I´m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. My
problem is to prevent distortion of my A/D interface because of the
wide dynamic range of the horns. My preamp is a Allen & Heath GL2
analogue mixer, with Presonus ACP-88 compressors in each channel
insert. The mixer group output is sent to the A/D interface which is a
Creamware A16 Ultra, 44.1 kHz 24 bits. I don´t want the sound to be
influenced by a compressor, so the ACP-88 is only used as a limiter
with ratio 20:1, attack and release 1ms. But I can´t prevent the
horns to overload the AD interface sometimes.
What can I do to get a good leveled recording ?
Can I set the ACP-88 to the lowest attack and release with the highest
ratio to cut the peaks ?
Should I use a compressor for reducing dynamics first and a limiter in
line to cut the remainig peaks ?
Thank you very much for your recommendations.

Ewald

Thank you very much for your recommendations.

Back 'em off the mic and hand gain the result.
Phil Brown

What mic(s) are you using? at what distance?

Regards,

Evangelos

%
Evangelos Himonides
IoE, University of London
tel: +44 2076126599
fax: +44 2076126741
"Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music in them..."



Oliver Wendell Holmes


%

"Ewald Streitenberger" wrote in message
om...
I´m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. My
problem is to prevent distortion of my A/D interface because of the
wide dynamic range of the horns. My preamp is a Allen & Heath GL2
analogue mixer, with Presonus ACP-88 compressors in each channel
insert. The mixer group output is sent to the A/D interface which is a
Creamware A16 Ultra, 44.1 kHz 24 bits. I don´t want the sound to be
influenced by a compressor, so the ACP-88 is only used as a limiter
with ratio 20:1, attack and release 1ms. But I can´t prevent the
horns to overload the AD interface sometimes.
What can I do to get a good leveled recording ?
Can I set the ACP-88 to the lowest attack and release with the highest
ratio to cut the peaks ?
Should I use a compressor for reducing dynamics first and a limiter in
line to cut the remainig peaks ?
Thank you very much for your recommendations.

Ewald

Hi,

I think the way you are set up is fine, just reduce the level of each
channel a little so even the most extreme horn blast wont overload the A/D.
( or just back them off the mics like Phil said, but there will still be a
chance that someone will lunge forward an overload a channel before you can
react.)

Don't be afraid to record at lower overall levels. Set levels so that the
loudest blast possible only registers -5 dB or so and then you can quit
worrying about clipping/overs and concentrate on other things.

Best of luck!

--
John L Rice

"Ewald Streitenberger" wrote in
message om
I´m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. My
problem is to prevent distortion of my A/D interface because of the
wide dynamic range of the horns. My preamp is a Allen & Heath GL2
analogue mixer, with Presonus ACP-88 compressors in each channel
insert. The mixer group output is sent to the A/D interface which is
a
Creamware A16 Ultra, 44.1 kHz 24 bits. I don´t want the sound to be
influenced by a compressor, so the ACP-88 is only used as a limiter
with ratio 20:1, attack and release 1ms. But I can´t prevent the
horns to overload the AD interface sometimes.


No gain control that you can turn down, anyplace?

I see about six of them in the GL2 signal path of one mic on this
pictu

http://www.soundart.com/gl2.html


http://www.presonus.com/pdf/acp88_manual.pdf shows that there is one
more gain control per channel.


What can I do to get a good leveled recording ?

Find appropriate gain control, rotate counterclockwise in increments
for desired results.

In article writes:

I´m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. My
problem is to prevent distortion of my A/D interface because of the
wide dynamic range of the horns.

This is not difficult. Do a run-through, set your mic preamps so that
the level never gets higher than -10 dBFS, and start recording.
Preserve the wide dynamic range of the horns. That's part of being a
horn.

If you feel that you need to compress in order to get a good mix, do
it when you're mixing.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On 4/2/05 2:47 PM, in article
, "Ewald Streitenberger"
wrote:

I´m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. ...
What can I do to get a good leveled recording ?

Have them run thru the material a few times in practice (RECORD THESE EVEN
IF YOU DON¹T INTEND TO USE THEM... Tell them you;re only getting levels...
As you are)
Whatever you end up with, attenuate the input preamps another 6dB or so for
safety and adrenaline on the real takes.

