of purchase decisions around town.

This post notwitstanding, you have given no logical reason why an 02R96
shouldn't be used for live sound, given that it has enough channels, etc.

I never said it shouldn't be used, just that it was not ideal. I've even
given you the reasons Arnold.

Phildo, to give a reason you would have to be able to reason. Your posts
about my use of the 02R96 are full of bile and hate. Zero wisdom. Zero
relevant facts. Everybody knows you hate me and will tell just about any lie
that flys into your little pea brain in a childish attempt to hurt me.

Maybe I should try again using words of one syllable?

Maybe Phildo, you should teach your mentor George how to properly spell
words of one syllable.

I've been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is
not suitable for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at
this opinion after he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue,
and failed to coax anything out of its main outputs.

The guy was right in some respects. While it can be used for live sound,
it is not an ideal desk for a lot of situations sue to its complexity.

What complexity? Does a simple thing like layers blow your mind that
much?

Not mine but a visiting engineer only used to analogue boards would have
real trouble using a board.

Perhaps that might be true if it was you Phildo who was setting the board up
for him and introducing it to him. Like I said, I can take total newbies
through the Yammie digitals boards I've worked through in very little time.

Does input and output patching confuse your little feeble brain?

Arnold, I use a PM1D, a waaaaaaay more complicated desk than your puny
little offering, one you can only dream about using but which is reserved
for us real sound engineers.

In fact Phildo, PM1Ds are not reserved for real sound engineers. Anbody with
the bread can rent, buy or trial one from a dealer. They are used in
churches by non-professionals. Sorry to break your little bubble, Phildo!

Are parametric equalizers too much for you to learn how to use, except
with great difficulty?

I use them every single day Arnold. I also use meters to set the channel
gains, something you still haven't learned to do.

Phildo its not a matter of me not knowing how, its about getting each
particular job done the best way. This has been discussed and other pros
around here agree that setting channel gains by ear can work well.

Maybe complex to you, Phildo. To me the 02R96 is hardly complex at all.

You already admitted yourself you don't have a clue how to use it.

No such thing ever happened, Phildo.

Setting channel gains by using your ears instead of the meters is a
recipe for trouble on a digital board.

Phildo, this just shows your parania about digital boards. What makes a
digital board so different that setting levels by ear can never work well?

I have taught 4 people how to use it.

How can you do that when you don't know how to use it yourself?

Simple Phildo - I do know how to use it, your lies and hateful spew
notwitstanding.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.

You got a problem with blind people, Phildo?

Two had never used a mixing console before, and mixed a show using 20 or
so channels only an hour or two after they first saw it.

Pushing faders up and down is the easy bit. Ask him to set up the board
from scratch and it would be a different story.

Phildo, since your work environment is composed of professinally installed
systems, how would you even know what it is like to set up a new board you
get from scratch? Admit it - you probably never set up your new digital
board(s) there on ship from scratch.

The other one was experienced and virtually taught himself. There's a
girl, a junior in high school that just learned how to use our 02R96 to
mix a program with video and recorded music as well as a mic, in less
than 1.5 hours from the first time she ever looked seriously at any mixer
in her whole life.

So? It took her 1.5 hours to learn to use the board better than you with
all your claimed (lied) years of pro live sound experience.

You're simply talking trash, Phildo.

You know Phildo it is really charming shooting the crap with you, but I've
got some real work to do. Have a nice day! ;-)

[Phildo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Phildo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I'm still looking for a lucid explanation of what makes a
general-purpose mixing console suitable for recording and unsuitable
for live sound.

That statement alone speaks volumes about why you should not be posting
to aapls.

No Phildo, the absence of such a thing shows how arbitrarily claims like
this are tossed around.

No Arnold, I was right the first time.

Phildo, everybody knows that you are never wrong, even when you are
totally out-to-lunch. Remember your imagninary phenolic circuit boards in
QSC amps? LOL!

