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Attenuate highest highs?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 18th 20, 03:18 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 15/02/2020 6:18 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 12/02/2020 11:19 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
>> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
>> near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
>> exceptionally
>> well.
>>
>> I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz.
>> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
>> other
>> speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to
>> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
>> 70
>> kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
>>
>> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
>> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor?
>> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
>> balance?
>>
>> I have other speakers I could use but these just sound so damn good
>> otherwise.
>> Re-discovering music from my past through these is amazing, music I've been
>> listening to for decades has new stuff in it... (A cliche but very true in
>> this case.)
>>
>> I tried using a pair of Goodmans Mezzo IIs (that I've always liked) for a
>> few
>> days but they are lacking in the very upper frequencies (likely due to the
>> 32mm SEAS tweeter). I want the highs to be there but not in a piercing way.


That should have read 36mm (1 1/2") SEAS tweeter, the same H-087 Alnico magnet driver that was used
in the Dynaco A25 and A35 speakers.

>> Input appreciated.
>> --
>> Shaun.
>>

>
> **If your hearing is attenuated at HF, then you don't need to further attenuate HF (assuming the
> speaker has been competently designed). You've already stated that you can't hear anything above 16
> ~ 17kHz. Perhaps you should consider room effects. Have you measured the in-room response?


The speakers HAVE been competently designed. Sony still sell these SS-K30EDs in Japan (albeit with
a 'piano black' finish rather than my vinyl-wrapped version) and they're still popular. Also I've
checked them to the best of my ability (I often open older speakers and rotate woofers 180 degrees
to combat sag in the suspension) and they seem to be in perfect condition.

My hearing is attenuated above about 16 - 17 kHz. However it's not a clean shut-off. More like a 6
db/octave slope. I have trouble hearing quiet test-tones but a lot of what I listen to seems to
have quite a bit of high energy high frequency content. As I can barely hear it it makes me strain
to do so, which is fatiguing. Also I keep checking if there's someone at the door or things going
on in the back yard etc.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
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  #12  
Old February 18th 20, 04:28 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.


A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o
plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

> I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
>
> Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.


I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it would
be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while computer
gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are. It's
a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a
home office.

> Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.


The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W MOSFET
amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.

I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem
to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.

> Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.


Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #13  
Old February 18th 20, 04:48 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 15/02/2020 10:05 am, wrote:
> On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-5, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
>> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
>> near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
>> exceptionally well.
>>
>> I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz.
>> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
>> other
>> speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to
>> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
>> 70
>> kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
>>
>> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
>> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor?
>> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
>> balance?

>
> I would posit that what you find irritating is not the presence of
> stuff above 15 kHz, but stuff below that. And if there IS a lot of
> HF material, especially extended bandwidth material (and I'd give
> at least even odds there is NOT), then what you are finding annoying
> is the result of some non-linear process in the speakers.


There is a lot of HF material in the music that I like. I guess the speakers could be non-linear in
the high-end, they were sold as "ED" (for extended definition) and Sony says they go up to 70kHz.

These speakers have quite a following. In Japan (where they are finished in 'piano black' lacquer)
they're sold singly and are often used for all positions in a home theatre.

They weren't a success when sold in the US so there were a lot of forum posts when Circuit City
slashed the retail price of them to $60 or less a pair to clear the line in 2006.
<https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/insignia-vs-sony-ss-k30ed-one-year-later.120083/#post-1273521>

<https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/60-00-pair-audiophile-speakers-from-sony.76953/>
<https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/3duahs/sony_ssk30ed_bookshelf_speakers_from_mid2000s/>

I bought mine second-hand maybe two years ago. They had been used as monitors in an A/V recording
studio for over 10 years and they were only selling as they were going to powered monitors so they
could do away with their amplifier rack.

Sadly (for me) they were never sold cheaply here and, as everyone seems to live on the internet
these days and can find reviews like the above, people selling them second-hand are asking crazy
prices. I just saw four of them being sold for $600 last month and they had tears in the grilles
and the vinyl covering wrinkling and bubbling so had likely been in sunlight for extended periods.
They sold quite quickly.

> To put it bluntly, I would not be the least bit surprised to find
> that something in your speakers (or, more generally, somewhere in
> your system) is broken. It could be a mechanical problem in the
> tweeters like a buzz or rattle problem, there could be some electronic
> issue somewhere, all of which is if there IS very high frequency
> information, generating signal at a level higher enough and a frequency
> low enough that it would be EASILY audible to you if isolated.