Can I set the ACP-88 to the lowest attack and release with the highest
ratio to cut the peaks ?

If you do this right, you should never have to be hitting the limiter at
all.


Should I use a compressor for reducing dynamics first and a limiter in
line to cut the remainig peaks ?

I'm confused.. You;r erunning 24 bits, what the heck's your worry for
headroom?

I use Electovoice RE20, Schoeps CMC5 and Neumann KM184 mics about 5
inches close to tbe instrument´s bell, to get a better signal
separation, because the recording rooms are small.

Ewald

"Evangelos Himonides" wrote in message roups.com...
What mic(s) are you using? at what distance?

Regards,

Evangelos

%
Evangelos Himonides
IoE, University of London
tel: +44 2076126599
fax: +44 2076126741
"Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music in them..."



Oliver Wendell Holmes


%

Hm, are you sure thar it's distortion at the A/D point? Could it be
'popping' caused by the trombone or trumpet?
I would try to 'break-it down' a little. Do you have the same problem
with all 3 mics? Try them one by one, one instrument (or kind of
instrument) at a time. Have them play the 'loud' or 'punchy' passage
and see what's happening. Try a pop-shield as well (you never know).

Good luck,

Evangelos

quote: I don=B4t want the sound to be
influenced by a compressor

that's the $3000 question: Cranesong STC-8.

In article writes:

I'm confused.. You;r erunning 24 bits, what the heck's your worry for
headroom?

You know the old argument - "If I don't hit full scale, I'm not running
24 bits and I'm losing resolution, right?".

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

So the main opinion here is:
1) No need to reduce dynamics, simply reduce the gain and/or back the
horns off the mics.
2) There´s no need to record the signal with a high level (hope you
understand my english) as you usually did with a analogue tape
recorder.

So there´s another question for me:
Creamware writes in the A/D converter´s manual: "You HAVE to care
about high leveling". Is this nonsense ?
And as I wrote earlier, I´m not able to keep a big distance between
the horns, because the room is actually too small and therefore I have
to put the mics very close to the horn, not directly ´looking´ into
the bell.

Thank you for any opinions on that

Ewald

"Ewald Streitenberger" wrote in message om...

So the main opinion here is:
1) No need to reduce dynamics, simply reduce the gain and/or back the
horns off the mics.
2) There´s no need to record the signal with a high level (hope you
understand my english) as you usually did with a analogue tape
recorder.

I would agree with that...


So there´s another question for me:
Creamware writes in the A/D converter´s manual: "You HAVE to care
about high leveling". Is this nonsense ?

I believe that it is. If they are making this statement in a generic fashion,
as in it's important to *everything* you record, then it's wrong, in my opinion.
If they are specific about certain sources, then it's at least worth debating.


And as I wrote earlier, I´m not able to keep a big distance between
the horns, because the room is actually too small and therefore I have
to put the mics very close to the horn, not directly ´looking´ into
the bell.

Lower the gain and process after the fact if you need to... once you see
how the part is going to fit into the mix. Otherwise, a hardware peak
limiter in the signal path before the DAW might help a little. There are
not many compressors that attack fast enough to stop the transients
found in most horns.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Yes, it´s definitely digital distortion.
I can see and hear it in the tracks and it happens with all mics.

Regards
Ewald

"Evangelos Himonides" wrote in message roups.com...
Hm, are you sure thar it's distortion at the A/D point? Could it be
'popping' caused by the trombone or trumpet?
I would try to 'break-it down' a little. Do you have the same problem
with all 3 mics? Try them one by one, one instrument (or kind of
instrument) at a time. Have them play the 'loud' or 'punchy' passage
and see what's happening. Try a pop-shield as well (you never know).

Good luck,

Evangelos

this may not be germaine to the topic but it is not off topic

The two parts of the article "The Art of Recording The Big Band" by
Robert Auld are very interesting and instructional reading.

http://www.auldworks.com/index.htm

dale

Ewald Streitenberger wrote:
So the main opinion here is:
1) No need to reduce dynamics, simply reduce the gain and/or back the
horns off the mics.
2) There=B4s no need to record the signal with a high level (hope you
understand my english) as you usually did with a analogue tape
recorder.