YOU are the one who can never admit your mistakes Arnold. Many times you
have promised to provide google URLs of you admitting your errors but never
once have you kept your word. Is it any wonder that not one single person on
here takes you seriously?

Do you STILL not get why your precious toy is not an ideal desk for live
sound or do you need it spelled out to you in words of one syllable?

Do I have to repost this yet again? As usual you got caught lying (this time
about you getting banned from PSW when everybody on AAPLS saw it happen) and
then went very quiet when you realise you had been busted.


"Phildo" wrote in message news:...

"Phildo" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Neither can post there under their true names, it seems.
Certainly
Phildo can't.

Yes I can Arny. I am not BANNED like you are.

Prove it or admit you've been caught lying again, Phildo.
There we go. Look at the "Engineers on drugs" thread.

Wow, now I wonder why it took me a month to get you do the right
thing Phildo?

Still can't admit you were wrong or that you lied.

Where did I deny that you finally posted on Prosoundweb, after
obfuscating about it for a month or more?

No Arny, you said I was banned from PSW. You lied. You got busted. Now
be a man, admit you lied and move on.

Not that we expected anything more from you Arny. Face it though,
you are banned and I am not.

It is true that a few weeks ago, I quit Prosoundweb, vowing to never
return. Since I have vowed never to return, I don't know if I am
banned or not.

You just keep telling yourself that Arny. Everybody on here saw you
get BANNED. You just keep on lying and lying and showing yourself up
in front of everyone.

Way to go Arny.

So what?

It proves you lied. Admit it. Are you so mentally ill that, even when
faced with proof, you still claim you didn't lie?

How can me posting there be "doing the right thing" Arny?

Well Phildo to refresh your substance-abuse-addled mind, I've been
challenging you post there for over a month and you allways begged
off.

No Arny, you've been trying to get me to reveal the other name I claim
to post under. You must have thought me really dumb to fall for some
of the crazy things you tried.

I merely posted there under my real name to prove you wrong and allow
you to humiliate yourself once again.

Where's the humilation in getting you to stop obfuscating and finally
prove that you could?

It had nothing to do with that Arny. It had everything to do with
proving you to be a liar which I did very successfully.

Face it Arny, you lied about me being banned from there and now you
are BUSTED big time.

Yawn. It must really be slow on that boat.

I'm not on a boat. Not for another couple of days yet. I fly out in 10
hours time so will be offline for a couple of days while I laze on a
beach in Barbados.

Even now you don't have the guts to admit you lied to everyone to
try and save yourself from looking stupid after you got BANNED. Face
it Arny, I just proved you lied.

Wrong Phildo - all I said is that you weren't posting there under you
real name, which is a matter of fact.

No Arny, you said both George and myself were banned from there and
couldn't post. I proved that you lied out your arse on both counts.
You have been PROVEN to be a liar Arny in front of everyone, not that
one single person on here had any doubts anyway.

Phildo, searching for posts on Prosoundweb mentioning you was
interesting. Here are some relevant quotes:

A google search for Arny Krueger gives results a thousand times
worse.

Oh, so now what happens to me justifies you in these accounts of your
past bad behavior?

What happens to you? Nothing happens to you Arny. You bring everything
on yourself. A usenet search for Arny Kruger shows up years of mental
illness and disgraceful behaviour on your part, far worse than
anything you can dig up on me.

I think these posts pretty well tell the story, Phildo.

I wonder how long you'll last this time?

What do you mean "this time" Arny? I was never banned unlike you who
got BANNED as soon as you started posting there.

Actually Phildo, I posted on ProsoundWeb for about a week.

So? You still haven't said what you mean by "this time"? Are you still
implying that I was banned at any point from PSW?

Come on Arny, tell us what you mean? Are you lying yet again? Seems
that even when you get caught you don't have the balls to admit it.

Actually Phildo, you said I'd get banned almost instantly and that
didn't happen.

After just a few posts you got banned exactly as everyone expected.
Same thing would happen here if it were moderated.

