[mcp6453[_2_]]

For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic change.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

What values do you need? Up to about a henry, you can get stuff just from
Digi-Key. If you start needing really large stuff, places like MCE in
California will sell onsie-twosie.

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic change.

I don't. You know, there might actually be a market for a standalone phase
rotator box these days. Maybe in a 500-series module.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark]

On Feb 13, 11:05*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic change.

you may want to consider a design that uses op-amps instead of
inductors...

http://www.w3am.com/8poleapf.html

I'm curious, are you using this for an AM or FM radio application or
for recording?

Mark

[david gourley[_2_]]

mcp6453 put forth the notion
in...news:btGdnZzJM82NN8XQnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganew s.com:

For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for
about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive
components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is
getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low
quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone
have a
suggestion?

Cinemag ? That's where I'd go.



Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The
Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic change.

Bump.


david

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 2/14/2011 9:39 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

What values do you need? Up to about a henry, you can get stuff just from
Digi-Key. If you start needing really large stuff, places like MCE in
California will sell onsie-twosie.

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic chain.

I don't. You know, there might actually be a market for a standalone phase
rotator box these days. Maybe in a 500-series module.


Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak. Unfortunately the
inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according to the patent. It would be a
trivial circuit to build, but I'd rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H
inductor is quite pricey these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones
Leonard used. That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra
Peak ship with a technical manual?

http://www.w3am.com/SymmetraPeakPatent.pdf

To answer Mark, one of my hobbies is podcasting. Many voices are predominantly
positive or predominantly negative in content. I have no idea how or why that
is, but running through a phase rotator makes things nice and symmetrical.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak. Unfortunately the
inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according to the patent. It would be a
trivial circuit to build, but I'd rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H
inductor is quite pricey these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones
Leonard used. That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra
Peak ship with a technical manual?

Magnetic Circuit Elements in Monterey has 6 henry and 9.5 henry inductors
off the shelf, as OC18CL43 and OC18CL44, probably under ten bucks. I'd
go with the 6 henry and bump the cap value up a touch.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 2/14/2011 2:30 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak. Unfortunately the
inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according to the patent. It would be a
trivial circuit to build, but I'd rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H
inductor is quite pricey these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones
Leonard used. That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra
Peak ship with a technical manual?

Magnetic Circuit Elements in Monterey has 6 henry and 9.5 henry inductors
off the shelf, as OC18CL43 and OC18CL44, probably under ten bucks. I'd
go with the 6 henry and bump the cap value up a touch.
--scott

Awesome. Thanks.

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:04:41 -0500, Mark wrote
(in article
):

On Feb 13, 11:05*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about
$150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive
components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is
getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low
quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust
VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic change.

you may want to consider a design that uses op-amps instead of
inductors...

http://www.w3am.com/8poleapf.html

I'm curious, are you using this for an AM or FM radio application or
for recording?

Mark

Get an Orban Optimod. It has a phase rotator that undoes what naturally
occurs (asymmetrical peaks) and makes positive and negative peaks
symmetrical.

As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than positive
peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's a polarity flip
somewhere.

Originally this was created to allow US radio stations to be louder, not
better.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:05:30 -0500, mcp6453 wrote
(in article ) :

To answer Mark, one of my hobbies is podcasting. Many voices are
predominantly
positive or predominantly negative in content. I have no idea how or why that
is, but running through a phase rotator makes things nice and symmetrical.

and unnatural.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[geoff]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak.
Unfortunately the inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according
to the patent. It would be a trivial circuit to build, but I'd
rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H inductor is quite pricey
these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones Leonard used.
That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra Peak
ship with a technical manual?