So there=B4s another question for me:
Creamware writes in the A/D converter=B4s manual: "You HAVE to care
about high leveling". Is this nonsense ?
And as I wrote earlier, I=B4m not able to keep a big distance between
the horns, because the room is actually too small and therefore I
have
to put the mics very close to the horn, not directly =B4looking=B4 into
the bell.

Thank you for any opinions on that

Ewald

With 24 bits you have about 144 dB dynamic range. Yep just turn it
down. You can give up a few dB at the top end, you still have plenty
to work with.

Mark

"Ewald Streitenberger" wrote in message om...

Yes, it´s definitely digital distortion.
I can see and hear it in the tracks and it happens with all mics.

Are you absolutely certyain that the rest of your gain structure is set up
to accomodate the source? Could the distortion be in the mic pres?
With that much analogue gear in the path, there's a good chance
something else is going on. How can you be *absolutely certain*
that the distortion is coming from the digital side of the equation?
Have you eliminated _everything_ analogue?

DM

The distortion appears also with the EV RE20 which is a dynamic
microphone, and it distorts always when the clip LED of the A/D
interface flashes.
But I will keep an eye on this.
Thanks for your help.

"David Morgan \(MAMS\)" wrote in message
How can you be *absolutely certain*
that the distortion is coming from the digital side of the equation?
Have you eliminated _everything_ analogue?

DM

In article writes:

So the main opinion here is:
1) No need to reduce dynamics, simply reduce the gain and/or back the
horns off the mics.

Well, really, position the horns reltaive to the mics (and the room)
so that you get the sound sound want, adjust the mic preamp input gain
so that the preamp doesn't clip during the loudest parts (leave
yourself a little headroom here), and them adjust the preamp output or
A/D converter input gain so that the A/D converter doesn't clip.

The later setting is something that you really only need to do once
and nail it in place, or mark it for each preamp you use with that A/D
converter.

2) There´s no need to record the signal with a high level (hope you
understand my english) as you usually did with a analogue tape
recorder.

It's better to say that it's preferable to record at a conservative
level rather than risk overload. Unlike analog tape, you have a low
enough system noise floor so that you don't need to get maximum
playback level in order to overcome the noise. You can boost the
digital recording 10 or 20 dB if you need to, though you shouldn't
count on boosting it 40 or 60 dB. So you still have to pay some
attention to the range where you're recording.

Creamware writes in the A/D converter´s manual: "You HAVE to care
about high leveling". Is this nonsense ?

No, not if you interpret it to mean that you HAVE to care about
exceeding the maximum input level of the A/D converter, because this
will case digital clipping.

And as I wrote earlier, I´m not able to keep a big distance between
the horns, because the room is actually too small and therefore I have
to put the mics very close to the horn, not directly ´looking´ into
the bell.

If your mic preamp or mixer has a pad (10 or 20 dB attenuator) switch
you might find it useful to get the proper level at the mic preamp.
You can get in-line (plug-in) pads to reduce the level into the preamp
if necessary.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Ewald Streitenberger" wrote in
message om

The distortion appears also with the EV RE20 which is a dynamic
microphone, and it distorts always when the clip LED of the A/D
interface flashes.

So how hard is it to turn the gain down to avoid this?

In article writes:

The distortion appears also with the EV RE20 which is a dynamic
microphone, and it distorts always when the clip LED of the A/D
interface flashes.

"Clip" indicators don't all mean the same thing. Some mean that
clipping has occurred, some mean that if the level gets 1 or 2 dB
higher, clipping will occur. Occasionally you'll see a "clip" light
that tells you that you have 8 to 10 dB left before clipping.

If you're getting distortion when you see that light flash, set the
controls so that it doesn't flash. If you still hear distortion, then
the distortion is in the analog part of the chain or your A/D
converter is broken.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Ewald Streitenberger wrote:
Yes, it´s definitely digital distortion.
I can see and hear it in the tracks and it happens with all mics.

So turn it down. That's why you have a volume control on the preamp.

