Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Sampo Kolkki
 
Posts: n/a
Default Braun CSV-60 again



ref: the previous line of this amp

So now I got officially sued on intentionally prolonging the time of the
repair, intentionally "not having been reached when the customer wanted",
and finally intentionally braking the amp myself. So the ex friend of mine
claims, that I broke the "xxx" amp for just the fun of it! And this all was
for repairing an amp "without a fee, just “for the fun of it, only the parts
should be payed".

I will keep you posted, the court hearing (and the apparent desicion) will
be in the 17th of Nov. I will tell ya all what'd happened then.

I thank everyone, that has posted me your opinions.

Sampo


  #2   Report Post  
Fabio Berutti
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I thought it was a bad Italian (or maybe American) habit to take people to a
court for any minimal argument, it's sad to see that Northern Europe has
been infected too. I suppose lawyers will cost as a brand new, top quality
unit... not including the cost sustained by the State to provide a judge, a
court and so on, which will be in turn paid in taxes.
In similar cases people should be forced by the law to find an agreement
without wasting courts' time.

Try not to worry and not to loose Your spirit for such a minimal (but
annoying) problem.

Ciao

Fabio


"Sampo Kolkki" ha scritto nel messaggio
...


ref: the previous line of this amp

So now I got officially sued on intentionally prolonging the time of the
repair, intentionally "not having been reached when the customer wanted",
and finally intentionally braking the amp myself. So the ex friend of mine
claims, that I broke the "xxx" amp for just the fun of it! And this all

was
for repairing an amp "without a fee, just “for the fun of it, only the

parts
should be payed".

I will keep you posted, the court hearing (and the apparent desicion) will
be in the 17th of Nov. I will tell ya all what'd happened then.

I thank everyone, that has posted me your opinions.

Sampo




  #3   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Sampo Kolkki" said:

ref: the previous line of this amp


So now I got officially sued on intentionally prolonging the time of the
repair, intentionally "not having been reached when the customer wanted",
and finally intentionally braking the amp myself. So the ex friend of mine
claims, that I broke the "xxx" amp for just the fun of it! And this all was
for repairing an amp "without a fee, just “for the fun of it, only the parts
should be payed".


I will keep you posted, the court hearing (and the apparent desicion) will
be in the 17th of Nov. I will tell ya all what'd happened then.


I thank everyone, that has posted me your opinions.


I can't believe it.
Best of luck with this utterly useless excercise.
Let's hope that the judge has some common sense and reject this case
beforehand.

At least you now know what your "friendship" was worth him.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."
  #6   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sampo Kolkki wrote:


ref: the previous line of this amp


So now I got officially sued on intentionally prolonging the time of the
repair, intentionally "not having been reached when the customer wanted",
and finally intentionally braking the amp myself. So the ex friend of mine
claims, that I broke the "xxx" amp for just the fun of it! And this all was
for repairing an amp "without a fee, just “for the fun of it, only the parts
should be payed".


I will keep you posted, the court hearing (and the apparent desicion) will
be in the 17th of Nov. I will tell ya all what'd happened then.


I thank everyone, that has posted me your opinions.


Sampo



I missed the start of this thread ( once worked at Braun and CSV-60
was one of the items i repaired)

What happened ?


--
Peter Håkanson
IPSec Sverige ( At Gothenburg Riverside )
Sorry about my e-mail address, but i'm trying to keep spam out,
remove "icke-reklam" if you feel for mailing me. Thanx.
  #7   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sampo Kolkki wrote:
ref: the previous line of this amp

So now I got officially sued on intentionally prolonging the time of the
repair, intentionally "not having been reached when the customer wanted",
and finally intentionally braking the amp myself. So the ex friend of mine
claims, that I broke the "xxx" amp for just the fun of it! And this all was
for repairing an amp "without a fee, just “for the fun of it, only the parts
should be payed".

I will keep you posted, the court hearing (and the apparent desicion) will
be in the 17th of Nov. I will tell ya all what'd happened then.

I thank everyone, that has posted me your opinions.

Sampo


Want to restore your friendship, let your friend withdraw the case and
compensate him eventually with this one?

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...78969 89&rd=1

it is not a csv-60, though. But this csv-13 has been nicely refurbished.

Walther
  #8   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther said:

Want to restore your friendship, let your friend withdraw the case and
compensate him eventually with this one?


http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...78969 89&rd=1


it is not a csv-60, though. But this csv-13 has been nicely refurbished.