Magnetic Circuit Elements in Monterey has 6 henry and 9.5 henry
inductors off the shelf, as OC18CL43 and OC18CL44, probably under ten
bucks. I'd go with the 6 henry and bump the cap value up a touch.
--scott

Dont know what the inductor value(s) are , but in my Quad ESL63s, the delay
line involves 14 miles of wire, so they say ...!

geoff

[Mark]

On Feb 14, 2:05*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
On 2/14/2011 9:39 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:





mcp6453 wrote:
For whatever reason, I have been trying unsuccessfully to buy a Kahn
Symmetra-Peak for the last five years. Several have come and gone for about $150
each. It looks like I may have to build one. Since it's all passive components,
it should be easy to build using point-to-point wiring. The problem is getting
the inductors. A long time ago, there was a shop that would wind a low quantity
of inductors for a reasonable price. I don't have a name. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

What values do you need? *Up to about a henry, you can get stuff just from
Digi-Key. *If you start needing really large stuff, places like MCE in
California will sell onsie-twosie.

Alternatively, does anyone know of an outboard phase rotator? The Stardust VST
plug-in does a good job even if I don't have all of the parameters set
correctly, but I would love to have on in the mic chain.

I don't. *You know, there might actually be a market for a standalone phase
rotator box these days. *Maybe in a 500-series module.

Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak. Unfortunately the
inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according to the patent. It would be a
trivial circuit to build, but I'd rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H
inductor is quite pricey these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones
Leonard used. That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra
Peak ship with a technical manual?

http://www.w3am.com/SymmetraPeakPatent.pdf

To answer Mark, one of my hobbies is podcasting. Many voices are predominantly
positive or predominantly negative in content. I have no idea how or why that
is, but running through a phase rotator makes things nice and symmetrical..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

well there is no particular reason to use this for a pod casting
appllication, you are not trying to overcome noise and static like AM
radio...

but if you really really want to do this anyway, an op-amp equivilant
circuit can do the same thing

Mark

[Bill Graham]

Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Bill Graham wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

Sure it is, because the deflection of the vocal cords is NOT directly
proportional to the air pressure. There can be compression peaks that
are greater than rarification peaks, and the other way around.

This is pretty much normal for everyone's voice. Since AM broadcast
modulation is also asymmetric (you have a little more range on positive
going peaks than negative one), phase rotation is critical there.

Used to be the engineer would just give the announcer a figure-8 ribbon
and tell him to use the front or the back depending on how his voice measured.
These days we have fancy electronics to deal with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark]

On Feb 15, 5:10*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

Bill,

it is well known that most voices and many musical instruments have an
assymetrical waveform...note that this means that the PEAKs are
assymetrical. the area under the upper curve and the lower curve
averaged over time are equal (by definition if the system is AC
coupled) and that is probably what you are thinking about.

This is/was a big deal for AM radio transmitters that are limted to
100% downward modulation but can go to 125% or more upward. But for
pod casting the assymetry should make no difference, but it is there.

Mark

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Bill Graham wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't
imagine why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater
negative peaks than positive ones. That's not physically possible,
IMO.....

Sure it is, because the deflection of the vocal cords is NOT directly
proportional to the air pressure. There can be compression peaks that
are greater than rarification peaks, and the other way around.

This is pretty much normal for everyone's voice. Since AM broadcast
modulation is also asymmetric (you have a little more range on
positive
going peaks than negative one), phase rotation is critical there.

Used to be the engineer would just give the announcer a figure-8
ribbon
and tell him to use the front or the back depending on how his voice
measured. These days we have fancy electronics to deal with it.
--scott

Oh. I always thought that vocal cords were kind of like guitar strings, so
they would vibrate "up" just as far as "down". - That's why I like
newsgroups....You learn something new almost every day....

[Bill Graham]

Mark wrote:
On Feb 15, 5:10 pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't
imagine why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater
negative peaks than positive ones. That's not physically possible,
IMO.....

Bill,

it is well known that most voices and many musical instruments have an
assymetrical waveform...note that this means that the PEAKs are
assymetrical. the area under the upper curve and the lower curve
averaged over time are equal (by definition if the system is AC
coupled) and that is probably what you are thinking about.

This is/was a big deal for AM radio transmitters that are limted to
100% downward modulation but can go to 125% or more upward. But for
pod casting the assymetry should make no difference, but it is there.

Mark

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are many
different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will have to think
about it for a while.....