Horns have a very spiky waveform.... the average level is much lower
than the peak level. This was always a problem in the analogue world
because you couldn't believe your VU meters and had to record at much
lower levels than the meters indicated. Thank God we don't have to deal
with that any more.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ewald Streitenberger wrote:
The distortion appears also with the EV RE20 which is a dynamic
microphone, and it distorts always when the clip LED of the A/D
interface flashes.

Yes, it certainly would. That's why that LED is there... to warn you
that you've gone WAY out of the safe range and are into distortion.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ewald Streitenberger wrote:
I=B4m about to do a recording with a brassband in my home studio. My
problem is to prevent distortion of my A/D interface because of the
wide dynamic range of the horns. My preamp is a Allen & Heath GL2
analogue mixer, with Presonus ACP-88 compressors in each channel
insert. The mixer group output is sent to the A/D interface which is
a
Creamware A16 Ultra, 44.1 kHz 24 bits. I don=B4t want the sound to be
influenced by a compressor, so the ACP-88 is only used as a limiter
with ratio 20:1, attack and release 1ms. But I can=B4t prevent the
horns to overload the AD interface sometimes.
What can I do to get a good leveled recording ?
Can I set the ACP-88 to the lowest attack and release with the
highest
ratio to cut the peaks ?
Should I use a compressor for reducing dynamics first and a limiter
in
line to cut the remainig peaks ?
Thank you very much for your recommendations.

Ewald

You're on the right track. Lower your threshold and you'll wipe out the
peaks and your waveform will be at the perfect level.

The only problem is when you play it back it won't sound like the
instrument you recorded. Depending on the music you may like the sound,
but most people don't like the sound of limiting.

Turn the level down and tell the player to give a leveled performance.
He may even want to adjust his phrasing when he understands what needs
to happen with his part later in the mix. I assuing that you want a
leveled perfromace for musical reasons as opposed to taking something
that is intended to have a dynamic range and levelling it for academic
reasons.

On 4 Apr 2005 13:07:15 -0700, "Mike Caffrey"
wrote:

Turn the level down and tell the player to give a leveled performance.
He may even want to adjust his phrasing when he understands what needs
to happen with his part later in the mix.

Oh dear! You aren't asking the horns to record their parts in
isolation, are you? No wonder we have to spend so much trouble
fixing in the mix what should (and would) have been naturally done by
the players in a live interactive musical situation.

On 4/4/05 12:22 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:


Horns have a very spiky waveform.... the average level is much lower
than the peak level. This was always a problem in the analogue world
because you couldn't believe your VU meters and had to record at much
lower levels than the meters indicated. Thank God we don't have to deal
with that any more.
--scott

I LIKE dealing with that...

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 4/4/05 12:22 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

Horns have a very spiky waveform.... the average level is much lower
than the peak level. This was always a problem in the analogue world
because you couldn't believe your VU meters and had to record at much
lower levels than the meters indicated. Thank God we don't have to deal
with that any more.

I LIKE dealing with that...

I don't, but I got around it by switching the meters on the ATR-100 to
peak-reading instead of VU....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Laurence Payne wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 13:07:15 -0700, "Mike Caffrey"
wrote:

Turn the level down and tell the player to give a leveled
performance.
He may even want to adjust his phrasing when he understands what
needs
to happen with his part later in the mix.

Oh dear! You aren't asking the horns to record their parts in
isolation, are you? No wonder we have to spend so much trouble
fixing in the mix what should (and would) have been naturally done by
the players in a live interactive musical situation.

I thought it was just one player.

My point is, if you have them play with the apropriate dynamics, then
you wont have to worry about compression for leveling purposes. I've
found that will lead to tracks that are really easy to mix.

Do you find yourself spending a lot of time fixing your horn tracks?

I thought it was just one player.

op : "I'm about to do a recording with a brassband in my home
studio..."


My point is, if you have them play with the apropriate dynamics, then
you wont have to worry about compression for leveling purposes. I've
found that will lead to tracks that are really easy to mix.

Do you find yourself spending a lot of time fixing your horn tracks?


Yup. Far too much emphasis on turd-polishing these days. Play the
music right in the first place.