In case the "friend" wants to pursue the suit, the asking price isn't
gonna help him.........600 euros for this amp is quite steep if you
ask me.
But as some RAT poster pointed out recently, going prices these days
are determined by Ebay.

Recently I saw a Radford SC22/STA25 combo in original (mint) condition
for sale here. Asking price? 1200 euros. Sold in one day............

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
  #9   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sander deWaal wrote:
Walther said:


Want to restore your friendship, let your friend withdraw the case and
compensate him eventually with this one?



http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...78969 89&rd=1



it is not a csv-60, though. But this csv-13 has been nicely refurbished.



In case the "friend" wants to pursue the suit, the asking price isn't
gonna help him.........600 euros for this amp is quite steep if you
ask me.


Yep, quite a lot. Why look for the holy grail? I already _got_ me one.

But I understand the sensation an accidental loss of a CSV-60 may cause,
at least to an enthusiast that knows about its value - which is not
possible to count in cash alone. That“s not everything to a collector!

IMO, btw., one has to access it“s real value with the _ears_ only.

But as some RAT poster pointed out recently, going prices these days
are determined by Ebay.

Recently I saw a Radford SC22/STA25 combo in original (mint) condition
for sale here. Asking price? 1200 euros. Sold in one day............


Impressive! I missed that... and, btw., am not going to sell mine ;-).

For determination of prices through ebay - I found out that high end
equipment goes much higher in Europe than in the US. Maybe the old
continent has more buyers or more serious listeners.

But this is for contemporary gear only - on the other hand, there are e.
g. very few Braun amps over there in the US - it seems they were mainly
sold at home. A european vintage amp reimport biz would not flourish
like one with sportscars from california :-(.

Walther
  #10   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther said:

But I understand the sensation an accidental loss of a CSV-60 may cause,
at least to an enthusiast that knows about its value - which is not
possible to count in cash alone. ThatĀ“s not everything to a collector!


Well, I was never attracted to old tube gear for its collectability.
Except maybe for the Quad II, which is IMO one of the few older amps
one can use without design modifications.
Adding a good cinch receptacle is necessary though.

I'm a heathen. If I ever would buy a Braun, Leak, Radford or any other
old amp, I'd modify the heck out of them!
Probably only use the transformers :-)

IMO, btw., one has to access itĀ“s real value with the _ears_ only.


Yep, we're in agreement here.

Recently I saw a Radford SC22/STA25 combo in original (mint) condition
for sale here. Asking price? 1200 euros. Sold in one day............


Impressive! I missed that... and, btw., am not going to sell mine ;-).


It was on Dutch Marktplaats.nl, some kind of Ebay but without teh
feedback.

For determination of prices through ebay - I found out that high end
equipment goes much higher in Europe than in the US. Maybe the old
continent has more buyers or more serious listeners.


I noted that prices in Germany are in general higher than in the
Netherlands.
A friend of mine sold some McIntosh gear partly in Germany and partly
in Holland.
The German buyers offered about twice the amount the Dutch did.
No surprise, huh? :-)

But this is for contemporary gear only - on the other hand, there are e.
g. very few Braun amps over there in the US - it seems they were mainly
sold at home. A european vintage amp reimport biz would not flourish
like one with sportscars from california :-(.


Well, there are some Dynacos that crossed the Atlantic, but there's
the power transformer problem.
The trannies are intended for 60 Hz use so core saturation is a
problem with those already underspecced transformers.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "


  #11   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sander deWaal wrote:

If I ever would buy a Braun, Leak, Radford or any other
old amp, I'd modify the heck out of them!
Probably only use the transformers :-)

....but what for? You mean you could easily improve the sound?
Of a Braun, Leak or Radford (once famed to be better than Quad)?
Better built your own amo, the transformers are still available.
IĀ“d like to hear the difference if there is one...


IMO, btw., one has to access itĀ“s real value with the _ears_ only.



Yep, we're in agreement here.


Walther
  #12   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther said:

If I ever would buy a Braun, Leak, Radford or any other
old amp, I'd modify the heck out of them!
Probably only use the transformers :-)


...but what for? You mean you could easily improve the sound?
Of a Braun, Leak or Radford (once famed to be better than Quad)?
Better built your own amo, the transformers are still available.
IĀ“d like to hear the difference if there is one...


