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#1
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small room and bass.
Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to
have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. |
#2
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small room and bass.
Small spaces are usually good for bass (automobiles for example) but a
square room is not good. I would try a (one) sub woofer and experiment with location. -MIKE |
#3
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small room and bass.
The idea that "some rooms are too small for bass" is widespread. It has
something to do with wavelengths and the space required to support specific frequencies. Lacking any training in physics I have always wondered wondered how this logic could be true. What if it were applied to headphones? Given a distance from diaphragm to eardrum of maybe an inch headphones shouldn't produce bass, or even midrange. I believe that you can get good bass. A square room can create problems, but there are solutions. I can refer you to Acoustic Sciences Corporation, a leader in room treatment. http://www.acousticsciences.com/ascmain.htm Maybe they have what you need. Of course there are many other companies in the field and some DIY solutions, but solutions offered by ASC's experts just might be worth the money. Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store "RBernst929" wrote in message ... Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. |
#4
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small room and bass.
Subwoofer placement in the room is probably the problem. Many years
ago, I had a friend who used Altec theater systems with a 400 watt Crown amplifier. He complained about the lack of bass at his listening position ... which it turned out, was in a null. At other room locations, the bass levels were so high they were intolerable. To find your best subwoofer location, first place the subwoofer at your listening position. Then, while feeding it a low frequency signal, walk around the room, listening along the walls, at the height the sub woofer would be, either by ear or with an SPL meter, for the loudest location. Then relocate your subwoofer to that location, and you should have the problem solved. On 19 Apr 2004 05:06:13 GMT, (RBernst929) wrote: Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. |
#5
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small room and bass.
Subwoofer placement in the room is probably the problem. Many years
ago, I had a friend who used Altec theater systems with a 400 watt Crown amplifier. He complained about the lack of bass at his listening position ... which it turned out, was in a null. At other room locations, the bass levels were so high they were intolerable. To find your best subwoofer location, first place the subwoofer at your listening position. Then, while feeding it a low frequency signal, walk around the room, listening along the walls, at the height the sub woofer would be, either by ear or with an SPL meter, for the loudest location. Then relocate your subwoofer to that location, and you should have the problem solved. On 19 Apr 2004 05:06:13 GMT, (RBernst929) wrote: Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. |
#6
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small room and bass.
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#7
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small room and bass.
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#8
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small room and bass.
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#9
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small room and bass.
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#11
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small room and bass.
(Dick Pierce) wrote:
(Nousaine) wrote in message ... (RBernst929) wrote: Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. You'll get plenty of bass. Below the lowest axial modal frequency (about 50 Hz in this case) you'll get a 12-dB per octave reinforce- ment as frequency falls.) Well, no, not exactly. The 12 dB per octave boost occurs because you're operating the room in pressurization mode from a source that's operating in constant accelertation mode. The former condition can only exist of the time constant of the leaks in the room are significantly longer than the 50 Hz cutoff and the latter exists in loudspeakers only above fundamental resonance. Violate either condition, and your 12 dB/octave boost is compromised. This may be true. OTOH in a previous 2150 ft3 room (with only a 5-foot open doorway) pressure zone reinforcement was clearly evident starting just under 30 Hz. In my Corvette I can measure over 30 dB of reinforcement at 8 Hz with 10-inch woofers in a small sealed enclosures (Fsb 50-60 Hz). |
#12
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small room and bass.
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#13
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small room and bass.
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#14
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small room and bass.
RBernst929 wrote:
Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. Take a look at the white papers about bass and rooms on the harman web page: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=122 http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003 -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
#16
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small room and bass.
Buster Mudd wrote:
(Nousaine) wrote in message ... This is all easily equalizable with even a 1/3 octave equalizer. A single cut at 50 or 62 Hz will most likely cure things. ...at some position in the room, sure. But 8" to the left, that single cut @ 50 or 62Hz will have so dramatically skewed the low frequency response it'll make your head swim when you lean over to pick up your beer. Fortunately, I don't do that much leaning over when I'm sitting in my standard listening position...even after a few beers. I would bet that most serious audio hobbyists tend to 1) listen alone and 2) sit in a 'sweet spot' to which their setup has been tailored. For them, knocking down bass peaks with EQ has merit. You can never completely address temporal artifacts with frequency adjustments. Peaks & nulls in the low frequency response of small rooms are due to standing waves & acoustic interference...these are a direct result of the physical dimensions of your room. Changing the frequency response of the material you playback into that room does not change the physical dimensions of the room; there will still be standing waves at certain frequencies, there will still be peaks & nulls in the room's response, & you will have simply sacrificed some valuable amplifier headroom by trying to smooth out those anomalies with an equalizer. You will also have sacrificed some valuable cash by buying that equalizer in the first place. Better to spend that cash on acoustic treatment to smooth out interference & lessen the effects of room modes. A modest investment in broadband absorbers & bass traps will do more to flatten the room response of any playback equipment than even the most expensive equalizer. I kinda doubt Tom N. needs a lecture on room acoustics and bass. -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#17
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small room and bass.