I've tried them with different amps, pre-amps and sources and the issue remains. There are no
issues with the drivers or cabinets. I have had other people listen to them and they comment on how
clear and bright the highs are.

> That's the suspect I would be pursuing, knowing what I know about
> such things.


I appreciate your input.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #14  
Old February 18th 20, 05:05 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 15/02/2020 1:11 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
> What are you using for a pre-amp/power amp and/or integrated amp? Does it have tone controls? A small cut to the treble might solve this neatly. But:


Sorry Peter I didn't see your post until now and have replied to all of the others in this thread
so there might be relevant info there. I'm using a very basic pre-amp with no tone controls and a
certain Dynaco ST120 power amp. There is a pass-through crossover between the two taking everything
below 70Hz to a 10" subwoofer as described in another post.

> I run an AR Athena sub-sat system in my office - via a Dynaco PAS-3x & ST-35. Given that even though I am "the boss", I am in an office environment so I keep the volume low.


As mentioned elsewhere my 'office' is a 'soft' alcove (there's carpet, an armchair, curtains etc.)
off my main open-plan dining / kitchen area where I have my computer and desk. As I live alone and
usually listen to material with a wide dynamic range I tend to listen at levels higher than most
people would in a true office environment.

I shouldn't have called it an office really, it's not an accurate description of the space.

> Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.


I've been watching auctions for good quality EQs but unfortunately anything other than used
gimmicky plastic 90s things (that people seem to ask new prices for) are well beyond my price range.

> The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.


I did a bit of reading on the subject (mainly
<http://www.bobhodas.com/examining-the-yamaha-ns-10m.php> ) and dismissed it - for now at least.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #15  
Old February 18th 20, 02:45 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Peter Wieck[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Attenuate highest highs?

Please note the interpolations.


> so there might be relevant info there. I'm using a very basic pre-amp with no tone controls and a certain Dynaco ST120 power amp. There is a pass-through crossover between the two taking everything below 70Hz to a 10" subwoofer as described in another post.


I see that. And you mentioned that the Sub amp has a level-control. Have you tried boosting that just a bit?

>
> > Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s.. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.

>
> I've been watching auctions for good quality EQs but unfortunately anything other than used
> gimmicky plastic 90s things (that people seem to ask new prices for) are well beyond my price range.


The SE-10 I mentioned came my way for $0, as it was perceived as totally dead from the BIN (Buy-it-Now) pile at Kutztown. You will notice that the fuse is inside... and missing in the example I found. As I have my original example purchased as a kit, I do not need two. So, to you it would be cost-of-shipping, not inconsiderable.

>
> > The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.


Getting back to your sub-amp. I am assuming that it is strapped for a single output at 300 watts into 4 ohms. For the record, driving 2N3773s in that configuration to 300 watts is wildly optimistic. Much as one *can* operate a Ford Focus engine at 6,000 RPM - just not for very long. All that aside, I also understand that particular amp sometimes has a problem amplifying mains current hum? When I looked it up, I saw no associated power-supply (or, to be fair, no transformer) or diode/capacitor block. Just a "suggested power supply" http://home.alphalink.com.au/~cambie/PM300/PM300.htm I would also 'fix' the bias (replace the pots) for stability, once you are sure of the proper value(s). A number of US manufacturers used pots back in the day - and as the pots went open, all that magic smoke escaped. And given that device was designed c. 1980, that may be a consideration.

Cutting to the chase, try playing around with the bass output levels, and keep in mind that pretty much anything below 500 HZ is non-directional in any case - such that distance between the treble source and bass source (and you) are the governing factors, not direction. Leading to having the bass source, ideally, the same physical distance from your ears as the treble source. Do also verify phasing - speakers out-of-phase give all sorts of unhappy effects.

Some "stuff" on that: https://us.kef.com/blog/how-to-get-t...nd-positioning

Some further experimentation with placement may be in order.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

  #16  
Old February 18th 20, 07:35 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Trevor Wilson[_3_]
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Posts: 127
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 18/02/2020 9:27 am, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 1:29:45 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
>>> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
>>> dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being >> dissipated in the high range.

>>
>> **Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
>> Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.

>
> AAT the kind of frequencies the original poster is talking
> about, it is almost certinaly NOT a room problem. It would
> be about the LAST thing I would go looking after.