You bet there are differences.
Since the 1950s, many new approaches to amplifier design were
developed (SRPP, OTL/Circlotron etc).
Not to mention better components like caps and resistors.

Usually, when an old amp falls into my hands, and it's not a
collectable, I strip it entriley, and mostly only the trannies are
used for new projects.

SETAs is an entirely different subject, I mostly build PP amps.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
  #13   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sander deWaal wrote:

You bet there are differences.
Since the 1950s, many new approaches to amplifier design were
developed (SRPP, OTL/Circlotron etc).
Not to mention better components like caps and resistors.


Sander,

I understand that point. But as I found out, back in 1975 there
was a big contest in a british hifi magazine for expensive amps.

Both the amps and the testers were from the who-is-who of the
high end hifi amp scene, but the magazine covertly added some
candidates from an earlier epoch - one of which was the STA-25.

To everyoneĀ“s big surprise it clearly won that competition.

Usually, when an old amp falls into my hands, and it's not a
collectable, I strip it entriley, and mostly only the trannies are
used for new projects.


Good idea, but IĀ“ll better leave my STA-25 untouched.

Instead IĀ“d like to build me a copy of it with state-of-the-art
components... and I of course would like to know if there has been
significant progress in tube valve amp circuitry design since 1975!

Earlier I had the idea of an improved CSV-60 clone which has been
suggested somewhere on the net - but now the STA-25 looks like a
better platform to me.

SETAs is an entirely different subject, I mostly build PP amps.


I must confess IĀ“m a total rookie... I thought of doing a layout
for a STA-25 clone PCB, add some ground layers and shielding.

Maybe IĀ“d better keep this for myself until I got it working...
Want to suggest improvements? Go ahead: walther at in4tec dot de.

Regards

Walther

  #14   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther said:

I understand that point. But as I found out, back in 1975 there
was a big contest in a british hifi magazine for expensive amps.


Both the amps and the testers were from the who-is-who of the
high end hifi amp scene, but the magazine covertly added some
candidates from an earlier epoch - one of which was the STA-25.
To everyoneĀ“s big surprise it clearly won that competition.


Doesn't surprise me.
But don't forget that there are mainly 2 ways of thinking in amplifier
land:
#1. The "straight-wire-with-gain" adepts (objective thinking) , of
which Radford and Quad are fine examples, and
#2. Those looking for "pleasant' tube sound, whatever that may be.
That's entirely subjective thinking.
It mostly boils down to a certain amount of 2nd order harmonics, as to
be expected when using SET amps or unbalanced PP amps.
Back in '75, the race for ever lower distortion figures (THD
amplitude, not harmonic spectrum) was going on.
Remember Luxman with 0.0001% THD?

The reason why I'm modifying or even rebuilding old amplifiers, or
even creating new designs with old trannies, is that I'm not a Walker
follower. I respect the POV of Walker, Radford et al, but one must
realize that within the technical and commercial boundaries of their
time, they just were looking for low distortion only.

These days, most tube users acknowledge that there's more to this
subkect than just distortion and high NFB rates.
The spectrum of the generated harmonics is way more important than
just the amplitude of harmonics.
With this, other factors come into play, like IMD, side effects to
global NFB, bandwidth, power supply design etc.

These days, components are of far better quality than ever.
It is most certain that building a "new" tube amplifier of ancient
design with modern components, perhaps adding solid state circuitry
for protection and supply stabilization, will lead to an amplifier
that measures better and sounds better than the original.

We're in a position that not one of the famous designers was before,
that we have a history of designing where we can choose whatever
circuittry or components to reach our goal.
Imagine that Walker or Radford could have used modern day solid state,
do you think they'd bother with glassware anymore?

Usually, when an old amp falls into my hands, and it's not a
collectable, I strip it entriley, and mostly only the trannies are
used for new projects.


Good idea, but IĀ“ll better leave my STA-25 untouched.