[hank alrich]

geoff wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak.
Unfortunately the inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according
to the patent. It would be a trivial circuit to build, but I'd
rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H inductor is quite pricey
these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones Leonard used.
That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra Peak
ship with a technical manual?

Magnetic Circuit Elements in Monterey has 6 henry and 9.5 henry
inductors off the shelf, as OC18CL43 and OC18CL44, probably under ten
bucks. I'd go with the 6 henry and bump the cap value up a touch.
--scott

Dont know what the inductor value(s) are , but in my Quad ESL63s, the delay
line involves 14 miles of wire, so they say ...!

geoff

Curly cables forever!

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article ,
Bill Graham wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

Sure it is, because the deflection of the vocal cords is NOT directly
proportional to the air pressure. There can be compression peaks that
are greater than rarification peaks, and the other way around.

This is pretty much normal for everyone's voice. Since AM broadcast
modulation is also asymmetric (you have a little more range on positive
going peaks than negative one), phase rotation is critical there.

Used to be the engineer would just give the announcer a figure-8 ribbon
and tell him to use the front or the back depending on how his voice measured.
These days we have fancy electronics to deal with it.
--scott

Tell ol' Bil he can't imagine...

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Mark wrote:

On Feb 15, 5:10 pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

Bill,

it is well known that most voices and many musical instruments have an
assymetrical waveform...note that this means that the PEAKs are
assymetrical. the area under the upper curve and the lower curve
averaged over time are equal (by definition if the system is AC
coupled) and that is probably what you are thinking about.

This is/was a big deal for AM radio transmitters that are limted to
100% downward modulation but can go to 125% or more upward. But for
pod casting the assymetry should make no difference, but it is there.

Mark

The imagination of the of the engineer...

One look at a couple dozen voices tracked into a DAW and bingo, data.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 2/14/2011 2:30 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Here's all I know about the innards of a Kahn Symmetra-Peak. Unfortunately the
inductors are 7H. The caps are 0.03uF, according to the patent. It would be a
trivial circuit to build, but I'd rather just buy one. My bet is that a 7H
inductor is quite pricey these days. Plus, I don't know the specs on the ones
Leonard used. That information should be available, though. Did the Symmetra
Peak ship with a technical manual?

Magnetic Circuit Elements in Monterey has 6 henry and 9.5 henry inductors
off the shelf, as OC18CL43 and OC18CL44, probably under ten bucks. I'd
go with the 6 henry and bump the cap value up a touch.
--scott

The inductors are just under $5 each. Not bad. I asked them if they could wind
the OC18CL43 to 7H instead of 6H, and they said, "The OC18CL43 has laminations
with an air gap to handle a DC. The inductance decreases due to the lamination
core; however, the impedance continues to increase. I am not sure that
increasing the inductance to 7000 mH will make much difference because of the
large distributive capacitance of the winding." I sort of understand what he's
saying. However, couldn't they leave some windings off the 9.5H version?

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are many
different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will have to think
about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the negative-going
ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.
--scott

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not look
like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the base line
should be the same. I think this area represents the energy created by the
device, whether voice or instrument. And, I don't know what this means in
terms of the sound as it reaches the ear.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mark" wrote in message

On Feb 15, 5:10 pm, "Bill Graham"
wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative
peaks than positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave
form, I can tell if there's a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too
high. I can't imagine why your voice, or any other
instrument would have greater negative peaks than
positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....

Bill,

it is well known that most voices and many musical
instruments have an assymetrical waveform...note that
this means that the PEAKs are assymetrical. the area
under the upper curve and the lower curve averaged over
time are equal (by definition if the system is AC
coupled) and that is probably what you are thinking
about.

This is/was a big deal for AM radio transmitters that are
limted to 100% downward modulation but can go to 125% or
more upward. But for pod casting the assymetry should
make no difference, but it is there.

I'm not so sure about that. Many users of digital players report
difficulties getting adequate loudness for listening in noisy locations,
even with IEMs.

The maximum output of portable digital players appears to be tightly
regulated in the EU, for example.