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#18
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small room and bass.
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#19
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small room and bass.
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#20
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small room and bass.
Your best bet is to go with room treatments. There is only oe company that
comes to my mind that can help you out very in expensively. www.roomtune.com They really can do wonders for your room. "RBernst929" wrote in message ... Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. |
#21
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small room and bass.
In article kSchc.5788$GR.702891@attbi_s01,
(Dick Pierce) wrote: (Nousaine) wrote in message ... (RBernst929) wrote: Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. You'll get plenty of bass. Below the lowest axial modal frequency (about 50 Hz in this case) you'll get a 12-dB per octave reinforce- ment as frequency falls.) Well, no, not exactly. The 12 dB per octave boost occurs because you're operating the room in pressurization mode from a source that's operating in constant accelertation mode. The former condition can only exist of the time constant of the leaks in the room are significantly longer than the 50 Hz cutoff and the latter exists in loudspeakers only above fundamental resonance. Violate either condition, and your 12 dB/octave boost is compromised. for acoustic suspension figures doesn't the 12 db/octave boost cancel the 12 db/octave drop? Leading to the conclusion that one should get a speaker whose base resonance is just above the room node? |
#22
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small room and bass.
RBernst929 wrote:
Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. Take a look at: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=122 http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003 -- http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/ ..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC) Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94 |
#23
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small room and bass.
RBernst929 wrote:
Hi everyone. If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? No matter whether i add a subwoofer or two? Can i never get any better bass than 50hz? -Bob Bernstein. The problem you have is too much 50 Hz. If you have an 8-foot ceiling you have the axial length and width moded stacked up at 50 Hz followed closey with the ceiling mode at 70 Hz. But you will get wonderful lower frequency room reinforcement below 50 Hz (12 dB per octave as frequency falls.) However because you have so much at 50 Hz you just can't appreciate the lower stuff. If you think about how deep your voice sounds when you sing in the shower you get an idea of how bass works in small spaces. The smaller the easier it is to get bass. In a small room however, especially with identical dimensions things get complicated by the modal range. In yourt case the modal range starts at 50 Hz and runs to about 300 Hz. In a medium sized room it usually starts around 30 Hz and runs to 300 Hz. In a car the modal range is shifted up an octave (60 too 600 Hz) which makes it easier to get low bass but complicates acoustics in the midrange. |
#24
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small room and bass.
"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote
If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? I didn't read your links and I have no training in physics. Nevertheless I say that if you can have deep bass in the space between a headphone diaphragm and your eardrum, or in a car, you can have bass in your room. The size isn't the problem, but the dimensions may be. Have you actually had a problem or are you just asking? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store |
#25
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small room and bass.
"Wylie Williams" wrote in message news:YktFc.16946$IQ4.8231@attbi_s02...
"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? I didn't read your links and I have no training in physics. Nevertheless I say that if you can have deep bass in the space between a headphone diaphragm and your eardrum, or in a car, you can have bass in your room. The size isn't the problem, but the dimensions may be. Have you actually had a problem or are you just asking? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store What about medium- and large-sized room? I listen music in a 5.5 * 6 mt with 4.5 mt ceiling. I expect excess bass at around 344/4 = 86 Hz which i tame with a digital equalizer. Should it be better to dump the mode with a passive absorber (in principle it it easier to build a bass absorber at a higher frequency) Regards |
#26
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small room and bass.
I have no clear idea whether equalizing or absorbing a bass peak is better.
I definitely believe that buying an using a digital equalizer with its associated microphone would be, for me, more achievable than learning how to build a bass absorer that would be just right for the frequency and amplitude of the bass peak. Not that I have used such an equalizer, but I am considering buying and trying. However, before spending I would like to hear of some RAHE contributor experiences in this area. Wylie Williams "andy" wrote in message news:yKdGc.28707$Oq2.26503@attbi_s52... "Wylie Williams" wrote in message news:YktFc.16946$IQ4.8231@attbi_s02... "Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" wrote If i have a small, square 11'x 11' listening room am i doomed to have no bass? I didn't read your links and I have no training in physics. Nevertheless I say that if you can have deep bass in the space between a headphone diaphragm and your eardrum, or in a car, you can have bass in your room. The size isn't the problem, but the dimensions may be. Have you actually had a problem or are you just asking? Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store What about medium- and large-sized room? I listen music in a 5.5 * 6 mt with 4.5 mt ceiling. I expect excess bass at around 344/4 = 86 Hz which i tame with a digital equalizer. Should it be better to dump the mode with a passive absorber (in principle it it easier to build a bass absorber at a higher frequency) Regards |
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