I'd probably do the same, because a radford STA25 is a collectible,
and will keep its value over time.
However, there are dozens of other amps from the '60s , like the
Lafayette, Bocama, Wenbley, Sansui types that would benefit enormously
from a comlete overhaul.
The transformers in said amps are sometimes of very good quality,
something that the old design couldn't ref;ect in any way.
Example: Philips HF309. EL84 PP monoblocks with ECC83 phase splitter.
The transformers, AD9058 UL tapped, have a bandwidth of over 100 kHz.
The Philips amps barely cover 25Hz...30 kHz.
When used with say a pair of 2A3 in PP, a very good and still low cost
PP triode amp can be had that puts out 10...15 watt (comparable to
EL84). Without global NFB, bandwidth may extend to 80 kHz -3dB.
The 2A3 puts out some 2nd harmonics, but very few 3rd and other odd
harmonics. Because of the PP topology, even order harminics are
cancelled out when the tubes are properly matched.
So, we have about 0.3 % THD up to half power *without* any NFB added.
When NFB is applied, the figure goes down even further.

One of the main advantages of zero NFB is that the distortion rises
slowly with increasing power, and some headroom is present for peak
signals.
A penthode amplifier with heavy doses of NFB, like the Radford, will
have lower THD, but reaches a brick wall at max. power.
This is something that Peter Walker did netter IMHO: the power reserve
of a Quad II is about 40 watts, while it is just specified as a 15
watt amp (in 16 ohms!).
The Quad II is in fact a class B design, but due to the specific
output ransformer circuit (cathode feedback windings, a form lof
*local* feedback) without the particular class B disadvantages.
McIntosh amps sport a similar transformer.
Nowadays, Audio Research follows an even simpler route by using the
secondary winding as a cathode feedback path.

Instead IĀ“d like to build me a copy of it with state-of-the-art
components... and I of course would like to know if there has been
significant progress in tube valve amp circuitry design since 1975!


Tube amp circuit design stalled about 1965, perhaps even earlier.
Quad and Radford stopped making tube amps in the '70s, but the designs
are from the '50s.

Only the Japanese never forgot about tubes, and e.g. Technics designed
a fine OTL amplifier in the late '60s with special tubes 50C5 or
something.
Very rare, very expensive.

There are many newer ways to improve amplifier performance since then.
The availability of solid state may be of help as well.
Hybrid amps is another example of a topology that didn't exist until
1985 or so.

Earlier I had the idea of an improved CSV-60 clone which has been
suggested somewhere on the net - but now the STA-25 looks like a
better platform to me.


The phase splitter is probably one of the first things to look at.
IMO, the floating paraphase circuit sounds better than the ECF82
circuit of the Radford.

SETAs is an entirely different subject, I mostly build PP amps.


I must confess IĀ“m a total rookie... I thought of doing a layout
for a STA-25 clone PCB, add some ground layers and shielding.


I'm not a fan of PCBs in tube amps.
Not simple to change something, and it is said that PCBs destroy the
sound. Something I haven't heard, but people like Menno vanderVeen did
research about that and found out that point to point wiring is almost
always the better option.

Maybe IĀ“d better keep this for myself until I got it working...
Want to suggest improvements? Go ahead: walther at in4tec dot de.


I'd figure we'd keep this in the group, so that others can join in and
we all might learn something! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
  #15   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sampo Kolkki wrote:
ref: the previous line of this amp


[...snip...]

have a look at this ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=3849551021

at least an answer to the "what is a CSV-60 worth today" question.

Walther


  #16   Report Post  
Walther
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther wrote:
Sampo Kolkki wrote:

ref: the previous line of this amp



[...snip...]

have a look at this ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=3849551021

at least an answer to the "what is a CSV-60 worth today" question.

Walther


another one!

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=3853072491
  #17   Report Post  
Sander deWaal
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Walther said:

have a look at this ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=3849551021


at least an answer to the "what is a CSV-60 worth today" question.


another one!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=3853072491


Well, it *is* a beauty to behold!
Note that the asking price is nowhere near the amount the "friend" of
mr. Kolkki wants to see....................

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Q: Value of a Braun CSV-60 Sampo Kolkki Vacuum Tubes 9 September 30th 04 06:06 PM
FS: Braun / ADS L-810 Speakers $250 (NC Pickup only) unc80 Marketplace 0 July 15th 04 12:06 AM
FS: Braun / ADS L-810 Speakers $250 (NC Pickup only) unc80 Marketplace 0 July 15th 04 12:06 AM
FS: Vintage Braun (ADS) L810 Speakers - NC pickup unc80 Marketplace 0 June 16th 04 09:44 PM
FS: Vintage Braun L810 Speakers (NC pickup only) unc80 Marketplace 2 May 18th 04 07:12 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:08 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"