When I make voice recordings for download, I normalize them to 90%.

If I had requests for louder recordings I would consider dynamics processing
and probably use an all-pass fiilter to make the recordings more
symmetrical.

But, the all-pass filter I would use would be electronic (IOW ICs not big
inductors) or implemented in the digital domain because it can be done there
very effectively inexpensively and with minimal other artifacts.

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 2/16/2011 8:21 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. Many users of digital players report
difficulties getting adequate loudness for listening in noisy locations,
even with IEMs.

The maximum output of portable digital players appears to be tightly
regulated in the EU, for example.

When I make voice recordings for download, I normalize them to 90%.

If I had requests for louder recordings I would consider dynamics processing
and probably use an all-pass fiilter to make the recordings more
symmetrical.

But, the all-pass filter I would use would be electronic (IOW ICs not big
inductors) or implemented in the digital domain because it can be done there
very effectively inexpensively and with minimal other artifacts.

How would you do it in the digital domain? I use a VST plug-in in Adobe Audition
called Stardust, but I guessed at the settings. If it works, it works, but it
would be good to have a clue what I'm really doing.

[hank alrich]

Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.
--scott

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not look
like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the base line
should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not look
like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the base line
should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it would have to be that
way because the total pressure has to be the same before and after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't direct air pressure
or anything much like it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is,
with positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might
not look like the negative part, the area between the two curves
and the base line should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it would have to be
that way because the total pressure has to be the same before and
after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't direct air
pressure or anything much like it.
--scott

We engineers usually start everything with a, "suspicion", which is always
subject to verification for what is important.
This is the stuff of invention. Without it, the world would be a very dull
and uninteresting place, in spite of vast technical knowledge.

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:10:10 -0500, Bill Graham wrote
(in article ) :

Ty Ford wrote:
As a side note, I know my voice has larger negative peaks than
positive peaks. If I'm looking at a wave form, I can tell if there's
a polarity flip somewhere.

My guess is that you have drawn the "average" line too high. I can't imagine
why your voice, or any other instrument would have greater negative peaks
than positive ones. That's not physically possible, IMO.....


Bill,

Regardless of your imagination, that's the way it is.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:13:48 -0500, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.
--scott

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not look
like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the base line
should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.



+1

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:58 -0500, Bill Graham wrote
(in article ):

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is,
with positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might
not look like the negative part, the area between the two curves
and the base line should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it would have to be
that way because the total pressure has to be the same before and
after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't direct air
pressure or anything much like it.
--scott

We engineers usually start everything with a, "suspicion", which is always
subject to verification for what is important.
This is the stuff of invention. Without it, the world would be a very dull
and uninteresting place, in spite of vast technical knowledge.


WE?



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[hank alrich]

Ty Ford wrote:

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:58 -0500, Bill Graham wrote
(in article ):

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There are
many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I will
have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is,
with positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet without
changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might
not look like the negative part, the area between the two curves
and the base line should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and guessing
wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it would have to be
that way because the total pressure has to be the same before and
after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't direct air
pressure or anything much like it.
--scott

We engineers usually start everything with a, "suspicion", which is always
subject to verification for what is important.
This is the stuff of invention. Without it, the world would be a very dull
and uninteresting place, in spite of vast technical knowledge.


WE?

Some of us aren't talking about inventing stuff, we're talking about the
reality of vocal and other waverforms. He doesn't get that he is not an
audio engineer, obviously.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

--scott

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not
look like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the
base line should be the same. I think this area represents the energy
created by the device, whether voice or instrument. And, I don't know
what this means in terms of the sound as it reaches the ear.

Read up on what equal harmonics, especially second, do to the curve-shape.
As for vox humana it appears that most people tend to be positive, but even
those do have some wovels that are negative.

Interestingly positive sounds slightly sharp while negative sounds slightly
flat. Listening for the audibility of acoustic polarity can be great fun,
especially if it is a multitrack mix with mixed polarity, but do be aware
that second harmonic distortion from the playback system tends to act as a
detection bias.