If I post there I respect the forum and stick to the rules. You seem
somehow incapable of doing that so got your sorry ass BANNED.

Am I really banned? I'm never going to try to post there again, so I
suppose I'll never know. ;-)

You know full well you are BANNED Arny. Everybody here knows it. You
are a laughing stock here AND on PSW. Church engineers all over the
world are laughing at you Arny. Your name is mud in the church sound
world.

Way to go Arny.

Phildo

It's all gone very quiet from you Arny. What's wrong? Being exposed as
a lying scumbag too much for you? Come on, be a man and admit you lied.

Phildo
Still waiting Arny. What's the matter? Is it too much for you to bear
having to admit you lied in front of everyone? Are you not a decent
enough person to admit your errors?

Phildo
Still waiting Arny. Above is proof that you lied and it will be
constantly reposted so everyone can see what a bull**** artist until such
time as you admit you lied.

Still waiting Arny. How many times am I going to have to post this proof
that you lied before you will actually be man enough to admit it yourself?

Phildo


You don't know enough to be trying to dispense advice on live sound.

Actually Phildo, I do pretty well giving advice about live sound. I've
already affected a few $100,000's of purchase decisions around town.

I feel pity for the poor people that spent money based on your advice. That
you got them to spend the money does not mean you know what you are talking
about, just that you conned them in to believing you did. Now that was
hardly an honest thing to do Arnold, especially to your fellow church-goers.
You show your complete ignorance in live sound with every single post you
make on here. How many times have you been pulled up making hysterically
funny errors such as trying to tell everyone here that FOH was backstage?

This post notwitstanding, you have given no logical reason why an 02R96
shouldn't be used for live sound, given that it has enough channels, etc.

I never said it shouldn't be used, just that it was not ideal. I've even
given you the reasons Arnold.

Phildo, to give a reason you would have to be able to reason.

Thanks for admitting you lack the live sound knowledge to be able to
understand why the 02R96 is not ideal for live sound.

Your posts about my use of the 02R96 are full of bile and hate.

And facts

Zero wisdom.

Wrong. Just because you don't like what I say doesn't make it wrong.

Zero relevant facts.

Wrong. Just because you don't like what I say doesn't make it wrong.

Everybody knows you hate me and will tell just about any lie that flys into
your little pea brain in a childish attempt to hurt me.

Yes Arnold, I do hate you with a passion but I never need to lie. You
humiliate yourself all the time and I just help you along. When it comes to
lying you are the one who likes to make stuff up. How do you think your god
looks on your behaviour Arnold? Do you not think he would be displeased with
your incessant lying just to feed your ego?

Maybe I should try again using words of one syllable?

Maybe Phildo, you should teach your mentor George how to properly spell
words of one syllable.

Nah, George knows his stuff when it comes to live sound, you don't. You
should check your spelling before going off on others as well. My
spellchecker picked up over 20 errors from you on your last post. People who
live in glass houses and all that........

I've been told by a local live sound eggspurt that Yamaha's 02R96 is
not suitable for live sound, I eventually found out that he arrived at
this opinion after he attempted to demonstrate one at a local venue,
and failed to coax anything out of its main outputs.

The guy was right in some respects. While it can be used for live
sound, it is not an ideal desk for a lot of situations sue to its
complexity.

What complexity? Does a simple thing like layers blow your mind that
much?

Not mine but a visiting engineer only used to analogue boards would have
real trouble using a board.

Perhaps that might be true if it was you Phildo who was setting the board
up for him and introducing it to him. Like I said, I can take total
newbies through the Yammie digitals boards I've worked through in very
little time.

Bull****.

Does input and output patching confuse your little feeble brain?

Arnold, I use a PM1D, a waaaaaaay more complicated desk than your puny
little offering, one you can only dream about using but which is reserved
for us real sound engineers.

In fact Phildo, PM1Ds are not reserved for real sound engineers. Anbody
with the bread can rent, buy or trial one from a dealer. They are used in
churches by non-professionals. Sorry to break your little bubble, Phildo!