**I've read the OP's words and there is ZERO reference to specific
frequencies. The OP could be referring to frequencies around 3kHz for
all any of us know. I see no measurements, nor anything else that could
provide a starting point for investigations.


>
> Room and speaker/room
>
>> interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
>> perceived audible problems in an audio system.

>
> Not at the kinds of high frequency (>10 kHz) the poster is taking
> about, no.


**I don't see how you can infer that >10kHz is the problem. >10kHz is
NEVER, IME, a problem for anyone other than children.

>
> In all the speakers I have measured in rooms, and that number is
> not inconsiderable, the higher frequencies, and especially that
> region around and above 10 kHz, shows the closest approach to the
> anechoice response of the loudspeaker.


**Sure, but you are assuming the OP knows that >10kHz is the problem. I
posit that the likely problem frequencies are lower. MUCH lower.


>
> Why? For it to be a room problem, you have to have a LOT of paths
> (and by "a lot", I mean the preponderance of all possible paths)
> whose length is proximal to whiole number multiples of eithe 1/4
> or 1/2 a wavelenngth to within a high degree of precision (maybe
> +- a few degrees total phase error), and we're talking wavelength
> on the order of an inch or less. Further, all these paths must have
> a very low total absorption along the paths.
>
>
>> And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
>> going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
>> are overly bright, we should start there.

>
> I would suggest this will be a fruitless pursuit.
>
> Now, if it was just a LITTLE lower in frequency, like a factor
> a hundred times lower, you might have a case.


**I will bet you that the problem can be solved using appropriate (and
inexpensive) room treatments. It always is. Room effects dominate ANY
system. And, frankly, I don't know why you are arguing this point with
me. You know I am correct. What neither of us know, is the ACTUAL
frequencies that are causing discomfort. I betcha it is somewhere around
3kHz. After we see some measurements, then we will know for sure.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #17  
Old February 18th 20, 07:41 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Trevor Wilson[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
>> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
>> dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is
>> being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter
>> is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if
>> the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start
>> there.

>
> A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a
> reasonable amount of high frequency content.
>
> (I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the
> other day and there were 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could
> hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o plus musicians
> were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)


**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need
to employ some room treatments to deal with the problem.

>
>> I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither
>> is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how
>> we perceive sound at various volumes.
>>
>> Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer,
>> especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office.
>> At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass
>> driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency
>> drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

>
> I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume
> is set higher than it would be if I were listening to compressed pop or
> rock music. I sometimes listen to music while computer gaming and it can
> be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.


**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka:
Clipping)? If so, then all bets are off. You may need an amplifier with
more output Voltage capability.

>
> I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my
> computer and desk are. It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small
> business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a home office.
>
>> Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness"
>> function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the
>> bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue
>> than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it
>> possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room
>> corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the
>> bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

>
> The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls
> which goes through a crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer
> amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The crossover takes
> away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the
> 300W MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level
> control.


**You're an Aussie then?

>
> I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90
> and 120Hz) as I want to preserve as much directional information from
> low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem to handle
> frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.
>
> The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a
> couple of decades ago. It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced
> sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when compared to ported
> subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but
> I'm fine with that.
>
>> Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more
>> heroic measures.

>
> Cheers,



**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should
go a long way to solving your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #18  
Old February 18th 20, 10:14 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Trevor Wilson[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

>
> **Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.


**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."

Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny
number posses harmonics of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.

Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect
you are clipping your amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of
high frequency harmonic content. And, just to shut down any myths you
may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive
high frequency harmonics if over-driven.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #19  
Old February 19th 20, 01:21 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 19/02/2020 3:45 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
> Please note the interpolations.
>
>
>> so there might be relevant info there. I'm using a very basic pre-amp with no tone controls and a certain Dynaco ST120 power amp. There is a pass-through crossover between the two taking everything below 70Hz to a 10" subwoofer as described in another post.

>
> I see that. And you mentioned that the Sub amp has a level-control. Have you tried boosting that just a bit?


Yes. I've tried boosting and dropping it. In fact I adjust it depending on source material. With
older source material it sounds better with a slight boost, with more recently recorded stuff I
drop the bass level a bit as it can become overpowering.

>>> Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.

>>
>> I've been watching auctions for good quality EQs but unfortunately anything other than used
>> gimmicky plastic 90s things (that people seem to ask new prices for) are well beyond my price range.