Recordings made with DPA4006 seem to me to be less asymmetric than many
other recordings, so do not jump to the conclusion that an observed
asymmetry correlates with an actual one. Also multiband processing can
change the observed/audible asymmetry.

Audio tends to be unsimple once you scratch the black paint off with a key,
mostly however it may be the gear pushers that end up with the stuff dreams
are made of.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Bill Graham]

Ty Ford wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:45:58 -0500, Bill Graham wrote
(in article ):

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like this....There
are many different sounds that some people can get out of it. I
will have to think about it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is,
with positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on trumpet
without changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might
not look like the negative part, the area between the two curves
and the base line should be the same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing, and
guessing wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it would have to
be that way because the total pressure has to be the same before and
after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't direct air
pressure or anything much like it.
--scott

We engineers usually start everything with a, "suspicion", which is
always subject to verification for what is important.
This is the stuff of invention. Without it, the world would be a
very dull and uninteresting place, in spite of vast technical
knowledge.


WE?

We good ones.

[Bill Graham]

Peter Larsen wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms there is, with
positive-going peaks that are enormous compared with the
negative-going ones.

--scott

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the wave might not
look like the negative part, the area between the two curves and the
base line should be the same. I think this area represents the energy
created by the device, whether voice or instrument. And, I don't know
what this means in terms of the sound as it reaches the ear.

Read up on what equal harmonics, especially second, do to the
curve-shape. As for vox humana it appears that most people tend to be
positive, but even those do have some wovels that are negative.

Interestingly positive sounds slightly sharp while negative sounds
slightly flat. Listening for the audibility of acoustic polarity can
be great fun, especially if it is a multitrack mix with mixed
polarity, but do be aware that second harmonic distortion from the
playback system tends to act as a detection bias.

Recordings made with DPA4006 seem to me to be less asymmetric than
many other recordings, so do not jump to the conclusion that an
observed asymmetry correlates with an actual one. Also multiband
processing can change the observed/audible asymmetry.

Audio tends to be unsimple once you scratch the black paint off with
a key, mostly however it may be the gear pushers that end up with the
stuff dreams are made of.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

It should be possible to electronically "clip" or remove either the positive
or negative part of the waveform before it readches the speaker. As a matter
of fact, you could probably copy the previous positive half of the wave and
reverse it and patch it into the imediately following half cycle, so the
complete wave was rebuilt with perfect symmetry......I wonder if anyone has
done this?

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill Graham wrote:

It should be possible to electronically "clip" or remove either the positive
or negative part of the waveform before it readches the speaker. As a matter
of fact, you could probably copy the previous positive half of the wave and
reverse it and patch it into the imediately following half cycle, so the
complete wave was rebuilt with perfect symmetry......I wonder if anyone has
done this?

Yes, that's why I mentioned three messages ago in this thread that you can
limit the hell out of a trumpet waveform without changing the tonality
much.

However, if you were to make it symmetric, it wouldn't sound like a trumpet
any more.
--Scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

It should be possible to electronically "clip" or remove either the
positive or negative part of the waveform before it readches the
speaker. As a matter of fact, you could probably copy the previous
positive half of the wave and reverse it and patch it into the
imediately following half cycle, so the complete wave was rebuilt
with perfect symmetry......I wonder if anyone has done this?

Yes, that's why I mentioned three messages ago in this thread that
you can limit the hell out of a trumpet waveform without changing the
tonality much.

However, if you were to make it symmetric, it wouldn't sound like a
trumpet any more.
--Scott

Maybe that's why electronically created trumpet sounds are so poor at
replicating a real trumpet. It may be that they are symmetrical......Of all
the sounds that eminate from synthesizers, the trumpet ones are the least
like a real trumpet.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like
this....There are many different sounds that some
people can get out of it. I will have to think about
it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms
there is, with positive-going peaks that are enormous
compared with the negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on
trumpet without changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the
wave might not look like the negative part, the area
between the two curves and the base line should be the
same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing,
and guessing wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and
take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it
would have to be that way because the total pressure has
to be the same before and after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't
direct air pressure or anything much like it.