As I said, a desk you can only have wet dreams about Arnold. I do a job you
had to beg your church to let you do on a volunteer basis. I do what you can
only dream about and it really burns you up, so much so that you have to
pretend you are a sound engineer.

Are parametric equalizers too much for you to learn how to use, except
with great difficulty?

I use them every single day Arnold. I also use meters to set the channel
gains, something you still haven't learned to do.

Phildo its not a matter of me not knowing how,

Yes it is Arnold, it is exactly that.

its about getting each particular job done the best way. This has been
discussed and other pros around here agree that setting channel gains by
ear can work well.

No Arnold. Not one single person said it is a good idea. Everybody told you
it is a bad idea but you are too arrogant to ever accept you may be wrong
about anything.

Maybe complex to you, Phildo. To me the 02R96 is hardly complex at all.

You already admitted yourself you don't have a clue how to use it.

No such thing ever happened, Phildo.

You set your channel gains by ear. Nuff said?

Setting channel gains by using your ears instead of the meters is a
recipe for trouble on a digital board.

Phildo, this just shows your parania about digital boards.

I have no paranoia about digital boards. That is all in your mind Arnold.
Yet again you have completely made it up. I challenge you to provide google
URLs from any time in the last 3 years where I have shown any sort of
paranoia over digital desks. Of course you will stall for time then claim
you posted them although mysteriously nobody will ever be able to find your
post and as usual you will completely fail to come up with the goods. You
are all too predictable Arnold.

What makes a digital board so different that setting levels by ear can
never work well?

The sheer fact you have to ask that question only goes to show how clueless
you are. Do I really have to tell you? Are you really that stupid?

I have taught 4 people how to use it.

How can you do that when you don't know how to use it yourself?

Simple Phildo - I do know how to use it,

You set channel gains by ear instead of with the meters, you ring your
monitors out with a CD, you record feedback to try and fix it in time for
the next show etc etc etc. You obviously do not know how to use it or you
wouldn't do such stupid things.

your lies and hateful spew notwitstanding.

Dress it up how you want Arnold, the fact remains you do not have a clue and
show it with every single post you make.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.

You got a problem with blind people, Phildo?

No, just ****wits like you.

Two had never used a mixing console before, and mixed a show using 20 or
so channels only an hour or two after they first saw it.

Pushing faders up and down is the easy bit. Ask him to set up the board
from scratch and it would be a different story.

Phildo, since your work environment is composed of professinally installed
systems, how would you even know what it is like to set up a new board you
get from scratch?

You missed out one important word there Arnold. That word is "current" and
goes before "work enviroment". As you have been told many times, I have done
things you only ever dream about and that includes installing new systems. I
do not only work on professionally installed systems but then you already
knew that (remember your system was supposedly "professionally installed"
yet you still **** it up). The ML5000s on this ship I installed from scratch

Admit it - you probably never set up your new digital board(s) there on
ship from scratch.

Not on this ship, no. I came in to run a system that was already there so
have not had the opportunity to do so as yet. What does that prove? I have
done so on land though. I may well have to set up a new PM5D in the very
near future on a ship.

The other one was experienced and virtually taught himself. There's a
girl, a junior in high school that just learned how to use our 02R96 to
mix a program with video and recorded music as well as a mic, in less
than 1.5 hours from the first time she ever looked seriously at any
mixer in her whole life.

So? It took her 1.5 hours to learn to use the board better than you with
all your claimed (lied) years of pro live sound experience.

You're simply talking trash, Phildo.

Deny the claims all you want Arnold but you make it very clear you do not
have a clue.

You know Phildo it is really charming shooting the crap with you, but I've
got some real work to do. Have a nice day! ;-)

Translation from Arnyspeak - "I am getting my butt kicked here and being
made to look very stupid so I should bow out quickly and hope nobody notices
how I've made a fool of myself all over again".

Way to go Arnold.

Now then, do you still claim 95% of mixing desks do not have PFL?

Phildo