>
> The SE-10 I mentioned came my way for $0, as it was perceived as totally dead from the BIN (Buy-it-Now) pile at Kutztown. You will notice that the fuse is inside... and missing in the example I found. As I have my original example purchased as a kit, I do not need two. So, to you it would be cost-of-shipping, not inconsiderable.


Thanks for the kind offer.

>>> The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.

>
> Getting back to your sub-amp. I am assuming that it is strapped for a single output at 300 watts into 4 ohms.


320 watts into 4 ohms and 200 watts into 8.

> For the record, driving 2N3773s in that configuration to 300 watts is wildly optimistic. Much as one *can* operate a Ford Focus engine at 6,000 RPM - just not for very long.


It uses three pairs of 2SK1058 / 2SJ162 TO-3P power MOSFETs.

> All that aside, I also understand that particular amp sometimes has a problem amplifying mains current hum? When I looked it up, I saw no associated power-supply (or, to be fair, no transformer) or diode/capacitor block. Just a "suggested power supply" http://home.alphalink.com.au/~cambie/PM300/PM300.htm I would also 'fix' the bias (replace the pots) for stability, once you are sure of the proper value(s). A number of US manufacturers used pots back in the day - and as the pots went open, all that magic smoke escaped. And given that device was designed c. 1980, that may be a consideration.


That's a different amplifier. Unfortunately it seems they recycled the name. The unit I'm using was
described in Electronics Australia 1995-04 and 1995-05 issues and was sold as a kitset through
Jaycar Electronis and Dick Smith Electronics in Australia and New Zealand.

The power supply uses a 300 VA toroidial transformer and has 20,000uF of capacitance on each
channel. The active crossover was previously released as a stand-alone kit (1994-09) but integrated
into the same case as the power amp in this version.

I have pdfs of the magazines but can't find them hosted on-line anywhere.

> Cutting to the chase, try playing around with the bass output levels, and keep in mind that pretty much anything below 500 HZ is non-directional in any case - such that distance between the treble source and bass source (and you) are the governing factors, not direction. Leading to having the bass source, ideally, the same physical distance from your ears as the treble source. Do also verify phasing - speakers out-of-phase give all sorts of unhappy effects.


Thanks. The sub is directly below the left channel (bookshelf) speaker, facing the same way. I've
tried swapping the phase and it sounds best in-phase. The output from the subwoofer is more than
enough (and I like good clean bass) so that the level control is rarely above ~85% - and that high
only with material recorded in the 70s and early 80s (such as Rickie Lee Jones' eponymous album on CD).

I rarely have the issue of half-heard fatiguing highs on older material. It's mainly on stuff
recorded after 2000 or so.

> Some "stuff" on that: https://us.kef.com/blog/how-to-get-t...nd-positioning
>
> Some further experimentation with placement may be in order.


I'm a bit limited within the space in which I use them but have experimented with toe-in and
subwoofer placement and the current set up seems optimal - except for that annoying half-heard high
frequency stuff. Maybe it's just that my age, the condition of my hearing and these otherwise
excellent speakers aren't suited together?

That would be a shame as they are by far the most revealing and best imaging speakers that I own.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #20  
Old February 19th 20, 01:28 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
>>> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the
>>> high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of
>>> the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives
>>> that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

>>
>> A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
>> frequency content.
>>
>> (I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
>> 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70
>> y/o plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

>
> **Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need to employ some room
> treatments to deal with the problem.


They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.

>>> I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room
>>> acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.
>>>
>>> Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one
>>> does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets
>>> to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are
>>> 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

>>
>> I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it
>> would be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
>> computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

>
> **Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka: Clipping)? If so, then all bets
> are off. You may need an amplifier with more output Voltage capability.


It's not clipping. I've tried different power amps and the problem is with the speakers.

>> I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are.
>> It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc.
>> from a home office.
>>
>>> Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they
>>> have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is
>>> more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to
>>> relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar
>>> so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

>>
>> The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
>> crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
>> crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W MOSFET
>> amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.

>
> **You're an Aussie then?


I live in South Auckland.

>> I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
>> preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs
>> seem to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.
>>
>> The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
>> It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
>> compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
>> fine with that.
>>
>>> Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.

>
>
> **Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should go a long way to solving
> your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.


Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am 'under the sword' - the property
could be sold to developers at any time and I'll need to find somewhere else to live. (It's been
that way since the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.) So I'm not
that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments. More pressing is selling the
surplus-to-requirements speakers and old Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
 




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