Thing is that a velocity microphone like a cardioid is by definition a high
pass filter with zero gain at DC.

But, forget about the mic, the mic preamp is AC coupled. So, the following
must always be true no matter what the microphone:

Without DC coupling and with reasonable linearity, the integral of the
voltage in the recording above zero *must* be equal to the integral of the
voltage below zero.

Or as Bill correctly said:

"...while the positive part of the wave might not look like the negative
part, the area between the two curves and the base line should be the
same."

A tragic example of an attempt by a mob to mis-define technical truth by
political means. Bill is unpopular with some people, so an apparent error is
created out of a true thing that he said.

Sad. :-(

[Arny Krueger]

"mcp6453" wrote in message

On 2/16/2011 8:21 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. Many users of digital
players report difficulties getting adequate loudness
for listening in noisy locations, even with IEMs.

The maximum output of portable digital players appears
to be tightly regulated in the EU, for example.

When I make voice recordings for download, I normalize
them to 90%.

If I had requests for louder recordings I would consider
dynamics processing and probably use an all-pass fiilter
to make the recordings more symmetrical.

But, the all-pass filter I would use would be electronic
(IOW ICs not big inductors) or implemented in the
digital domain because it can be done there very
effectively inexpensively and with minimal other
artifacts.

How would you do it in the digital domain? I use a VST
plug-in in Adobe Audition called Stardust, but I guessed
at the settings. If it works, it works, but it would be
good to have a clue what I'm really doing.

My first experiment would involve the "Graphic Phase Shifter". It is in CEP
2.1, so I presume that its in Audition since Auditon is so heavily based on
CEP.

My first test curve would be 360 degrees of positive phase shift up to say
400 Hz, and then -360 degrees after that. Tune for minimum phase shift
consistent with the desired effect.

I looked at a number my own recordings wondering why I had never
investigated this option, and I found that for whatever reason, the
recordings that I post on the web are *always* very symmetrical from the
get-go. I'm guessing that the highly reverberent space might be the reason
why.

[Scott Dorsey]

Arny Krueger wrote:
Thing is that a velocity microphone like a cardioid is by definition a high
pass filter with zero gain at DC.

A cardioid, though, isn't a velocity microphone. It's also not a pressure
microphone. It's something different.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Bill Graham]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

In article ,
hank alrich wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Yes. - I wonder if my horn can do something like
this....There are many different sounds that some
people can get out of it. I will have to think about
it for a while.....

Yup. Trumpet is one of the most asymmetric waveforms
there is, with positive-going peaks that are enormous
compared with the negative-going ones.

Correspondingly you can use aggressive limiting on
trumpet without changing the tone all that much.

I have a suspicion that while the positive part of the
wave might not look like the negative part, the area
between the two curves and the base line should be the
same.

For an "engineer" you are remarkably prone to guessing,
and guessing wrong. Again, put the music into a DAW and
take a look.

If the wave were directly measuring air pressure, it
would have to be that way because the total pressure has
to be the same before and after the note.

The thing is... what a cardioid microphone measures isn't
direct air pressure or anything much like it.

Thing is that a velocity microphone like a cardioid is by definition
a high pass filter with zero gain at DC.

But, forget about the mic, the mic preamp is AC coupled. So, the
following must always be true no matter what the microphone:

Without DC coupling and with reasonable linearity, the integral of the
voltage in the recording above zero *must* be equal to the integral
of the voltage below zero.

Or as Bill correctly said:

"...while the positive part of the wave might not look like the
negative part, the area between the two curves and the base line
should be the same."

A tragic example of an attempt by a mob to mis-define technical truth
by political means. Bill is unpopular with some people, so an
apparent error is created out of a true thing that he said.

Sad. :-(

Well, another way to look at it, is where would you draw the baseline given
any random audio waveform? You could put it halfway between the peaks, or at
the average voltage point, or where the areas below it and above it are
equal. I believe a scope puts it, defacto, at the average voltage point,
since you set it yourself based on no voltage input at all, and the scope
deflects it up or down based on voltage input.